Suboxone is a scam

[ChrisNev]

Facts:

It's a narcotic controlled substance that will show up on background checks
It's addictive and habit forming
It's expensive
The withdrawal symptoms are as severe if not more severe than all the mainstream painkillers.

I know from experience being on vicodin, tramadol (ultram) for 5 years, and Suboxone for over a year.

Suboxone is deceptively marketed as a cure for painkiller addiction. What drug company wants customers to use their product for a brief period and then never use it again? My suboxone doctor would have kept me on it for years, with no attempts to get me to lower my dose.

Everyone that is taking suboxone praises it. I know I did. It gave me that euphoric high and sense of well being. People like suboxone because they get to feel like they are taking a step towards being off painkillers, and yet not have to face the reality of withdrawal, until they decide to end their suboxone treatment.

Its a more convenient and socially acceptable version of Methadone. Potentially suitable for someone who has been taking high doses of heroin or other hard street drugs, as means to be free of committing felonies, but complete overkill and unsuitable for people taking subscription painkillers. Even for someone who was taking 30 pills a day like I was.


My personal advice to those who want to get off painkillers?

1) Slowly taper the dosage of what you are taking now. If possible, have a relative or friend distribute the pills to you.

2) Cold turkey (using the thomas recipe) and tough it out for a week.

3) Professional Rehabilitation

Dont even bother with taking suboxone. You're simply trading one addiction for another. Don't buy into its marketing BS. I will not be surprised if they receive a class action lawsuit in the near future, just like Oxycontin is dealing with now, and the 634 million dollars they are coughing up.

The true step is to cease taking anything thats narcotic and addictive.

[eastcoastsunshine]

I couldn't agree more with you on the subject. I'm weening off of suboxone myself and am climbing the walls.

I have never heard of the thomas recipe, what is that?

[ChrisNev]

Below is the Thomas Recipe. A basic guide that uses cheap over the counter home remedies to help relieve withdrawal symptoms.

In my experience, the best things to do when going through withdrawal:

Long hot baths (it's like a temporary vacation from withdrawal)
Exercise (naturally stimulates endorphins)
Sex/Masturbation (also stimulates endorphins)

The Thomas Recipe for Cold Turkey Withdrawal

PLEASE NOTE: I am not a doctor, simply a long-time Rx opiate junkie who has had many opportunities to develop a way to detox. This is a recipe for at-home self-detox from opiates based on my experience as well as that of many other addicts.

It is not intended as professional medical advice. It is always wise to make sure none of the recipe ingredients or procedures conflict with medications you may be taking. Likewise, if you have any medical condition, disease, allergy or any other health issue, consult your doctor before using the recipe.

Thanks,

Thomas

THOMAS RECIPE

If you can't take time off to detox, I recommend you follow a taper regimen using your drug of choice or suitable alternate -- the slower the taper, the better.

For the Recipe, You'll need:

1. Valium (or another benzodiazepine such as Klonopin, Librium, Ativan or Xanax). Of these, Valium and Klonopin are best suited for tapering since they come in tablet form. Librium is also an excellent detox benzo, but comes in capsules, making it hard to taper the dose. Ativan or Xanax should only be used if you can't get one of the others.

2. Imodium (over the counter, any drug or grocery store).

3. L-Tyrosine (500 mg caps) from the health food store.

4. Strong wide-spectrum mineral supplement with at least 100% RDA of Zinc, Phosphorus, Copper, Magnesium and Potassium (you may not find the potassium in the same supplement).

5. Vitamin B6 caps.

6. Access to hot baths or a Jacuzzi (or hot showers if that's all that's available).

How to use the recipe:

Start the vitamin/mineral supplement right away (or the first day you can keep it down), preferably with food. Potassium early in the detox is important to help relieve RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome). Bananas are a good source of potassium if you can't find a supplement for it.

Begin your detox with regular doses of Valium (or alternate benzo). Start with a dose high enough to produce sleep. Before you use any benzo, make sure you're aware of how often it can be safely taken. Different benzos have different dosing schedules. Taper your Valium dosage down after each day. The goal is to get through day 4, after which the worst WD symptoms will subside. You shouldn't need the Valium after day 4 or 5.

During detox, hit the hot bath or Jacuzzi as often as you need to for muscle aches. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of hot soaks. Spend the entire time, if necessary, in a hot bath. This simple method will alleviate what is for many the worst opiate WD symptom.

Use the Imodium aggressively to stop the runs. Take as much as you need, as often as you need it. Don't take it, however, if you don't need it.
At the end of the fourth day, you should be waking up from the Valium and experiencing the beginnings of the opiate WD malaise. Upon rising (empty stomach), take the L-Tyrosine. Try 2000 mgs, and scale up or down, depending on how you feel. You can take up to 4,000 mgs. Take the L-Tyrosine with B6 to help absorption. Wait about one hour before eating breakfast. The L-Tyrosine will give you a surge of physical and mental energy that will help counteract the malaise. You may continue to take it each morning for as long as it helps. If you find it gives you the "coffee jitters," consider lowering the dosage or discontinuing it altogether. Occasionally, L-Tyrosine can cause the runs. Unlike the runs from opiate WD, however, this effect of L-Tyrosine is mild and normally does not return after the first hour. Lowering the dosage may help.

Continue to take the vitamin/mineral supplement with breakfast.
As soon as you can force yourself to, get some mild exercise such as walking, cycling, swimming, etc. This will be hard at first, but will make you feel considerably better.
Thomas [

[chic_in_the_trees]

Sorry to say but I had a Diluada habit. Suboxin helped me sleep. I would put 1/2 under my toungue before bed. I would use any opiate to stay well. I remember when my illness was not so bad. It definitly gets worse every time. The last one I didn't think I was going to make it and I'm convinced I haven't got another one in me. I was ill for a week. The bath tub became my best friend. Thanks for the Thomas Reciepe hope I never have to use it. Any suggestions for vomiting anything you swallow? BEWARE addicts what goes up must come down the longer your up the longer your sick.

