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Really need Suboxone advice from Suboxone experts
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    Default Really need Suboxone advice from Suboxone experts

    My doctor put me on 8mg of Suboxone two weeks ago for pain management. Before that, I had not taken ANY narcotics. I feel very icky high and sick on this medication. I went back to the doctor and told him that, but he insisted that I would feel better if I just stayed on the 8mg dose for another week or two. This medication makes me feel horrible. I would rather go back to taking nothing for my back pain and Rheumatoid Arthritis, etc. I recently found this forum and have been reading through the posts on Suboxone. I found the protocol but I was shocked at how long I will have to stay on this medication without suffering from withdrawals. My question is, since I did not take any narcotics before taking this medicine and have taken it for less than two weeks, is there a way to get off of it quicker without having to suffer the nasty withdrawals I have read about? I am now down to 2mg per day. I sure would love to hear any suggestions. Is Robert available?

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    Strong Desire is offline Advanced Member
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    Hello and welcome! I will put the link to Robert's plan at the bottom of this reply. Read the taper part carefully. I'm not sure if Robert is available or not, but the plan will explain all you need to know. Basically you taper your dose by 25% every 4 days or so.

    Click on the link and read and if you still have questions someone will always be here to answer them. Take care and I hope this helps you for now.

    Hugs,
    Karen


    Sub Taper Link
    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html <------click!

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    Hello, thank you for replying to my post, nice to meet you. You seem to be busy here.
    I have read the protocol. I was hoping someone would know if there was an exception. I was hoping I could do something else because of my circumstances. I haven’t used narcotics and I have only been on this drug for two weeks. Two of the worse weeks of my life. I am down to 2, well 1.5 actually. I was wondering if there was an exception and I wouldn’t have withdrawals if I could do it a faster way.

    This is miserable!! Is there any way to do it faster? -

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    Strong Desire is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by following View Post
    Hello, thank you for replying to my post, nice to meet you. You seem to be busy here.
    I have read the protocol. I was hoping someone would know if there was an exception. I was hoping I could do something else because of my circumstances. I haven’t used narcotics and I have only been on this drug for two weeks. Two of the worse weeks of my life. I am down to 2, well 1.5 actually. I was wondering if there was an exception and I wouldn’t have withdrawals if I could do it a faster way.

    This is miserable!! Is there any way to do it faster? -
    I'm so new here myself and hate to give you any incorrect information. You should wait until one of the experts with subs comes along, and they will. You just have to remain patient as it is kinda slow on the weekends with people living their own lives.

    I am just here trying to make friends and learn as much as I can! I am tapering myself right now from subs and down to .25mg and the day-skipping process. So one more week and I am finished and 100% clean!

    I am guessing that if you haven't used narcotics, and only been on the subs for that short of time, there must be a way for you to taper off them more quickly. I know the protocol with Robert's plan calls for tapering every 4 days or so. Because I have had no problems at all, I have been tapering every 3 days! And that has worked perfectly for me.

    Maybe you could taper even quicker than that to get off them before you get too much of a sub build-up in your system? I'm not really sure and that will take the advice of one of the experts here! So if you can remain real patient, they will see your post and reply to you soon. Take care and happy to meet you and proud to call you my friend!

    Big Hugs,
    Karen
    Last edited by Strong Desire; 07-08-2012 at 07:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Desire View Post
    I'm so new here myself and hate to give you any incorrect information. You should wait until one of the experts with subs comes along, and they will. You just have to remain patient as it is kinda slow on the weekends with people living their own lives.

    I am just here trying to make friends and learn as much as I can! I am tapering myself right now from subs and down to .25mg and the day-skipping process. So one more week and I am finished and 100% clean!

    I am guessing that if you haven't used narcotics, and only been on the subs for that short of time, there must be a way for you to taper off them more quickly. I know the protocol with Robert's plan calls for tapering every 4 days or so. Because I have had no problems at all, I have been tapering every 3 days! And that has worked perfectly for me.

    Maybe you could taper even quicker than that to get off them before you get too much of a sub build-up in your system? I'm not really sure and that will take the advice of one of the experts here! So if you can remain real patient, they will see your post and reply to you soon. Take care and happy to meet you and proud to call you my friend!

