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Trouble Stabilizing
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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Default Trouble Stabilizing

    Hello everyone! I'm new here, so I apologize in advance if I don't post right! My story is like so many others, so I won't bore y'all with the details. In a nutshell, I have been taking roughly 250-300mg of MS Contin for the past 3 years. I didn't fluctuate my dose much. I went to a local, and very kind and caring sub doc last week and was told to take up to 16mg per day at first to stabilize. I stopped the morphine (switched to MSIR (instant release) on Sat to hopefully speed up the process-didn't work, still had to kick for 49 hours until I felt sick enough to start-was like torture lol) Saturday and induced Monday afternoon. I took 1-2mg every hour or so. I was an emotional basket case all day, until 8-9:00 when I finally felt ok, however it took 12mg to feel better. Yesterday I did 4 mg 3x, as I woke up an emotional mess once again. Today is Day 3 and I have taken 4mg so far today. Besides the occasional chill/sweat (the "Cold Burn" as William S Burroughs put it haha) and some mild leg pain, my physical WD symptoms disappeared by the first night. However I just can't seem to stabilize. I'm emotionally up and down (what do I expect after 3 years of being numb though? I want WHAT I want WHEN I want it and I wanna feel good NOW LOL) The sub certainly helps, but I find myself getting very emotional-seems to come in waves. Waves of uncanny nostalgia and happiness followed by fear and sadness. I want to clean up more than anything, and I'm truly serious about this. I don't want to be on the subs too long, but I also want to stabilize and work on myself before I worry about quitting the sub, for fear of PAWS. for me, PAWS=relapse 100% of the time hehe.

    Anyway, sorry to babble. Point is, I'm having trouble stabilizing. Will these emotional issues start to clear up soon? Maybe I should be taking the 8mg at once, in the morning? I just don't know. What I do know is I'm NOT giving up. I can see how great the sub works, and I love it, just feel I need to find the right dose. I feel like I'm taking too much, but any less and the cravings and sadness hit. Then again it's 11am of Day3-maybe I was expecting more of a quick fix! Robert, if you're available, what do you think? If not, all good as I know this forum is filled with fine people! Thanks for reading!

  2. #2
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    BTetley ....... First off stop taking 4mg three times a day! That is totally the wrong way to do this. Two equal doses is the way to go, some people only dose once a day. But for now let's go with two doses to get you settled down.

    You're on a higher dose than I would have had you on if I had personally inducted you and I assure you that you would be stable right now. But you are where you are so we need to get you stable. I will stick this out with you, I just need your promise that you'll do as I ask. And you won't have any PAWS problems if you listen to me. So many people think they have PAWS and most of the time it's just w/d symptoms from not doing this properly.

    So you've taken 4mg today. Right now take another 4mg, then post back to me early evening. Don't take ANYTHING else until we talk. Are you on any other medications at this time? Need to know what all I'm dealing with here. I'll look for you this evening. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Robert,
    Thanks for the response! You really must truly care about the still-suffering addict to do what you do. I'm a travelling musician, so once I was hooked (immediately) I resigned myself to just being a junkie. I mean, all the greats were junkies, right? Obviously, I don't see it like that anymore; in fact one (of many) reasons I decided to quit is because the opiates took away my flame, and I couldn't enjoy my life and became miserable.
    Ok so I took another 4mg and have since leveled off a bit. I guess it's difficult to break that routine of dosing 3-4 times daily-though with Bupe I absolutely know this is psychological cuz of it's incredibly long acting nature. I'm on no other meds, from the doc or otherwise-gave up the other drugs and alcohol years ago, except grass which I quit last week with the ops, which sucks, but oh well-right now that's the least of my concerns. I wish I'd have discovered you and this site pre-induction. I was certainly aware I have been doing this the wrong way-I was just trying to "get right". Though it's not worth screwing this up and making it harder for myself. I truly, truly appreciate your help.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTetley123 View Post
    Robert,
    Thanks for the response! You really must truly care about the still-suffering addict to do what you do. I'm a travelling musician, so once I was hooked (immediately) I resigned myself to just being a junkie. I mean, all the greats were junkies, right? Obviously, I don't see it like that anymore; in fact one (of many) reasons I decided to quit is because the opiates took away my flame, and I couldn't enjoy my life and became miserable.
    Ok so I took another 4mg and have since leveled off a bit. I guess it's difficult to break that routine of dosing 3-4 times daily-though with Bupe I absolutely know this is psychological cuz of it's incredibly long acting nature. I'm on no other meds, from the doc or otherwise-gave up the other drugs and alcohol years ago, except grass which I quit last week with the ops, which sucks, but oh well-right now that's the least of my concerns. I wish I'd have discovered you and this site pre-induction. I was certainly aware I have been doing this the wrong way-I was just trying to "get right". Though it's not worth screwing this up and making it harder for myself. I truly, truly appreciate your help.



