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Opiates to Kratom to Suboxone to...Help
Opiates to Kratom to Suboxone to...Help
After searching for some guidance, and support, I stumbled upon this site. I read a few threads, and decided to sign up. I have zero experience with forums of any kind, and have never posted a thread in my life. So, please bear with me as I may make some mistakes. I'm still unfamiliar with how most of this works. I decided to post my own thread instead of saying all of this on someone elses, so I wouldn't steal any attention away from their problem. I guess I did the right thing...I dunno. I'm positive that cold turkey >> tapering, and maybe even antidepressants have been discussed to death in this forum. If it is easier to direct me to another thread for answers, then please feel free...but i'm mostly just looking for a support network, and someone to talk to, who has experience quitting subs and knows something about the effects of anti-depressants. Anyway, here is a brief backstory illustrating how I ended up where I am at this very moment...with a couple of questions towards the end.
I am a 33 yr old Army veteran with a ninja complex. I am an aspiring writer, and...Wait. That sounds like my resume'. That info has no relevancy here. lol. Ok, here it is... It goes without saying that pain meds were the seed that grew this vine around my throat. Specifically, percs and tabs. They seemed to give me the energy to do the things I needed to do. Did I actually need them? No. I thought that I was a better person with them, however. I thought that they leveled me out, and corrected some kind of chemical imbalance I might have had in my brain, by making me happier, more social, and more energetic. I mean, that's how I was supposed to be, right? That's how all my friends seemed to be, WITHOUT drugs. I considered anti-depressants, but I had grown to really enjoy that opiate buzz, and figured that I could never feel as energetic, or as happy from anti-d's as I did from perc-10's. It wasn't until I moved, and had zero access to pain meds that I realized how addicted I was. We all know what opiate withdrawals are like. After I unwillingly suffered through it all, I turned to alcohol. It was the only thing that helped me get any sleep. I didn't drink a lot, to the point of getting "drunk", but I drank everyday. Eventually, I moved back to my home town, and gradually started back on the pain meds. Before I knew it, most of every check was going towards pills, and I was sick once a month whenever my source went dry. I wanted off. I wanted out...but I couldn't afford to go through wd's and miss any work. Not to mention, I think I was literally AFRAID of the withdrawals...as if they were demons sent to vacuum my soul from it's body, and take their sweet, terrifying time doing it. Then a buddy of mine stumbled across something on the internet called Kratom.
After doing a lot of research on this stuff, I decided to try it. According to what I had read, it was kind of like an herbal opiate, and completely legal...in the U.S. anyway. So...I ordered some, tried it, and loved it. Not only had I found something that would get me off the pills, but it made me feel great, was way cheaper, legal, and easy to get. I made Kratom "tea" (it's more like mud water, and tastes like dirt) about 3 times a day for a COUPLE of YEARS. What I didn't realize (until the first time I ran out after months of having it) was that this too had it's own set of wd's. While it wasn't QUITE as bad as opiate wd's, it was pretty bad after being on it for so long...bad enough that I started to fear running out. It wasn't until my buddy (who was on it too) started experiencing some strange side effects from it, that I actually considered quitting. He got to the point to where he couldn't take it without getting dizzy, and experiencing numbness in his face...unpleasant, scary numbness. A few months later, I started getting dizzy when I would take it as well. I also started having blurred vision, cold sweats, and couldn't keep my eyes still. Quitting time. I quit cold turkey...and it was HARD. I couldn't sleep for anything. I had cold sweats, diarrhea, and hot flashes that went back to cold sweats, body aches, fever, depression, etc, etc. After a week and a half of this, a buddy of mines dad came over and gave me half of a suboxone. I had no idea what it was at the time.
I took half of it. An hour later, I felt completely fine! No WD's! I was amazed at how well it worked. I took the other half, and something even more amazing happened...not only were the wd's gone, but I actually felt GOOD! Suboxone...my savior! Yeah. For the past year and a half, Suboxone has been my..."savior". When the subs wore off, the kratom wd's came back. So, I went and got more subs. My friends dad had a prescription, but he got way more than he needed. So, he would sell his leftovers to me. I started buying from him every two weeks, without fail. When I first started taking it, it made me feel great. I didn't get that opiate buzz...I just felt...good. You guys know what i'm talking about. I felt normal again. Even my usual aches were gone. I stopped drinking...stopped everything. Suboxone straightened me out. It changed my life...for the better...for awhile. Eventually I realized that I had once again traded a vice for a vice, and that this new found freedom from fear, and dependency was just an illusion. I was simply in a shinier, and more lightweight set of shackles now. I realized this the first time my source went out of town, and I had no way to restock. I was out, completely, for 2 weeks. How did that go? It was AGONY. I'll say it again...AGONY. It was enough to motivate me to get a better job, lol, JUST so I would never run out again. Well, things happen. Heck, i've even tried not taking it on purpose a few times for a couple weeks, just to see if I could kick it if I really wanted to...AGONY. Like I said, when I first started taking it, it made me feel the good kind of normal again, and it made my life better...for awhile. Soon I realized that my tolerance was increasing, and I was spending more money on it than I could afford. Not only that, but it didn't seem to have the same effect as it used to. I didn't really feel good anymore. I was just taking it to keep from being sick, which is the intended purpose of the medication, I know...to keep you from being sick, and not necessarily to make you feel good...but I started wondering why I was even taking it. I only felt decent when I had it in my system, and if I didn't, I felt like I was dying. It just...stopped making sense. It was about 6 months ago that I decided I needed to kick suboxone. After a year and a half of taking it, and a collective 3 years of opiate addiction, i'm sick of these chains. I'm sick of the ups and downs. I'm sick of it digging it's claws deeper and deeper into my chemistry as each day passes. I'm sick of being dependent on it...on anything. I'm sick of the money it costs. I'm sick of how content it has made me with how lame my life is, and how it seems to have somehow fogged my brain over time. I want to kick it, but I have no support network, and I know how difficult it is...which is why i'm here.
