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Advice on treatment options
Advice on treatment options
I complained a while ago at the lack of treatment options for opiod dependence and the "one size fits all" approach. Anyway, I said I'd come back if I found any info that may be of interest. I'm currently stuck on subs which is miserable for me as the side effects have a negative impact on my life.
Anywayi, here's what I learned just in-case it's useful to anyone:
I researched rapid detox which I have seen very little info about here. It sounds like an easy way out wihtout anyone noticing right? Well firstly, there are less of these clinics than you would think. I live in new York and could not find one less than 3 hours drive away. The phone, if you find one still in business is answered by a sales person who will express horror that you were ever prescribed subutex. They will criticize your doctor for giving them to you as a way of keeping you going back so they can derive profit from your misery. But fear not, for around $15,000, they will fly you to Vegas on a Tuesday, put you to sleep under a general while they pump you full of nax. You wake up 2 days later. You then need to stay a few more days either with them or in a hotel on the strip. You may feel well enough to go home by the Sunday. There is no guarantee that it will work and you will be depressed for a month just like normal detox. Sounds like a lot to avoid 4 days of throwing up right?
I asked my shrink if I could go back on short acting opiates so I could go cold turkey myself but she refused.
I tried cold turkey from subs and lasted a week before stopping my pain. One month of w/d is too long for me.
So here I am, trapped in hell. I'm on subs because there are 2 meds approved for f$$ck ups like me. They happen to be the two that cause no high. They are also the two that are the hardest to get off.
Every time I see someone rave about how subs saved them, I want to hitnthem with a brick. It's an opiate. I'm still addicted only now I'll never get free. I can't taper. Never could. I was better off on oxy. At least they have some upside. The government is fine with me being an addict as long as I derive no pleasure or sleep.
Partial agonists/fullagonist, who cares. You still throw up and cry when you go into w/d. Sub w/d felt the same as oxy and hydro morphine except without the light at the end of the tunnel.
My shrink wants me to stay on them for a year. She also wants me to add, clonazepan, Prozac, ambient and adderal to balance my symptoms.
I'm in bed watching my life crumble. Thanks subs. I'm trapped in hell.
I identify with your plight, businessman... I'm in the same boat but probably addicted for longer. A ridiculously long time. After a long bout on methadone, I thought sub would be the wonder drug, which is isn't. Like methadone, it's a powerful opiate and if you don't get off it really quickly, it seems to be problematic for many, and even those who ended up successful suffered for a long time., As for Rapid Detox, there is no way in hxll I would even consider it. I've seen people spend thousands only to come out of it sicker than they've ever been before. I have never seen anyone succeed going that route. Ibogaine is another possibility but it's illegal in the U.S. There is a poster who did it and has been clean ever since but to me the best possibility was written about on another thread by someone who succeeded in getting and staying clean. It involves taking a weak short acting opiate to get through the sub withdrawals. Of course, there is relapse danger there because you have to taper and stop but it seems to be one way to get out of sub hell. If your psychiatrist refuses to perscribe something like darvocet, perhaps another doctor will.
heck thats a scary thought,
even yesterday on my own thread ive been ravin about how im trying to jump off a ridiculous low dose of sub, and its sheer hell with RLS and i cant sleep, kickin and struggling, so i take some more. like you said businessman, "to stop my pain"
yeh, i feel normal most of the time, till it runs out.
i think there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but is it a huge freight train comin..???
i feel conned actually, they told me it was far easier to get off than methadone, yeh i could taper to low, but every time i try and stop, its unbearable.
i need to look up that stuff in darvocet and see if we got that stuff here. but would be havin an addictive personality, get hooked on them and just want more.?
sometimes more questions than answers.
There is a definite group of us, and it's definitely more than just us three, that just can't get a grip on it. The RLS and other symptoms are too much.. I just wish I knew what the difference was. Is it physiological? I know alot of people say "you can do it if you want to" but I can't. I wonder if it has to do with length of addiction. I know mine is long and yours too, cheeky. I wish I knew the difference. Some will say its desire to be clean and a strong will but I don't buy that. I have the desire. Maybe not the will. I can't believe how this first post struck a cord with me. I feel conned too. I thought because it was a "partial" agonist it would be easier than methadone. No way.
