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Maximus Sub Diary
  1. #1
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Maximus Sub Diary

    Well, it seems that rather create multiple new threads, this is the most efficient and easiest--establishing a diary.

    Quick Backstory:
    Brother passed away and got a kidney stone at the same time. No fun. The stone was so small it was undiagnosed for 8 months, sitting at ureto vesicsl junction. It was in my bladder. And the pain was non-stop, sharp, and incapacitating.

    Thought I was dying since since CAT scan showed no sign stone. No infection. No problem urinating actually. Contraction pains continued. Urologist sent me packing and told me to get my backed cracked by a Chiro. He was and still headsnthe urology Dept. Of one of the most well known hospitals in the world.

    Pain continued, Ran out of 4 day supply of Vicodin given to me at ER. And it didn't help. Cnstipated me. I will say the dilaudid IV was oh so quite marvelous at the ER. This helped.

    2 days later cat scan showed no obstructions or stones. Case solved!

    It's idiopathic pain. Who's the idiot--me or the Doctor ?

    Brother passed on 5th after initial stone attack and ER visit.

    Was told that I was fine, and probably just depressed.

    Got a Rx for Demerol. Ran out in 10 days. Got a refill with great objection from Doctor who was just trying to help.

    10 days later--2nd Demerol Refill. He thought I might have a stone even thought CAT scan negated this. How accurate are CAT scans anyway?

    Since I was on my 3rd round of Demerol and still in pain, the Doctor sister I stay overnight in the hospital and do a 24 hour urine test, in hospital.

    They gave me Morphine for the intense pain--it didn't help much and made me itchy. They me an Ambien in a cup, that took about 10 signatures, and 2 hours later, an orderly delivered an innocuous looking pill in a dixy cup. This was Ambien ? I took it. My wife slept in the room with me for support. This was just a 1 night visit.

    The Ambien did nothing. I slowly feel asleep, but with pain. The morphine was all they offered. And it didn't touch the pain.

    I had a jug that I was to urinate in every hour or as much as possible. They would eventually test this for sediment, etc.

    The next day I awakened. Went to work the next day. In pain. But was cut off from the Demorol.

    The next few days I weakened. Chills. Icey feeling, like an ice pick running down my body. Heavy feeling. Like an astronaut suit. More chills. Weakness. Lethargy. Fear.

    I had no idea this was WD from the Demorol--never put 2+2 together.

    Fast forward two months later. Pain. Fatigue. Very very chilly. Lethargic. Lots of pain still.

    This went on for 4 more months.

    6 months later. A new CAT scan technology came out, a Doctor friend of mine begged the original Urologist to re-run the CAT scan test. He said no. He profusely refused. He made his diagnosis and couldn't be wrong.

    My Doctor friend felt that this new technology CAT scan might find something.

    The esteemed Urologist after a lot of resistance agreed, but under protest. And said it would only produce the same results. Nothing.

    They found a tiny 1mm stone lodged in my bladder. The 6 month earlier scan was older technology, and apparently, it was too small to catch.

    I indeed hat a Ureter Stone. Surgery time. The esteemed Doctor said I could linger in my pain longer and try to pass it (that hadnt worked obv), or offered me surgery.

    They did a surgery where the brokenthe stone up with laser beams, and flushed it out. It took 30 minutes. They sent me home with a catheter in my penis. Not fun to urinate through.

    Stone gone though! Yeah!

    Fast forward 1 year later. I developed a habit of taking Darvon daily.this went on for 1 year.

    We moved out of state, and I had run out of my Darvon, and went into WD's.

    8 days into the WD's somehow i got a doctor to prescribe Tramadol.

    I took it daily, about 50mg.

    Fast forward 1 year later. I took between 150-200mg of Tramadol/Ultram, and had a seizure.

    Went to ER, and they told me Tramdaol decreased seizure threshold in some individuals. This was me.

    Outmof the hospital for 10 days, and miserable. Chilly. WD's again. A friend of mine told me about this substance called Subutex. I googled it, and found a local Doctor.

    He prescribed me the substance. About 2-4mg. Over the next 5 years, this dose would grow to 8 mg.

    Tried to taper hear and there but always would get so sick and miss work.

    Then the craziest thing happpened--another Kidney stone. I went to the ER and they forced IV diliaduid. No effect. I told them what I was on, and they looked at me like an Alien, and said they would check with the pharmacologist on staff.

    He said, the pain med would still work, since I was on Subutex not suboxone. Wrong. It didn't work.

    Lots of pain. Labor. Contractions. Another CAT scan, AND, YES, a 3mm stone, on the opposite side as before.

    They sent me home with Flomax, and some Soma, under protest.

    I increased the sub dose from 8 to 10mg. It didn't help. Soma was the only thing that helped. But I had to take it every 3-4 hours. I missed months of work.