    Big Hugs,
    Karen
    Wow, you sure sound like an expert. Congratulations to you on what you have accomplished. From what I have red here that sounds amazing. So way to go for you!! I can't stand how I feel! I don't expect a quick answer. An answer anytime will do for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by following View Post
    Wow, you sure sound like an expert. Congratulations to you on what you have accomplished. From what I have red here that sounds amazing. So way to go for you!! I can't stand how I feel! I don't expect a quick answer. An answer anytime will do for me
    Thank you for saying that about me! But I can assure you I am no sub expert! But I do read lots and I am learning as I go. And from what I have learned the 8mg's the doctor gave you for pain is way too high of a dose. And sub is EXTREMELY strong and powerful. So what is most likely making you feel so bad is the large amount of sub in your system right now.

    So it's very important to get it out quickly before it keeps building in your system. And you haven't even been on other narcotics so it makes no sense that your doctor would give you subs for pain. It has been used in other countries for pain for many years. But it was available in doses of .2mg and .4mg. I read all of this info on this site.

    So you can see if .2mg and .4mg were used for pain in other countries, that 8mg dose is HUGE! And therefore making you feel terrible because your body is not use to any narcotics or opiates.

    You may or may not know this, but Suboxone/Subutex is an OPIATE itself! So the sooner you get off it, the better. And the sooner you lower your dose, the better you will probably feel. Again this is what I have read and learned about here on this forum!

    Hang in there and post all you need to post. I am usually here and will help you all that I am able!

    Hugs,
    Karen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Desire View Post
    Thank you for saying that about me! But I can assure you I am no sub expert! But I do read lots and I am learning as I go. And from what I have learned the 8mg's the doctor gave you for pain is way too high of a dose. And sub is EXTREMELY strong and powerful. So what is most likely making you feel so bad is the large amount of sub in your system right now.

    So it's very important to get it out quickly before it keeps building in your system. And you haven't even been on other narcotics so it makes no sense that your doctor would give you subs for pain. It has been used in other countries for pain for many years. But it was available in doses of .2mg and .4mg. I read all of this info on this site.

    So you can see if .2mg and .4mg were used for pain in other countries, that 8mg dose is HUGE! And therefore making you feel terrible because your body is not use to any narcotics or opiates.

    You may or may not know this, but Suboxone/Subutex is an OPIATE itself! So the sooner you get off it, the better. And the sooner you lower your dose, the better you will probably feel. Again this is what I have read and learned about here on this forum!

    Hang in there and post all you need to post. I am usually here and will help you all that I am able!

    Hugs,
    Karen
    Yes I too am very concered about getting this stuff out of my system. As I said, I have never felt this horrible! When I found this site I had already been tapering but I was just about to stop taking. That was at 4mg. I don't know if it was good that I kept tapering or not. I would like this stuff out as soon as possible. But, I have now been on this for two weeks. I just don't know. I am interested in hearing more. I am off to the pool so I will check later and tomorrow. Have a wonderful evening Karen,
    Lots of best wishes,
    Following.

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    Strong Desire is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by following View Post
    Yes I too am very concered about getting this stuff out of my system. As I said, I have never felt this horrible! When I found this site I had already been tapering but I was just about to stop taking. That was at 4mg. I don't know if it was good that I kept tapering or not. I would like this stuff out as soon as possible. But, I have now been on this for two weeks. I just don't know. I am interested in hearing more. I am off to the pool so I will check later and tomorrow. Have a wonderful evening Karen,
    Lots of best wishes,
    Following.
    I think it was excellent that you began tapering when you did. You are now down to 2mg and that is actually a very high dose because of the strength of this med.

    If it were me I would continue to keep tapering by 25% until you get down to about .25mg and then begin skipping days. Now this is MY OPINION ONLY and hope you understand that.

    Just get stable on each dose for 3-4 days and keep reducing by the 25%. I don't know any of your medical history, or if you take any other medications, and I'm guessing the others will need to know that before they can offer a plan for you. So if you would care to share that info it would really be appreciated by everyone that helps.

    I just know they will ask that of you is all. They ask it of everyone. It is making you feel sick for basically 2 reasons in my eyes.....1st because it is just so strong.....and 2nd because you have not had any other narcotics in your system and having a diverse affect on your body.

