I am going to ask my two psychiatrists that I work with about this, but I'm curious to see what you think. I walk briskly 4 miles in an hour every day as well, and I'm very active. I haven't felt this good since I started taking lithium, and I realized that my depression lifted when I started drinking that amount of water 9 months ago; at the same time I started to taper my dose of lithium as well, so I wonder if there's a connection between my depression lifting and the lowered dose of lithium. Thanks for any insights you can give me!
Lithium - I drink a gallon of water a day, will this intake dilute the effect of lithium?
Question posted by Muskingum on 20 Nov 2012
Last updated on 21 November 2012
Answers
endlessPred
21 Nov 2012
Hello a lot of interesting points were brought up. I did generalize about lithium withdrawal because most people who taper without a physician do as you said, they trigger a manic reaction. When done in cooperation with the psychiatrist it could go well. And if not, can be reevaluated and changed. So thanks for the more detailed explanation.
I studied biology, comparative anatomy, microbiology and psychology. I have a lot of background in science and never stopped learning. Always something new to work with. The whole topic on RNA has become very interesting as they started mapping the genome. My disease actually is a dysfunction in RNA replication production of enzymes in the ribosome. There is failure there and the cell dies. My muscle cells die. Might be a rare virus, if you are familiar with virus replication, might be genetic mutation. Story still out on this. As there are numerous types of muscular dystrophy (over 125) this falls somewhere within that category.
I was talking to a friend, internist physician, who said that mania is so hard to treat because most people don't want to deal with rising mania or deep depression. they get stuck. to handle the changes and be careful I applaud anyone who handles this well. It takes real awareness and control of self to regulate and learn methods to control ones feelings and impulses. Working with a therapist can help with changing ways to handle stress, triggers and recognition of a change. Family support is essential as well.
Glad to hear of this resource and hope that anyone dealing with this condition reads it. It certainly isn't everyone's solution as you say, but it can give insight. Insight causes change. Change helps find new.
I am very happy you have brought this information out further. I await to hear what others think about this. Thanks for your information. Stay strong. Karen
Muskingum
21 Nov 2012
Honestly, Karen, I am waiting for someone to flame me about my posts here as what I write seems to flip people out so much! I was in a internet forum called "Crazymeds" (the name should have tipped me off) and when I discussed the above issues, I was kicked off it! Bizarre... anyway, I digress! :))
It has taken me over twenty years to recognize when subtle hypomania comes on - I know all too well when my depression manifests, and also mania. It is the mania that scares me - I did experience the grandiose thoughts, which were fun, but then the racing thoughts and no sleep for many nights became way to much and when the mixed state happened - well, to this day I am amazed I made it through that. This past year I discovered that I was originally diagnosed with bipolar II almost 20 years ago and given Paxil. These days that wouldn't happen; also I keep reading that when someone with bipolar is given an antidepressant then mania can be triggered.
I think that what happened to me totally messed me up! I'll be back - my five-year-old is waking up! Thanks again for your wonderful remarks and positive support as well. I totally appreciate it! :)))) have a good day!!!
endlessPred
21 Nov 2012
Enjoy the day. Crazy can appear anywhere. Some people are slower to change their point of view than others. We can always hope they see the light. Of course, some get blinded when they are stubborn. Hope your holiday is fun and yummy. Karen
Muskingum
21 Nov 2012
I love that: "Crazy can appear anywhere" - oh yes! Well said!
I hope with all my heart that my kids don't have bipolar and that a true cure is discovered in our lifetimes! From some recent reading (And youtubes with noneother than Margot Kidder and John Gray!) I've learned about orthomolecular medicine as a "cure" for bp, but frankly I'm overwhelmed by all the info.! Last week I got a book about it called "Natural Healing for Bipolar Disorder' online which is basically the orthomolecular approach, so I'll read it and see. (And hopefully not weep!)
Muskingum
21 Nov 2012
P.S. It's easy to get "crazy" with taking supplements too - and paying lots of non-traditional doctors fancy fees. What I like about Dr. Liz is that her approach is not complex - it's common sense, really. I still know that I'm playing Russian Roulette with my decision, but it's my body at the end of the day, and my mental state - no one else's.
endlessPred
21 Nov 2012
Would be interested in your research. You can always write again or send me a private message. Keep on healing! Karen
Muskingum
21 Nov 2012
Hey Karen, I wanted to give you my private email somehow and just added you as a friend - I'm new to this site and am still figuring it out! It wouldn't let me send you a msg just now but I'll try again!
Also, the new psychiatrist I met with today said that the gallon a day of water could definitely lower the lithium in my system - it is a salt, after all. Wow! I really think that my drinking lots of water for the past 11 months has lowered the level the whole time and that's why the depression lifted in part. It's a theory, anyway! ;)
endlessPred
21 Nov 2012
Very interesting with the water. Good to learn something new. It is a slat but I. Didn't know the kidneys would handle it that way. Well at least that explains why people can have a difficult time controlling levels. I will send you a message.
Muskingum
21 Nov 2012
Great! I'll check! :))
endlessPred
21 Nov 2012
Hello muskingum, Water does not affect medications effectiveness although it is important to drink enough to be sure it doesn't stick in your throat. It does affect removing toxins from disease, injury, illness and regular metabolic process. It also keeps the body hydrated. Too much water can be a problem. A gallon a day is about as much as you should do unless you are exercising heavily. Then increase only a bit.
Exercise helps with your condition. Better nutrition also helps. Cutting down on your lithium feels better and is common for bipolar patients. It doesn't mean you should do so without help from the psychiatrist. Too low and you will enter a manic stage. Yes, you will feel good, manic good. Do a check on your behavior and be sure you are in a good place with money, Activities, relationships and such. Please see your psychiatrist soon. The holidays are coming and I am sure being present is going to be important.
