I've been on rather high levels of opiate pain medication for years. All are now prescribed by a legitimate Neurologist/Pain specialist, although in the past I've had a doctor with questionable morals, motives, and knowledge. Anyhow, I've always done my best to be very informed about these drugs, and since I've actually gotten off them a few times over the years, (trying to live without being a slave to medication, which didn't work) I've done a lot of research (especially after a recent episode) on Suboxone, and Subutex, which is the Bupenorphine just like Suboxone, but without the Naloxone, the "blocker". Well I once took a Subutex, (straight Bupenorphine) before coming off of the other drugs in my system (Fentanyl and Oxycodone). I was thrown into the worst withdrawl of my life, with insanely intense vomiting, diahrea, shaking, kicking, and cold sweats. I looked like I had been beat up, and had two black eyes when I was done because the vomitinig was so intense I burst all the blood vesels around my eyes, and on my face. I and nearly called 911 because I couldn't crawl to my car to drive to the ER. After doing my research I saw that Bupenorphine, and other drugs like it, like Butorphanol the active ingredient in Stadol, have such a strong binding affinity with the opiate receptors, that if you're still on high doses of other opiates, it will literally rip it off of the receptors, and block the receptors from recieving the drugs in your system, and as I mention, induce percipitated withdrawl. Moral of the story is, just because your opiate tolerance is high, it doesn't make all other opiates safe, in fact the WORST thing you could do is take SMALL doses of these other opiates, because they will replace and block whats already attached to your receptors, without giving you enough to supplement the required level to keep you out of withdrawl. In retrospect, had I taken more Subutex, I probably would have been OK, but at that moment, that was the last thing I was thinking I should do. So be careful, we all know what Suboxone can do if you take it too early, but Subutex can do it too, and so can Stadol! I had a similar experience with Stadol years ago, and just recently after this event with Bupenorphine did I realize what had happened to me. I had thought that maybe it had caused overdose since I was one high levels of other opiates, but that seemed unlikely, but was the only explanation I had for feeling so sick. Only now do I realize that was my first experience with rapidly induced withdrawl. Just be careful, and do research ON EVERYTHING before you take it, and make sure you consider all the variables of your own situation. Just because one drug worked for someone else, doesn't mean your situation is the same. I've seen too many people who have had Suboxone work for them, then reccomend someone else getting on it, WAY too soon. If you're not in withdrawl already before you get on it, it will send you there so quickly, and violently that you'll do ANYTHING to make it stop, and same goes for Subutex. That's my rant, I hope that maybe someone reads this, and it keeps them from making the same mistake I did. I wonder if anyone else here has already had a similar experience?
20 Nov 2011
I doubt you're still here but bebe522 is correct. It isn't the Naloxone that blocks other opiates, it the Bupe itself. I know this because my doc explained but also because I take pure Bupe, Subutex, and I also cannot take other opiates too close to it. What happened to you is 1 reason I get upset that dumb docs are still telling people the Naloxone is the blocker. If only you knew the truth you never would have had that bad experience.
Mickey, I have very mixed feelings about using Suboxone at this point. Even though I'm on Subutex I still have these mixed feelings. On the 1 hand Sub has all the advantages pup said it does. But it does have 2 big drawbacks they don't tell you about. I'm going to tell you and if Sub is the only way for you to go then do it. But if I was you I'd try a slow taper off what you're on first. Take all the meds that make the wd a little easier. The latest is supposed to be Zofran. This is according to my doc, I never tried it yet. He says it relieves many wds. So take Zofran and the other helpful drugs and try a slow taper program.
If you must use Suboxone just know this. We all know you can't feel a high from other opiates while on Sub, but most of us also can't feel a high from alcohol neither. This may last long after you stop Sub. We just don't know. Sub doesn't cause a tolerance to itself, but it causes a massive tolerance to other opiates. It has been suggested that this massive tolerance is just due to what the equivalency of the other opiate is to Buprenorphine. I hope so. It has also been suggested that Bupe stays in the system long after you quit taking it and that's why you can't feel a high off alcohol or opiates long after stopping Bupe. This would also explain why you have a high resistance to other opiates after quitting Bupe. I don't know if this is true. I hope it is. And exactly how long does Bupe stay in you after stopping it is unknown. It has been suggested that it stays in you a proportionate amount of time to how long you took it. But what that means we don't know. But these are the 2 drawbacks to Sub I know of. On the plus side it may also help with depression if you feel depressed. So if you decide to use it just be aware of all this. If you have to abruptly stop Sub due to surgery or an accident you will need a lot of something else to kill the pain.