So, to sum it up...the kratom got me off of the pills, and the suboxone got me off of the kratom. Now, i'm stuck on the suboxone. Don't get me wrong, suboxone can work wonders for you...IF you are on a time sensitive program. The longer you're on it however, the harder it is to kick. I've gotten myself down to 4mg a day, but...now I only have 2 pills left. I recently lost my job due to an arm injury. I know it'll be pointless for me to start a new job if i'm about to go through wd's. So, I filed for unemployment 3 weeks ago, and it should be kicking in soon. I figured if ever there was a time to kick suboxone, it's now. I won't even have access to more subs for another 2 weeks. So, even if I took a quarter a day, the two I have still wouldn't last me. So, i'm doing it. I'm kicking it now. It just makes sense.
My question is this: Should I use the two I have left to taper (albeit a very short taper), or should I go cold turkey?
Also: Does anyone here have experience with anti-depressants? I'm wondering if they might help when this is all over with...granted I make it through.
Last time I tried to kick subs, I kept telling myself "It could be worse. There are people out there with cancer, and freshly severed limbs that are standing up straighter than you. Stop being a wuss. Suck it up. It's not that bad." Then 2 weeks later, i'm buying more JUST so I can SLEEP. That's THE absolute worst part for me - not being able to sleep. Anyway, I've read some stories on here that have really inspired me, and I want to be able to write my own story one day...to give others hope. So, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I know that a week into the wd's, i'll be on here constantly, looking for someone to...just talk to. It won't be long now. I'm looking for friends, support...for the coming battle...and some advice...anything that would make it easier, other than benadryl, walking, and warm baths.
If you actually read all of that, and made it to this sentence...I thank you, sincerely. It is appreciated.
My God, I didn't realize how ridiculously long that was until I posted it. Sorry, peoples :/
Hey there Ego, and welcome to the forums...
You've come to the right place for help and it won't take long for someone to "Jump In" to help you!
First off, let me say that you certainly have a "Knack" for writing! LOL.... Your Post was indeed Long, but the way you write made it a very interesting, and less than arduous read! LOL
OK...lets get to work! You say your down to 4mg of subs a day...are you taking the Pills or the Film Strips?
Film strips are the best to use for "Tapering" and if you can get them, it will be MUCH easier on you for your Taper.
Secondly, why are you getting them from your friends Dad? Do you not have a Doctor in town that you can get Subs prescribed to you? Most "Pain Mgmt Dr's" will prescribe Subs for detoxing off of Opiates so you should try to find a Doc that will prescribe them to you, BUT..(and this is a HUGE "BUT") Do NOT listen to the Dr as per the dosages, as just about ALL Doctors have NO clue on how to prescribe Subs...they want to begin you on WAY WAY to high of a dose....so just agree with them, get your Script, and come back here for dosing advice.
You will want to begin your taper with the LOWEST Effective Dose (LED) If your on 4mg/day you may want to start with that, or try taking less and see how you feel...Try taking 2mg/day and see if you have any W/D symptoms....if you can get by on 2mg/day, you can start there as your LED....Follow me so far? If indeed you DO get the W/D's on 2mg, try 2.5, if you get W/D, try 3.0 etc etc....Lets find your LED first and go from there.
Most people in W/D's from Opiates and going to Subs to taper off are required to be in Full Blown Withdrawals first, which the Doctor and Here in the Forum use what they call a C.O.W.S Sheet, (Clinical Opiate Withdrawal Scale) which places a Number for your W/D's...The Higher the Number, the more Severe the W/D's, and you must attain at LEAST a 26 on the COWS Sheet to begin inducting in to your Subs Therapy, but since your Already ON the Subs, I believe we can skip this, but we need to determine your LED to begin...so lets find that First...(talk about Long winded LOL...Im the KING of Long Winded LOL)
I'm going to give you a link to our Suboxone Taper Method everyone on here uses...I myself have used it to taper off the Subs I was prescribed to get me off Percs/Oxys/Hydros...Here is the link
Please read it Carefully, Print it out, and use it "To the Letter"!!! And myself, and I'm sure someone else will jump in as well to help you thru this Bro....