    But lets just wait and see what the others will say about it. Have a great time in the pool. I do the same all the time, or swim in the ocean as it's been so hot lately! You have a great evening also!

    Lotsa Love,
    Karen

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    Is there anyone out there that can give me any other advice than the taper protocol. I am really high and sick and hating the doctor really strong right now. I can't work, I can barely care for the kid. I am consantly praying for another answer or any answer that can help me feel better. Do I really have to stay on this narcotic for the next two/three weeks tapering. It being my first narcotic, I am terrified of this withdrawal I am reading about, just terrified. I just don't think I can take this drug anymore. On the other hand, I am terrified of withdrawal. Please give me another alternative!!

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    Default Really upset - will pay robert-325

    I just read the post by Robert_325 to lene54. I am very upset. I asked for similar advice on July 6th. I was put on soboxone and it seemed to be making me sick. I asked for advice on getting off and was just given a taper link by someone that said they were new to the forum. Without having direct advice by a senior member that could help me, I decided it was best to follow the doctor’s advice. He insisted that I increase to 32mg and stay there, that I would feel better soon. I went from the 2mg I was on when I asked for advice here to the 32mg per day. I am still really sick. My doctor said hang in there. I am trying. I now lost my job because I have been sick for over a week. I can’t function.

    I am torn between being really upset with this forum and asking for advice. I just read the post Robert_325 to lene54. Robert_325 never replied to me. But he did to lene54. he told lene54 she could go off the subs, and take hydrocodone to aid with the pain and withdrawal of suboxone and that she could feel better soon. I sure wish I would have been given this advice when I sought it!!!
    So, now that I am at 32mg instead of 2mg can I still do the same thing and be okay? I too have back surgery scheduled for Tuesday August 24th. Can Robert_325 or anyone that is senior and not new please help me this time???? I would appreciate it as I really feel that Robert_325 probably knows better than my doctor. I can’t follow the taper plan and have my surgery!!! I can’t reschedule it … it is with a very busy doctor. Please, please help me this time. I will pay you!!!

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    Default Correction

    Oh my gosh, my surgery is Tuesday JULY 24, August. Again, I hope I can get an experienced reply. I would be happy to pay Robert_325 for his advice. I believe he truely knows his stuff. Of course, I do not expect a reply. I sure would like one!!!

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    Strong Desire is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by following View Post
    I just read the post by Robert_325 to lene54. I am very upset. I asked for similar advice on July 6th. I was put on soboxone and it seemed to be making me sick. I asked for advice on getting off and was just given a taper link by someone that said they were new to the forum. Without having direct advice by a senior member that could help me, I decided it was best to follow the doctor’s advice. He insisted that I increase to 32mg and stay there, that I would feel better soon. I went from the 2mg I was on when I asked for advice here to the 32mg per day. I am still really sick. My doctor said hang in there. I am trying. I now lost my job because I have been sick for over a week. I can’t function.

    I am torn between being really upset with this forum and asking for advice. I just read the post Robert_325 to lene54. Robert_325 never replied to me. But he did to lene54. he told lene54 she could go off the subs, and take hydrocodone to aid with the pain and withdrawal of suboxone and that she could feel better soon. I sure wish I would have been given this advice when I sought it!!!
    So, now that I am at 32mg instead of 2mg can I still do the same thing and be okay? I too have back surgery scheduled for Tuesday August 24th. Can Robert_325 or anyone that is senior and not new please help me this time???? I would appreciate it as I really feel that Robert_325 probably knows better than my doctor. I can’t follow the taper plan and have my surgery!!! I can’t reschedule it … it is with a very busy doctor. Please, please help me this time. I will pay you!!!
    You know what? I am about the nicest person you will ever meet, but your post pi$$ed me off in ways I never thought possible. You are blaming this forum for YOUR problems! Please stop with the self-pity.

    I was the one that gave you probably the BEST advice you will ever receive.....the link to Robert's taper plan! Did you even click on the link and read the plan???? Robert himself wrote that and if he does come on here, he will probably tell you the same thing as I am right now.....to read the link FIRST, and then if you have problems or questions, come back and ASK them, don't give an attitude that YOU are the only person that needs his help right now. He is working with sooooo many people.....at the same time, both on this forum and off of it!

