I started it 2009 and never went above 6mg. I got down to 2mg in about 6 months, cravings and I used heroin for the first,time in 7 years. I dont think I ever really gave suboxone a good shot, I go to therapy weekly and have a great doctor who will help me. I took 4mg an df feel fine, no stomach cramps or neasue, I dont want to go back to the dragon, I do crazy things, should I take 2mg every couple of days until I feel fine. Whay is a good dose. I have been coming to this forim for over a year and need help. Should I just accept that I will be on it for lofe and find a good dose. Thanks everyone
Am I on too low dose of suboxone?
Question posted by oktoday on 8 Aug 2011
Last updated on 12 August 2011
Answers
Thor283
9 Aug 2011
Hi Rob,
I think Sub is very good med, and that's what it is, a medicine. You should be taking enough to not feel cravings, To me, the fact that you did Heroin says you're on way too little. You don't want to be on so much that you're walking around nodding, but you also want to be taking enough so you feel OK. Some of us get this OK feeling more than others. It's not a high. It feels like being normal. I'm not so sure I knew what that felt like until I went on Sub. You asked if you're going to be on it your whole life? Maybe, you might be. If being off it is going to be a daily struggle just to not do dope, then what would you rather be? Let me tell you a true story. There was a guy i was friends with in the 2nd and 3rd grades. As we went though school we grew apart. After school, he became a Heroin addict. I saw him a few times over the years, but we never hung out. Six years ago I moved to where I am now, and I saw him here. He asked me how I was and if I constantly want the stuff. I said no because I'm on a med that prevents me from wanting anything. Then I asked him. His face grew very solemn, and he broke eye contact with me. He said Yeah, he has to fight the desire to shoot up everyday. Then he said he didn't think he could keep it up much longer. I told him if he was going to pick up to come to me. I told him I'd stop the cravings and hook him up with a great doc who would then take care of him. (but you see, I knew he was in with people who wouldn't accept him being on Sub) I still told him to come by me. He only lived 4 blocks away. He never came so I figured he was fine. Six months later I found out he was dead. He died a few weeks after I saw him. He did pick up, and he OD. He was hung up on being on a maintenance drug. Now he's gone.
With enough Sub you should have no cravings at all. Not physically anyway. I will admit that you need to have given up the party type life style, and the desire to get messed up out of your head. That part is in the mind.
I don't think you should ask your doc for just 2 mg. I tend to think you should tell him you relapsed and let him decide how much you should take. But even if you don't tell him, I think you should have more in the house than you actually need. You can always take less. But if you only have 4 mg a day, and you need 8 mg a day, what will you do until you see the doc again? I think you're lucky you didn't die. You also sound like you're hung up on the idea of taking too much. Why? There really is no such thing as too much, except there is what will be too much for you. (That's not entirely true. 33 mg is too much because at that dose the Bupe in Sub becomes an antagonist, instead of a partial agonist) But other than that, what's too much for me may be just right for you and visa versa. I never worry about what other people think. No one is in my skin but me. No one knows how I feel but me. One rule of thumb I use is I ask for twice what I expect to take. However, I'll usually tell the doc I expect to need X amount but I might need Y amount so I'd rather have it if I need it. Most doc's agree. I like to err on the side of caution.
So good luck and keep on posting.
oktoday
10 Aug 2011
Thank you for you honesty and comment. I was taught old school and at 44 and being in AA, NA on and off for 20 years I have it in my head that I should be on nothing but I know that type of thinking is hurting me. I always thought less sub the better for me but now I am realizing I think my body was still craving the high or even missed the high of opiates. I take 4mg a day now and feel fine but still the cravings are there and I feel like my body and mind want to get high. I see the doc on friday and I spoke to my sub therapist and she agree's that I am hung up on taking subs and being on a low dose. I always would take it and then start doing the decreasing of it and then the cravings would increase. I dont think I ever really gave it a true shot as medicine to work. I think in my head why does my brain need this stuff.
Its hard because I have 5 years clean back in 2000 and still feel I can attain that but if the altenative is to stuggle and almost die from heroin it is not worth it. I am sooooo confused because there is so much information and theories on this med that even the doctors cant agree. I tell my doctor everything and he is great and he did tell me I was on a low dose before and I know we need to reevalute how I take it. I will ask what he thinks I should do and listen and leave it alone. I think another 2 to 4mgs a day will be fine and I am going to leave it alone. I did fine before on 4mgs when I just took it and didnt decrease it but this time doing the heroin woke something up in me that scares me and I cant go down that route again. Thanks for your support. Love, Joy, Peace Rob
Inactive
10 Aug 2011
Dear Rob, some people do need subs for life, some don't or can't stay on it because their jobs won't let them. I never meant to imply to ANYONE that most people need to taper off of it as opposed to staying on it for life. Many in the medical field are not allowed to stay on it and are forced to take it for a short time. It is those I try to reach out to and help taper off safely and comfortably. Some people did think I meant everyone should get off of it. Then there are "well meaning" family, friends and co-workers who know nothing about suboxone who say you have switched one addiction for another and that is not only false, but it is NONE of their business to comment on anyone's medical treatment. I had several people say this to me and I tried to explain it was helping me get my life back together with the least amount of down time. Addictions are complicated issues and not everyone needs the exact same treatment.