I wish you the best.
9 Jan 2011
Thanks for that story klaatu, many people are confused about the naloxone in the suboxone. They think that it's the naloxone that causes the precipitated withdraw's... but as you learned 1st hand... it's not. I am glad you're ok now. Buprenorphine has improved my life 100% percent and i will stay on it as long as i have to. Therapy is working much better for me now that i don't have cravings to fight all the time. Someday i will be drug free--- but for now, I am happy with the suboxone. Good luck to you... i hope you are pain free and happy!
25 Nov 2011
i sent u a question in private but im getting suboxone i hope on tuesday.i
2 questions how much do u recomend i take if im taking 130 to 150 mgs a day oxycodone?wats cheaper tabs or strips? and did you say wait 24 hours after my last dose of [percs? thats where im most confused im depending on ths website for my recovery.youve given me faith.
8 Nov 2011
Hello. First off I'd like to.say thanks to everyone who commented on this post. I am 24 years old and been addicted to opioids for over half of my life. I have been in opiate replacement therapy for almost 4 years. I first started out on 35mgs of suboxone daily. I still to this day remember VERY well, the 3 days before my induction phase. I wanted to die because of the wds! I felt absolutely wonderful after my dr. administered the 1st dose of suboxone. But that isn't what I'd like to talk about. What I wanna share is my experience rapidly switching back& forth between bupre and oxycodone. On a side note, I just wanna say that my experiences were quite different from those posted. First: out of pure stupidity, I took suboxone through IV and never once had withdrawal or sickness. It only caused it after maybe the 4th or 5th time. Naturally, after it did happen I put a stop to it.
During the 1st year of suboxone treatment, I wasn't entirely ready to quit my opiate abuse. I would regularly jump from subs to oxy or M.S. and than back again w/o ANY adverse reaction. Next: over the last 2yrs I've been on subutex. In my opinion subutex has helped me get "clean". Along with the most valuable part of my recovery, going to a 12 step program. I feel like everyone who is prescribed bupre. should be required to attend some type of therapy or program. (Just a personal opinion) anyway, I have never experienced any of the events discussed on this board. I'm not quite sure why, but its just not happened to me. I suppose I've done absolutely everything I possibly could that should've made me sick, but no dice. I'm in no way writing this to show off or gloat, but I simply thought I should share my own experiences sense they are almost opposite of those posted here. Thanx to all who posted on here.
P.s. I apologize for the messiness of my post, I'm currently going through some very serious personal problems and my mind is scattered from here to the moon.
4 May 2012
I am not responding to the warning above so much as I am asking if anyone taking Subutex/suboxone has gotten mouth sores. I was only taking 4-8mg of subutex and my mouth and throat broke out in lesions. I couldn't eat at all for several days... it felt as though I had been swallowing razor blades! It took being completely off the stuff for three days before the sores subsided. I stopped doing them sublingually to avoid the pain and they worked ok, not as well and it does say on the packaging to not to swallow, but I didn't want the detox. Now I can't seem to get off the stuff. It lasts for about three days and then the withdrawal becomes strong enough where I will swallow 1mg or so and then go another three days, ad nauseaum. Anyone have the same experience with the mouth sores? My doc gave me some ativan and clonidine to help me through the detox, but I am so miserable, I take just 1-2 mg and I'm better... then three days later...
7 Oct 2011
I had a similar experience. I had been taking norco 10/325 and MS Contin 30 mg 3 times a day. My doctor who had prescribed those pain meds turned around and gave me a script for that Butran pain patch whose main med is Bupenepherine, without instructing me to stop the oral meds for a few days which was necessary. Within 18 hours I was thrown into precipitated withdrawals that were pure agony. If death had been an option I would have gladly chose it. I had to be taken to the ER where the patch was immediately discontinued and I was given a shot of Dilaudid to get my pain somewhat back into control. Yes I feel my dr messed up but I know all about Bup, Suboxone, Subutex. I never thought twice about it for some reason. Being aware of possible side effects is crucial when starting or changing meds, especially while on narcotics. Know your meds!