There is no "easy route" out of addiction - and I don't know why folks expect that there "should" be. That confuses me. Maybe it's because we're drug addicts, and we've become used to quick fixes - so we figure there "must" be a quick fix out of addiction, isn't there? After all, the "quick fix" got us INto addiction, didn't it?
Before I'd ever become a slave to a year of suboxone, clonazepan (klonopin), ambien and adderol, I'd find a way to put myself into a detox center and rough it out for a week (or more, if needed) - under medical supervision. I seriously question any shrink who thinks that crazy concoction of addictive medications is the answer to addiction recovery!!!
Yes, I have done it. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it sucks. But, like most things in life, anything worth having is worth the effort to get there. If it were easy, we wouldn't need boards like these, nor programs like NA and AA. If it were easy, I would not have had to commit myself to 6 months of in-patient treatment, which is what I did, years ago, to stay clean. When you're serious about recovery, you stop lamenting what can't be done - and you seize onto what CAN be done... and you do it.
Well stated, Ruth!
Originally Posted by ARTIST658
You and I have always agreed on doing this under medical supervision - you never want to make a bad situation worse.
So it takes ~ a week to get through the really tough w/d issues - it is so worth it.
I NEVER, EVER want to go through the physical and mental anguish of opiate w/d again.
My advice to anyone is to put a plan in place and execute. Do not wait. There is never a "good" time to do this. We would not wait to get treated for cancer if diagnosed. Why wait for this? I am not trying to draw equivelencies of cancer to addiction. They are both, however, life threatening.
God bless all of us in this battle. We need each other for strength, feedback - just to know we are not alone.
Regards to all of my fellow suffering addicts.
Ruth, as always, I agree with what you say. Your post are always informative and also compassionate. After 45 stupid years, I know there is no "easy route" out of addiction. How about a less painfully diffult one though? For some, it takes more than the desire to get there. I know I have the desire. I don't drink except socially and rarely, I don't do any other illicit drugs, only do 1/2 a benzo occasionally and rarely.... Opiates, well that's another story. The opiate is sub. The dose is low. The desire is there. The will to take the first (or last) step is lacking but not from lack of want.
Cheeky, I have just learned that they have pulled propoxyphene (Darvocet/Darvon) in New Zealand, but it is still available in Australia. You might want to make a quick trip to Sidney and get a small amount soon before they yank it. Just FYI
P.S. Also get some DLPA for post detox.
I also think that here in the states, they considered taking Darvocet off the shelf because of the acetominiphin aspect of darvocet. I am not sure why they didn't follow through.
Although it isn't in the same "league" as the oxys and morphine, propoxyphene is another addictive drug. Chances are, being addicted already, you'll soon find yourself popping them like candy, to gain the euphoric effect.
Originally Posted by intelmetal
Many believe darvocets to be pretty harmless - I disagree. (Some also think tramadol is harmless, too!) Funny thing is, my first addiction (wayyyyy back when!) was to darvocets... prescribed to me by my father-in-law, who was trying to keep me safely away from more 'serious' narcotics... (We can see how well THAT worked!)
I agree that darvocet is an addictive narcotic but it is much milder than sub, methadone and oxy. I think it could help some of us get through the hellish addiction to sub just to take the edges off. Of course, there is a danger there, but if you're not able to get off the much stronger stuff, there isn't that much at risk. It worked for one person here who had a MAJOR habit and might be worth a try for some who can't find there way off harder stuff.
I remember getting darvocet for pain situations back when I was young. I am positive I never got even slightly high from it. In fact, years later, coming to this forum, reading that people use darvocet to get high really surprised me. I never had an inkling of a clue that people actually used darvocet for pleasure. For some of us who have been addicted to major opiates for long times, I see no risk in getting stuck on darvocet. It's like the difference between drinking a glass of wine with dinner and drinking a quart of vodka a day. (or whatever, don't know alcohol amounts. Does vodka even come in quarts?). I've said it before and I'll say it again. Intel's plan is the first one that has even given me a glimmer of hope.
can someone tell this kiwi what DLPA is please?......... no idea.