    Just as soon as we get you stable for a few days we'll drop your dose and get you down quickly to where you need to be. You won't even notice it coming off such a high dose. Then we'll slow it up when we get you dosing at the proper amount. Just stick with me and we'll have you on track in no time.

    One of my oldest friends and one of the early people I inducted and helped get clean on this forum is a professional musician. He went by musicman on this forum. He is still clean years after coming here, we are still good friends, and he tells me all the time how much more creative and successful he has become since getting and staying clean. He doesn't drink, smoke pot or anything anymore and he is an awesome musician. Drugs don't make people do anything better or make anyone more creative. They just kill people. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks. I'm sooo ready to just get back on track! I was wondering if anyone knows. Over the weekend, while letting myself get sick to induce, I obviously had virtually no appetite and ate nothing. I'm already pretty skinny (for some reason, when taking the morphine I lost weight), and am a tad bit concerned because my appetite has not fully come back yet. Food tastes much more intense! haha....I'm guessing it's probably no big deal and the appetite will soon return. Is this a common issue?

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Are you taking subutex or suboxone, I didn't notice in your posts? Suboxone has a tendency to affect our appetite more than subutex as suboxone has naloxone in it in addition to buprenorphine. I prefer working with subutex, which is pure buprenorphine, and I believe that anyone who doesn't use opiates IV should be on subutex rather than suboxone. In the years I've done this history has proven to me that naloxone affects a good 15% adversely and appetite problems are one of those side effects.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Oh! Haha dummy I am, I just kept writing "sub". I'm on Suboxone. Honestly I was wondering about that. I go back to the doc next week (he gave me a "two week supply"), and I was thinking about asking for Subutex, simply because I'm quite uncomfortable with putting a "non-active" drug in my body. I've never been an IV guy (though I'm sure it would've progressed there had I made the big switch to >>>>>>-I'm not trying to act like that makes me better than ANYONE) and was hoping for the Subutex. I also heard there's a much cheaper generic buprenorphine out now too.

    Also-this is the time of day that's the worst for me-I used to take my last dose of MS around this time. Ya know, home from work, little something to help "relax". It'd be a lie if I said I don't feel like taking another couple mgs right now, but I KNOW that I don't need it, so instead I'm watching foreign films and eating cupcakes. Literally, cupcakes. LOL
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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Try to get the generic subutex (buprenorphine). It's so much cheaper and lots easier for us to work with. Let me know. If you absolutely have to tonight in a couple hours take 2mg. I don't want to choke you off entirely in one day. Then tomorrow lets go for 10mg for the day, taking two doses, one when you get up and one about this time of day at 5mg each. It will help stabilize you not dosing throughout the day. Keep me posted. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you Robert! Sounds like a plan. Tomorrow I will do no more than 10 mg (5x2). As for now, I'm just working on working out these "emotional" issues I have going on. I don't even know what they are to be honest, but all things must pass. I just have to keep reminding myself this is only my third day on the sub and OFF morphine. I have to keep reminding myself that I am working towards a normal life doing this-taking drugs like I was is NOT. I feel a bit silly at times, because although 250-300mg of MS Contin a day was/is a lot, I know there are people out there with habits that make what I was doing look like piddly child's play, but this has been hard. One of the most difficult things ever. Thank you again-I just decided to go ahead and take 2 more mg like you said, and tomorrow will be my first day dosing twice. I don't want to make getting off Sub any harder than it has to be.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Hi Robert, hope you're well! For me, the sun is shining a little bit clearer and a little bit brighter today than it has been! Now I just have to learn how to drag that sunlight through the night. I took my (roughly-if anything it was prob more like 4.75 or something as i haven't yet mastered the precise science of cutting the films ) 5 mg at 8:00am and left for work and took NO SUBS with me- so I'll HAVE to go til at least 4:00 with out the unhealthy psychological boost of the midday dose. I'm really not worried about it. I'm feeling better today than I have at any point so far this week, and hoping will improve once I'm properly stabilized. I haven't thought about using morphine-it's absolutely AMAZING! Thanks Robert, as I look forward to the day when we can laugh about what an emotional mess I was the first few days, and you can say "I told ya so!" lol. Talk to you soon, take care.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    I feel really good about what the next week or so will bring for you. Just hang in there and let's get you stable and from then on it will be much easier. Sounds like you're on your way now! God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    That makes me feel better and more hopeful. There's nothing I want more than my FREEDOM back and I think this time, with some work, it seems within reach-not some hopeless pipe dream. Talk to you soon, have a great day!