    I decided I needed pain control to pass this, and found a doctor to Rx Oxycodone, 30mg, 4-8 per day. I stopped the Subutex. First time in 5 years,

    At Day 3 the Oxy started to work, and with the soma, I felt relief. I drank lots of water, and almost 6 weeks went by. Hated being in the oxy--constipation big time,

    I did some crazy herbal formulas, and all sorts of alternative healing techniques,

    One day, after doing the "Coca-Cola" Kidney stone flush, where you drink 6 cokes in 3 hours, chase it with puree asparagus, and then drink 1 gallon of water.

    I walked my dogs to keep moving.

    And then 3 hours later, a MIRACLE happened,

    I had been urinating with a strainer, so if I passed anything, I would catch it.

    A tiny, strange looking piece of sediment passed through me into the strainer,

    It didn't look like a LAVA rock, but it it e only thing I have ever witnessed shooting like a speeding bullet out of my genitalia.

    It was tiny. I sent it to the lab for analysis, and I came back as sediment. Non conclusive.

    Went into the big city to see the esteemed Urologist from the 1st stone episode, and had a CAT Scan, it showed nothing! I was free from the stone

    BUT

    On somewhere of around 170-300mg of oxycodone. In one week I tapered down, then jumped off. I did this very quickly because I was so grateful to be rid of the stone.

    For 3 days, I was clean. NO OPIATES. I had been off the sub for nearly 6 weeks, and on the oxy I stead for the pain.

    I hated the oxy. I did not get high ever from it, just to make a note. I hated it.

    On day 3 of my sobriety from OPIATES (Oxy, Sub, Darvon, Demoral), I got sick,

    WD's. Chill to the bone, listless, depressed, cried a lot. Could even muster enough strength to take a bath, but I eventually did with great strain and energy output.

    I was weak and cold.

    Was it the 5 years of sub (but I had been off that for 6 weeks). However, I was on al ost 300mg of oxycodone for pain for 6 weeks.

    BTW the major side effect of the Oxycodone for me was heart palpitations. I testes this. If I skipped a dose no heart palls. When I took it, the worst heart palpitations I ever had.

    I went to an anesthesiologist and explained the whole thing to him, and he said my BLood pressure was 200/100. And said I need to go on blood pressure meds.

    The guys couldn't recognize an opiate WD apparently.

    I never had heart palpitations like I had on the oxycodone. Never had them on the sub,

    So this made it easier to taper off the oxy in 1 week.

    Now back to my 3 day sobriety. I was hurting, and I didn't know if it was old half lives of the sub from 6 weeks earlier (I had been in sub for 4 yrs), or the quick oxy step down.

    The heart palpitations were gone,

    But I was horizontal.

    On Day 4, I took a 2mg tablet of Subutex, and cut it in half. I felt 2% better, on 1mg of sub.

    The next day I took more Sub. 2mg.
    The next day I took 4mg of sub.
    The next day I took 6mg of sub,

    I ended up coming out of this one what u recollect to be around 4-6 mg.

    I enjoyed feeling what I considered human again. But was wondering if the sub caused my stone. My bladder still felt irritated.

    I later learned that Subutex and suboxone both affect vasopressin, which is the anti diuretic hormone. It blocks it. This makes you feel like you have to urinate all the time, put never can empty the bladder,

    5 years if sub had caused bladder damage which I hope can one day heal.

    Over the next 6 months I got myself down to 2mg of Subutex.

    By the near I was on 2mg, which I was proud of.

    Fast Forward to the Present
    8 months later, and through this site, I have tapered my way down, as low as .25.

    Thus was very recent, last week. I had a set-back, went up to .875 for one day, then .7mg, then back down to .5.

    Today is Day 3 at .5.

    This is my story. Been around here long enough that I felt it was time to give the background that created a 5 year usage if sub, ranging from 6-10mg (only took 10mg during kidney stone attack, and it didn't even work for pain).

    Robert, Denny, Shrimpboat, Liberator/Jay---you have all been amazing,

    You have all been there. We all took different roads to get here, but all are going for the same destination, permanent sobriety, and ultimate freedom,

    Shrimpboat most recently has slated the dragon at Day 8.

    Liberator and I are both currently at .5.

    Perhaps liberator and I can do this together---even though this is cyberspace, it's real.

    If we taper together, maybe it will encourage, inspire, and enstill us with that extra something to push through this 500lb gorilla, or Dragon.

    Liberator, let me know what you think of my proposition, posted on your diary.

    I say, why not, hey ?

    Either way, I am cool.

    Cheers,

    Maximus

  2. #2
    Denny_D is offline Advanced Member
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    Default

    Max .... that's quite a post. It was a pleasure to read it! You are doing just fine as usual. You must be real close to deciding to finish this thing. The 0.5 dose is really a deciding-what-to-do-dose. Do you continue to taper, or maybe start skipping days?

    Don't have to decide right now, but you are getting there. I can just feel it in your well-written words Max. Thanks for posting and God Bless.....Denny

  3. #3
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Committed

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny_D View Post
    Max .... that's quite a post. It was a pleasure to read it! You are doing just fine as usual. You must be real close to deciding to finish this thing. The 0.5 dose is really a deciding-what-to-do-dose. Do you continue to taper, or maybe start skipping days?