[northerngirl]

Facts:

It's a narcotic controlled substance that will show up on background checks
It's addictive and habit forming
It's expensive
The withdrawal symptoms are as severe if not more severe than all the mainstream painkillers.

I know from experience being on vicodin, tramadol (ultram) for 5 years, and Suboxone for over a year.

Suboxone is deceptively marketed as a cure for painkiller addiction. What drug company wants customers to use their product for a brief period and then never use it again? My suboxone doctor would have kept me on it for years, with no attempts to get me to lower my dose.

Everyone that is taking suboxone praises it. I know I did. It gave me that euphoric high and sense of well being. People like suboxone because they get to feel like they are taking a step towards being off painkillers, and yet not have to face the reality of withdrawal, until they decide to end their suboxone treatment.

Its a more convenient and socially acceptable version of Methadone. Potentially suitable for someone who has been taking high doses of heroin or other hard street drugs, as means to be free of committing felonies, but complete overkill and unsuitable for people taking subscription painkillers. Even for someone who was taking 30 pills a day like I was.


My personal advice to those who want to get off painkillers?

1) Slowly taper the dosage of what you are taking now. If possible, have a relative or friend distribute the pills to you.

2) Cold turkey (using the thomas recipe) and tough it out for a week.

3) Professional Rehabilitation

Dont even bother with taking suboxone. You're simply trading one addiction for another. Don't buy into its marketing BS. I will not be surprised if they receive a class action lawsuit in the near future, just like Oxycontin is dealing with now, and the 634 million dollars they are coughing up.

The true step is to cease taking anything thats narcotic and addictive.

It may well be true that it is a scam but my personal feeling is that I can go through detox after detox and be very stong about it in the beginning but even after weeks and months of being off the drugs, I never feel "normal" and the CRAVINGS are the reason I go back to the drugs. They NEVER let up on me. I think about them everyday, even though I consider myself stong and intelligent, they control me!! The suboxone may be everything you say but since I started taking it, I have not had any CRAVINGS. Therefore, I have very little chance of relapse. Relapse is the name of the game for me. My doctor is willing to work with me on the dosage and I would rather stay on a low dose of Suboxone everyday for the rest of my life, rather than go through all the cravings and relapse. Anyone can get off drugs but staying off is what suboxone was truely designed for.

[lotabs]

chrisnev=-

i agree-just got out of treatment center where i did a "rapid taper" of 4mg on mon; 3 mg on tue; 2 mg wed; 1 mg thr; and it's now sunday and i am really, really hurting. I was mostly detoxed (<48 hours) from my drug of choice when i arrived at the treatment center. I have dextoxed from opiates many times and this maybe by far the worst!

Any one have any experience with a rapid taper? I am a mess.

Lot a BS

[SheLovesKoalas]

For me, Suboxone was life saver...... While it is true that I was on Sub's for over 4 years, the alternative was devestating.

Yes, I tried weaning, yes I tried cold turkey, yes I tried programs of recovery. Each attempt was a failure. Perhaps you say that I didn't "want it" bad enough, but for me it wasn't about wanting to get clean. It was the mental masterbation, along with the physical pain that brought me to Suboxone.

While I also agree that Sub's are expensive, the price of street oxy's far outweighed the price of the Rx.

Plus, I was no longer pacing, wondering where my next fix would come from, who I would steal money from to get that fix. I was no longer lying to my family and friends and I was thinking about someone other than me and my dealer for a change.

If they told me that I would have to stay on Sub's forever, I would have done it.

Luckily, I was able to come off of them, with the aide of my doctor and slow taper process and program that bet my methods of detoxing from oxys by a long shot.

I guess that's why they say "Different strokes for different folks." Suboxone worked for me. I have been opiate free since September of 2007 and contribute that clean time to my Suboxone use.

Amen.

[ChrisNev]

chrisnev=-

i agree-just got out of treatment center where i did a "rapid taper" of 4mg on mon; 3 mg on tue; 2 mg wed; 1 mg thr; and it's now sunday and i am really, really hurting. I was mostly detoxed (<48 hours) from my drug of choice when i arrived at the treatment center. I have dextoxed from opiates many times and this maybe by far the worst!

Any one have any experience with a rapid taper? I am a mess.

Lot a BS

I'm no doctor, but I think everyone here can agree that tapering off in 4 days is way way way too fast. Thats pretty much the same as going cold turkey.

I would taper down no less than 30 days, possibly more depending on your history and dosage.

If you are tapering off suboxone, the bummer is, that last step, when you go from taking even an eight of a pill a day, like i did, to nothing is tough. Thats the way suboxone is. Less can be more.

[ChrisNev]

It may well be true that it is a scam but my personal feeling is that I can go through detox after detox and be very stong about it in the beginning but even after weeks and months of being off the drugs, I never feel "normal" and the CRAVINGS are the reason I go back to the drugs. They NEVER let up on me. I think about them everyday, even though I consider myself stong and intelligent, they control me!! The suboxone may be everything you say but since I started taking it, I have not had any CRAVINGS. Therefore, I have very little chance of relapse. Relapse is the name of the game for me. My doctor is willing to work with me on the dosage and I would rather stay on a low dose of Suboxone everyday for the rest of my life, rather than go through all the cravings and relapse. Anyone can get off drugs but staying off is what suboxone was truely designed for.

If someone has serious chronic pain from injury, I can understand them being on painkillers permanently, but to take suboxone so you don't relapse sounds like a contradiction. You're reason for taking it is so you don't have to worry about quitting it, right?

