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  1. #1
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    I've been on pain meds for over 9 yrs. and 4 1/2 of that on oxycontin at around 400 mg a day. I'm having a problem finding a doc for suboxone that will work with my insurance. The insurance will pay for the suboxone.

    Should I taper down before starting suboxone (when i find a doc), or can you start on 400mg of oxycontin?

  2. #2
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    I've been on pain meds for over 9 yrs. and 4 1/2 of that on oxycontin at around 400 mg a day. I'm having a problem finding a doc for suboxone that will work with my insurance. The insurance will pay for the suboxone.

    Should I taper down before starting suboxone (when i find a doc), or can you start on 400mg of oxycontin?




    Considering that oxycontin is a time released medication it would be an easier induction if you switched over to a fast acting oxycodone, even percocet for a week or two to get the time released effects of the oxycontin out of your system. Then we could do the induction with lots less problems.

    Here is a link to how we've used subs here for years. I did this myself, wrote the link and a countless number of people have been successful with this process over the years. Pay CLOSE attention to INDUCTION section of the link. Hope this helps.

    Where are you looking for a sub dr that accepts insurance? God bless.

    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  3. #3
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks Robert, does the medication stay in your system the same amount of time even if they where crushed and swallowed? I found two doc's from the sub's directory, but I'm still waiting on a response. Their trying to open up a new office here in Gallup, New Mexico.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Subs are to be taken sublingually, under the tongue. They don't work the same if you just swallow them.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  5. #5
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Subs are to be taken sublingually, under the tongue. They don't work the same if you just swallow them.
    oh I ment the oxycontin, does it stay in your system the same amount of time if taken whole or crushed?

  6. #6
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    oh I ment the oxycontin, does it stay in your system the same amount of time if taken whole or crushed?



    Oxycontin are time released. It's not advisable to crush them, chew them or do anything but swallow them whole. Oxycontin usually come in higher amounts of mg than instant or fast acting oxycodone. So if you chew or crush them, snort them or do anything but take them whole by swallowing all of the time released medication is released at once. This can be dangerous for the person doing that as you get all the extended medication instantly rather than the way it was intended to be administered. It stays in your system longer swallowing it whole, but it's not as dangerous taking like that. But for a person wanting to get off them, I suggest switching to a lower mg oxycodone so the half life is shorter and it's easier to be inducted on suboxone or even to taper down or stop cold turkey. Stopping oxycontin cold turkey is hard to do with the extended time release. Hope that helps. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  7. #7
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks, I guess the plan is to taper down and then jump to oxycodone and then jump to soboxone? Still confused , but oxycontin and oxycodone have a different chemical makeup?

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    Thanks, I guess the plan is to taper down and then jump to oxycodone and then jump to soboxone? Still confused , but oxycontin and oxycodone have a different chemical makeup?



    Oxycontin is the same drug as oxycodone. The difference is the contin is time released whereas the codone is instant release. When you get ready to induct on suboxone you need to go into moderately severe w/d on what's called the COWS (clinical opiod w/d scale) worksheet. In order to reach the required score of 26 regarding your symptoms you will reach that score faster on codones than contins because the contins last longer in your system. Making the switch from the contins to the codones will make the induction easier for you for the aforementioned reasons. That is why it is suggested that you do this. I don't know how to make this any easier to understand. Hope that helps. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  9. #9
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks. Would the tapering be the same with contin as the plan with suboxone 25% every 4 days? Just trying to get a plan of where to start.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    Thanks. Would the tapering be the same with contin as the plan with suboxone 25% every 4 days? Just trying to get a plan of where to start.