Your doing the right thing, and I'm Proud of you for taking this HUGE step to get, and to STAY Clean!
Here is a Link to MY thread, if you get bored and have some time on your hands you may want to read it...I had Quite the Journey coming off Oxys, and tapering on the Subs but I am 100% Clean now, (my 1 month anniversary is the 6th LOL) so you might enjoy the read...
Above all, Keep posting here, and lay out your Thoughts, and feelings as you go...Post every day, or many times a day...whatever you feel comfortable with, believe me it HELPS! You will get to know various people here, and they can/will become your friends, and will help you along the way!
Good Luck Man, and know that we are here to help you!!!!
I read it all...You're not alone bro..I got your back..
Originally Posted by EgoPunch
You certainly ARE a writer..
Everybody is different, but since you only have 2 Subs to last 2 weeks (or hopefully forever) you could start your taper by cutting down to 2mgs right now, and then taperring from there. It all depends on you of course, but that makes sense to me since you only have a limited amount of taper Subs at your disposal...You will feel better in my opinion today, and for the next couple days at 2mgs than you will when the rest of the Sub runs out and you have nothing left...Just a suggestion..
I do have a strange question for you though...What's a ninja complex?
Anyways, you sound like you got a hold on this..
A person knows the difference between being ready to quit, and being READY to quit...
I can tell you are READY now...
Stay strong bro, you got this..
it is always much better to taper from subs than it is to go C/T. at the 4 mg ur now on, the symptoms u would have from jumping at such a high dose would most likely not be too easy to take. i assure 4 mg is a HUGE amount of sub as it is extremely powerful. the symptoms would probably be too hard to handle in most cases.
Originally Posted by EgoPunch
it has been done i have read, but if there is any possible way to taper i would definitely take that route.
what i would suggest u do with the 2 subs u have is to perform a very fast, quick taper and see how u do. at the end of it if u find the symptoms too hard to handle u could get the subs u say u can get in 2 weeks and if it is enough of them begin again at a very low dose and taper correctly.
here's what i would do if it were me.....
try to stay on each dose for 2 days and then reduce by the following "modified" dose plan. i would drop to 2 mg immediately.
2.0 mg x 2 days = 4.0 total mg of subs
1.5 mg x 2 days = 3.0 total mg of subs
1.25 mg x 2 days = 2.50 total mg subs
1.0 mg x 2 days = 2.0 total mg of subs
.75 mg x 2 days = 1.5 total mg of subs
.50 mg x 2 days = 1.0 total mg of subs
.375 mg x 2 days = .75 total mg of subs
.25 mg x 2 days = .50 total mg of subs
then u would jump from the .25 mg and be on ur way.
total = 16 days and 15.25 total mg of subs.
it certainly won't be painless and u will have to really want it bad enough to succeed. u certainly sound like u do. in every case i would do it this way rather than jump where ur at now. hope this helps and i certainly wish u the very best. keep posting and let us know how ur doing please. u CAN do this!
Last edited by Kikker; 01-03-2013 at 11:17 AM.
Harry Smooth...thank you for the compliments, and for the support. Here is the reason why I have not gone to a doctor:
According to my friends father, i'm actually spending less money buying the medication from him than if I were to go to the doctor myself. He says that he has to pay his doctor atleast $100 per visit, ontop of the price of the medication. He has to visit the doctor every two weeks. The medication, from what i'm told, is anywhere from $9 - $12 a pill at the pharmacy. He is over-prescribed (as most are), and sells what he doesn't need to help cover the cost of his visits. Maybe he was telling me this to keep my business, as the street price for one sub is a Jackson. Ridiculous! Although, his information is in-line with my own research. I was also buying from him to try and help him out, since he is a friend. However, I can no longer afford it. Since I lost my job, i've spent the last couple months trying to fight my termination. I filed for unemployment, which I have yet to see a check from, and am now completely broke. My GF (of 2 yrs now) and I, live in an apt together, and she is the only reason that i'm not starving on the street somewhere. She hates that I take suboxone and refuses to understand how it will effect me when I stop taking it. She's been quite angry with me for losing my job (which was because of an injury, though that doesn't seem to matter to her), and absolutely will not give me any kind of support on this whole suboxone situation. She says "You'll be sick like you have the flu for a few days. So what. It's your own fault." Whether she actually believes that or not, is of no consequence. She'll be verbally chastising me when i'm at my worst, i'm sure. I already know what you're thinking at this point. Believe me, I know...but i've lost my vehicle, no job...my situation is delicate right now.
To answer your other question, i've been taking the pills, not the strips. For as long as i've been taking it, i've never exceeded 8mg a day. I normally take about three quarters (6mg) a day...normally. When I first started over a year ago, one quarter (2mg) would do me just fine for almost the whole day...not now.