Its now been 7 days since i've quit. I've had about 2 hours of real sleep in the past 4 days. Can barely eat. I feel cold all the time. But I can deal with that. I know the real struggle is in the long run, and not relapsing.

My biggest fear is what you said, about never being able to feel normal again without pills. I guess that depends on how long you've been on them, how well your brain receptors can readjust, and also your attitude towards having a normal lifestyle in which we earn our pleasure through real effort and accomplishment.

I am getting back some good things though that opiates took away. I have my sex drive. I no longer feel itchy all the time. I dont wake up in the morning feeling sick until I take the pill. Music affects me more. I can now focus my mind on important things that matter, like re establishing friendships. I no longer have to worry about having enough pills when I travel, appointments, and $500 a month prescription bills.

Its these things that give me hope that I can return to normal, and be the same as I was before I got on pills.

[ChrisNev]

For me, Suboxone was life saver...... While it is true that I was on Sub's for over 4 years, the alternative was devestating.

Yes, I tried weaning, yes I tried cold turkey, yes I tried programs of recovery. Each attempt was a failure. Perhaps you say that I didn't "want it" bad enough, but for me it wasn't about wanting to get clean. It was the mental masterbation, along with the physical pain that brought me to Suboxone.

While I also agree that Sub's are expensive, the price of street oxy's far outweighed the price of the Rx.

Plus, I was no longer pacing, wondering where my next fix would come from, who I would steal money from to get that fix. I was no longer lying to my family and friends and I was thinking about someone other than me and my dealer for a change.

If they told me that I would have to stay on Sub's forever, I would have done it.

Luckily, I was able to come off of them, with the aide of my doctor and slow taper process and program that bet my methods of detoxing from oxys by a long shot.

I guess that's why they say "Different strokes for different folks." Suboxone worked for me. I have been opiate free since September of 2007 and contribute that clean time to my Suboxone use.

Amen.

Ending a 4 year Suboxone stint is an accomplishment. Do you feel completely back to normal? Do you often have cravings or temptations?

[nova9sw]

How do you get relief from chronic pain then? Opiates are the only thing other than mega doses of aspirin, 5 to 10 grams a day, that help with my chronic back and neck pain. HMO's like Kaiser are running a scam now too. It's called a Chronic Pain Program with different levels. Problem is after they accept you into the program you have to wait a couple of months to start and then they refuse to let you participate in their program. All talk and no program. Steve

[lotabs]

Thanks for your advice. I have been off subox for 3 days now and it is still hell. my addicition was for around 5 months. Do you think I should go back onto the subox (as the docs have suggested) or continue the cold turkey?

If cold turkey, how long???

thanks!

[ChrisNev]

How do you get relief from chronic pain then? Opiates are the only thing other than mega doses of aspirin, 5 to 10 grams a day, that help with my chronic back and neck pain. HMO's like Kaiser are running a scam now too. It's called a Chronic Pain Program with different levels. Problem is after they accept you into the program you have to wait a couple of months to start and then they refuse to let you participate in their program. All talk and no program. Steve

I agree,for some people with chronic pain, strong opiate painkillers are their only option until someone invents a revolutionary pain management miracle.

But this is about people like me, who originally took it for something that has gone and passed, but continued taking pills because their bodies became dependent, or because they just enjoyed the high.

[ChrisNev]

Thanks for your advice. I have been off subox for 3 days now and it is still hell. my addicition was for around 5 months. Do you think I should go back onto the subox (as the docs have suggested) or continue the cold turkey?

If cold turkey, how long???

thanks!

Day 3-5 is the most acute part of withdrawal. You've gone this far, keep going! Realize that this is a very crucial time, day 3 or 4 is when people either give in and relapse because they cant take it anymore, or tough it out to the next day, and they feel better and know they can make it through.

I am on day 8, and I am well enough to go out shopping and do errands and cook for myself. I don't feel sick anymore, and i'm not suffering. No cravings or desire to take suboxone whatsoever.

[mrdoug]

chrisnev knows of what he speaks. having experiential knowledge of this insidious disease the suboxyne will turn on you before you know it. a class action is coming soon because of the disclosure on this masked drug. good stuff chris thanks //// IF you are looking for good sound advice look no further its all on right here on this thread.

[skybug]

Facts:

It's a narcotic controlled substance that will show up on background checks
It's addictive and habit forming
It's expensive
The withdrawal symptoms are as severe if not more severe than all the mainstream painkillers.

I know from experience being on vicodin, tramadol (ultram) for 5 years, and Suboxone for over a year.

Suboxone is deceptively marketed as a cure for painkiller addiction. What drug company wants customers to use their product for a brief period and then never use it again? My suboxone doctor would have kept me on it for years, with no attempts to get me to lower my dose.

Everyone that is taking suboxone praises it. I know I did. It gave me that euphoric high and sense of well being. People like suboxone because they get to feel like they are taking a step towards being off painkillers, and yet not have to face the reality of withdrawal, until they decide to end their suboxone treatment.

Its a more convenient and socially acceptable version of Methadone. Potentially suitable for someone who has been taking high doses of heroin or other hard street drugs, as means to be free of committing felonies, but complete overkill and unsuitable for people taking subscription painkillers. Even for someone who was taking 30 pills a day like I was.


My personal advice to those who want to get off painkillers?

1) Slowly taper the dosage of what you are taking now. If possible, have a relative or friend distribute the pills to you.

2) Cold turkey (using the thomas recipe) and tough it out for a week.

3) Professional Rehabilitation

Dont even bother with taking suboxone. You're simply trading one addiction for another. Don't buy into its marketing BS. I will not be surprised if they receive a class action lawsuit in the near future, just like Oxycontin is dealing with now, and the 634 million dollars they are coughing up.