    Don't have to decide right now, but you are getting there. I can just feel it in your well-written words Max. Thanks for posting and God Bless.....Denny
    Jay-Liberator and Shrimpboat, yourself, and Robert, are pointing my compass.

    It points to be done with the sub and get my no-sub membership card!

    Cheers,

    Maximus

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    Default Wow!

    What an epic!

    Don't quit now, Maxy! See how F A R you've come! You're tough!

    I'm waiting in port for you!

    Shrimpboat

  5. #5
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    WOw Max - I have just read your story - what a nightmare. Why don't doctors believe patients? Although most are good obviously, sounds like you had one particularly arrogant one!! I'm glad you've started up a diary cos i kept losing your threads. You didn't say how you are today - I know you were struggling yesterday. I am with you all the way whatever. I have responded to your question on my thread and we are getting there together. But remember how far you've come - a long way!! Please remember to celebrate that. By the way when you say Jay/Liberator, do you mean me? Cos there is someone called Liberator. My other name is Freedom. Take care. Tell us how you are doing today when you've got a minute. Love Jay xx
    Last edited by ddcmod; 09-18-2011 at 03:32 PM.

  6. #6
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default I meant Jay

    Jay, I meant you in terms of partnering up with. Please excuse and Forgive the mistake. I'm gonna hop on your diary and see what you have to say.

    Yes it's an epic, originally triggered by a kidney stone and a death.

    BTW thanks for asking me about today. Because we need to be in the present, and from this point on, will avoid making references to the past, and try to stay in the now.

    Today is Day 4 at .5 and I am ok! Last night I took my supplements. (note I created a supplement list on your diary for you).

    I am fully vertical today, how about you ? Today would be Day 5 for you at .5, right Jay ?

    I am curious if you're on board with me, and we can slay the dragon together, while wearing our heavy titanium-Teflon coated artillery. We will be heavy in weight, but have the arsenal of 2 vs 1 against the imperial dragon.

    Let's beat this bad boy!

    Maximus
    Last edited by ddcmod; 09-18-2011 at 03:31 PM.

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    Default "My opiate freedom diary" post

    Hey friend Max--

    I posted a long note to you about my end game on the other thread "My Opiate Freedom Diary". Just an outline of my endgame journey. Not easy as the mid game.

  8. #8
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Jay, I meant you in terms of partnering up with. Please excuse and Forgive the mistake. I'm gonna hop on your diary and see what you have to say.

    Yes it's an epic, originally triggered by a kidney stone and a death.

    BTW thanks for asking me about today. Because we need to be in the present, and from this point on, will avoid making references to the past, and try to stay in the now.

    Today is Day 4 at .5 and I am ok! Last night I took my supplements. (note I created a supplement list on your diary for you).

    I am fully vertical today, how about you ? Today would be Day 5 for you at .5, right Jay ?

    I am curious if you're on board with me, and we can slay the dragon together, while wearing our heavy titanium-Teflon coated artillery. We will be heavy in weight, but have the arsenal of 2 vs 1 against the imperial dragon.

    Let's beat this bad boy!

    Maximus
    No problem Max. I was just checking. You are doing brilliantly. I hope there is nothing wrong with talking about the past - I don't believe there is and also it helps us to connect with each other as well as to reflect on and eventually heal. You say and 'a death' - that's big!! Your brother! I could be assuming a relationship that wasn't there so my apologies if I am. I often think about what was going on around the time that I started using and stopped feeling. Yes, of course I'm on board with you; today is day 2 or 3 of 0.33. I started off good ...will write on my thread more. I will keep thinking of the titanium teflon coated artillery - fabulous image!! We ARE beating this bad boy!! Love Jay xx PS wonder why moderator edited our posts?

  9. #9
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Titanium-Teflon Coating

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    No problem Max. I was just checking. You are doing brilliantly. I hope there is nothing wrong with talking about the past - I don't believe there is and also it helps us to connect with each other as well as to reflect on and eventually heal. You say and 'a death' - that's big!! Your brother! I could be assuming a relationship that wasn't there so my apologies if I am. I often think about what was going on around the time that I started using and stopped feeling. Yes, of course I'm on board with you; today is day 2 or 3 of 0.33. I started off good ...will write on my thread more. I will keep thinking of the titanium teflon coated artillery - fabulous image!! We ARE beating this bad boy!! Love Jay xx PS wonder why moderator edited our posts?
    Teflon Titanium coated armor.

    The past--I agree, we must discuss it to understand our dependency & addiction. My brother was my best friend, and I was very close. His death just coincided with the stone. So my addiction was not a response because we weren't close---- I had an undiagnosed stone for 6 months. I was in pain, and turned temporarily to opiates.

    The majority of my opiate taking happened after my stone and loss.

    But the stone was my induction. Demorol---4-5 weeks...thus was my favorite.

