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Robert_325 Questions!
  1. #1
    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Question Robert_325 Questions!

    Hello Robert_325,

    I have just signed up for this forum but have been reading your posts (amongst others) for quite some time now. I can't express my gratitude for your help and support.

    I have many questions for you. I have read your post on "Induction" and find it incredibly comprehensive and accurate (with regard to my limited experience with subs). I am about to go to a suboxone doctor for the first time. From speaking with people and reading posts I find that many of these doctors do indeed just start people off on ridiculously high dosages. I want to avoid this. I would like to induce using the exact process you have laid out.... but I am concerned that the doctor will not be familiar with said process... and will instead dose me at 16mgs or more. I want to avoid that at all costs. How would you suggest going about this? I think most doctors would be quick to disregard a patient's convictions if not entirely insulted. I do not want to use suboxone for maintenance. I'm not sure if I am expressing my question correctly. Does this make sense to you?

    Also... I have been jumping back and forth between methadone and oxycodone. I will use the methadone for several days, then will use oxycodone.. on and on this horrid cycle continues. I have been consistently taking methadone for one and a half years now. Typically, after being on oxycodone for a few days I will need to initially dose at between 20-30mgs. I can quickly get down to 10mg within 4 to 5 days and stabilize at that. Again, let me reiterate how incredibly tired of this roller coaster I am. I am ready to get off. I was able to get clean for almost one year in 2009. I was told time and time again that I would never be able to use responsibly. Being the fool that I am.. I was not convinced of this. I had to learn the hard way and confident that if I am given the opportunity to get clean once more I will not go back. I understand that subs are essentially a tool and there are many other factors involved in getting and staying clean. So my dilemma is as follows: I have a job which I absolutely LOVE. I have just been given a promotion and will be moving cross country. I would like to get stabilized on subs with my first prescription in hand before I make this move. I am going to be leaving in a matter of two to three weeks. As I understand it... I will need to wait for 72 hours and hit a 26 on COWS before induction. I know this may sound ridiculously stupid and in some ways arrogant.. but I am so busy with work, moving and a wedding that I do not want (want being the key word) to go through that 72 hour hell-time. I am prepared to do so if need be as I understand its really a miniscule amount of time with regard to the resulting lifelong benefits. I have some kind of half-baked idea as to what I am going to do and I would like to hear your thoughts on this. As I'm sure you have already guessed, I would like to switch from methadone to oxycodone for three days. Then I will stop taking the oxycodone for 24 to 48 hours. I have taken subs in the past after oxycodone I have always waited no more than 24 hours and have never hit the PWD's (Hail Eris!). However, in the past I was not taking methadone. i am concerned that the residual methadone will affect this. Would that be the case? Or would doing oxycodone for three days be sufficient to outlast the methadone.. in the sense; would I be able to switch from the oxy to the subs quickly. I assume this would be dependent wholly on my COW score? I saw your comment that you don't suggest that people do this because it can result in a long lasting binge and all the adverse reactions associated with such. All that aside.. speaking strictly biologically.. if I were to do exactly as I said and not go on said painful journey would I indeed be able to switch over in a shorter amount of time?

    i apologize if you have answered these same questions, in one form or another, prior to this. I tried to read all of your posts but there were FAR too many.. which is a testament to your knowledge on the subject and the reason why I am asking you directly. I would like to make my appointment today or asap... and formulating my process would affect when I schedule the appt. I also apologize for my long-winded blathering post. I never quite got the whole "brevity is the soul of wit" thing, Thanks again for everything! Your posts (and others) give me hope. Even though I was clean once before... once you start using again you start to forget that life doesn't need to be like this. Simply reading makes me feel better and excited about what the future hold rather than scared and anxious. Thank you so much!

    -cos

  2. #2
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    cos ...... Honestly if you have just been playing with methadone here and there and not on a longterm dose, if you could get on a fast acting opiate like oxy, hydrocodone, percs, or whatever for about a week, the induction process would go lots faster. The methadone history wouldn't be as much of a factor, but that's why I say a week or so to make sure the methadone is totally out of your system.