The true step is to cease taking anything thats narcotic and addictive.

I was in full blown active opiate addiction 10 years ago, taking 25-30 10mg hydrocodones per day. I was in trouble with the Law, writing my own scripts for hydrocodone. My life was a total mess and finally I got caught and went into a drug-court program which lasted 1 year. I completed the program and kept my record from having a felony charge on it. I got on methodone and took 75mg per day for 9 years. I wasn't functioning very well, nodding off all the time, dropping cigarettes and burning my carpet and floors all over my house. I heard about Suboxone last April 07 and decided to switch over to it from methodone. I went to a private physician and made the transition from methodone to Suboxone. It was the best thing I could have done except for quitting all together. I feel so much better, I have energy and never nod off anymore. My husband is happy because now I can actually watch a movie with him without falling out asleep. Everyone is different in how they respond to any drug but from my own experience, Suboxone is a much cleaner drug than methodone, has alot less side effects and I know for a fact that it is easier to come off of than methodone.
I did my homework on Suboxone before I switched over from methodone to it and Suboxone helps stabilize the brain chemistry, which is a big plus. I have found that if you keep your Suboxone dose as low as you possibly can, then the better you will do and feel. I do plan to come off of the Suboxone eventually but until I am ready, I am living a very productive life, something I couldn't do on pills or methodone. So Yes I am going to tell everyone that if they want to work towards a drug free lifestyle but can't seem to do it, then Suboxone is an alternative that will allow them to become functional where they can start to work on a 12-Step program, break some bad habits, make some new friends, go to work and learn how to live a productive life until they become stronger and more confident about tapering off the Suboxone. Because it takes a whole lot more than the Suboxone to live a healthy productive life and to STAY CLEAN, you have to work on yourself everyday. Suboxone has enabled me to do just that.

Working towards being a Better Me,
SKYFAITH

[vduda]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to interject. I was probably on more junk than all of you put together. Every kind of opiate you can imagine. Shot, popped and snorted it. Chris/Thomas you make some good points. I have been saying it all along in my post and replies that Suboxone is just another opiate replacer. Many people go from bad to worse. For example, someone using suboxone to get off hydrocodone. Suboxone is far worse. Someone said they think suboxone is good because they don't crave and it prevents them from relapsing. Well your taking an opiate, of course your not going to relapse because your getting your fix. And if your on hydrocodone and have switched over to suboxone you have graduated to a more addicting drug. It's the same as Methadone. When it first came out it was a miracle drug to get folks off of heroine. Surprise, it's more addicting than heroine. Withdrawals can take months. So beware people of the magic pills. There is no easy wasy out if your a "junkie". You need to go through the fire to be cleansed. Surrender. Personally, my power comes from God. I was a hardcore addict for 10 years and have now been clean for 6 months. Everyday I crave and everyday God gives me the strength to turn away. I'm very happy. I am alive again. And by no means do I judge my brothers and sisters. Some people need to be on Methadone or Suboxone because they cannot function anylonger without the opiate. I believe it is called PAWS syndrome. Like I said I am pretty sure I have taken more than all of you combined. Not proud of it. Died three times. Went through detox twice. Destroyed my body. Just over six months ago I was given two weeks to live. Now I am in perfect health. My doctor is dumbfounded. My blood work indicates that I'm in the shape of a marathon runner. In regards, to the Thomas Recipe I've been giving basically the same advice since I started on this forum. Good job Thomas. All I know is that I feel reborn. One of my professions is a musician. My creativity is flying. Guitar playing and vocals better than ever. Writing at a new level. Wearing out my girlfriend who is 12 years my younger. God is good. Life is truly beautiful. Pain is temporary, but love is forever. God Bless.

[mofong]

Hi All, thanks for the great info on Suboxone. Seems to be both pro and con, like all in life I guess. Anyways, I wondered if anyone had any advice on my situation and thoughts on using Suboxone.

I have been on Vics for 7 years with a 3 month break in between (cold turkey) which I got hooked on after multiple knee surgeries. Ultimately, my lack of sleep is what caused me to relapse, or at least it felt like the main reason.

So for the last 3 years, I've been using about 6-10 Vics a day. Over the last 8 days, I have been able to taper (somewhat painfully) down to about a half per day. I had to because my supply ran out and used some old Percocets to get me by. Essentially, I took one Perc after using 4 Vics the previous day and the slow release of the Perc and the residual Vics in my system allowed me to last a day and a half without anything. Then I took one Vic a day for the next three days (while suffering moderately) and then two days at 1/2 Perc per day which lasted me 24 hours relatively easily. Now on day 7, I took 1/4 Perc and have hit severe withdrawals for about 12 hours and now the the withdrawal has subsided a little.

Because of my long term use, the Doctor thinks I would benefit for a Subox taper to finish off. I can't believe switching from a 1/2 Perc to a 1/4 Perc has been so painful. I really like the thought of using Suboxone for a short term (not rapid) taper of maybe 1 to two weeks. I'm just going nuts at this point.

Would anyone recommend Suboxone for this short term taper or I am better off staying on a 1/4 Perc for a few more days and then quitting? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Mr. T]

Chris Nev, just because suboxone didn't work for you doesn't mean you should give advice. Suboxone is a tool used to treat opioid dependence. Suboxone will not treat the disease by it self. Lifesyle changes, therapy, and long term maintanence specifically suited for a certain individual is needed. You need to stay on suboxone long enough to repair the damage created from full opioid agonists.