I'm with the cheeky-kiwi on this one! Call me clueless, but I still want to know!
Btw, how old are you cheeky if you don't mind me asking.
cheers steve, ive heard of that phenylalanine, i will check it out. nother question now, whats the DL for.?
hope all is well down in the gulf, thats a helluva mistake on bp's part ay, and now i see shrimp boats doin the clean up. dodgy big business.
all the best bro
ok, so ive looked up the answer to my own question, havin a read now, heres a wee bit anyway.
The essential amino acid DL-Phenylalanine is a natural compound that protects against the breakdown of enkephalins, a neurotransmitter that act as your body"s own pain reducer. Phenylalanine comes in two forms which are mirror images of each other L-phenylalanine which has a nutritional value, and D-phenylalanine which has pain killing and depression alleviating value which is attributed to its ability to block the breakdown of enkephalins, the brains natural pain killer neurotransmitter.
Good work, kiwi, doing the research. I had no idea what it was either but I'm willing to try just about anything to be okay. Thanks for the information, Steve.
DLPA or DL-phenylalanine
Cheeky and NYG, I have no idea why this is not a hot topic within the opiate recovering community. It makes so much sense that if this stuff will destroy or at least slow down the enzyme responsible for breaking down our bodies natural pain killers/mood stabilizers, that we should all look into taking this after detox. I have even read about people using this to take less pain medication. That's right, we could have probably used less narcotic if we had supplemented w/ DLPA. It can be used with or without OTC pain meds or narcotic pain meds. Unreal huh ?
Originally Posted by cheekysod
I have a quick question. Is it sold in health food stores, regular drug stores or by perscription?
Ruth, you are spot on correct. Well said, especially about the point of this being done under in-patient care!
Originally Posted by ARTIST658
Last edited by PeterRabbit2; 05-26-2010 at 01:54 PM.
NICE!!! Keep dropping gems on us Steve! Love all of these little tips! How come this is the first time I have seen anybody talk about this stuff??
You seem to have a very analytical mind which I can definitely appreciate! What field of work are you in if you don't mind me asking? You rock!
azul, thanks for the kind words ! I am going to start a new thread to post tips for methadone/suboxone tapering, detox, withdrawals, PAWS, and recovery. I think that having all of the info on one thread will make it much easier for all of us. I have not used methadone since May 2, 2009 and have not used suboxone since July 19, 2009. I used Darvocet for 12 days after my last dose of sub and have been opiate free ever since. I did suffer with about 8 months of PAWS though. Don't worry about that yet, as not everyone will have to deal with PAWS. Some have short mild PAWS and some not at all.
Originally Posted by azul diablo
I am a REAL ESTATE INVESTOR, like the ones you see on TV. I buy and sell houses and vacant lots. I also build new houses ( specs ) to sell and fix up old houses to sell. Some people call it flipping, but that is only half of it. The properties I flip are " net check deals ", meaning that I only show up at the double closing to sign each sale, one to acquire and one to sell. I do them 15 minutes apart and receive a net check ( the difference between my purchase price and my sales price minus closing cost ). The average quick flip will bring in about $10,000.00. There is a lot more to it than most people realize, like finding the deals, negotiating with sellers, finding and negotiating with buyers, etc. It is very intense and rewarding if you have what it takes. Well, now you know what I do. I am very good with numbers, born that way. I actually dropped out of school in the 6th grade LOL ! I was not a dummy, just got bored with school and skipped out a lot. The reason for failing 6th grade 5 times was not attending enough days, therefore incomplete. I got great grades, just did not attend enough.
I talk to you later. Keep doing the taper, it's important !
Steve, you are the best. I can't wait for that new thread with all the tips. I need to go to one place when the time comes that I need to do what you advice. Thanks so much for being there for us.
