Sub Jump From Very Low Dose

[jrmellem]

Here are some things I've learned about withdrawal symptoms. The more times a person has detoxed, the harder it is. The older a person is, the harder the detox will be. The longer on the substance, the harder it will be and, most importantly, withdrawals will vary from person to person.

On top of this, the hardest part of tapering off subs for most people will be the last, smallest dosage. In other words, fractions of a mg.

I have come to these conclusions after hours of studying sub. withdrawals as well as going through it. In addition, I have had periods of being clean from other drugs ranging from a few years to over 15 years and have had over 6 years of university training and a degree in behavioral science.

However, I have not come across helpful details of jumping from the fractional dosages of suboxone/subutex for the harder cases, either in this forum or numerous other sources. The trained physician I deal with has suggested to cut down to 1/8 mg. or less and slowly skip days up to three days between dosings. Then discontinue altogether.

Unfortunately, this does not work unless some are willing to go through weeks of extreme discomfort and sleeplessness. If anyone has helpful information regarding this important issue, please post. Thank you.

[korbon]

I have come to these conclusions after hours of studying sub. withdrawals as well as going through it. In addition, I have had periods of being clean from other drugs ranging from a few years to over 15 years and have had over 6 years of university training and a degree in behavioral science.

However, I have not come across helpful details of jumping from the fractional dosages of suboxone/subutex for the harder cases, either in this forum or numerous other sources.

If you're familiar with behavioral science then I would advise you to address your taper off Sub as Behavior Modification and the WD symptoms you endure as negative reinforcement of your addiction.

[jrmellem]

If you're familiar with behavioral science then I would advise you to address your taper off Sub as Behavior Modification and the WD symptoms you endure as negative reinforcement of your addiction.

Well, actually B.F. Skinner's original theories have been renamed Behavior Analysis due to the negative conotations associated with the name Behavior Modification. It sounded too much like brainwashing to the powers that be.

Thanks for the advice though. Unfortunately, it doesn't help with going long term sans sleep, etc. I need to be at least a little rested in order to care for my small children and wife with advanced cancer as well as my own herniated back discs.

[korbon]

Behavior Mod used pain as a motivator, but you've probably had more than enough of that.

Brainwashing is something I associate with 12 Step programs, but that's just me.

Good luck to you and your wife.

[DDAVE45]

i just came off subs.......maybe my thread will help you , i was taking very small doses and had no withdrawls.

[jrmellem]

DDave45, thanks, I'll look for it. I understand coming off many drugs but this suboxone is a new one to me. I think the prolonged half-life of the drug makes it different than others to get off. However, I'm surprised that there aren't many here chiming in with advice regarding the final phases of withdrawal for this drug.

[jrmellem]

DDave45, I clicked on threads started by you and it says none found.

i just came off subs.......maybe my thread will help you , i was taking very small doses and had no withdrawls.

[DDAVE45]

i didnt actually start it ...sorry should of mentioned that. I see you did find it though and any other questions you have please feel free to ask.

[Robert_325]

Behavior Mod used pain as a motivator, but you've probably had more than enough of that.

Brainwashing is something I associate with 12 Step programs, but that's just me.

Good luck to you and your wife.

12 step programs have saved lots of people's lives. You're obviously very well informed about almost all subject matter. There is nothing to do with brainwashing in 12 step programs. Of course that is unless you're a scarecrow without a brain!

[Robert_325]

DDave45, thanks, I'll look for it. I understand coming off many drugs but this suboxone is a new one to me. I think the prolonged half-life of the drug makes it different than others to get off. However, I'm surprised that there aren't many here chiming in with advice regarding the final phases of withdrawal for this drug.

jr ..... the final phase of ending your sub therapy are very basic. Once you've tapered down to at least .25mg, and for some going to .125mg is best as we are all a little different, you go through a process of skipping days to compensate for the long half life of subs which is up to 72 hours. The day skipping process allows time for the long half life of subs to catch up with itself.

You finish your four days until you're stable at your final dosing amount, then skip one day and dose again the next day. Then skip two days followed by another day of dosing. Then skip three days, then dose again. And finally skip four days. Once you've made it past four days very few people have any significant w/d problems. You are clean at this point and have allowed time to compensate for the long half life of the subs.