Visualize a rectangular green meadow about the size of a football field with, thick grass and soft earth. This represents the area of the brain in which the morphine ( also known as opiate or narcotic) receptors are found. The meadow is mildly sloped with the left side being higher. At the left edge there is a box about the size of a hockey goal. This is the endorphin factory from which a steady stream of low weight green slippery bowling balls ( the endorphins in this example) is emerging. Endorphins are natural compounds which we all produce. They act as the body's own morphine and pain killer and fill the same receptor sites that narcotic drugs stimulate. There are bowling ball sized indentations in the meadow which are the sites of the morphine receptors. We all need a significant percentage of these holes (receptor sites) to be filled to be comfortable. Since the balls are low in weight they do not cause their own new indentations and because they are slippery they do not stay in the indentations for long before they slide out of the holes and then off the right edge of the meadow.

There are sensors under the meadow, which measure the weight and number of balls on the meadow and how many of the receptor site holes are filled. When there are more balls the sensors slow down the production and release of the green endorphin balls and visa versa, thereby maintaining the number of receptor sites containing balls.

Under normal circumstances if there is pain, there is an increase in endorphin production. There is also an increase in production with exercise and pleasure or with pain. When many receptor sites are filled, one may feel a natural high.

If a person is given a full opioid agonist such as heroin, morphine, methadone, oxycodone, hydrocodone, or fentanyl a large number of heavy black slippery bowling balls is released on the left edge of the meadow. Visualize a dump truck which dumps its load at the left edge of the meadow. These cover almost all of the receptor site holes.
This fights the pain and can give the high associated with drug use. Because they are so heavy they stop endorphin production and the factory at the left edge of the meadow becomes dormant. In addition because they are so heavy they make new holes, which now have to be filled for the person to stay out of drug withdrawal. If the drug use persists the factory is dismantled and can lose its ability to produce any green balls.
It may take a very long period of time, sometimes months or years for it to regenerate and in some cases it may never be able to function at its former level.
If the supply of black balls stops the now increased number of receptor sites rapidly become bare and the person starts to feel the symptoms of opioid withdrawal. Remember that not only does there have to be enough balls on the meadow, but there also must be a significant percentage of the holes filled as well to be comfortable. Opioid withdrawal is very painful and most people will do almost anything to get their fix.
Eventually, since ther are no longer heavy black balls on the meadow's surface the grass can regrow and the top soil can reaccumulate. The new holes will shrink and the number of holes that need to be filled for comfort will decrease. The endorphin factory will start producing the green balls again and the system will start to normalize, but it may take weeks to fully stabilize. Sometimes, however, this may take quite a bit longer and as stated above, for some individuals it may never be normal again.

BUPRENORPHINE is termed a partial agonist (stimulator) for the opioid receptor. The opioids themselves are full agonists. This means that they stimulate the receptor and fully occupy the receptor area. The more that one takes, the more the receptor is stimulated, the stronger the drug effect the more "holes" are created. A partial agonist occupies the receptor site, but only partially stimulates it. After a certain amount of buprenorphine is present adding more makes no difference and therefore taking more has no additional effect. This is called a ceiling effect. Buprenorphine eliminates the withdrawal sensations and treats pain, but only to a certain extent.

Picture light weight sticky blue bowling balls that fill the holes and eliminate the withdrawal symptoms. Since they are sticky they stay in the receptor holes and therfore the effect is long lasting. Once a blue ball occupies the hole a dose of an opioid (black balls) is blocked from getting into the receptor, thereby blocking the action of any opioid that the person might take while on buprenorphine. Since the blue balls are lightweight THEY DO NOT CREATE MORE HOLES THEMSELVES.
SINCE THE BLUE BALLS ARE LIGHTER IN WEIGHT THAN THE BLACK BALLS, THE MEADOW CAN SLOWLY REGENERATE, although this is still a slow process.
Suboxone doses need to be slowly reduced based on the pace a certain individuals brain recovers. Some individuals (long term addicts who usually use intravenously and used large amounts of opioids and never took breaks off of them) may never completely regenerate their ability to make endorphins and in whom the meadow is perpetually scarred ( the holes do not disappear). These individuals need to take buprenorphine indefinitely.

ONCE AGAIN, SUBOXONE ACTUALLY HEALS THE BRAIN OVER TIME BECAUSE IT DOES NOT CREATE NEW ENDORPHIN/OPIOID RECEPTORS LIKE FULL AGONISTS DO. OVER TIME THE EXTRA RECEPTORS THAT WERE CREATED FROM YOUR DRUG OF CHOICE WILL DISSAPEAR. YOUR ORIGINAL ENDORPHIN SYSTEM WILL START PRODUCING NATURAL ENDORPHINS AGAIN. SLOWLY BUT SURELY THROUGH TIME, THERAPY, LIFE STYLE CHANGES, AND SUBOXONE, WHICH IS LIFE SAVING MEDICATION, YOU WILL HAVE YOUR LIFE BACK. WHEN YOUR ON SUBOXONE, OVER TIME YOUR "MEADOW" WILL REGENERATE. THE DAMAGE DONE FROM YOUR DRUG OF CHOICE CAN BE REPAIRED IF YOU GIVE IT TIME AND IF YOU CHANGE YOU LIFESYLE.
DON'T LISTEN TO ALL THE ******************** OTHERS SAY. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.
WHEN YOU ARE BACK TO YOUR NORMAL SELF YOU CAN BEGIN A SLOW TAPER. I tapered about 1mg a month, and when I got to 2mg I tapered .5mg every two weeks. I started to feel some very mild wds at 1mg. When I felt wds I just took another 1mg. Eventually and quickly I adjusted. Once I was at .5mg a day I stayed on it for another two weeks.
Then I started to take it every other day, a week later then every other three days, another week later, every other five days. Then I got to the point where I took .5mg every time I felt I needed it, and eventually I didn't need it anymore. There is no reason to suffer. Suboxone doesn't get you high, just discipline yourself and quit when you are fully healed and recovered.