    You don't even have to taper off the oxycontin. Just get some oxycodone, percs, lortabs, any fast acting opiate and use them a little while to get the oxycontin time released meds out of your system and then we can start. Get rid of the oxycontine however you want to, just get on a fast acting med asap so we can get the time released stuff out of your body. It will make this so much easier. Then you'll be ready to be inducted without having to go through w/d for 2-3 days first waiting to get sick enough as the contins hang around in your body so long. Hope that makes sense.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Robert, I'm sorry to be a pest. I just spoke to a Doc that can prescribe suboxone. He wants to meet me tommorrow. I don't know what to expect. I'm tired of the oxycontin addiction nightmare. I havn't stop anything because of the fear of wd's. And I don't know what to expect. From what I gather from you is that it would not be good to jump from oxycontin to suboxone. Do I just see what he says tomorrow. I'm really confused about all this. Thanks for your help.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    Robert, I'm sorry to be a pest. I just spoke to a Doc that can prescribe suboxone. He wants to meet me tommorrow. I don't know what to expect. I'm tired of the oxycontin addiction nightmare. I havn't stop anything because of the fear of wd's. And I don't know what to expect. From what I gather from you is that it would not be good to jump from oxycontin to suboxone. Do I just see what he says tomorrow. I'm really confused about all this. Thanks for your help.



    Dude ...... I've explained this over and again. Stop the freakin oxycontin, go on a an instant release opiate for a week, then stop for a couple days and you'll be ready to induct on suboxone when you score a 26 on the COWS worksheet. If you aren't ready to get clean then don't go to the dr. I can't help that you're afraid of w/d, that is a personal problem. I work with people who are ready to listen. If you let him give you suboxone tomorrow and you've steadily been taking oxycontin you will end up sick as hell. Just take a word from the wise.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  13. #13
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Gothcha. I will meet with my regular doc thurs and see if he will put me on oxycodone. I will see if this doc tomorrow will either give me suboxone to start after that or meet with him after. Thanks just need clarification. I really don't understand all this, but again thanks.

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    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Ok. Finished with the sub doc and wow. He is not convinced the problem is addiction but more depression. The good part is I have a script for suboxone. He wants me to start when I'm ready 8mg 3 times a day 12 hrs after my last oxy. Schedule to meet with him after I start the suboxone. He recommended getting on an anti depressent and a sleep med. I'm waiting on that. So hoping tomorrow my doc will give oxycodone and next week end I'll do the induction.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    Ok. Finished with the sub doc and wow. He is not convinced the problem is addiction but more depression. The good part is I have a script for suboxone. He wants me to start when I'm ready 8mg 3 times a day 12 hrs after my last oxy. Schedule to meet with him after I start the suboxone. He recommended getting on an anti depressent and a sleep med. I'm waiting on that. So hoping tomorrow my doc will give oxycodone and next week end I'll do the induction.


    He told you to take 8mg three times a day!! I can induct you on less than 4mg TOTAL!!! He doen't know what he is doing! You can listen to him and you'll end up a suboxone addict.
    Last edited by ddcmod; 02-16-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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    dsac6060 is offline Member
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    That is totally obsurd! 24 mg????? I dont think the worst drug addict in the wolrd needs that much....I would be on my ass. 8 mg was too much for me. The drs make me sick

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    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Okay everythings in place. The only thing is my doc wants me to taper down two weeks on the oxycontin and then start the oxycodone. Then a week after that I will induct myself. Wow I'm glad everything fell into place.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    Okay everythings in place. The only thing is my doc wants me to taper down two weeks on the oxycontin and then start the oxycodone. Then a week after that I will induct myself. Wow I'm glad everything fell into place.



    I don't see why you need to taper the oxycontin two weeks first but I'm willing to accept that over him giving you 24mg of subs.

    At least this way I can help you with the induction when you get your subs and we'll have you fixed up. If you do the induction EXACTLY like I suggest I can promise you I've never had any problems with anyone that I personally inducted getting on and off the subs in just a couple months. And most of those people are still clean and either on the forum or have gone on with their lives still clean lots of them for years.