    But let us keep our titanium-Teflon armor on, and kick butt.

    I also don't know why we were edited. Thought the same thing.

    Teflon on,

    Maximus

  10. #10
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Default You can do it!

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Teflon Titanium coated armor.

    The past--I agree, we must discuss it to understand our dependency & addiction. My brother was my best friend, and I was very close. His death just coincided with the stone. So my addiction was not a response because we weren't close---- I had an undiagnosed stone for 6 months. I was in pain, and turned temporarily to opiates.


    Teflon on,

    Maximus
    Hi Maximus - how are you today? What I meant re your brother was that I thought it was a really big thing - massive emotional trauma and I hoped I wasn't making assumptions when i was saying that. I wasn't cos you told me that now too - best friend. So I wonder for myself anyway, that i will have loads of delayed reactions/emotions as a result of not really feeling very much over the last few years? Don't know what you think of that - or anyone else?
    Anyway, you've gone down today - I hope the decrease hasn't hit you yet.
    Let us know how you are. I'm a bit wobbly today but not surprising as Day 3 on 0.33 or thereabouts. My teflon Titanium coated armour is just about keeping the dragon at bay. screaming banshees making a bit of a noise but I've got ear plugs. Take care. Jay xx

  11. #11
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    hi max - just dropped in and no news from you - hope everything is OK; It's one i the morning here so talk to you tomorrow. love jay

  12. #12
    Denny_D is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    hi max - just dropped in and no news from you - hope everything is OK; It's one i the morning here so talk to you tomorrow. love jay
    Have a good evening Jay. Hope you feel better.

  13. #13
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Hey

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    hi max - just dropped in and no news from you - hope everything is OK; It's one i the morning here so talk to you tomorrow. love jay
    I meant to go down today, but when I reached for the 2 crumbs that would equal .375, when I put it sublingual, it was hard to tell if I had 1 or 2 crumbs.

    So I took a .125.

    Therefore, today, could have taken either .5 or .375---really not sure.

    So it's unknown.

    Tommorow I will make sure to make it clear and have it ready instead of reaching for my daily dose in the wee hours in the dark in the early morning. This is what caused the possible mistake in dosage.

    But it's either another day of.5 or I did go down today to .375.

    I feel fine today. But I always do at Day 1.

    So we shall call tommorow step down day, and Day 1 at .375, since I cannot be sure which dose I took today.

    Keep up your work, and tomorrow with some good luck I'll be in .3 zone.

    Cheers,

    Maximus

  14. #14
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Good to hear from you - I think i did something similar when i was going down. Whatever, you are still heading in the same direction. Warding off the dragons. Love Jay xx

  15. #15
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    Good to hear from you - I think i did something similar when i was going down. Whatever, you are still heading in the same direction. Warding off the dragons. Love Jay xx
    Thank you so much! Yep, were on our way !

    Today was Day 1 at .375. But gosh, I created a bottle of .125 sub-crumbs, and boy are these tiny, and vary in size and shape. So what I think is .125 could easily + or - .5.

    So today I am on dose of sub anywhere between .3 to .38 depending in the crumb.

    At this point in the mid-game, the crumbs that represent .25 and .125 vary in size.

    But it's as close as I can get. It's the Subutex crumb cake taper.

    Each crumb is different in size and shape.

    But we are both have momentum my friend. My plan (we make plans, and god laughs) is to do .375 for the 4-5 days. Then hit the .25.

    Here's my curiosity---it seem that most people on here on there taper usually go from .25 to .125. Heck that's 50% which is a huge cut.

    I haven't heard people going from .25 to .18 to.125.

    Most folks make a huge 50% leap when they go from .25 to .125.

    This has gotta make a HUGE difference. We are doing 25% tapers, and then KABOOM, a 50% reduction.

    Never understood that and why most people do that.

    Then other thing, why not take that .125 crumb, and cut it in half to like .0625.

    I guess probably cause micro crumbs are hard to cut in half like a piece of primb rib.

    We are moving forward on the Sub-Crumb-Cake Taper!

    Chilling on .375 today, and getting thru it for the most part!

    Cheers,

    Maximus

  16. #16
    Liberator is offline Member
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    I say when we are weaning at these small doses its best to reduce when mentally and pshycally ready. If your in the midst of withdrawals or sweats then it would be better to give it a week to see how your feeling before reducing. I spoke to someone recently about this and she did this method, she weanded every 7-10 days from 1mg to 0. This is what worked for her because any reduction any sooner she was getting too uncomfortable. I personally wean when am at least mentally ready, I know we may still experience symptoms no matter after how long we wean down, within the lower doses, but stablising much as possible before reducing can only be benficial when we jump. Oh excercise too, thats one med that most meds can't help withdrawals, speacially sweats, granted. IMHO.
    Last edited by Liberator; 09-20-2011 at 08:48 PM.

  17. #17
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Default congratulationsmax

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Thank you so much! Yep, were on our way !