[Charliez]

Thanks Mr.T

[Mr. T]

Thanks Mr.T

Once you progress in your suboxone treatment and your active addict brain makes the transition to a non addict mind set you will notice how easy it is to taper and develop the skills it takes to stay on a level plain.
Tapers need to be slow because suboxone, despite being a partial agonist opioid stimulater, is one of the most potent opioids on earth; about 40 to 50 times more potent then morphine. So just take it slow. I recommend from my experience that dropping 2mg a month is very comfortable; if you have the patience try 1mg a month. Here is an example of a 1mg taper: 8,8,6,8,8,6,8,8,6, and so on for the next two weeks; then 8,6,8,6,8,6,8,6.....
for another two weeks. So the first two weeks if 8mg is your starting dose just take 8mg for two days, then take 6mg on the third day, and just alternate that pattern. That is the wonderful thing about sub, it has such a long half life you can taper in such a way; it makes it so much easier.
I realize that tapering 8mg this way will take 8 months, but you have to do what you have to do to get well comfortably. Some people say that your need for a certain ideal dose on bupe naturally lowers over time. I also recommend that you join a health club and work out. When you exercise you will teach your brain how to make endorphins naturally again; also when you combine exercise with tapering, it makes it easy.

[PLegba]

First, let me say that EVRYBODY reacts differently to drugs, good or bad. Second, there are TONS of people out there that have had great experiences with Suboxone. I am one of those people! For almost two years I was on Methadone to come off heroin and other opiates. From my experience, nothing compared to the withdrawal I went through with Methadone. By far, worse than heroin, and last twice as long. Hence, the reason I went to see a doctor who could perscribe me Suboxone. From my experience, Suboxone has been amazing. I do not have the cravings while on it, and right now, there is no physical dependency for it. I've even missed a couple days taking it, and felt very little withdrawals. I started taken the 8mgs tablets twice a day. I've not strated the weening process, and I'm now down to 4mgs daily. I have several other friends who have successfully used the drug as well.

Several of you mentioned the withdrawals to be worse than the opiates you were originally using. This surprises me because the drug is actually designed to do the opposite when it comes to withdrawal. I did recently ask my Suboxone doctor about the withdrawals, and he said I would experience some minor stuff, but nothing like before. Methadone gets in your bones, along with the rest of your body. This is why Methadone will cause terrible aches throughout your entire body while coming off it. Suboxone might not have worked for several of you guys, but it's a MUCH BETTER solution that continuing to use such narcotics as heroin and OC's. I got my life back!

If used correctly, Suboxone can be a wonder drug!

[Mr. T]

First, let me say that EVRYBODY reacts differently to drugs, good or bad. Second, there are TONS of people out there that have had great experiences with Suboxone. I am one of those people! For almost two years I was on Methadone to come off heroin and other opiates. From my experience, nothing compared to the withdrawal I went through with Methadone. By far, worse than heroin, and last twice as long. Hence, the reason I went to see a doctor who could perscribe me Suboxone. From my experience, Suboxone has been amazing. I do not have the cravings while on it, and right now, there is no physical dependency for it. I've even missed a couple days taking it, and felt very little withdrawals. I started taken the 8mgs tablets twice a day. I've not strated the weening process, and I'm now down to 4mgs daily. I have several other friends who have successfully used the drug as well.

Several of you mentioned the withdrawals to be worse than the opiates you were originally using. This surprises me because the drug is actually designed to do the opposite when it comes to withdrawal. I did recently ask my Suboxone doctor about the withdrawals, and he said I would experience some minor stuff, but nothing like before. Methadone gets in your bones, along with the rest of your body. This is why Methadone will cause terrible aches throughout your entire body while coming off it. Suboxone might not have worked for several of you guys, but it's a MUCH BETTER solution that continuing to use such narcotics as heroin and OC's. I got my life back!

If used correctly, Suboxone can be a wonder drug!

You are right, Suboxone is a miracle if used the right way and it has worked wonders for me.
Suboxone occupies the natural endorphin receptors and the additional receptors created by your drug of choice. Over time the additional receptors created by the full agonist opioid heal or go away over time when you take your suboxone. This can take a while, so you need to give your recovery a chance. You will no when you are ready to lower your dose, but remember to do this slowly over time. Your ideal sub. dose naturaly lowers over the course of treatment.
People, and those suffering from opioid addiction, do not listen to the negativity. Suboxone gave me a life free from craving. I finally have put my addiction in remission. For the first time I am not thinking of my next fix, and this is one of the best things to heal. Mental addiction is what causes post accute withdrawal (PAWS). When you are treated by suboxone you get rid of the mental addiction to opioids over time, and thus when you are ready to quit you will not suffer any PAWS when stopping the medicine. If you taper extremely slow you can even avoid the physical withdrawals. If you suffer some minor withdrawals by not tapering slowly enough do not worry. You will feel normal very soon because of the fact your mental addiction is gone; no more PAWS!!!
I am Mr. T, and I know pretty much everything about opioid addiction and crave to learn everything about it. I believe the more I understand it from a scientific stand point, I will trully understand how pointless and awful it is to use opioids. Fellow opioid addicts, we only trully get high for a month or two, after that we need it just to stay normal, and after that we need it just to stay miserable.

One more thing, methadone does not get in your bones; that is just a myth.
It is however one of the most addictive substances of the 20th century.
I used to misuse methadone to get high and it has given me withdrawals so bad that I though I was in hell. Methadone withdrawals=hell on earth.

Sadly, methadone is the only option for some addicts. This is because IV users who use large amounts over a long period of time and never take breaks off of their DOC cause permanant damage to their endorphin systems.
Just to be clear, not all IV users cause permanant damage and even a non IV user can cause permanant damage. It just matters how often and how much you used, and IV use just makes it worst because of the severe ups and downs.