    The people who show up here and their drs have messed them all up on too much sub for too long have a little more difficult time. But us starting out together will be awesome! All you have to do is be naive enough to do what I ask. I promise if you do that you'll be a success story in a couple months, or thereabouts. Keep me posted how you're doing. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 02-16-2012 at 05:31 PM.
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    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    [deleted - swearing]
    Last edited by ddcmod; 02-16-2012 at 06:58 PM.
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  20. #20
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Hi Bev .... you been hiding from me?
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    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Can't hide can I? I am still where I am so what's to say? Can you tell me why they deleted my entire post? I told the guy docs were ignorant, he should listen to you, follow the protocol.... oh, i think i might have called doctors a name which refers to one's derriere and even changed the letters..... I really wish they would chill out and relax sometimes but yeah, I get it, rules are rules, blah blah blah. I gave the guy decent advice... Oh well... I can't rewrite it but maybe will try again later. i would never hide from you Robert. I just feel ashamed of my static self sometimes so stay quiet....I haven't had any nicotine in 34 days so that something anyway.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by newyorkgal View Post
    Can't hide can I? I am still where I am so what's to say? Can you tell me why they deleted my entire post? I told the guy docs were ignorant, he should listen to you, follow the protocol.... oh, i think i might have called doctors a name which refers to one's derriere and even changed the letters..... I really wish they would chill out and relax sometimes but yeah, I get it, rules are rules, blah blah blah. I gave the guy decent advice... Oh well... I can't rewrite it but maybe will try again later. i would never hide from you Robert. I just feel ashamed of my static self sometimes so stay quiet....I haven't had any nicotine in 34 days so that something anyway.




    I "liked" your post before it was deleted. Yes, I think you called the drs a nasty name. It was the truth but unkind none the less! lol That is awesome that you've gone over a month without smoking! I hate freakin cigarettes as badly as opiates! They kill us just the same, only difference is I've never seen anyone OD from cigarettes. You should be proud of yourself.

    For what it's worth, I think that once you totally smooth out from the nicotine detox it will make that one last little step easier. Keep me posted on what's up! Gosh, if I could just see you finish this off it would make my YEAR!!! Been waiting to see it for a long time!

    Oh, Melinda says HI!! She is engrossed in ancestory.com lately looking up all her family history. She's back into the 1500s now on a bunch of them. She has been living on that site, hasn't been on here, facebook, nothing. She is obsessed! But it's been raining for a month here so we can't get outside to do anything. I've been working at getting back in shape again. Down to what I weighed when I was in high school now! That jacks me up! Lost way over 100 lbs. Don't be a stranger, talk later. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  23. #23
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Good for you about the weight Robert. I am SUCH an addictive personality.... Drugs, cigs, overweight, too much alcohol when I used to drink....if I was rich ???????? would be a prob but I don't have enough money to do it too often though I do love Atlantic City once in a while. I feel like I have the cig thing licked (miracle!!!!!).... I have to do something about weight as my diabetes is out of control and.......... yes....... I gotta do the main thing. If you saw what I take, you'd probably laugh. I look at people complalining of symptoms on 2 mgs., 4 mgs., and I think how is it possible I am down to I don't even know what dose, every OTHER day and the only time I do have symptoms is when I try to push the hours.... Like when I get to 52 hours I feel bad but not even bad, it might be more mental... I don't even know... It all comes back to the my age and the fear which might all be a big cop out but it is what it is, Robert, and I can't control it for now.... It is ALWAYS in the back of my mind inching towards the front of my mind... You will be one of the first to know when I grow some nerve. Off topic, I know you read my post about my 16 year old granddaughter. She has moved to go live with her mom now which is the best thing I think and hope and pray.... She now lives in Willis, Texas.... How far is that from you? Just curious.... Also, I would LOVE to do that ancestor thing. My sister in law did it for my husband's family and they go back to England on one side and Checkoslavakia... I tried but can't go back too far. My mother was born in Romania, came here at aged 4. My dad born in NY but his parents come from Russia. The problem is being Jewish and so many being killed in Europe during WWI then my grandparents had their names changed at Ellis Island so no way to go back beyond them.... Wish I could go back and wish Melinda good luck in her search..... I know she stopped smoking too.... Tell her I said we are two strong women and we will prevail!!!