Anyway, I have the taper method open in another window right now, waiting to be read. I did not see the link to your thread though. Did you forget to include it, or am I just blind? Oh, and CONGRATS on being clean! I know it wasn't an easy journey! It's definitely something to be proud of. How do you feel mentally right now? Any depression? That's one reason I was curious about the anti-depressants. I have a hunch that they might help in the long run. Well, i'm gonna go before I write another book here. Thanks again, Harry! I have another question regarding test-cypionate that i'll be posting later, but for now, i'm Swayze. lol. Keep on keeping on, bro! It sounds like you're doing really well!
Buckeye13...thanks for the advice, and for pushing yourself through to the bitter end on my post. lol. It really is a nice feeling to know that someone out there is interested in what's going on with you.
To answer your question: When I say I have a ninja complex, it basically means that I think i'm a ninja. lol. It's more of a joke really. I've been in martial arts since I was a child, and ninjas just kind of came with the territory. I was always fascinated by them and the mystery that surrounded them. I dressed as a ninja every halloween as a child, and sometimes just to freak people out. lol. Today, my "complex" extends no further than my love for cheesy old kung-fu movies, and badly produced ninja flicks...and an occasional sword fight. lol.
Anyway, how are YOU doing? Have you kicked subs, or are you in the process?
Thanks again, bro. I hope all is well.
Kikker...first off, i'm not sure if i'm replying to you guys' posts correctly...my replies just seem to go straight to the bottom and end up nowhere near what I was responding to. Maybe i'm just too accustomed to facebook. Anyway, thank you for your post. Your formula looks as though it would be the most logical way for me to proceed. Will I be strong enough to follow through with it? We'll see. There's a part of me that just wants the wd's to start, so I can get them over with...a part of me that thinks tapering is just going to delay the inevitable, and possibly not help at all on the severity, or duration of the wd's. I could be so wrong on that. I wouldn't know. I've never TRULY tried tapering, but all these people can't be wrong I suppose.
Thanks again for your support, and your advice...and the formula. I have to run, but i'll be on later to make another post.
Oh, and what is your story, if you don't mind me asking...?
What is the difference between "reply to thread" and "reply" (with an arrow, under the persons comment)? Are you guys notified depending on which way I reply, or...hmm. I'm still trying to get the hang of this forum/thread stuff. Bear with me guys. Also, i've been reading some of your threads, and I feel silly now for asking you all what your story is, and how you're doing...I know now how you are doing. I now have that knowledge. lol. Please feel free to answer me anyway, if i've asked you...and even if I haven't. I like to hear what people are going through.
I have a question. Awhile back I was taking testosterone cypionate, and it seemed to enhance the effects of the suboxone. Really, it made it so that 2mg felt like 4mg. So, I was able to take less. Actually, I HAD to take less to keep from feeling weird. I have some test leftover, I just haven't messed with it because I stopped lifting after my injury. I was wondering if it would be risky to take while going through wd's, or if it would actually help...? Also, i'm starting to have mixed emotions about this whole tapering thing. It would be hard to taper down past 1mg with the pills I think. I just don't know, guys. I think i'm actually considering c/t. Maybe not. I don't know.
I took what could have been 3mg (just shy of 4mg) a little over 12 hours ago. I feel fine. I don't feel good, but I don't feel bad. I would like to feel better tho. lol. Normally I would have already taken another 3mg. I think 6mg a day is what I usually do, like I said before...3mg when I wake up, and 3mg about 8 hrs later. Sometimes, i'll split up the last 3mg and take them a couple hours apart. I think i'm just going to try and go to sleep tho. I'll wake up tomorrow knowing that I only had 3.5mg today, and i'll feel good about that. Wow. That seems like a lot after reading what some of you have tapered down to. Maybe cold turkey would kill me. lol. Ehhh.... Nite, peoples.
Swayze my Man!!!!
Your "Flair" with the quill is really refreshing dude! You DO have a way with your writing! Its very pleasant to read your posts!
WOW, your GF sounds like my Ex Wife!!! LOL...Thus, my "EX" wife..heh heh heh (sorry, couldnt resist LOL)
This whole ordeal is tough enough on our own, but with an Unsupportive partner it can be worse I imagine..I'm sorry to hear that man...And also very sorry about your situation Bro...but keep your chin up man, it will get better! I'm following you on the Money situation and why you have to go to your friend, rather than a doc...So we're just gonna have to do the best we can with what we have.
Here is the link to my thread, (Yup, I forgot to insert the link, lol..its that lil ADD thing I have goin LOL)
As far as Mentally, I feel VERY good! But I have always been very "Mentally Strong" and Headstrong as well, No Depression, or Feelings of Guilt or anything like that...I feel Really good.
The Biggest and Worst symptoms I went thru were Lethargy and RLS...The RLS is STILL haunting me, but I am starting to believe that It is an entirely different issue and completely apart from the SUBS now.
In my opinion Swayze, you should follow "Kikkers" advice to the letter! Kikker is one of the most Experienced Members I know on SUBS! He has worked with me from my very 1st day here, and stuck by my side for my entire Journey to be clean, and he helped me IMMENSELY!! He was my Coach, My Mentor, my Strong Shoulder when I was weak, and now my Friend, and trust me when I say he KNOWS what he is doing!!! So Please, listen to him, follow his plan for you, and Trust him! He WILL help you get there Bro! He did it for me and many others here....