There is some talk of some people being born with too few neurotransmitters and receptor sites for psi relief. You could be one of those people. I can't stress enough how the addiction therapy helped me and gave me the broad view of opiate addiction. In group one nite, my counselor, Barb, handed out a sheet listing triggers and signs for relapse, I have it somewhere, just from memory, when times are stressful, when times are good, when we are overly tired, when we are wired, when we are hungry, when life is changing on us, these were a few of the times we were in danger or cravings and relapses. I hope you can find a compassionate knowledgeable addiction therapist whom you understand, and who is more in agreement with your drs assessment that you need it still and may for life. I hope this comment finds you feeling a bit better, more comfortable and more accepting of the fact that you may need it for a while or for life. Thanks you so much for updating us. Patti
oktoday
11 Aug 2011
Patti I know what u are saying I guess in a way I worry too much and just need to let it work and let it go. My counselors name is barb too. Lol. Luv ya Patti
Thor283
11 Aug 2011
Rob,
You're right that with Sub low doses feel better than high doses. But notice I said low doses FEEL better than high doses. Sometimes a person needs the high dose for a while. When most addicts go on Sub they keep thinking the way we learned to think all our lives. Namely, that if some is good more is better. This just isn't true with Sub, and this too can cause this med to fail. All it means is too much is no good neither. But you need enough so there are no cravings and no wds. You should feel normal. If something bad happens you'll feel badly, and if something good happens you'll be happy. I think that's what normal is.
So low doses are better but the fact that you did Heroin is a big Red alert. Bells, whistles, and lights flashing, or at least they should be, in your mind. And I'm glad you said your age. You're probably going through a mid life crisis, or it's just ending. I think the mid life crisis is very real. I think the brain probably goes through a physical change at 38 - 45 similar that it does in the mid 20's. Although I don't know of anyone who did any research on this. I can say this. All my life I stayed away from opiates. I used other drugs, but i feared opiates, and I stayed away from them. The 1st time I allowed myself to get hooked was at about 41. I even distinctly remember thinking I was unhappy at 41 and it was time to stop being cautious. So I had bad bronchitis that winter, and I allowed myself to get hooked on Codeine CS. I had no idea what I was in for. A year later I had to kick the Codeine, Vicodin, and I even tryed a few bags of Dope when I couldn't get anything else. Luckily I hated Heroin. So I did a CT detox and swore that would never happen again. And it wouldn't have, except constant injuries made me keep needing pain pills. That was in the mid 90's. Eventually I was given Sub in 2005 and it's a gift of mixed blessings. I can't take Suboxone because I'm allergic to Naloxone, or sensitive to it or something, so I always took Subutex, and I did well on it. Then these generics came out, and now I have problems with it. But a few weeks ago I paid for the Name Brand, and had no problems at all with it. I'm one of the people that will probably be on something for life. I have chronic pain and Sub helps a great deal. But beyond that, I always needed something to make me feel OK. Usually it was Pot or beer. So long as I take Sub, I feel no need for anything else. So I stay on it. Of course this also means I am not welcome at NA and AA. So that's something you may have to work around. When I did attend meetings I was very dismayed at all the long time members who relapsed. I really used to get upset over that. I saw that some people can stay with nothing just fine, but for others it's a daily struggle. I was also dismayed that people with 3 and 5 years clean time, had the same emotional problems as I did with 3 weeks clean time. I saw a basic flaw in the thinking about this disease. I now think there are many forms of this illness. If a person like my old friend, is going to live a life of relapse after relapse, and misery inbetween while he struggled to stay clean, only to die from an OD at 53, why not just stay on Sub. At least nowadays we have such a med. I bet in another 40 years there will be even better meds. Me and you may not be here to see it, but I bet someday it will exist.
You were lucky this time, Rob. You lived. If you do dope again, you may accidentally do too much. It keeps getting purer and therefore stronger. With Sub, you may need 8 mg right now, but over the course of a year the amount you need tends to go down. Right now you have to stay out of cravings. But this amount may also make you drowsy. In time you'll probably take less to not feel drowsy and notice you still don't get cravings. I think that was how my dose came down. In 2005 I started at 13 mg a day and went down to 5 mg. Everything should be fine unless they invent a generic Suboxone. A lot of people are not like me, I know this. But I have problems with several generic drugs, and with Subutex it's a big problem. And I just spent 8 days taking Name Brand Subutex, and there sure is a difference.
Good luck with your doc tomorrow. Let us know what happens.