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Willis is about an hour or so from our house. Let me know if I can help. Seriously! God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Ok I woke up at 4 this morning thinking about all this. Is there anybody thats been in a similar situation as mine and made it through? I haven't read all the post yet, but what I have read is people struggling. And not one person like me. Honestly i'm nervous about taking suboxone.

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    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    pull, I wrote a post which was deleted because I used a bad word.... In a nutshell what I said is you need to listen here to what Robert is saying and follow the protocol here. Doctors are totally ignorant about sub. They only need take an online course on the drug and they are then good to prescribe it. Believe me when I tell you, as RObert also told you, 24 mgs. a day is totally ridiculous. NO ONE needs that. And he said addiction is probably not a problem but depression is? Oh boy. I don't doubt depression but 9 years on oxy and no addiction problem? I don't get it. AND 3 times a day is overkill for sure. Sub has a half life of at least 36 hours so once a day is really enough although many prefer the twice to feel comfortable, 3x a day - NEVER..... Doctors like to make money. Doctors like to keep you on high doses for long times. Sub becomes a disaster when that happens. I speak from experience. I would listen to Robert here before I'd listen to 99.5 percent of sub doctors.
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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    Ok I woke up at 4 this morning thinking about all this. Is there anybody thats been in a similar situation as mine and made it through? I haven't read all the post yet, but what I have read is people struggling. And not one person like me. Honestly i'm nervous about taking suboxone.




    Every single addict in the world asks that question, "Is there ANYONE who's situation is as bad as mine?" Truth is we are all the same.

    I remember when I got clean I was taking over 100 pills a day of some kind including right at 1000 mg a day of oxycodone. Sometimes I would get the oxycontin 80s and chew a handful of them at once. I thought NO ONE could be as bad as me! Truth is if you talk to some of the oldtimers on this forum, Bev, Cheeky, Reid, Azul, the list goes on and on and you'll find that lots of us used STUPID amounts of EVERYTHING and some of us did it for over 30 years. It was over 35 years for me not finally getting clean until I was 50. Can you see an old druggie running my own company and chomping down 100 pills a day, drinking booze night and day, it's a total wonder I didn't die, and I almost did a couple times literally!

    None of us are unique! We are all just addicts with a little variance in our specific stories. But they are all pretty much the same. Hang in there, the suboxone will work IF you do it like I ask you too. I've done this a thousand times, I know how to do it. God bless.
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  28. #28
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by newyorkgal View Post
    pull, I wrote a post which was deleted because I used a bad word.... In a nutshell what I said is you need to listen here to what Robert is saying and follow the protocol here. Doctors are totally ignorant about sub. They only need take an online course on the drug and they are then good to prescribe it. Believe me when I tell you, as RObert also told you, 24 mgs. a day is totally ridiculous. NO ONE needs that. And he said addiction is probably not a problem but depression is? Oh boy. I don't doubt depression but 9 years on oxy and no addiction problem? I don't get it. AND 3 times a day is overkill for sure. Sub has a half life of at least 36 hours so once a day is really enough although many prefer the twice to feel comfortable, 3x a day - NEVER..... Doctors like to make money. Doctors like to keep you on high doses for long times. Sub becomes a disaster when that happens. I speak from experience. I would listen to Robert here before I'd listen to 99.5 percent of sub doctors.
    I agree when it comes down to it, it's all about money. The doc agreed that i'm addicted only because of being on oxy over 9 yrs, but that was not the problem depression was. I was laughing inside while he was telling me this. I looked him in the eye and told him that I'm addicted and need help. He wanted to put me on a anti-deppresion and sleep med, but I don't want to be on a roller coaster ride trying to get off of oxy's. I don't sleep, but 4 to 5 hrs of broken up sleep, so the sleep med might not be a bad ideal. I don't know with changing to suboxone.