I know this is going to be really hard on you man....You have so many other issues going right now, but try to focus on getting clean right now...if the GF is not going to support you then Heck with her...Your gonna have to do it on your own, BUT......You have ME LOL...You have Me, Kikker, Buck, and I'm sure a few more will jump in before its over, so Stay Positive, Stay Strong, and above all Stay on COURSE Bro!
We're all here to help you get thru this!!!! OK???
Oh, and your posting just fine!!! Replying with the "Reply Button" under a post will just put your Post on top of the one your replying to. "Reply with Quote" adds the post your replying to to YOUR reply" and "Reply to Thread" just puts you at the very TOP of the Thread!
Your doing good man! Post AWAYYYYYYYYYYY LOL
Your Ol Pal Harry Von Smoothie
Originally Posted by EgoPunch
Last edited by HarrySmooth; 01-04-2013 at 06:58 AM.
I know what it's like to go through this without the support of anybody in the household...
I'm doing this without anybody in my life knowing about it but y'all and I'm telling you it can be done. If your mind is set on doing this, it will get done. I was ready to quit for a couple years, but ready to quit isn't enough. You have to be READY to quit. I know that sounds stupid, but there's a difference in my opinion...
"READY" means this is real this time. Nothing will stop me..
"ready" means I'll give this a try because I can't get Subs for 2 weeks...
Are you READY? Or are you ready?
I'm guessing since you joined this site, you are READY. Now let's do this bro. Great job on your 3.5mgs yesterday. That's a very good start. Cut it down a bit more today, and so on. The taper is real. Believe the hype.
By the way, I always loved the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I'm sure you do too (if you're old enough to know what I'm talkin' bout)
ur replying correctly. if u want to put the post (quote) from the person ur replying to in ur post just click on the "reply with quote" at the bottom next to the "reply" area. if u click on just reply it will be an empty area, but if uclick on reply with quote the persons message will be in ur reply. hope i made that clear?
Originally Posted by EgoPunch
i've used subs several different times (unfortunately) and if there is any way u can taper i would strongly suggest doing it that way. jumping at higher doses usually equals problems. tapering is not without it's own issues sometimes, after all ur getting off strong drugs. but when the choice is there i would definitely go the taper route.
p.s. woops...just read where Mr. Smooth gave u the posting answers.
Last edited by Kikker; 01-04-2013 at 05:05 PM.
Buck, even after the 2 weeks are up, I still won't have any money to buy even one more sub, no matter how badly I would want to. So, if i'm going to be sick, and go through wd's...it isn't going to be for nothing. Besides, i've been wanting to kick subs for awhile. I just haven't had the time off from work. I was building scaffolds for a living, 10 hrs a day, up and down ladders all day, passing 10 ft metal pans back and forth 100 ft in the air, 6 days a week, building, building, sweating, aching...it was hard work. No way was I about to try and do that while going thru wd's. I probably would've had a heart attack. lol. Now, i'm out of work. It sucks to be broke, and have a woman who doesn't care all over my a**, but this is my only opportunity. I can't be unemployed forever, and hopefully not ever again...so it's now or...sometime much later in life when it'll be 3 times harder for me. When my unemployment kicks in, i'll be in a much better situation to be kicking this thing. Hopefully that happens soon...a few more days, and it will have been a month since I applied.
Originally Posted by Buckeye13
Anyway, what i'm trying to say, lol, is that i'm READY. It's 4pm here, and I JUST took 3mg...my first dose since the 3.5mg I took at 4pm yesterday.
Ninja Turtles? Dude! Ninja Turtles were the shizzy. As I grew older, I alternated on which ones were my favorite. It all depended on who I could identify with the most at that point in my life. I'm sure you know what I mean. Their personalities were so different. Leonardo, the wise and cautious leader. Raphael, the rebel with anger management issues. Donatello, the super smart nerd...and Michelangelo, the mellow and cool stoner type. I think i'm remembering them correctly. If I had to choose a favorite today, it'd probably be...geez. That's actually a difficult question. lol. I almost said Donatello, but I really have no idea.
Moving on. Thanks for following, and continuing to post, bro. I really appreciate it. You're doing really good, and I hope you keep posting.
You're really doing this without anyone around you knowing? Do they know you were even on it to begin with? It seems like it would be extremely difficult to hide the symptoms from someone who is around you everyday. Geez, dude. That's gotta be tough. Good luck, brother. Stay strong.
Thank you, kikker. I enjoy hearing from you, and hope to continue hearing from you...!
Originally Posted by Kikker
I'll probably end up tapering. I just don't think i'll be able to stretch it out too long and get down to super tiny doses. However it goes...it's going to go...and then i'll be out...trudging through h*ll to reclaim my soul. I will be posting alot...I hope. Last time I tried this - ugh, I don't even want to think about it.
Anyway, thanks for your response. It is appreciated more than you know...or maybe you do know. Anyhow, I thank you. I hope you have a great day! Hit us back soon!
i forgot to answer the question u so politely asked me. so the short version is......