20 Nov 2011
Hi KLAATU my name is mickey or mik934, you seem to know alot about this issue. i have been on pain meds for 7yrs and have never made it past the 3 day mark due to such bad withdrawls, my pain meds i have been on are Perks 10/325s about 10 to 14 a day as well as norcos 10/325s 10 to 14 a day as well both together. i am no longer on oxcy.. I want to get off both pain meds as they are destroying my life and i think id rather be in the pain then live like this.. if i quit cold turkey do you think i could die or will the withdrawls just be hell for several weeks till i start to feel better? Thank you for your help if you can!! Your friend Mickey from chicago.. God Bless..
11 Jun 2012
Yes I had similar exp. with suboxone which I am on day 5 off after being on it 3months. Went to sub. dr. on a Sat. 9AM. He asked when I done last oxys and I truefully told him 6AM. He said to wait till 6pm then take prescribed dose of subs. Not long enough into wd and thats for sure. Got sick as a dog all night long, luckily he works his suboxone patients on weekends and I got ahold of him 1st thing Sun. morning and he upped dose and then I started feeling better.
10 Jun 2012
does anyone know how long they need to be off the other narcotics before taking the Stadol NS? If you take a higher does of the Stadol will it take the place of the other Narcotics? with Stadol being counter indicated in my medical care does anyone know anything that would replace it for migraines?
PLEASE HELP I THINK MY DR IS STUPID(and im being nice)he always ask well what do you think will help you? the hell if i know i thats what i pay you for him for!
7 Jan 2011
Ive done it twice by accident too. Its absolute living hell. Both times I thought I was into withdrawals enough but I most definitely wasnt. The first time I decided to take a Sub at night and go straight to sleep and hope by morning Id be feeling better, boy was I wrong. It woke me up instantly when it kicked in a short time later and I literally thought I was having a nightmare cause Ive never woke up and felt that bad instantly. I dont wish precipitated withdrawals on my worst enemy. Its the worst feeling Ive ever experienced in my 30 years here on earth.
4 May 2012
I just took 2mg of subutex for chtonic pain. It made me feel tired but unable to sleep and nauseated. I never really took opiates for long or regularly. They made me sick. We tried them all. I had taken 10 mg of Vicodin 3 days ago. And none the week before that. Im wondering if that is a milder version of whats happened to me. Im not so sure I will take any more of this one.
20 Nov 2011
Hi Klaatu... thank you for the informative exerpt on these drugs. And yes I agree with whomever made the comment about WHY did your doc NOT tell u that precip wd would happen if u r not first in moderate withdrawal from the other opiates. Shame on him.
Yes these drugs are categorized under the agonist/antagonist classification. They are agonistic bcuz they relieve Pain at the mu opiate receptor site. Conversley they are antagonistic because they kick the other opiate off the receptor site and attach on. They are actually used sometimes in the place of naloxone to treat opiate overdosage. It is unfortunate that some docs do not know this and unfortunately what happened to u then occurs. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and insight.
Mik... no you cannot die from cold turkey... you may feel like u want to die but nothing life threatening occurs like the DTs in alcohol wd. Now. That being said, I am sure that there have been some unnecessary deaths occur in hard core addicts who rapidly come off of, say heroin, for example. These people are usually malnourished, dehydrated, and cachectic and I am sure that some of them may have died due to some of the complications aforementioned.
I personally think that buprenorphine is the way to go. You really don't need that much and it very gently allows you to get off the other opiates without those terrible wd symptoms. In addition it allows your brain to get rid of all of those extra receptor sites that were sprouted during the excessive opiate usage. Buprenorphine is NOT an "up regulating" drug, therefore it does not cause your body to produce more receptor sites. You can conceivably b on the same dose of buprenorphine for a long time without ever having to increase the dosage. The brain also then begins to reboot itself after a while and starts again producing its own natural opiates, endorphins.
So this is why I am a pro suboxone kind of girl. It has certainly helped me.
Good luck in whatever u decide to do. There are others here who HAVE gone cold turkey successfully. Some have used the Thomas recipe and other methods like using Clonidine. It can be done successfully also. Pick which method u want and go for it. I know you have a lot of pain issues Mic... I certainly hope that you have thought through this carefully. I DO know what u mean by saying that u r a slave to the drug.
We will be with you very step of the way.
Good luck my friend and thank you
Klaatu for sharing your excerpt on the agonist/antagonistic drugs. Pup
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