    Still uneasy about taking suboxone. He also said that I could start 12 hrs after my last oxy that I should be in withdrawals by then and if the suboxone didn't work to go back to oxy's and try again 16 hrs later. I have to be his first patient for suboxone. From what I've read i should be in moderate withdrawals and he should administer the first dose to see how I react to it. So yeah it's all about money.

    The good thing is I have a script for the suboxone except I forgot to ask for the film, so the tabs will have to do.

  29. #29
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullagnm View Post
    I agree when it comes down to it, it's all about money. The doc agreed that i'm addicted only because of being on oxy over 9 yrs, but that was not the problem depression was. I was laughing inside while he was telling me this. I looked him in the eye and told him that I'm addicted and need help. He wanted to put me on a anti-deppresion and sleep med, but I don't want to be on a roller coaster ride trying to get off of oxy's. I don't sleep, but 4 to 5 hrs of broken up sleep, so the sleep med might not be a bad ideal. I don't know with changing to suboxone.

    Still uneasy about taking suboxone. He also said that I could start 12 hrs after my last oxy that I should be in withdrawals by then and if the suboxone didn't work to go back to oxy's and try again 16 hrs later. I have to be his first patient for suboxone. From what I've read i should be in moderate withdrawals and he should administer the first dose to see how I react to it. So yeah it's all about money.

    The good thing is I have a script for the suboxone except I forgot to ask for the film, so the tabs will have to do.



    pullagnm ....... You read wrong, you don't need to start out with any sleep meds, nor do you need to start taking anti depressants for an induction, and your sub dr sounds like a typical sub dr idiot! He told you that you would PROBABLY be ready in 12 hours and if that didn't work go back on oxy and try it after 16 hours? Now that is a very scienfific approach. Did he also tell you that if you inducted too soon that you were going to go into precipitated w/d and wish you were dead that you'd be so sick? I doubt it very seriously. Do you want to be his guinea pig for research so he learns how to try and do this? There is a scientific approach to doing an induction that is guaranteed with every single induction and you don't get into moderate w/d you get into moderately SEVERE w/d before you begin. That is why you need to score a 26 on the COWS worksheet.

    There is a correct process to follow that works EVERY time, and I offered to do that with you. Do you want me to induct you or do you want to play guessing games with stupid instructions like your sub dr gave you? It's your life. It kind of upsets me when I offer people to sit up all night with them if necessary to make sure they get started off properly, which makes ALL the difference in your entire sub therapy and those people still just want to know a dose to go with. That's why the freakin sub drs blow it so often, because they treat everyone the same. I'm not even charging anything and I offer to guarantee you'll get this done right and you're paying this sub dr and he is playing guessing games with your life.

    Make this easy on yourself, but if you want to score yourself according to how the COWS worksheet says and follow my lead, you will be successful on the smallest dose possible. Do you want to do that or should I back off and let you do this yourself. Just tell me what you want me to do. Because I know how to do it right, I am clean for ten years almost, I've done this a thousand times and have NEVER blown an induction. Let me know. I'm going to stay clean regardless of whether I do the induction or not. I thought that it was kind of a selfless offer to help you, free of charge to KNOW you got it right. I only do this to help people for free, not for an ego boost. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 02-19-2012 at 12:44 AM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  30. #30
    pullagnm is offline Junior Member
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    There seems to be some confusion. I must not communicate well. I've only been to the doc once. I'm just telling some of the stuff he said. I read a lot before I meet with him, so I know he didn't know what he was talking about. He's a physiatrist. Its that spelt right??? My whole goal was to get the script for suboxone. Mission accomplished. I will be following the layout that was posted. I don't want another addiction. He was the only doc available locally. And the only reason he saw me is I keep calling and bugging him. Their office is not opened yet. So I hope this makes since.

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