Alot of these people can switch to sub from methadone when they are ready too, but some just can't. You need to get down to at least 30mg of methadone to make the switch to suboxone. I recommend you get down to 20mg or lower. You have to wait five to seven days to switch because of methadones long half life. But it is worth it.

[Jmisty]

Folks -

What the original poster fails to address is that suboxone stops craving and when taken by someone who is truely motivated to stop taking opiates it will do this. It will also alow for a "normal" life.

My facts 18-20 10Mg hydro a day. Once I got on this drug my life changed. Normal emotions, able to perform my job, and I am a citizen of life again. I have been on suboxone for 1 1/2 years so I know what I am talking about. If you are addicted to opiates this drug will save your life if you give it a chance!!!!!!!! It is not the same as metahdone!!!!! My MD also runs a methadone clinic and I have talked to alot of methadone users. They have told me straight up methadone is "hell". Methadone is maintanence and trying to taper off of it is damn near impossible. The W/D symptoms of methadone are often described worse than that of heroin or Oxy. Patients describe hallucenations, terrible phantom pain, etc. This is becuse methadone is a lonf gterm optiate, in fact, the most long acting opiate. Thus why it's used in maintenence. This is also why it's so dangerous. Remember, Methadone contains no Opiate antagonist (the stuff that takes up opiate recptors in your brain and essentualy fakes it out). Methadone is a straight long lasting opiate.

Now the facts on Suboxone: It does have some neagative side effects, however they are minumal. The major two are constipation (which is nothing new to opiate addicts) and reduced to eliminated sex drive (again nothing new). If you combine anti depressents the sex drive is usually non-exsistant.

After a maintenence schedule of a year and a half I am now Titering down. I have reduced my dose by 1/3 so far. I follow the MD's taper down and my WD symtoms are not anything I can't handle. Some nervousness, small headaches, and a small amount of sleep reduction (I fall asleep fine, I just only sleep for about 6 hours instead of 8).

Folks, I would be one that would call this drug a major breakthrough. Without it my life would have been an awful thing at least for a long while. It saved me....no hesitation in saying so.

Last thing..could talk forever but gotta go. I have a scientific background and I'll tell you all one thing. The fact that I am no longer taking the acetametaphin (Tylenol) that comes with hydro's gives me a big relief as well!!!! Those of you that don't think about this and are abusing you should!!! This is the biggest single health risk with the APAP hydros and percacets!!

Good luck all. ignore the original poster....he/she is not commited to kicking this.. Sorry for spelling/grammar errors...in a hurry!

[SheLovesKoalas]

For me, Suboxone was a life saver. I don't know if the original poster isn't "commited" to quitting so much. It's as I have said before, Different strokes for different folks.

I could NOT quit cold turkey. Yet there are others on these boards that have done so, and feel it is the only way to go. They could say the same about me. If I wanted to stop bad enough, I would quit, cold turkey, no matter what.

Quitting cold turkey just was not an option. Between pain and relapses, I had nearly given up.

I was introduced to Suboxone in 2003 and came off the oxy's and tapered off the Sub's a very small bit at a time. I do remember jumping off at 1mg or half mg a day, thinking I would be okay. It was pure hell. So I got to the point where I was tapering with itsy bitst pieces, sometimes going for 2-4 days without it.

Hey, whatever works to help the addict get off the merry-go-round of opiate addiction is alright by me.........

I learned a loooong time ago, who am I to judge another junkie~
And the only time I should be looking down on one is when I'm bending over to help him up.......

[leiito]

After a long time addiction to heroin and/or methadone I switched to sub and having gone from 60mg methadone went into quasi-withdrawal almost immediately, very very uncomfortable, but much better then the usual w/d. I was still craving and smoked massive quantities of smack on days 1,2,3 and 4, to no effect of course. Accidentally, cocaine doesn't work for me since taking sub either, go figure, supposed to be a different set of receptors. By day 5 I was human again and after a week cravings disappeared.

What I want to know is this: most people report that being on suboxone restored their vital energy so they could function again, i.e. make money, have sex, enjoy social interactions and such. I have not yet experienced the energy surge that is supposedly almost high-like in nature which most sub users report (I understand this "high" only lasts a few months and is called the honeymoon phase - you seem to be clean, you're mildly euphoric and you want to shout to the world how good you feel), but I am slowly getting back to my work routine. On heroin and/or methadone I would just sit around, watch movies, read books and think either about how I'll get off this ******************** or how I'll get high. Do you guys have this honeymoon phase?

If sub makes me a "normal" person again I don't mind taking it all my life, but what does worry me is 2 things:
1) constipation: nothing new to addicts of course, but through the years I always paid extra attention to this and preferred to get slightly sick in the morning to cleanse myself and this way I manage to look like a non-user, no zombie face with panda bear-like blackness around the eyes. Are there any pills that can help with that. I reckon some tolerance would develop to such pills over time, but again, if it works I dont mind taking it all my life.
2) libido: strangely enough, contrary to what most people experience, my sex drive returned with a vengeance as soon as I started taking sub, only problem is, I am now suffering from premature ejaculation (a familiar phenomenon from w/ds), but it is getting better, i.e. from 3 secs on day 1 to 2 minutes on day 7. Kinda embarassing but what the hell.

Most important thing, I believe, is not whether you are taking pills or not all your life, what's wrong with that as long as there are no major side effects, especially with a 37 hour half life that sub has you can skip several days after it has accumulated in your body so no next pill anxiety.

What matters most is, can you take care of yourself and your family, i.e. can you work, have a social life, enjoy hobbies etc. so your world is not heroinocentric. If subotex/suboxone does that I dont mind taking it.