    I can't say the exact amount of hours it will take you to hit a 26 on the COWS worksheet. You're a 26 when you're a 26, it could be 12 hours, it could be 30 hours. That is why we use the COWS worksheet as it is foolproof. I've never put anyone into precip w/d using the COWS doing an induction the way I do it.

    I would obviously prefer to induct you myself so I know it's done properly. If you have to take your first dose at the dr and he gives you too much, worse case scenario would be me telling you to go a day without ANY subs, then let me re-induct you myself. It's not that big of a deal. I've had people show up here after their dr gave them as much as 32mg during induction day one. I had them stay clean a couple days and re-inducted one guy at 1.25mg from the 32mg. He is one of my best friends now and he's been clean for years. So get the most subs the dr will give you, if he wants to give you a script for taking 24mg a day take it. then you'll never have to go back to him again and we'll have plenty of meds to do all this properly the way the sub therapy plan is written. And I'll have you totally clean in about sixty days and you'll never miss a lick doing anything you need to do. Hope that helps. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  3. #3
    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Default Floored...

    Hi Robert_325,

    Man... I can't express how happy it makes me to simply read your messages. I've read and re-read this several times. Contemplating a new life literally fills me with joy. I cannot express my gratitude for the knowledge you are so willing to share and the support. Being on the roller coaster of opiate addiction I quite often find myself utterly dejected.. and have always seemed to find some semblance of solace by reading the varied and numerous messages of hope on this forum. Ok.. So enough of the flim flam...

    Let me elaborate on a few of the finer details regarding the precarious situation I find myself in. I failed to mention I will not be flying solo on this mission. My bride to be will also be making this switch. While similar, her situation has some notable difference to my own. She has been consistently taking methadone for almost four years now. She has not been on the yo-yo of meds to the extant that I have. She has taken them MUCH more consistently... And will stabilize at between 5-10mgs. If she does oxycodone for a few days.. Which she indeed does once or twice a month... She will initially take 10mgs.. And within 4 days she will start tapering down to 5mgs. Another noteworthy detail is that often I have been taking methadone AND oxycodone rather than one or the other. I find myself taking the methadone as dawn breaks.. Then taking oxycodone on top as the day progresses. A true testament to my stupidity. In any case, I have indeed had methadone at fairly consistent levels since I relapsed almost two years ago.

    Ok.. So I understand what you are saying about getting a larger prescription. So should I go ahead and assume that I will be inducing at a high level and will have another day of sickness following this (referring to the day after the initial high-dose induction)? Let me also quickly describe the timeline I am working with. Ideally, I would like to get through the proper, initial low-dose induction before March 10th. I know I'm cutting it close. I will be calling for appointments today. The reason I am shooting for this day is two-fold. 1)My parents will be returning from abroad on March 10th. Yes... Even though I am 33 I am still a loser living at home! Heheh.. Regardless... I am trying to do this so I can be set BEFORE they arrive. I cannot be sick around them. It will indeed destroy them if they discover I have made the same stupid mistakes AGAIN. Granted, this was my first relapse after my first attempt at clean living... I have EXTREMELY old fashioned parents. I just so happen to be the son of two individuals without vices.. Freaks of nature really. Two of the most wonderful people on the planet.. However neither of them have ever had so much as one sip of alcohol, they don't ??????, they don't smoke and I would be hard pressed to find even one bill they have paid late. I, on the other hand, could be easily confused for one of Satan's hellspawn. If I didn't know my parents I might even be convinced of this. I jump at every passing whim and fancy I may have. Temptation lacks the qualities of temptation when it comes to me. Even temptation is like "god damn dude.. Take it easy man". But I digress...

    I detail these seemingly tangential points because I would like to explain wholly my situation to you, the timeline I am on and ultimately, why I am on it. So... March 10th they will return and I would like both my fiancé and I to have induced by then. I will also be leaving for LA on the 26th for three days of training. I do not want to have to sneak methadone and or oxycodone on this trip. I would like to legitimately have the prescription to avoid any uneccesary issues. I'm sure you understand. I will also be moving 2000 miles either before or after this trip.