    I'm not really sure if he will help you or not, that's up to him. But I could have helped you more than just give you the link, but you come here with the sense that you need help NOW, you demand it, and that's not the way to approach things here. We all want to help anyone we can, but when a person comes on and DEMANDS help, well then it takes on a whole new meaning!

    I'm sorry about your pain, and about your upcoming surgery, I really am, but that's NOT the fault of ANYONE here for cryin out loud! Re-think your position and if you can come back and ask for help in a more thoughtful manner, then I'm quite sure someone wll jump at the chance. Robert just can't get to every person that requests his help, the man has a life too outside of this forum! Think about that please.

    And you think the loss of your job is partly because Robert didn't respond to you???? Are you kidding me??

    I don't know what else to say. I'm sorry to get so upset, it's not like me at all. I again gave you the link to Robert's plan, just read it carefully and you will know everything you need to know after reading it. Maybe Robert will reply, maybe not, but I sure hope he does and sees this request by you. He may not be as kind as I am right now! Have a great day and blessings to you.

    Karen

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    Sunny mom is offline Member
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    Following, WHY would you still want advice from Robert?! You said you initially followed advice you got here (which yes, was helpfully pointed out to you by Karen, but it was ROBERT's plan!)...when you didn't get a personal post from Robert in a quick enough amount of time, you TOTALLY disregarded that which you read here, and jumped up to 32 mg, and now you're angry wi Karen and this board?? Seriously?! I get that people are anxious and jumpy when they are dealing with addiction, and people here are very tolerant, but you are out of line. Karen is incredibly kind and caring, it's not her fault that you are in the situation you are in, nor is it Roberts...the information is here on the board for anyone to read, you have to help yourself sometimes. Also, if you're in such bad shape, you need to postpone your surgery, I don't care how busy your surgeon is (AREN'T THEY ALL?!)...Karen, Hang in there and don't let this get you down...hugs to YOU!
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  14. #14
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    i can assure you that surgery on 32mg of subs is not going to be possible...

    you had the best info, you were on a low dose. and you got mad and took far too much. that is why you are feeling ''like you cant function''... i was an iv drug user for over 20 years, on methadone, the lot. and i started subs at 12mg and it was far too high. do you get what im trying to say.

    you screwed YOURSELF OVER. you had the golden chance right here, and you could have got off this muck. but you went and listened to a doctor that will have you HOOKED on an opiate, and you have never even been a drug addict...

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    I only asked for a reply to the question I asked. IT IS NOT ADDRESSED IN THE TAPER PLAN. sorry I asked for anything.

    And for God's sake, I AM HUMAN. Yes, going to 32 might have been a mistake. I went with what I was urged to do. I wish I had prayed more and understood better advice. Perhaps in time i will see why he wanted me to be so sick. Yes, I am as sick as you say... if not sicker.

    Thank you for your advice and for being nice. God bless.
    Last edited by ddcmod; 07-13-2012 at 08:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheekysod View Post
    i can assure you that surgery on 32mg of subs is not going to be possible...

    you had the best info, you were on a low dose. and you got mad and took far too much. that is why you are feeling ''like you cant function''... i was an iv drug user for over 20 years, on methadone, the lot. and i started subs at 12mg and it was far too high. do you get what im trying to say.

    you screwed YOURSELF OVER. you had the golden chance right here, and you could have got off this muck. but you went and listened to a doctor that will have you HOOKED on an opiate, and you have never even been a drug addict...
    What, I didn't get mad at anything. I went with my docs advice at his urging. i think most people might.

    For Chist sake people. I am only human. If it was a mistake okay. He said it is the presciption many people with severe back pain are taking. He gave me literature that seemed correct. He urged me. My mistake. Why crusify me over it.

    Can't anyone be nicer here??

    Thank you for your advice.

    God bless.
    Last edited by following; 07-13-2012 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Desire View Post
    You know what? I am about the nicest person you will ever meet, but your post pi$$ed me off in ways I never thought possible. You are blaming this forum for YOUR problems! Please stop with the self-pity.

    I was the one that gave you probably the BEST advice you will ever receive.....the link to Robert's taper plan! Did you even click on the link and read the plan???? Robert himself wrote that and if he does come on here, he will probably tell you the same thing as I am right now.....to read the link FIRST, and then if you have problems or questions, come back and ASK them, don't give an attitude that YOU are the only person that needs his help right now. He is working with sooooo many people.....at the same time, both on this forum and off of it!