Btw, Thomas method sounds interesting, hope I never have to try. If anyone cares though, I managed to wean myself from methadone by first dropping to a very low dose (10mgs or 2 pills at the time) and then I went to a cabin up in the mountains. I had a tiny bit of heroin on me and because I had a tough supervisor who would beat me up if he saw me I only snorted minute doses when I send him off to make tea, we're taking 0.1g first time, 0.05g 2nd, 0.025 3rd etc, I just kept halving what I had until I was snorting nanoparticles. I was w/d badly of course , but that little bit of smack helped a lot, I actually got to sleep a little on night 2 and in a week I was OK. Physically at least, 3 months later I relapsed so it was all for nothing, but my point is it's not that hard getting off methadone physically, but I should probably have been on some benzos after getting clean to battle the post wd depression.

Anyway, I'm on subutex (suboxone sans naltrexon) and the main thing, cravings are gone. To be honest though, if it wasn't clear from what I was asking above, I can't wait to hit the honeymoon phase to make up for the work I am late with. Or maybe I just miss a high.

[SheLovesKoalas]

Hi leiito.........

For me, Suboxone did give me some energy to get up and be productive. Not my full active self as I was pre-opiate addiction though. Sadly, THAT get-up-and-go of my youth has never fully returned. I do have to admit though, excersise was never one of my addictions, of course. I mean why would I ever be addicted to anything that was actually GOOD for me, right?

I don't recall a honeymoon phase per se. By that I mean that there was no physical "jolt". But the mental relief on not wanting to use, not worrying about where my next fix was coming from, where I was going to get money from, and how I could possibly make it out of bed without a fix was extremely comforting. I was on cloud 9 just having HOPE that I might be able to stop using. That in of itself was my HIGH.

Constipation? Yep. I don't wanna get into too much detail on the subject, but I can tell you that when I stopped the Sub's in September of 2007 I realized just how irregular I was.

My sex drive did not increase or decrease while on Suboxone. Yet once again I after stopping the Sub's my sex drive has increased to the point of absurdity.

And I do know, from being around here and other sites where people share of their Suboxone experiences, everyone reacts differently to treatment.

One thing I do know for sure though. From the onset of the use of Suboxone, there wasn't one moment where I wanted to, needed to, or craved to use. The obsession was lifted immediately for me, thank God.

PS: I felt exactly as you do. I would have been willing to stay on Suboxone FOREVER if it meant that I could return to my old self, and not want to use again. Unfortunately, the years between using and Sub treatment put actual age on this body of mine. Therefore I am now 15 years older than I was when my addiction kicked in. I may not have that pre-addiction energy, but I am also not 25 any more.

Godspeed leiito ...............

[Blissful]

Hi, could you tell me after being on Suboxone for a year what happened to you and how did you go straight and stop using? I am a doctor and I was prescribed a very mild pain killer and my doctors told me that the Norco that I was on was too addictive and that i should be on either methadone or Duragesic patches, well since i did not want to be on methadone I opted for the Duragesic . OH WHAT A MISTAKE!I am now on 3 100 mcg patches every two days , have been able to bring my self down to a patch a day but still this is killing me, I do have severe spinal injuries but I do not like being dependent on this stuff, specially since no insurance will pay for it, because of this i am on disability which means I am not making money. Which really sucks specially with the cost of medications that I need . i was told to get on Subutex/suboxone and that i should be able to get off them and be clean in about three months , now that I am reading the posts on this site, I am wondering if I should not just go into a methadone detox inpatient program. please reply if you can help. Thanks.

[Typical]

Hi, could you tell me after being on Suboxone for a year what happened to you and how did you go straight and stop using? I am a doctor and I was prescribed a very mild pain killer and my doctors told me that the Norco that I was on was too addictive and that i should be on either methadone or Duragesic patches, well since i did not want to be on methadone I opted for the Duragesic . OH WHAT A MISTAKE!I am now on 3 100 mcg patches every two days , have been able to bring my self down to a patch a day but still this is killing me, I do have severe spinal injuries but I do not like being dependent on this stuff, specially since no insurance will pay for it, because of this i am on disability which means I am not making money. Which really sucks specially with the cost of medications that I need . i was told to get on Subutex/suboxone and that i should be able to get off them and be clean in about three months , now that I am reading the posts on this site, I am wondering if I should not just go into a methadone detox inpatient program. please reply if you can help. Thanks.

So sorry Bliss....

I am a former Duragesic user. However; only 75 mics a day...plus a 3 vic a day. Weened off the Vic a month prior to stopping the patch. Taken as prescribed, not an abuser. But do the withdrawals feel any different...not really. I quite May 5 and went on suboxone May 6. Pure hell. cut my dosage back to hardly nothing inside a week....

I will NEVER put another patch on...I'll live with the chronic back pain. Anything is better than this...

Hardest thing I have ever done.

Had some really good days and some bad on the Suboxone...today was bad. I am just waiting for it to stop...that is all anyone can do going through this.

Good Luck
T.

[Robert_325]

So sorry Bliss....

I am a former Duragesic user. However; only 75 mics a day...plus a 3 vic a day. Weened off the Vic a month prior to stopping the patch. Taken as prescribed, not an abuser. But do the withdrawals feel any different...not really. I quite May 5 and went on suboxone May 6. Pure hell. cut my dosage back to hardly nothing inside a week....

I will NEVER put another patch on...I'll live with the chronic back pain. Anything is better than this...

Hardest thing I have ever done.

Had some really good days and some bad on the Suboxone...today was bad. I am just waiting for it to stop...that is all anyone can do going through this.

Good Luck
T.

It will get better again Typical ... just hang in there and stay focused.