Originally Posted by EgoPunch
been an addict for about 18 yrs. used probably every drug possible, but absolutely loved the narcotic pills. i had gotten clean several times and also relapsed several times. never wanted it bad enough before. finally after losing my girlfriend (she gave me many chances), my home, my car, nearly my job (was sooo lucky not to be fired), losing several lifetime friends, and having some family members dis-own me, i knew i had to get it under control.
i used subs a few different times to get clean, and have used them nearly every way possible. tapered slow, tapered fast, tapered by 50%, jumped from a high dose, jumped from low doses, and skipped days too. i was my own experiment with them and learned quite a bit about their use, and what made them work. just didn't want to remain clean bad enough.
i had 4+ yrs clean and relapsed on a one-week bender. i had some subs left over and used them and did a real fast taper. should have went C/T of course. anyway i've been clean since Oct 15, 2012 or about 4 months. i could have said i had 5+ yrs clean and no one would have ever known, but didn't feel that would be right seeing as i had that one weeks relapse. it really feels like i have the 5+ yrs clean tho. been involved in NA/AA for yrs too.
that's basically the short version. i decided to join up here and do my best to help anyone i felt i could. with the combination of lots and lots of reading all i could about subs, and with my own personal experience using them, i feel qualified to safely offer advice and suggestions here.
that's it....and here we are. read ur post and thought i would suggest a taper plan for u with the amount of subs u had to work with. i know u can get off them. being clean is just the very best feeling.
Thank you, kikker, for taking the time to tell me all of that. It gives me a peek into your commitment towards helping others, and is a very inspirational story. I will now make a "reply to thread" post, and give everyone a peek into the life of EgoPunch. lol. Thanks, man. Truly. Please keep posting and helping people like me. It is an honorable thing to do, and is appreciated, even if sometimes people forget to mention that fact.
Harry Smooth...I kind of laugh a little every time I see your name. It's like a contradiction in itself. I don't know if that was your intention, but if it is your actual name...then i'm going to feel like such an a** for finding it funny. I like it tho. Kudos on your handle, bro. I must thank you again for your commitment in helping me, and others in our battles against dependency. You, kikker, and buck, are getting me pretty stoked about making the jump. I just want to get rid of what I have so the wd's can start, and I can get it over with...but I know that it might not be such a great idea to go that route. I really should taper what I have left. I really should. I'm going to go now, before I write a friggin book on this reply, and continue my post in a "reply to thread". That way it's aimed towards errbody as a peek into who EgoPunch is going through, and maybe HAS been through. Thanks for your reply, Harry. I look forward to hearing from you again soon, my new found friend. Keep up the good work that you're doing with yourself and others. You're doing really good, man! ep
I stated my age in the very first post, way up at the top...first line of the 2nd paragraph. Shame! I'm hurt, buck...you have sent me straight into WD's! lol. I didn't catch your age though...?
Originally Posted by Buckeye13
I took 3mg today around 4pm I think...I think. I didn't really make a note of it since I kinda planned on taking another 1mg later on at night to help me sleep. Yeah, I know. Shame. BUT I didn't do it. I've only had 3mg today, and it is now 2am. I think i'm going to try and get some sleep. I have 12mg left (a pill and a half). Normally i'd be feeling pretty good right now, and at ease with the idea of going to bed. I seem to not know what to do with myself right now, and am wondering if i'll be able to go right to sleep. I don't feel bad. I just don't feel good. lol. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to go right to sleep tho. I did last night, and woke up feeling fine. I even waited a couple hours before I dosed that 3mg today. It seems as though I may have made a thread in a low traffic area. Other "topic" areas, seem to have more people commenting...which is what I need. Maybe I can recruit some people to my thread. I don't know. Maybe that long a** intro is a little off-putting. I know that I am not liking "putting off" the wd's. I feel like if I just C/T it, then the sooner I can get past the wd's and get back to trying to find a job. It feels like i'm easing myself into a pot of boiling water, when I should just jump in...because either way, i'm getting cooked. I'll be using this thread as a journal I suppose. I'll make a daily log, long-winded or not, responses or not. It seems to help. I haven't gotten any feedback on my anti-depressant and test-cypionate questions. That's fine I guess. I suppose I already know the answers. Well...goodnight, peoples.
i promise u if u decide to jump from taking 3-4 mg a day u are going to be in a world of hurt. u might not be able to handle the symptoms. 3 mg of sub is more than u can possibly imagine. to have the greatest chance at success i would definitely taper >> jumping (at high doses) if u have subs available to do it with.
i would get a steady taper going right away with the 12 mg u have left. the more u take during the day like the 3 mg u took yesterday, the less u have to taper with obviously. i gave u a plan above that i would have used myelf with the 2 subs u had left. now ur gonna have to alter that a bit if u do decide to taper.
ultimately it's up to u my friend. u have to decide what u want to do. all we can do here is suggest and support u. no matter what u decide to do u have my full support. i just want u clean, how u get there is really of little concern.
have a nice weekend!