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Hey Robert- Just wanted to let you know I took my second 5mg dose at about 4:00 today. Today has been my best day yet, and I'm getting my appetite back in a serious way! I'm assuming I should stick to the 10mg for a few days? Thanks

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    detroit_boi is offline Member
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    yes go for subutex...and as far as dosing goes, this stuff builts up in your system, so you should have started on a single 8mg dose, and hence gotten the FULL 8mg in you right a way, instead of suffering W/D throughout a day by taking 1-2mg doses 8 times...I was a 7 year >>>>>> IV user(2gm/day=$150-200) and was able to get stable on subutex within first 3 days of 8mg doses. So it CAN be done. And now im 21 days completely clean of opiates so the Subs rout works as long as u stick to it and jump off for good when ready. Good luck to u in watever u decide

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Detroit-
    Have you taken both suboxone and Subutex or were you kept on Subutex? Have you noticed a difference? I really wish my doc would've given me Subutex instead-I'm starting to think I may be in that 15% that's sensitive to naloxone. I've never been an IV user, but I think my doc only does Suboxone.

    When I was 17, I had a 4-month run with >>>>>>-I was shot up once by a girl who shot me up, then shot herself up immediately after. She was a bit of a show-off, per say, and did too much. She OD'd and died that night. It was an absolutely traumatic experience for me and I became terrified of needles. I kicked that 4 month habit cold turkey at an inpatient, and swore >> never touch opiates again.

    For 9 years I didn't touch any, until I was going through a tough time a couple years ago and someone offered me a giant line. I was hooked immediately-again. Something was lost-I didn't ever touch >>>>>> again, but my addict brain convinced
    me that morphine pills were ok. Ridiculous, considering that morphine and >>>>>> are the EXACT same thing by the time they hit those receptors. I'm incredibly ashamed this. I felt like if I at least learned a lesson and stayed clean, perhaps her death wasn't completely in vain; meaning that some good, maybe, could come out of such a horrible, sad and traumatic thing. It's a true testament to the power of addiction, though the fault is ALL mine. I want out while I still have the chance.

    Anyway sorry for the novella-I didn't want to get too much into backstory on here as we've all heard it all before-just needed to vent I suppose. Day 5 of Sub, finally stabilizing after not taking it properly the first 2 days. I feel as if I'm finally back in the driver's seat, and Suboxone, with the help of Robert has put me there. For today anyways; I'll deal with tomorrow when it's today. Thanks for reading to whoever made it through!

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    detroit_boi is offline Member
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    yes i started on suboxone but switched to subutex because i also did not adjust well to suboxone...Not sure why, maybe cuz i kept using even when ON suboxone...So its up to you, really, but i would recommend subutex or pure Buprenorhine...Good luck

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    It's funny how the docs will all swear there's no difference, but there's tons of patients who all say Subutex works better for them. Well common sense will tell you that since the variable here is the naloxone, it must at least affect some people.

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    Ashleyy is offline Member
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    BTetley

    My doctor does not prescribe Subutex unless it is to a pregnant woman. So, I was out of luck. I would have much rather had the Subutex than the Suboxone as well.

    I have never shot anything up, but I did use to snort Roxies before I did Methadone for a few months.