    I'm not really sure if he will help you or not, that's up to him. But I could have helped you more than just give you the link, but you come here with the sense that you need help NOW, you demand it, and that's not the way to approach things here. We all want to help anyone we can, but when a person comes on and DEMANDS help, well then it takes on a whole new meaning!

    I'm sorry about your pain, and about your upcoming surgery, I really am, but that's NOT the fault of ANYONE here for cryin out loud! Re-think your position and if you can come back and ask for help in a more thoughtful manner, then I'm quite sure someone wll jump at the chance. Robert just can't get to every person that requests his help, the man has a life too outside of this forum! Think about that please.

    And you think the loss of your job is partly because Robert didn't respond to you???? Are you kidding me??

    I don't know what else to say. I'm sorry to get so upset, it's not like me at all. I again gave you the link to Robert's plan, just read it carefully and you will know everything you need to know after reading it. Maybe Robert will reply, maybe not, but I sure hope he does and sees this request by you. He may not be as kind as I am right now! Have a great day and blessings to you.

    Karen
    Maybe this is why people say drug users are off there rocker. Hmmm, I didn't feel that way though.

    God Bless

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    Sunny mom is offline Member
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    Go away, troll...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by following View Post
    Maybe this is why people say drug users are off there rocker. Hmmm, I didn't feel that way though.

    God Bless
    hey following, guess what...? YOU ARE A DRUG ADDICT...

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    Quote Originally Posted by following View Post
    Maybe this is why people say drug users are off there rocker.
    Following,

    Maybe you don't understand this forum, following. We are not employees of Drugs.com. We are not paid, or under contract, nor obligated to do anything here. We are just ordinary people with some knowledge about drugs and drug addiction, who try to help others.

    Robert has devoted an exceptional amount of time here, but that doesn't oblige him to answer any question that anyone asks. Every word that Robert has ever shared here, is available for you to read. In over 15,000 posts, he has answered just about every question known to man about suboxone. You just need to take the time to read his posts. He is not obliged to offer an individual answer to each person asking for his help.

    As far as then casting a wide net saying, "drug users are off there (sic) rocker" - that was completely uncalled for. You provoked and insulted the people who tried to help you, then acted "entitled" to the help you requested. This isn't your doctor's office. We aren't the neighborhood pharmacy. We're people like you - and when someone comes along acting we "owe" them an answer - we'll react. That doesn't make anyone here "off their rocker."

    Acting 'entitled' is going to tick people off.

    I am sure that Robert has never ever advised anyone to take a dosage anywhere near the 32 mg that you're now taking. You did so all on your own. If you had such respect for Robert, you would have paid attention to the endless words he's left all over this forum. Rather, when Robert's answer wasn't hand-delivered to your thread, you went ahead and took an extraordinary high dose of subs - and now blame him??? If 2 mg made you sick - why in the world would you think 32 mg would be better?

    I think you just shot yourself in the foot. It's never wise to insult the people you turn to for help.

    God bless,
    Ruth
    Strong Desire likes this.

    You will know the truth - and only the truth can set you free.

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    HarrySmooth is offline Advanced Member
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    Hey Karen,
    I'm Harry.....and I sure hope someone is around to "Hold MY hand" the next few days, cause My Dr and I are having a VERY hard time getting my Sub Dose Correct it seems......(after seeing Roberts Way) And WILL be on here for the next few weeks and look forward to meeting some of you! (AND, to get this DANG Suboxone Dosage down PAT!!!!!! UGH....I TOTALLY feel like POO from this stuff...and from what Im reading on here I SHOULDNT be! Dr Overdosed me today! I think he about had it right on yesterday.....(1st day) But just needed to do a Supplemental dose later in day....yesterday he started me on 2-2mg Strips for the entire 24hr period, and I was fine til 10PM....then BOOM! Today he got me with 4-2mg Strips and another one at 10pm which had me WHACKED the entire DAY!!!!! So I dont know WHAT he is going to give me today!.......Any Suggestions??????