Bro...that just gave me goosebumps and teared up my eyes (2 things that never happened when I was Subed-up)
Originally Posted by EgoPunch
I read that part of your post and I was actually proud of myself. I havn't been truely proud of myself for a long time. It's really embarrasing to talk about because, well I'm a guy and don't really talk about shizz like this lol, but it was pretty neat to feel that kind of "regular, every day" emotion that I lost years ago wih the addiction...
As for your question. Yea, I'm doing this without ANYONE knowing. My wife caught me with Percs about 3-4 years ago (after about 4 years of secret perc/oxy abuse) so I quit. I then soon after started taking Subs. 4 years later, here we are. I have 2 kids (2yr, 1yr) and another kid on the way. I don't have the money to be a Sub-Head -- never did -- and I don't need to be riding dirty with kids in the car. It's time for me to grow up. I'm 30 years old, married, with kids!
please excuse me for jumping into the middle of u guys interesting conversation, but when i read what u had written Buck i just had to say something. hope u truly understand my reasoning, and i mean no disrespect to u or anyone else......
Originally Posted by Buckeye13
u mentioned u had probably 400 valium in "the hiding spot" i had to take a very deep breath because i've been there done that too. i had hundreds of different pills (including valium, xanax, etc) stashed all over the place and still find a few in hiding places i had long forgot about....too high to remember actually.
when we are attempting to get clean from any kind of addictive substance that means we cannot be around any kind of mind-altering drugs, including alcohol. with the amount of valium u have in ur possession, it is a huge roadblock to sobriety. it's just way too easy to reach for that pill in times of trouble, or any kind of extenuating circumstances.
just like when a person is using the C/T method of getting clean they need to dispose of ALL addictive drugs in their possession, being on the subs should require to get rid of those valium as they are very addictive. unless they are prescribed by ur doctor for a medical condition, u should dispose of them immediately. u mentioned u were getting them cheap, so i am guessing they were not prescribed to u. i've just been in that same situation way too many times as i said and i would ALWAYS take an additional pill or ten of whatever drug i had in hiding. it's just way too tempting NOT to take them Buck.
as u taper from the subs and know in ur mind the valium is always around, it's just a matter of time before u dive into them. the odds are stacked against u. don't plan on getting rid of them when the subs are finished, get rid of them NOW. no judgement here Buck....just really care is all, and know from experience what can happen.
please give it some serious thought. having to hide them should be a clue!
I read all the sections of this forum but i don't post on the sub site often.
You had two main questions in your first post....taper or ct....antidepressants...
I jumped c/t off 200mcg of fent patches two years ago.....whoa! Big mistake! I should have gone the sub route.
However it was what it was.....it just took so long for me to recover. I know what you are talking about when you say agony.
Jumping from as high a dose as you are on w/subs would be as bad as what i did i'm sure.
it doesn't sound as if you have the time to recover you would need from a jump at that dose.
kikker, buck and harry have all encouraged you to taper and so you should.
i know that feeling of just wanting to get it over with, but you are so right...it's agony and time consuming.
As for the anti-depressants......if you taper down low enough you will have to fight through some lethargy, let your mind "retrain" itself.....
Many folks are on anti-depressants for very good reasons, but it would be hard to say now whether you would need them or not...........go with the flow.....taper and fight through and then see what you think.
Please rethink any idea of jumping at that dose!
Best of luck!
I swear to Harry, as soon as I was writing that, I immediatly thought "Here comes Kikker"
Originally Posted by Kikker
I appreciate that post buddy because I have nobody to talk to to tell me these obvious things..
A few counter points though....
I have so many because rememeber just a month ago I was buying/taking Subs and other meds without any thoughts of quiting. I havn't bought any Valium since about November or so..
Also, they are in a hidding place because my wife has no idea about any of this, and because they are illegal to posses without a script..
That doesn't excuse it, I know, but I'm just letting you know why I had so much, and why they were hidden...Thanks for caring bro...