    Today was Day 1 at .375. But gosh, I created a bottle of .125 sub-crumbs, and boy are these tiny, and vary in size and shape. So what I think is .125 could easily + or - .5.

    So today I am on dose of sub anywhere between .3 to .38 depending in the crumb.

    At this point in the mid-game, the crumbs that represent .25 and .125 vary in size.

    But it's as close as I can get. It's the Subutex crumb cake taper.

    Each crumb is different in size and shape.

    But we are both have momentum my friend. My plan (we make plans, and god laughs) is to do .375 for the 4-5 days. Then hit the .25.

    Here's my curiosity---it seem that most people on here on there taper usually go from .25 to .125. Heck that's 50% which is a huge cut.

    I haven't heard people going from .25 to .18 to.125.

    Most folks make a huge 50% leap when they go from .25 to .125.

    This has gotta make a HUGE difference. We are doing 25% tapers, and then KABOOM, a 50% reduction.

    Never understood that and why most people do that.

    Then other thing, why not take that .125 crumb, and cut it in half to like .0625.

    I guess probably cause micro crumbs are hard to cut in half like a piece of primb rib.

    We are moving forward on the Sub-Crumb-Cake Taper!

    Chilling on .375 today, and getting thru it for the most part!

    Cheers,

    Maximus
    yuo are overtaking me i think as i feel i kneed to be on 0,33 maybe go down to 0,25 on tjurdays or fridayl I will try and focus msch ore on exerise; did two very logn fst waslks all around the credm -unfortunatly some of it leads to my old H friends house and too tweek to visit them; , will commit myself to goijn gto the gym tomorrw. Cant sleep so now taken in addtion 1 zoplcilone. Bight nightl xx

  18. #18
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Cry baby

    It's the crying game. Tears. Crying, emotions. This always happens to me when I hit a certain low dose. Either day 2 or 3 at .375.

    Bad chills. Crying. Everything makes me cry,

    All the emotions stored up surging out at .375.

    Not enough qi to even say anymore.

    Not sure when will go down to .25. I planned on it on Saturday, but will see how I feel.

    Lots of life lived in 5 years with no emotions. A release. Wow.

    Can't keep my face dry. And can't get enough warmth.

    This is good.

    Lots of love,

    Max

  19. #19
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Default What a hero

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    It's the crying game. Tears. Crying, emotions. This always happens to me when I hit a certain low dose. Either day 2 or 3 at .375.

    Bad chills. Crying. Everything makes me cry,

    All the emotions stored up surging out at .375.

    Not enough qi to even say anymore.

    Not sure when will go down to .25. I planned on it on Saturday, but will see how I feel.

    Lots of life lived in 5 years with no emotions. A release. Wow.

    Can't keep my face dry. And can't get enough warmth.

    This is good.

    Lots of love,

    Max
    What a hero you are Max. I'm so impressed. Lots of warmth coming from me....
    Bath? Walk? You are inspiring. So very well done. Thinking of you. Love Jay xx

  20. #20
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Day 3-.375

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    What a hero you are Max. I'm so impressed. Lots of warmth coming from me....
    Bath? Walk? You are inspiring. So very well done. Thinking of you. Love Jay xx
    Day .375 (could even be Day 4)
    Pushing through, noticed more pain in general in lower back, hips....I guess as the sub wears off this is to be expected.

    The chills----boy those are never fun, and the heightened emotions.

    All part of the healing. Truly feeling emotions.

    Keep moving forward!

    How are you doing Jay?

  21. #21
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Day .375 (could even be Day 4)
    Pushing through, noticed more pain in general in lower back, hips....I guess as the sub wears off this is to be expected.

    The chills----boy those are never fun, and the heightened emotions.

    All part of the healing. Truly feeling emotions.

    Keep moving forward!

    How are you doing Jay?
    hi Max; yes cold all the time and crying loads. Well done for being so positive. Love Jay xx

  22. #22
    Liberator is offline Member
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    Could it be possible that these PAWS people talk about can be minimized with a slow taper as we are doing? some have said a long enough taper and a jump from a low dose can ride out some of the PAWS if not most.

  23. #23
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Bee +

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    hi Max; yes cold all the time and crying loads. Well done for being so positive. Love Jay xx
    Well I try my best. I know how hard it is, and I also can relate with some of your job issues, but I havent gone into detail on here.

    Cold & Crying. Sound like a title of a song, eh ?

    Not a good combo. I watched the new TV show the X-Factor last night, and found myself crying at moments. For Christ's Sake. C'mon.

    This tells me that there is something greater at play, and the tears are just begging to come out.

    And somebody asked if a slower taper might prevent WD's...I don't know. Everybody is different. How much sub. How long. Their metabolism. Their constitution.

    But For me, .375 is a cry baby dose. And .25 when I made it that low, was also a cry baby dose.

    Jay, we are doing it and getting done brilliantly. So what if we need to express ourselves on the way. Sometimes its hard to even get on here and type on my Ipad, which auto-corrects every word, and is not really buttons.