    I apologize for explaining all this in my usual, pointlessly long-winded manner. So now for my next set of questions:
    1) Should I go ahead and attempt to get on the highest dose possible? In the sense, should I over exaggerate any residual withdrawal symptoms AFTER I dose? Or should I just play it honest and Que sera sera? Should I be completely honest with the doctor about my history of abuse? Is there a chance the doctor will find that I am not a suitable patient for Suboxone treatment?
    2) Will I have enough meds for both my fiancé and myself? I assume this will be dependent on how much the doctor prescribes me. I figure if I am at least put on 8mg per day and we hopefully stabilize at 4mg or less each.. I will have enough for one month.. And will simply have to go back to the doctor again... and even at that it's not a guarantee that I need go back because I assume we will be tapering down leaving extra subs for month 2. I would like to avoid this if possible which is why I asked whether I should exaggerate my WD's to get more.
    3) Do you really think it's necessary that I get on a fast acting opiate for an entire week? I understand that I am second guessing what you just said. Mainly because I was hoping 3 to 4 days would be sufficient as it will be both of us doing this.. And is generally an EXTREMELY costly affair. Probably close to $70-$100 each day which is why I was hoping to minimize the duration of time spent on the fast acting alternatives. Do you think that my fiancé would need to be on them slightly longer than me due to her extended and more consistent methadone use? I feel like I am trying to have my cake and eat it too... As I don't want to go through 3 days of misery but at the same time don't want to spend ridiculous amounts of money to avoid that. What are your suggestions?
    4) You mentioned that you would like to take me through the induction process yourself. What exactly did you mean by this? Are you saying that you are willing to guide us over the forums? I'm slightly confused... I guess you mean we would communicate through this forum as the induction process unfolds?
    5) Finally, what kind of a timeline would you recommend to do all this. It is already March 1st. As I said, I woul like to go through the induction before March 10... So let's say Friday, March 9th at the latest. With that said... Would you recommend that I start taking the fast-acting opiates on this Friday, March 2nd? Then taking my last dose on Wednesday evening March 7th. Or would this be cutting it too close for a March 9th morning appointment? I'm looking at about 36 hours if I followed that schedule. Let me also mention that both my girl and I have next Wednesday, March 7th off. So maybe it would behoove us to stop Tuesday evening and schedule a Thursday morning appointment. We can also take Thursday off in order to have enough time for the appointment, induction etc.

    Again.,, let me apologize for bombarding you with so many questions. Everything is moving so fast right now. I am also gettin married on March 16th!! All of this has popped up out of nowhere... and I have a real sense of urgency when it comes to jumping off the destructive path I am on. It's taken me to some incredibly terrible places in the past. I am tired of this life and am desperately seeking sweet relief. I am so grateful to have found this forum and you in particular. I am so sorry that I have so many questions which may involve pointless minutiae. I am just confused about a great many things so I understand if you do not feel it necessary to answer all of my questions. I'm sure you are also busy... But fact of the matter is I cannot express how grateful I am to you.. I am happy there are people who have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and are willing to impart with others their knowledge and hope. I would be having anxiety attacks pretty consistently if I had not found you. I am worried and excited at the same time. I am praying that my will coincides with what the universe has in store for me. My will found you and you responded so I am fairly certain it does. From the deepest depths of my soul... I thank you.

    -cos

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    cos ...... don't make this more difficult than it is. No one person has to have a high dose of subs due to their usage history. Once you're at a 26 on the COWS worksheet I can induct anyone at a small dose of sub. I just said get as much medication on the first visit to the dr so you don't have to go back ever again. If you get a big enough script I can induct both of you and in about sixty days you'll both be clean.

    Subs are not hard to use if you know what you're doing. I've done this so many times that I can handle any opiate addict that comes here and is willing to do what I ask them to do. But you need to follow what I say to the letter or we're wasting our time. You do what I say and I guarantee that I'll have you both clean in record time with minimal discomfort. Yes, I think you should be on a fast acting opiate to get the methadone out of your system as that will make the induction process easier, but using the COWS worksheet is the foolproof method to induct with regardless of what you're on at the time. It's just that methadone lingers in your body a long time and a fast acting opiate requires a shorter time to reach that 26 number as it can easily take three days of suffering coming directly off methadone.