    Best of luck to you...!!
    Ashley

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Best of luck to you as well Ashley, I read your thread! Be careful with the booze-I dont wanna be "that guy", but I'd also hate to see anything happen to you At the very least, I've heard the suboxone/alcohol combo gives ya a wicked headache! Eventually we will have our FREEDOM back!

    Robert-just wondering-how long should I stay on 5 and 5? Thank you!

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTetley123 View Post
    Best of luck to you as well Ashley, I read your thread! Be careful with the booze-I dont wanna be "that guy", but I'd also hate to see anything happen to you At the very least, I've heard the suboxone/alcohol combo gives ya a wicked headache! Eventually we will have our FREEDOM back!

    Robert-just wondering-how long should I stay on 5 and 5? Thank you!




    I want you to be stable for a good three days. Tell me what you think. How long have you felt good? I don't want to jump the gun, I want the rest of the taper to be smooth. Talk to me. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Robert-

    I've actually been feeling good-better than I have in YEARS. I get minor cravings and urges, but nothing I can't deal with by telling myself it will get better, and that it's all a big healing process. My brain chemistry is all out of whack from the years of morphine abuse, and it won't be fixed overnight. Emotionally I've really leveled out. It does seem to make me feel a bit scatterbrained like other opiates, but even that seems to be lessening. I've never been a big 12-step guy, but I've found the "Just for Today" idea to be quite helpful. If I think to much about the big "jump" and how I will feel after, I start to panic a little. Oh well-I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

    Been on a regular schedule dosing twice a day. Roughly 8:00 AM and 4:00PM. Thanks again Robert-you have really helped to give me something that I haven't had in a long time-hope.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    PS-A guy like you who did opiates for 35 YEARS must be kind of chuckling deep down at how bad a guy in his late 20's like me is worrying after 3-3/1/2 year (I really couldnt even tell you exactly when I started anymore-I just know it's in between 3 and 4 years ago) run on Morphine. I COULDNT IMAGINE being addicted to opiates for 35 years, or even a day longer than I was on the morphine. I feel like I'd have eaten a bullet long before then. You are an absolute inspiration.

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    dsac6060 is offline Member
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    Stay with the taper that Robert outlines ... I did it from 8 mg a day to .25 Ina month then jumped. I'm on day 7 clean n a lot of stuff is hitting me now so make sure u do it right bc I may have rushed it. Stay strong bud!!!! Trust me. Believe n stay confident.
    We CAN and WILL do this!!!!! Have faith and stay strong

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTetley123 View Post
    PS-A guy like you who did opiates for 35 YEARS must be kind of chuckling deep down at how bad a guy in his late 20's like me is worrying after 3-3/1/2 year (I really couldnt even tell you exactly when I started anymore-I just know it's in between 3 and 4 years ago) run on Morphine. I COULDNT IMAGINE being addicted to opiates for 35 years, or even a day longer than I was on the morphine. I feel like I'd have eaten a bullet long before then. You are an absolute inspiration.



    Hey, I did hold a cocked and loaded 9mm to my head! Don't think I'm some superman! I have to give the praise to where it goes and God saved me. Otherwise I would surely be dead today.

    I don't like to sound like a preacher on here but I give Him all the glory for me even being able to communicate in complete sentences today. That is the truth! And an addict is an addict is an addict. But He makes all things new! God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Wow man.....I have a shred of spirituality left in me I'm hanging on to! You don't sound like a preacher! Though I do think you deserve a little bit of credit for getting yourself sober but what do I know? Lol whether God is a higher power, or just a Group Of Druggies, I'm definitely reaching out. My way didn't work.

    Anyways, I'm feeling pretty good! I totally understand wanting to just get it over with in a month. I want off asap, but with as little emotional distress as possible. Day 7 with nothing is quite impressive man-hang in there! I can't imagine all those FEELINGS that must be smashing you in the face! Thanks y'all

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Hey Robert! Just wanted to start off by saying I found an OLD thread where you told a shortened version of your story, and WOW man. It was really inspiring. I can't believe you have the patience to be on here as much as you are to help out us addicts. Especially since so many people come on here begging for your help, make one or 2 posts, and then totally disappear. I would love to help people, but doing it as much as you do would prob wear me thin! It's truly amazing how you give back. Anyway-dont mean to sound like a bum kisser haha!