    Jay, we will hit the finish line together. This I have a feeling of.

    How are you boy at .25 today ? For me, it was day 3/4 on .25 that got hard.

    But I think it's easier the 2nd time around.

    Keep going bro !

    Maximus

  24. #24
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Default thanks max

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Well I try my best. I know how hard it is, and I also can relate with some of your job issues, but I havent gone into detail on here.

    Cold & Crying. Sound like a title of a song, eh ?

    Not a good combo. I watched the new TV show the X-Factor last night, and found myself crying at moments. For Christ's Sake. C'mon.

    This tells me that there is something greater at play, and the tears are just begging to come out.

    And somebody asked if a slower taper might prevent WD's...I don't know. Everybody is different. How much sub. How long. Their metabolism. Their constitution.

    But For me, .375 is a cry baby dose. And .25 when I made it that low, was also a cry baby dose.

    Jay, we are doing it and getting done brilliantly. So what if we need to express ourselves on the way. Sometimes its hard to even get on here and type on my Ipad, which auto-corrects every word, and is not really buttons.

    Jay, we will hit the finish line together. This I have a feeling of.

    How are you boy at .25 today ? For me, it was day 3/4 on .25 that got hard.

    But I think it's easier the 2nd time around.

    Keep going bro !

    Maximus
    Well done Max. You'll see more about latest on my thread. There's a lot of pent up crying to do!! For first time in 9 months (bar 3 bags) the temptation of the first (H)demon emerged; I guess I learned from that what I REALLY wanted/needed and it was contact - not on a superficial level - but like (I feel) we have here. So I posted here, felt lost, terrified, then went for walk and then phoned my sister (1st time in two years) and after that, still cold, still not wanting to eat (but hungry), heart still hurting, but the demon had gone! WHoopppeee. So thank you and everyone else who has been here for your meaningful contact - it is a life saver. Bye the way is that the US X Factor of the UK X Factor? Anyway, not seen new version, but the UK one has always made me cry; I am sure they will plan it like that - story of poor girl/boy or ugly duckling turning into a swan in front of our eyes; it's a fairy tale for grown ups. PS I am sure you will think this is really unhealthy but cos i can't eat I have been drinking milk with nesquick (banana flavour) in and the old British cup a tea of course. Cheers. You're doing brill Max- remember that. love jay xx

  25. #25
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default No worries

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    Well done Max. You'll see more about latest on my thread. There's a lot of pent up crying to do!! For first time in 9 months (bar 3 bags) the temptation of the first (H)demon emerged; I guess I learned from that what I REALLY wanted/needed and it was contact - not on a superficial level - but like (I feel) we have here. So I posted here, felt lost, terrified, then went for walk and then phoned my sister (1st time in two years) and after that, still cold, still not wanting to eat (but hungry), heart still hurting, but the demon had gone! WHoopppeee. So thank you and everyone else who has been here for your meaningful contact - it is a life saver. Bye the way is that the US X Factor of the UK X Factor? Anyway, not seen new version, but the UK one has always made me cry; I am sure they will plan it like that - story of poor girl/boy or ugly duckling turning into a swan in front of our eyes; it's a fairy tale for grown ups. PS I am sure you will think this is really unhealthy but cos i can't eat I have been drinking milk with nesquick (banana flavour) in and the old British cup a tea of course. Cheers. You're doing brill Max- remember that. love jay xx
    Gosh, during this hunger strike, I worry little about having the occasional chocolate biscuit or something not healthy. I am going for total calories not quality, and have cost so much weight that people are starting to notice. Nesquick with banana flavor sounds wonderful! Will you share ?

    Dude is Taper kills your appetite so much. Your main concerns seem primal: staying warm, trying not to sweat, good sleep at night, lack of night terrors, trying hard not to cry but letting it flo cause you know it's good for ya!

    Day 3 at .375 wasn't too bad. Tommorow is D day. We shall see. If tommorow is not too bad, then Saturday I will shoot for Saturday goin down to .25.

    But why can't we take this down to .0625. I mean take that .25 pill and break that crumb into 4 crumbs.

    I think the lowest amount before the jump. This is where I am going. We shall see if my crumb breaking skills can take a 2mg oval pill, and by breaking it into pieces, get a precise 1/32 of it, which is .0625.

    We are talking sub dust!

    Maximus

  26. #26
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Day 4 - what a difference a day makes

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Gosh, during this hunger strike, I worry little about having the occasional chocolate biscuit or something not healthy. I am going for total calories not quality, and have cost so much weight that people are starting to notice. Nesquick with banana flavor sounds wonderful! Will you share ?

    Dude is Taper kills your appetite so much. Your main concerns seem primal: staying warm, trying not to sweat, good sleep at night, lack of night terrors, trying hard not to cry but letting it flo cause you know it's good for ya!

    Day 3 at .375 wasn't too bad. Tommorow is D day. We shall see. If tommorow is not too bad, then Saturday I will shoot for Saturday goin down to .25.