    It's very simple and all you have to do is be naive enough to listen and follow instructions. A great portion of my 15000 posts on this forum are related to working with subs. There are a lot of others on the forum that answer lots of questions and it's all I can do almost just to deal with the sub questions. It has become pretty much the standard for opiate replacement therapy. So just go along with me and don't make this more complicated than it is.

    Read the sub therapy link, get to a dr and get the biggest script you can get, and we'll move forward together if that is what you want to do. I ask that you listen to me as I don't have time to waste convincing people I'm right. Let me know when you all are ready to begin. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 03-01-2012 at 08:28 AM.
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    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Default Sounds good!

    Alright buddy... I'm with ya 100%. Stop complicating things... Get as much as I can on my visit.. And contact you when ready for induction. Alright... THANK YOU!! I'll keep you posted!

    -cos
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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Talking Update

    hey Robert,

    Ok so I got my appointment for Monday. They will not be doing the induction there so that works perfectly... as we will be able to induce with you. We have decided that we are going to take our final dose of 10mg methadone on Friday morning. That way, it will be slightly more than 72 hours when I go to my appointment at 10am Monday.

    I just had a root canal done today for which I will be taking Perc 5s. I will take it sporadically through the weekend as needed. Hopefully, this will not affect my induction. I will be sure not to take any after Saturday. I'm so excited man! So should I just shoot you a message when I get home on Monday? Thanks again for everything!

    -cos

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by cOsMiCtRiGgEr View Post
    hey Robert,

    Ok so I got my appointment for Monday. They will not be doing the induction there so that works perfectly... as we will be able to induce with you. We have decided that we are going to take our final dose of 10mg methadone on Friday morning. That way, it will be slightly more than 72 hours when I go to my appointment at 10am Monday.

    I just had a root canal done today for which I will be taking Perc 5s. I will take it sporadically through the weekend as needed. Hopefully, this will not affect my induction. I will be sure not to take any after Saturday. I'm so excited man! So should I just shoot you a message when I get home on Monday? Thanks again for everything!

    -cos


    That sounds awesome my friend! Just yell at me on Monday. Easy with the percs on the weekend. I'll be on and off the forum so don't freak if it takes me a few minutes to reply. I will be here you have my word! I'm very happy it's working like this. We will get you done right! And you'll be shocked at how well this goes. I'll have you on and off these things in a couple months. God bless.
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    dsac6060 is offline Member
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    Listen to Robert, he knows his stuff. Im currently at .5mg from 8mg . Very easy if u follow
    We CAN and WILL do this!!!!! Have faith and stay strong

  9. #9
    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Default Hurtin'

    i wish I could jump out of my skin right now. Only 5 more hours and I'll be at the dr. I hope I can make it. I can't sit still. I feel so horrible.

  10. #10
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by cOsMiCtRiGgEr View Post
    i wish I could jump out of my skin right now. Only 5 more hours and I'll be at the dr. I hope I can make it. I can't sit still. I feel so horrible.



    Let me know when you get your meds and I'll help you with the induction so you get off on the right foot. Sounds like you're close to being ready. Have you scored yourself on the COWS worksheet? God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Hey Robert,

    I was at a 19 before I left. At doc now. About to get done.. Go to pharmacy and then I'll be home. He has given me 25 8mg film to last till the 14th then I have to come back for the full months prescription. Will shoot another message as I get home. Thanks.. So looking forward to this.
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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    You may not even need any more after we induct you and you see what a low dose I get you on. lol We'll wait and see! I'll keep an eye out for you! God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  13. #13
    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    I'm home!! I'll get to scorin' and cuttin' and I'll be awaiting your response!

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by cOsMiCtRiGgEr View Post
    I'm home!! I'll get to scorin' and cuttin' and I'll be awaiting your response!


    I am waiting on you my friend!
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    We both scored at or over 26. (26 and 28)

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Now I've cut them down to .5 peices. They are not particularly even. Let me know what to to next whenever you're ready.

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    Kristin13 is offline Member
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    good luck cosmic!!!!!

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by cOsMiCtRiGgEr View Post
    We both scored at or over 26. (26 and 28)



    Okay then both of you take one .5mg dose. Wait for 90 minutes and post back to me. It's early in the day so this is ideal! We have plenty of time and we are going to go slowly to give each little dose time to work to its full potential.