I'm feeling a little down today (and nauseous). So, i'm going to write a short story about a personal experience. It helps me to write, and maybe the story will help some of you feel a little better :/ Here goes:
So, i'm next in line at Starbucks. I'm standing behind a middle-aged man, who smells like he keeps his cologne in a colostomy bag, and he's sporting what I like to call a circumhawk: bald on top, hair on the sides. There's an asian couple standing behind me, a little far behind me. I'm assuming it's because of the buffet of unpleasant fragrances bozo is putting off, but unawares to me at the time, it was actually because there was someone else in line behind me, in front of them. I start eyeballing the cheesecake behind the glass while i'm waiting for my turn, having an arguement with myself as to whether or not that tiny slice of deliciousness is worth 2 miles of puma to pavement, sweaty, hard-winded pain at the track. "Sir?" says the very cute girl behind the counter. "Sirrrr..." I was in another world. "SIR." I suddenly came to, and replied with "I DON'T WANT IT. WHAT?" "May I take your order?" she says. "OH. Yeah. Sorry. Pumkin Spice Frappuccino, heavy on the ice, please." She was very cute, indeed. My eyes traveled from hers down to her neck, and then respectfully caressed her shoulders before dropping down to her candidly perky...name tag. Sooo, heavy on the ice makes the frap not as thick. I don't like it thick like milkshakes. McDonalds does'em right, but i'm not at McDonalds. If I were, some kid might have warned me that an already p*ssed off midget was standing behind me hoping I haven't eaten mexican recently. Yeah, kids will alert you if there is a midget in the room. They have no filters, ya know. They see something that excites them, and they blurt it out. As it so happens, there was some leftover frapp from a previous order, and I got mine right away, without having to step to the side. Awesome! Not awesome. Waiting could've saved me a tetanus shot later on. Thinking that there was a considerable amount of room between me and the asian ninja couple behind me (atleast the lady was a ninja, as you will soon find out), instead of sidestepping, I stepped backwards in a half-turn motion. Mistake. "OWCH!" is what I heard before stumbling backwards, and dropping my newly purchased, frothy cup of awesomeness into oblivion. I watched wide-eyed as it fell to the floor in slow motion. As I made a desperate attempt to try and hacky sac the cup back towards the immediate vicinity of my mouth, I felt a sharp pain in my left thigh. Keep in mind, I was still unaware of what I had tripped over at this point, because my focus was on the rapidly expanding distance between me and my deliciously caffeinated ticket to pumpkin spice heaven. "RAAAGH!" Yeah, that's me screaming. But why I would yell this next thing out like I had just spotted an escaped and dangerous zoo animal, I have no idea..."MIDGEEET!" The little b*st*rd had latched onto my thigh with his little midget teeth, and was bringing me to the floor. My tasty treat was gone, lost forever, and it was only a matter of time before the midget completely severed my leg with his incisors. "RUN!" someone screamed at me. Have you ever tried to take off in a full sprint with a tiny person attached to your leg? Not the best idea. I went down...and on my way down, I face-planted into the asian lady's chest, screaming in pain the whole time - inadvertantly motorboating her unusually large ninja t*ts. Her boyfriend grabbed my collar, and pulled me back to my feet (midget still on my leg). No, he was not trying to save me. He was setting me up for a kung-fu assault from his slobber shirted girlfriend. An elbow, two slaps, and a knee later, i'm on the floor...but atleast the midget is gone. At which point did he decide it was time to detach himself from my tender leg meat? Who cares. I closed my eyes, and thanked God that it was over. It wasn't. An old lady, who looked much like a christmas tree ornament, waddled over to me, and started saying some stuff about God, and how if I were saved, things like that wouldn't happen to me. As I stared up at her in pain, I noticed that I was the center of attention in a very busy Starbucks. The rabid midget, and ninja couple were nowhere to be found. I suppose they realized they might have over-reacted a bit, and smoke bombed themselves back to Oz. I got to my feet, and limped out of the door...but not before snatching a piece of cheesecake off an unguarded saucer on my way out. I'm still looking for that d*mn midget. True story. Maybe.
Ok. Well, that helped to pass some time. Hope you guys enjoyed that. As I begin to taper off this medication with the one stupid pill that I have, my writing will certainly lose it's humor...but I will try to continue writing. Enjoy your evening, guys...and thanks for reading and responding to my posts.
HAHAHAHAHA.....OK...I officially need to be wearing a diaper now from ur stories!
keep em comin...hahahahaha
Shadowwally... Thank you for reading my posts, and responding. It's nice to have people supporting you...especially people who have some experience with addiction, and getting clean. The more people you have supporting you, I find, the easier it is to stay on the right track. That's one reason why i've considered opening another thread in another "room"...but for now, i think i'm doing ok here. I've made a few friends, and they're awesome. Hopefully you continue to post here with us as well. It would be much appreciated if you did. I've been floating around this site, trying to show my support for others where I can. Soon, it'll be a little more difficult for me to do that, as I will be detoxing hard, and will hardly be able to support myself...but I will still try...especially for the people who have been supporting me.
Originally Posted by shadowwally
One of the main reasons I had gotten on opiates to begin with is because they made me happier, and social...social being a word that was never associated with my personality type, and I wished that it was. Opiates made me social, like I said, and I liked that...plus the happiness it seemed to give me...it's why I thought anti-depressants might be a good thing. Everyone i've ever been close to has died. It started happening when I was 10 years old, and I think it affected me to the point that I may benefit from antidepressants. I was never very energetic either...before the opiates. They made me energetic. So, I figured i'd try ant-depressants and see if maybe they can give me all of those things. Maybe thats what i've been missing. Maybe i've been self-medicating with the wrong meds.
Anyway, bro (i assume u are a bro, lol)...thanks again for your post, and support. I will try to taper what I have left, albeit a very short taper. Take care, man. See you around.
WHY? I couldn't begin to tell you...But it Disturbs me that you even know what a "Pumkin Spice Frappuccino" IS!!!!!!LOL
Originally Posted by EgoPunch
Last edited by HarrySmooth; 01-05-2013 at 07:16 PM.
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