Let me know how you are doing. Karen
Muskingum
21 Nov 2012
Hi Karen! Thanks so much for your reply. Water intake can affect certain tests, such as pregnancy. When I was pregnant I had a false negative as I had a lot of water the day the test was taken, and it threw off the results!
Re: bipolar disorder. I have consulted with Dr. Liz Miller, a world-renowned neurologist and also a woman who was diagnosed with bipolar disorder & has lived life without any bipolar episode for almost 15 years med-free. She wrote a book called "Mood Mapping" that is very helpful in managing mood disorders of all types. After being in touch with Dr. Miller and doing *tons* of research for several years,I've made the choice to try life without lithium medication. I will use other holistic modalities to manage my bipolar disorder. Obviously this is a huge decision and there are definite risks of relapse and hospitalization. If I taper off lithium too quickly, there is a risk of manic relapse.
There are recent studies that have proved this. Please see Dr. Liz Miller's blog for more information. You can do a general search on the internet for her, as I am not allowed to post links here. Moreover, after reading Robert Whitaker's "Anatomy of an Epidemic" and Dr. Peter Breggin's "Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal" and consulting with my psychiatrist who believes that some people can live stable, safe lives med-free, I am going to give this a shot. This was an enormous decision, obviously, and I do not tell others to do what I am attempting to do - I have thought about doing this for many, many years and I don't make this decision lightly, to say the least. There is the very real risk that if I remain on lithium the rest of my life, my kidneys can fail and also my thyroid. I realize what I am writing is highly charged and controversial, but I have come to the profound realization that not all of us need to stay on meds forever. I used to think quite differently than that, so I can understand where you are coming from. As a professional freelance writer and college graduate, I have interviewed such bipolar luminaries as Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison, who has remarked many times how lithium has saved her life and she will take it forever. I totally get that. I have an advance directive-style plan in place with my doctors and family that if I become hypomanic, manic or depressed I will return to traditional medication. I know right away when I become hypomanic or depressed. I don't expect you to agree with me, and I hope you can respect my choice. I have found other likeminded people on internet communities such as Icarus Project and Beyond Meds. I wish you the best and take care.
Muskingum
21 Nov 2012
Karen, I'd also be interested to know how you found out about how water affects our systems? Are you a health professional? Any studies you can refer us to? Just curious... I am an American Council on Exercise-certified personal trainer and I have a B.A> degree from the University of California and a general fitness background, but I am the first to admit that I don't know everything about health! I have the highest regard for doctors, which is why I am currently meeting with two psychiatrists and an M.F.T. (marriage and family therapist) as I taper off lithium.
I don't think that cutting down on lithium always feels better - I think it's a highly individual reaction, and we are all calibrated so differently. I grew up with a father who was diagnosed with bipolar at age 18; I was diagnosed at age 37. No one thought I had bipolar until I hit 37, as I lost sleep for two nights when giving birth, and that threw me into mania. Interestingly, while growing up my Dad was ***prescribed*** to do his own sleep-deprivation in order to trigger mania and get him out of depressions! He was told to do that by psychiatrists affiliated with UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Institute. He did not respond to ECT, I did. I feel that making generalizations does a disservice to us all unless we can cite specific, credible studies done by medical professionals. My psychiatrist, who is double Board-certified, advocates meds strongly, and she has a great reputation here, but she also believes that some patients with bipolar disorder can live life successfully without medication. Believe me, I know how radical that sounds.
I would also like to add below Dr. Liz Miller's advice to me in terms of my decision to try life without lithium. She is famous in the U.K. and she was a featured subject of the award-winning documentary "The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive" with Stephen Fry. (You can view this series for free on Youtube and it's wonderful.)
Dr. Miller was awarded the 2008 MIND award for Mental Health Advocacy - MIND is the largest non-profit mental health organization in England and it's highly respected. Here is what Dr. Miller suggested:
Hi Muskingum,
Apologies for the slow reply – I have been in China, and couldn’t access the website (thanks Google)
There is an article I wrote about coming off medication some time ago
in the Bipolar Association blogspot in 2009.
As far as reducing medication – it is important to get everything else right first. Medication should be the last thing to go, when you sorted out your environment, physical health, relationships, strategies and identity and hence learnt to manage your mood.
For my part, I take care of my diet, exercise lifestyle, relationships and am doing what I love! what more could I ask? I have been off meds for the last twelve years and never been happier or healthier!
Lithium gets in the clockwork! – it seems to work at the level of cell messenger RNA. J Baldessarini did some studies that showed if you stopped lithium suddenly – 85% had a further episode within 2-3 years, compared to 30% of a control group who reduced their dose more slowly over 6 weeks. It is interesting the long lasting effects of lithium. “Effects of the Rate of Discontinuing Lithium Maintenance Treatment in Bipolar Disorders” by R.J. Baldessarini, Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 57:441-8, 1996
Many people have successfully come off lithium. My view is that reducing lithium needs to be done very slowly. Taking it down by as little as 100mg a month depending on how sensitive you are to its effects.
Ask your psychiatrist what he would do if your kidneys failed? You are asking to do whatever that might be, before your kidneys fail – so that you don’t have to go through dialysis etc. A cardinal sign of impending kidney failure is getting up in the night to pass urine, because your kidneys are losing their ability to concentrate urine. If this is the case for you, you certainly must come off lithium.
In the meantime, concentrate on a healthy life and take your time to make changes!
The Icarus project is a great website and there is a great article about coming off psychiatric medications.
Best wishes
Dr Liz
Related topics
depression, bipolar disorder, lithium
Further information
- Lithium uses and safety info
- Lithium prescribing info & package insert (for Health Professionals)
- Side effects of Lithium (detailed)
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