    Here's my question. I was wondering if it would be a huge problem to stabilize myself at a certain dose, (whatever you suggest) and stay there for a month or two so I can get some things in my life in order without worrying about tapering right away. All this has got me obsessing over sub and the taper, and it's still pretty consuming although I have gotten better since stabilizing at 10mg. I'm really feeling good now-I know I will have to do this taper soon, as I don't want to be on this stuff for even a full year, but I feel I need to break this obsession and get back to my LIFE, now that I'm not worrying about getting pills, if I'm gonna get sick, etc etc. What do you think man? Would this not be in my best interest?

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTetley123 View Post
    Hey Robert! Just wanted to start off by saying I found an OLD thread where you told a shortened version of your story, and WOW man. It was really inspiring. I can't believe you have the patience to be on here as much as you are to help out us addicts. Especially since so many people come on here begging for your help, make one or 2 posts, and then totally disappear. I would love to help people, but doing it as much as you do would prob wear me thin! It's truly amazing how you give back. Anyway-dont mean to sound like a bum kisser haha!

    Here's my question. I was wondering if it would be a huge problem to stabilize myself at a certain dose, (whatever you suggest) and stay there for a month or two so I can get some things in my life in order without worrying about tapering right away. All this has got me obsessing over sub and the taper, and it's still pretty consuming although I have gotten better since stabilizing at 10mg. I'm really feeling good now-I know I will have to do this taper soon, as I don't want to be on this stuff for even a full year, but I feel I need to break this obsession and get back to my LIFE, now that I'm not worrying about getting pills, if I'm gonna get sick, etc etc. What do you think man? Would this not be in my best interest?



    I can't tell you what to do. I can only say that if for some reason unknown to me you need to get on a steady dose of sub for a month or two and then taper you should make it lower than 10mg. That is an extremely high dose. I would rather see you do a more simple, easy taper and lower your dose not pushing as hard as I normally do. You really need to get down to less than half of where you are before backing off at all. That is simply my opinion based on my experience. Staying at 10mg is likely to cause problems for you after a period of time at that high of a dose. That is my best advice. Others may disagree but that is how I truly feel. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks Robert. I agree- I would like to come down from this high dose as I'll be kicking my own butt for it later down the line. I'm just so sick of worrying about everything as I just am so tired of OPIATES! Haha....I'm sure many of you understand. So Ive been at my dose of 5mg 2x daily for about a week now. Time to cut 'em back to 7.5mg tomorrow? From what I've read this should be pretty easy as I've only been on Suboxone since last Monday. Thanks-I'm totally willing to take your advice over my own here, as my way GOT me here and addicted in the first place. Thanks
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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    By the way-my follow up appointment is tomorrow. We had talked about trying to get switched over to Subutex, though I'm a bit pessimistic because my first appointment he basically said, "There's a version called Subutex without the naloxone, but we don't really give that out except in the case of hardcore IV users." He doesn't seem to know about the 15% of people who react negatively to it. I really don't feel good about lying to him to obtain it instead of Suboxone, as that's the same old behavior and it would just make me feel bad. I do get sweaty, headaches, clammy hands all day, etc, so I may be in that 15%, or it could just be the high dose of 10mg I'm taking. I'm also nervous that if I asked for it he would think I was trying to get high or something as he really doesn't seem to know much about this whole naloxone thing. I just don't want to get cut off or something. The sub has been a GODSEND so far for my mental health.

    Lord, I'm so sick of opiates. I never want to hear about opiates again after this. Forget the high, I'm just incredibly sick of opiates controlling my thoughts and I REALLY just want to get on my life. I'm at a turning point. Thanks again. Much love to all my junkie and former junkie brethryn hah
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    BTetley123 is offline Junior Member
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    Wait a second, my bad. Got something messed up in my last post. SEE?? HIGH DOSE SUBOXONE MAKES YOU SCUZZUMFUDDLED AND SCATTERBRAINED! LOL The doctor said "We dont give that to IV users" as I had made the mistake of telling him I had used a needle once in the past, though my addiction was to MS Contin ER, which I couldn't have shot up even if I had wanted to. Dummy I am.

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