    When you post back to me in 90 minutes with an update ( I have 11:30 here in Texas, so I'll be looking for your post at 1:00) give me results for both of you. It is most likely that you will not both stabilize at exactly the same dose so I need a status on each of you.

    You guys are on your way! I'll have you feeling good here this afternoon! Just PLEASE stick with me and do EXACTLY as I ask. God bless.
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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Sounds good captain.. Will post back in 1.5 hours

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    dsac6060 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Okay then both of you take one .5mg dose. Wait for 90 minutes and post back to me. It's early in the day so this is ideal! We have plenty of time and we are going to go slowly to give each little dose time to work to its full potential.

    When you post back to me in 90 minutes with an update ( I have 11:30 here in Texas, so I'll be looking for your post at 1:00) give me results for both of you. It is most likely that you will not both stabilize at exactly the same dose so I need a status on each of you.

    You guys are on your way! I'll have you feeling good here this afternoon! Just PLEASE stick with me and do EXACTLY as I ask. God bless.
    I wish that I knew about this forum when I went to the sub doc back in Nov. I would have been through this SUB junk already. He started me out on 8mg a day, geez, im so discouraged at this stuff. If I could start a "Organization" against these drs i so would. Makes me absolutely sick. I can't wait to call my doctor when I finish my taper and tell him whats up lol
    We CAN and WILL do this!!!!! Have faith and stay strong

  21. #21
    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Not feeling good at all.. Probably my own fear and insecurities but I'm feeling worse now. Or maybe this is just the general progression of my wds and the sub hasn't kicked yet. Ugh!

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by cOsMiCtRiGgEr View Post
    Not feeling good at all.. Probably my own fear and insecurities but I'm feeling worse now. Or maybe this is just the general progression of my wds and the sub hasn't kicked yet. Ugh!


    It's been an hour but you shouldn't feel worse. I don't want you to go into precipitated w/d which is what happens if you take it before you're really ready. I'm not questioning your ability to score yourself on the COWS worksheet, I just want to protect you from getting more sick than you can imagine. I've NEVER put anyone into precipitated w/d.

    Check your score again and be really hard on yourself scoring it. Then post back to me. If we jump the gun and you get really sick I wouldn't be able to forgive myself. Worse case scenario is that you just need some more and we'll react according to your scoring. I repeat, be very hard on yourself and post back to me. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Ok.. When I get up and walk around I feel better. As soon as I lay down my legs start jumping. I'll score mysel and get back to you
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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Scoring myself hard I hit 23.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    I think you're right. I think it's in my head. I am quite sure I need more. Let me know when I can. My girl is feeling better. She has stopped shaking and restlessness is gone. However she is still not feeling terribly well.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by cOsMiCtRiGgEr View Post
    I think you're right. I think it's in my head. I am quite sure I need more. Let me know when I can. My girl is feeling better. She has stopped shaking and restlessness is gone. However she is still not feeling terribly well.


    That is what I was afraid of ..... you take more now and you'll get sick. That's another reason I start out with these little doses. Bad news .... my computer is messing up, I'm on another one but have limited access.

    Don't take anything else until you know you're a 26 or you'll get sick as hell. Then take .5mg again. Tell your girl to take .5mg again now. Bear with me as I have to figure out what my computer is doing wrong.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Ok.. She took. I'm waiting. Going to score myself in 10. She wants to know if she can eat something after it dissolves.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    So I don't think I'm going to hit a 26.. As I'm actually feeling even better now. Restlessness is slowly dying.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Robert.. I took another .5. I'm fairly certain it's working now. Symptoms are on the decline. Will message you back at 3:30 to let you know how J is doing and at 4:00 to let you know about myself. She is feeling a lot better FYI.

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    cOsMiCtRiGgEr is offline Member
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    Hi Robert..
    I'm guessing your still having comp problems. I actually FELL ASLEEP! do you know how long it's been since I've slept! Anyways... Please message me back whenever you get a chance. I feel so much better! Not 100% yet... But definitely worlds better than I felt before. My girl is feeling the same way. I do, however, feel like taking another small sliver may push me over.. So let me know if I can do that. That would put me at 1.5mg total!!!! LOLOL! and the doc told me to take 24mgs today!

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