Over time this has proven to be the most effective way to end the sub taper. Some people have anxiety about skipping days and for that person it's fine to continue to taper down to where you feel comfortable jumping off. I would taper as close to notihing as I could go if I chose that route. I began the day skipping process at .5mg and had no problems, but for most, as I said before, going to at least .25mg or less is easiest. Hope that helps. God bless.

[jrmellem]

I don't have a problem skipping days at .25 mg. The trouble I ran into was when trying to skip days at less than the .125 mg. dosage.

[Robert_325]

I don't have a problem skipping days at .25 mg. The trouble I ran into was when trying to skip days at less than the .125 mg. dosage.

That is strange! Seems like it would be just the opposite. Perhaps you should just continue to use that exacto knife and cut those pieces as small as you can until you can't cut them any smaller and then jump off? Just a thought.

As low as your dose is and if you're still having problems skipping days I would just taper until I could not cut a smaller piece, then call it quits! It's something for you to think about. Let me know if I can help. God bless.

[jrmellem]

I'm guessing that at the little bit higher dose there is more in my system to carry through the skipped days, while at the lower dose there is not as much left when it starts leaving the system, leading to the onset of symptoms. I was just having trouble figuring it all out considering the high potency of the drug and the unusually long half-life.

[Robert_325]

I'm guessing that at the little bit higher dose there is more in my system to carry through the skipped days, while at the lower dose there is not as much left when it starts leaving the system, leading to the onset of symptoms. I was just having trouble figuring it all out considering the high potency of the drug and the unusually long half-life.

That would make the concept of tapering down as low as you can cut it and then jumping off completely make sense to me. That is what I would do in your situation. Hope that helps. God bless.

[jrmellem]

That would make the concept of tapering down as low as you can cut it and then jumping off completely make sense to me. That is what I would do in your situation. Hope that helps. God bless.

OK Robert, I'll try that. Maybe I'll give it a try to skip days when I stabalize a little more at the lower dosage. Thanks to you and others for the help. If anyone has more suggestions, they would be appreciated.

[help4u]

I was on suboxone for 5 years and continually fought getting off them even though I was taking such tiny bits that I wasn't even sure I got them to my mouth. If you are at that point, just DO IT!! You will feel uncomfortable, but just try to put it out of your mind and tell yourself that YOU ARE FREE!!!! Robert suggested Excedrin for migranes for the headache. My Doc gave me a muscle relaxer that is non-narcotic called Tizanidine 2mg to help with sleep and anxiety. What it does is shuts off the adrenaline faucet. I always thought I was a worse addict than everyone else and I was different and I was gonna be stuck forever. I would have been if I hadn't got sick and tired of being sick and tired. I hated cutting the film and having it dissolve on my finger and going to the Doc once a month with all the other addicts on my day off and sit for hours in a stuffy waiting room. My Doc made it unpleasant for all of us for a reason. At the tiny dose, I had w/d EVERY day. Why not just get it over with?

[jrmellem]

Help4U, I tried jumping at the dose I am at but I couldn't sleep hardly at all for over a week. I'm glad it worked for you. I don't think I've gotten to small enough doses and/or for a long enough period of time. I think a lot of the drug stays in the body for a long time due to the extended half-life. And different ages, body types, past histories, etc. affect everyone differently. But I will ask about the Tizanadine. Thanks

[korbon]

12 step programs have saved lots of people's lives. You're obviously very well informed about almost all subject matter. There is nothing to do with brainwashing in 12 step programs. Of course that is unless you're a scarecrow without a brain!

Spoken like a true believer.

I never said AA hadn't helped a lot of people. It's just not for me. I drank for 25 years, hit bottom and it will be 16 years next month since I quit.

I'm talking about the way they go about it. Why do you think they call it a 12 Step Program?

"Fake it till you make it. 60 meetings in 60 days. Just trust and surrender that's all you really need to do. If the Program does not work for you, it's because you did not work the Program."

All those AA slogans are a programming technique. The Big Book, GroupThink, etc. It goes on and on but I'm not going to argue the point.

Bill W. got his idea from the Oxford Group, which is by some standards considered a cult, You can google it if you want to hear about the side of AA you don't hear about in meetings.

[DDAVE45]

Jr......what dose are u currently taking?

[jrmellem]

Dave, I take less than 1/8 mg. per day now.

[numbOne]

Great post/thread 'jrmellem'; despite all of the variances in our usage habits and how we cope - there are common truths and you've nailed them.

Excellent timing as well. I am at this very juncture - actually taking a little more then you, but still trying to get over the last hurdle...