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    Oh, and they are giving me these 2/.5mg Strips, is it ok to hold these things with your fingers while cutting it with small scissors? Or use a Razor Blade while leaving it in the foil to cut it down to .5???

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    OMG, ya'll are gonna KILL me for all these questions! But I read and re-read Roberts "Induction" and Im still not clear as to whether we should do one or two doses per day? My 1st day (Monday) he gave me 2-2mg Strips at 2:00pm and they seemed to do fine until around 10PM or so then I started feeling bad again...should this stuff only be dosed ONCE per day or TWICE? ......Sorry if it was there somewhere and Imissed it, i havent sl;ept for 6 days now and cant function or concentrate very well.......HELP!!!!! Getting ready to go to Dr in a lil while and Im gonna tell him 4/2mg Strips should work for me today until I can figger this out!!!! LOL

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    oh GRREAT....they gave me 8mg/2mg Strips!!! THIS is gonna be a challenge cutting THESE down to .5mg!!!!!! DANG!!!

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    Ok....got my COWS sheet ready and 1st entry made! ready to begin my "Induction"!...unfortunatly my Dr gave me 8mg/2mg Strips so cutting them back to a .5 is gonna be a ?????, but just gonna "Eyeball" it, its 10:51 am now and my 1st my 1st score is only a 5 and my last dose of .2mg was early this morning at 1:30am (dont ask, LOL) so I gotta let this baby build to around 26....UGH, (been at +30 past 4 days, havent slept in 120 hours...Eaten very little....so probably hit a 26 late this afternoon or so....keep ya posted if ya care...LOL ya KNOW yer gonna wanna watch me SWEAT!!!! UGH!!!!!

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    i was reading and seen ur request on how to cut the strips.

    just relax as it's very easy to cut up the right dose.

    i have used both the pills and the film and i prefer the film myself.
    it's much easier to cut (in my opinion) into smaller doses over the
    pills and they seem to dissolve quicker and not taste as bad as the
    pills....

    again that's my opinion only.

    i told another member recently how i cut the film....i use a pair of
    tweezers to hold the film and then some womens cosmetic scissors
    to cut it with.

    the cosmetic scissors are real small and my girlfriend at the time had
    some. they make it so easy to cut with. larger scissors are out of
    the question cause u can't see the film very good to cut evenly.

    hold the film firmly but carefully and just keep cutting it in half until
    u get to the desired dose.

    if u cut it 4 times in half u will have 8 pieces of 1 mg each....then
    cut one of the 1 mg pieces and that would be .50 mg...assuming u
    have 8 mg film strips.

    all there is to it...if i can do it so can u!

    hope i helped u a little bit.

  27. #27
    Kikker is offline Advanced Member
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    oops...cutting it in half 3 times would give u the 8
    pieces of 1 mg each.

    cutting it 4 times in half would give u the 16 pieces
    of .50 mg each.

    sorry for the math error.

  28. #28
    HarrySmooth is offline Advanced Member
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    yup....got it all figgered out and laid out and ready! Thanks! Just playing the "waiting game" now building up to 26 or better on the COWS sheet....and aint lookin forward to it!!!!!! UGH

  29. #29
    HarrySmooth is offline Advanced Member
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    No Prob Kikker! I knew what ya meant! THANKS!!!!!!!!!

  30. #30
    Kikker is offline Advanced Member
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    hey...i'm confused here a bit Harry.

    u said that yesterday the doc gave u some subs...
    which was a total of 4 mg.

    and today he gave u some more which was 8 mg total...
    so u had about 12 mg in the last 2 days.

    and now u are trying to get to a 26 score on the cows
    sheet. are u trying to reinduct?

    from what i have read here, and what little i know about
    subs u may not hit that 26 score for days. the subs bind
    tight to ur receptors in the brain.

    and the half life of subs is up to 72 hours. depends on
    the person everyone says....so the subs u have already
    taken may prevent u from getting to that score for some
    time now.

    i'm really not certain about it.

    someone that knows lots more than me is gonna have to
    give u advice on what u should do.

    i do know that u can take the sub in one dose or two.
    no more than twice per day is recommended. same dose
    and same time each day if it's 2 doses.

    i have only dosed once per day myself. i guess it's up to u.
    maybe someone will see these posts and answer.

    best wishes to u Harry...

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