I've good things about the DLPA and the l-tyrosine, some people claim they didn't help. I take the tyrosine but will give the dpla a shot and see if I notice an improvement. Thanks for providing the information.
I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.
Robert, thank you so much for being open minded to this slightly controversial way of getting off of subs. I never recommended it for all suboxone tapers, because I believe your system is best for the majority of opiate dependent people trying to get clean. I found that for myself (being a heavy long term methadone abuser) , that tapering off of subs was pretty difficult as they are similar to methadone (long half life) and more powerful than I anticipated. I did pretty good tapering down my sub dose to .25mgs, but never felt completely stable at that low of a dose. When I skipped my first day I freaked out and started researching anything and everything about quitting opiates. I ran across several articles where the Darvocet was mentioned as a withdrawal aid if used properly. I decided to do a test on myself with the Darvocet after taking 1 more dose of .25mgs of sub on July 19, 2009. I took 1 Darvocet n-100 in the a.m. and 1 in the p.m. I did this for 5 days straight. I then started taking 1 Darvocet n-100 in the a.m. and 1/2 of a Darvocet n-100 in the p.m. I did this for 4 days straight. On my final 3 days, I only took 1 Darvocet n-100 in the a.m. and quit on July 31, 2009. I truly believe that this method helped me to get through the worst days of withdrawal. If you remember back in July 2009, I posted something like " I think I found the Silver Bullet ", but did not reveal what it was. I was worried about giving out potentially bad information. I did not want to live with the thought of derailing someones taper, so I kept it to myself. Now I realize that for certain situations, it might be the right thing to do as a last resort. Mainly for people that cannot handle the skipping days part of your brilliant taper plan. I really like your plan and think that most people should adhere to it.
Originally Posted by Robert_325
The best part about Darvocet, is that you won't like it at all. It just mask some of the symptoms of sub withdrawal. I personally do not think that it is sought after to get high. It did not get me high. I also read that it was related to methadone, but 100 times weaker and with less abuse potential.
To sum it up, your plan is very, very good and will work for most. The people who are finding it impossible to get off of subs or methadone should consider trying this method only when they are down to a super small dose of sub (.25mgs or less) or a small dose of methadone (2mgs or less).
I, like you Robert, have nothing to gain by sharing/helping others and I have lost my cockiness and ego since getting clean. Hats off to you brother, we have more in common than you know !
Now lets see if we can get a good president next time around and secure our borders !
Say hello to Mel for me and Michelle.
i was one of the ones who thought id failed, i couldnt skip, and after seeing my good pal intelmetal get off, apparently "without incident" i thought it was just me.
now i know about the silver bullet thing, i dont feel so bad. in fact my opinion has changed considerably lately, i aint no failure for not gettin off subs, on the 25% every 4 day taper,
my life is heaps better than it used to be. im on a low dose of sub, usually .5 on chemist day, .25 the other days. this stuff IS HARD TO GET OFF. even at these low doses, its the RLS that gives me the hardest time.
but i think steve, you are correct, a lot of people who have done lots of pills, are not in the same league as the hard core long term methadone people, i think our receptors are burnt raw or something, coz it does seem to be harder for us, than the pillheads. (no offence to you "pillheads" out there.), then you add the iv part, and its a whole other can of worms. its all relative.
im sayin this, coz i have felt a little intimidated at times, to say how i really feel,
as my doctor says, so what if you need longer to come off, as its said here plenty of times, "it took you years to get here", so whats the hurry to get off. as long as you are moving forward with your life, i cant see the problem.
me too. now i know one day i wanna be clean, but im pretty darn sure, IF i had managed to get clean say in 3 months, i wouldve gone back to my old ways and that would not be a success in my books. ive relapsed heaps, and want to get it right this time.
thanks steve for your honesty, i know sometimes it seems there is only one way to skin this cat called subs, but ya know, theres more than one way.
i commend you for coming out and saying how you did it.
im not sayin i can do it either, it might be hard, but at least i know i aint the failure i once thought i was. no way.