    But why can't we take this down to .0625. I mean take that .25 pill and break that crumb into 4 crumbs.


    I think the lowest amount before the jump. This is where I am going. We shall see if my crumb breaking skills can take a 2mg oval pill, and by breaking it into pieces, get a precise 1/32 of it, which is .0625.

    We are talking sub dust!

    Maximus
    Well it's in the wee hours, and I am about 68 hrs post last taper, which is why things are changing, Day 4 is usually hard because its at point that we hit the 72 HR mark, which is the half-life, and then WD's start, and kick in.

    I am considering still seeing day 4 thru. And tapering down the next day to .25.

    I gotta get this out. You cry and have chills and just wanna feel human.

    What makes things hard for coming off opiates Is if you have Hi demands around you, and stressors. The camp snoopy model is great because it's like camp for adults.

    Chills, lethargy, crying.....I know Robert jumped from .5, and many others jumped from .25.

    I was gonna be the guy who jumped from either .125 or .0612. But that's theory.

    This stuff never goes as planned.

    We make plans and god laughs. Hard!

  27. #27
    freedom11 is offline Advanced Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Well I try my best. I know how hard it is, and I also can relate with some of your job issues, but I havent gone into detail on here.

    Cold & Crying. Sound like a title of a song, eh ?

    Not a good combo. I watched the new TV show the X-Factor last night, and found myself crying at moments. For Christ's Sake. C'mon.

    This tells me that there is something greater at play, and the tears are just begging to come out.

    And somebody asked if a slower taper might prevent WD's...I don't know. Everybody is different. How much sub. How long. Their metabolism. Their constitution.

    But For me, .375 is a cry baby dose. And .25 when I made it that low, was also a cry baby dose.

    Jay, we are doing it and getting done brilliantly. So what if we need to express ourselves on the way. Sometimes its hard to even get on here and type on my Ipad, which auto-corrects every word, and is not really buttons.

    Jay, we will hit the finish line together. This I have a feeling of.

    How are you boy at .25 today ? For me, it was day 3/4 on .25 that got hard.

    But I think it's easier the 2nd time around.

    Keep going bro !

    Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Well it's in the wee hours, and I am about 68 hrs post last taper, which is why things are changing, Day 4 is usually hard because its at point that we hit the 72 HR mark, which is the half-life, and then WD's start, and kick in.

    I am considering still seeing day 4 thru. And tapering down the next day to .25.

    I gotta get this out. You cry and have chills and just wanna feel human.

    What makes things hard for coming off opiates Is if you have Hi demands around you, and stressors. The camp snoopy model is great because it's like camp for adults.

    Chills, lethargy, crying.....I know Robert jumped from .5, and many others jumped from .25.

    I was gonna be the guy who jumped from either .125 or .0612. But that's theory.

    This stuff never goes as planned.

    We make plans and god laughs. Hard!
    Hey Maximus - I've been up in the small hours this week too; keep having spasms; I have to admit to having a tiny extra couple of specs last night - those spasms just reminded me of CT. But at the moment, I think my lack of sleep is cos of my difficult week rather than taper. Keep calm - one day at a time, that's all we can do. Even one hour at a time. I'm not ready to jump yet. Do you have Nesquick in the States? All it is is milkshake powder (in banana, choc or strawberry). Even if you don't have the nesquick brand you'll have something like that. I hate the made up milk shakes cos they are so sweet and sickly and they put something horrid in it to make it thick. You just get a glass of milk and put a couple of tea spoons in - or more, according to taste. I never drink it normally but have always turned to it at these times. I went to a place overseas once to get clean (is that what camp snoopy is?) and took some with me and they raided my bag and disposed of it cos they thought it was drugs. The trouble is with these external demands and stressors is they are also really easy to turn into reasons not to do the taper/get clean. Remember the story of the tortoise and the hare? This getting clean from H has taken me nine months so far so I am most definitely a tortoise. But with that armouring, the gorilla dragons havent' got a chance. Remember if you post in the middle of the night, I'll be here cos it's my day time. So you have 24 hour support!! Love Jay xx

  28. #28
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default .25 Today

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom11 View Post
    Hey Maximus - I've been up in the small hours this week too; keep having spasms; I have to admit to having a tiny extra couple of specs last night - those spasms just reminded me of CT. But at the moment, I think my lack of sleep is cos of my difficult week rather than taper. Keep calm - one day at a time, that's all we can do. Even one hour at a time. I'm not ready to jump yet. Do you have Nesquick in the States? All it is is milkshake powder (in banana, choc or strawberry). Even if you don't have the nesquick brand you'll have something like that. I hate the made up milk shakes cos they are so sweet and sickly and they put something horrid in it to make it thick. You just get a glass of milk and put a couple of tea spoons in - or more, according to taste. I never drink it normally but have always turned to it at these times. I went to a place overseas once to get clean (is that what camp snoopy is?) and took some with me and they raided my bag and disposed of it cos they thought it was drugs. The trouble is with these external demands and stressors is they are also really easy to turn into reasons not to do the taper/get clean. Remember the story of the tortoise and the hare? This getting
    clean from H has taken me nine months so far so I am most definitely a tortoise. But with that armouring, the gorilla dragons havent' got a chance. Remember if you post in the middle of the night, I'll be here cos it's my day time. So you have 24 hour support!! Love Jay xx
    Camp snoopy is just the name I call all the fancy drug rehab places here innthe states that charge people 50k per month, and go sailing, hiking, art & crafts, while they're getting clean. They keep people busy during the day with lots of activities, like going to the beach. I call it Camp for Adults.