Inactive
8 Aug 2011
Hey Ok, if you are stable, no cravings or withdrawal on 2 mgs, good, if you need 4 that is ok too. You want to be craving and withdrawal free, that is what you are looking for. Please stay here with us for support, you have the dr, the counselor, the med, now maybe you could use some support. so many of us want to do it alone, whether it is out of guilt, shame, or just because we think we got ourselves into this, we have to get out by ourselves and sometimes it helps to have a support team. Plus you help others. I hope this message finds you feeling better. at 2 mgs, you may feel that wear off closer to 30 hours instead of a couple of days, so, keep that in mind. Glad to see you back, Patti
Inactive
8 Aug 2011
and if it is not too much trouble, please go to your profile page and check your settings for email alerts, privacy and make sure your email address you have listed for the site is accurate, a while back they went in and changed some stuff and may have unchecked your boxes that will alert you to private questions, just double check it ok. good to have you back. Patti
oktoday
8 Aug 2011
Hi patty, I just updated my email. I got down to 2mg and relapsed on heroin last week plus oxys. I can take 4mg of subs a day. I did that and feel fine,no withdrawals. I am still craving, I see the doc friday should I ask him of I can go up another 2mg and wait and then see how I feel. In a way I dont think I really worked with the subs always lowering it and having cravings. This time I survived but,i passed out on the bathroom floor from the h and I havrnt touched that shit in years. Thanks patti and glad too hear from you. Love Rob
Inactive
9 Aug 2011
Gosh Rob, that was close but glad you made it. See how you feel on 4 if ya need more to stop the cravings, take more. I started on 8 mgs and I was only on four to six lortab 10s per day and got moved to 12 mgs, def too much for my usage but didn't know that. I was high as a kite and looked like a tweaking crackhead for a few days. Glad to have you back my friend, we missed ya! Love patti
Coby416
9 Aug 2011
I have been on 2mgs per day and have had no problems. Even my Dr thought it would be low but I seem to be doing fine. I had been taking the Oxycotins at least 120 to 200 per day for years and years. The pain was chronic. I still have some pain but I must have built up a pretty high tolerence because the dosage increased over the years. In fact the morphine they gave me had to be consistently increased each time I went to ER when i was passing a kidney stone. I hope I am right about the suboxone and the lower the dose the easier it will to quit them. So I will stay at 2mg for anotehr month then down to 1 and so on and so forth. I sure hope you can do it. I never thought I could. The drugs play mind games and I thought I would need more.
I wish you the best of luck!
Coby
Ps because the the people here I am able to to type to you. They helped me a great deal.
oktoday
10 Aug 2011
Patty I am lucky that I came back. The one thing that stopped me was money and my thinking was going crazy like I wanted to rob a bank or something. My tolerance is high and I am depressed because I know this is a battle I will face all my life. If I go to AA or Na they say I am not clean being on suboxone and I know I am using that as an excuse but its tough when you had that type of thinking for 20 years. My first AA meeting was 1991 and maybe I can find a suboxone meeting in the area. Also I think I never really gave the subs a shot. I constantly drecreased my dosage and I cant do that anymore. I need to listen to the people who are treating me and leave it alone.I am 44 and feel like I made a failure out of it. I never really thought of the consequences of living that type of life and now being a convicted felon and not having any hope that I can stay clean I feel the only choice is to just give up. not commit suicied per say but give in to the heroin.
I know I am just down right now and will be better but when I reflect I realize I gave up so much to heroin and I get sad. I will take the 4mg and talk to the doctor and just listen to him. I am fortunate I do have a great doctor, therapist and friends and actually have some type of purpose with my website but its alway a feeling of emptiness inside and not fitting in and that on matter what I do I always fail at it. Thank you Patti you are my angel and I still remember our first chat here. You helped me then and you are helping me now. I hope you realize how much you mean to me. I really mean that. It was great to see you on my site and you can contact me there to. I wish the best for you and Hope you and yours are doing good. Love, Peace, Joy Rob
Inactive
10 Aug 2011
dearest Rob, you are not a failure, you are a success, it just does'nt feel like it right now. You just had a relapse and are remorseful now. It almost sounds like you are in ANHEDONIA, WHERE NOTHING, NO ONE AND NO PLACE LETS YOU FEEL PLEASURE. not yelling, emphasizing, I had this too, I called it my 'zac and Ami days. My subs counselor caught this horrible change in me and sent me to subs dr for antidepressants. I was already on a low dose of Ami ( amitriptyline) and he added a low dose of 'zac (generic Prozac, non extended release) I took 25 mgs of Ami one day and 10 mgs of 'zac the next. And I went to a few individual therapy sessions, had full support of our recovery group, which helped. we had some naysayers at AA say we weren't really sober, counselor said we are. I agree with her, she has an addiction degree... Or 3, so she is more likely to be right. You are sober and you are a valued member of our support group.
booter46
12 Aug 2011
Rob you are right patti is a ANGEL. And you are not a failure. Dont give up and keep trying that is what is important. There are alot of great people on this site who really care and will be there for you. Good luck my friend and with friend like patti you are a blessed man. Your friend John. P.S. I can be there when you need me are storys are alike.
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suboxone, opiate dependence, heroin
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