    You and I have different journeys a bit to get here, but were here. You were on H. I have been in Sub for 5 yrs, so it makes this extra hard for me.

    Today is first day at .25. I have made the resolve jn my heart that now is the time.

    I always waited for less stressors in life, so I could taper when life wasn't hard. Now 5 yrs have gone by. Life has kicked my butt, and I realize it might not change, and I can't base my taper, and waiting for all my stressors to be gone,

    Work issues, economics, all that is around me, very hard circumstances sometimes.

    I realize that we can't wait to become sober or taper when all our stars line up perfectly. Because it might not happen soon. We need to embrace this taper, and realize life may be challenging during our Taoer.

    So the best time to taper is now.

    I am going for it. Today is a huge day--Day 1 of .25 after 5 yrs of taking 8mg.

    I am shooting for 4 days in this dose, then .125....then skip/jump.

    I will take some time off work for the jump, so I can succeed,

    I realize that sometimes we set ourselves up to fail.

    Like a phoenix, we shall rise from the ashes, clean.

    This is my hope for me, you, and everybody on here,

    The support makes it all ok. And helps.

    Moving forward on day 1 at .25, and holding my head up high to the sky.

    Cheers,

    Maximus

  29. #29
    Denny_D is offline Advanced Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus99 View Post
    Camp snoopy is just the name I call all the fancy drug rehab places here innthe states that charge people 50k per month, and go sailing, hiking, art & crafts, while they're getting clean. They keep people busy during the day with lots of activities, like going to the beach. I call it Camp for Adults.

    You and I have different journeys a bit to get here, but were here. You were on H. I have been in Sub for 5 yrs, so it makes this extra hard for me.

    Today is first day at .25. I have made the resolve jn my heart that now is the time.

    I always waited for less stressors in life, so I could taper when life wasn't hard. Now 5 yrs have gone by. Life has kicked my butt, and I realize it might not change, and I can't base my taper, and waiting for all my stressors to be gone,

    Work issues, economics, all that is around me, very hard circumstances sometimes.

    I realize that we can't wait to become sober or taper when all our stars line up perfectly. Because it might not happen soon. We need to embrace this taper, and realize life may be challenging during our Taoer.

    So the best time to taper is now.

    I am going for it. Today is a huge day--Day 1 of .25 after 5 yrs of taking 8mg.

    I am shooting for 4 days in this dose, then .125....then skip/jump.

    I will take some time off work for the jump, so I can succeed,

    I realize that sometimes we set ourselves up to fail.

    Like a phoenix, we shall rise from the ashes, clean.

    This is my hope for me, you, and everybody on here,

    The support makes it all ok. And helps.

    Moving forward on day 1 at .25, and holding my head up high to the sky.

    Cheers,

    Maximus
    Max .... that is golden music to my ears and eyes as I read this. Sometimes you just have to tell yourself enough of this, I'm done.! I think you will do fine doing just what you said you will do. I highly reccomend skipping days, but it's your decision to make when you get there.

    You have done a great job with this, and posting your daily results. Others will learn from it. And so did I. See you at the finish line. God Bless.....Denny

  30. #30
    maximus99 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Enthusiastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny_D View Post
    Max .... that is golden music to my ears and eyes as I read this. Sometimes you just have to tell yourself enough of this, I'm done.! I think you will do fine doing just what you said you will do. I highly reccomend skipping days, but it's your decision to make when you get there.

    You have done a great job with this, and posting your daily results. Others will learn from it. And so did I. See you at the finish line. God Bless.....Denny
    Denny, thank you so much for taking the tjme to read my diary, your sharing, wisdom, and encouragement. The support helps things move forward.

    I wasn't going to skip, as I thought since the dose of .125 would be low enough, but I will listen to you.

    I will take the dose low. Then skip days before jumping,

    It seems many start the skip, and end up after skipping 2 days, jumping.

    The skip is good advice and I will begin there. I am taking off time from work which is tricky. I have 10 days to myself without work. I thought those days would be enough to jump from .125 without skipping.

    However, the skip makes sense, and introduces your body to idea of bejng clean, first 1 day at a time, then 2,3, and 4.

    This makes perfect sense. I was only trying to make use of the time I have, so I can return with 10 days of being clean.

    If I skip, it would the schedule, and have to figure it out. So I shall. I am just ready to do this---ignorant enthusiasm!

    Will try to skip before jumping.

    God bless,

    Max

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