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Calling Robert! Want Quick Taper Off Sub
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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Default Calling Robert! Want Quick Taper Off Sub

    I was on sub for about a year and a half and quit about a year ago...The doc had me on 16 mg a day for over a year! He died suddenly and I took it upon myself to taper from 16mg to .5mg in about two months before jumping. The long term use was a killer and I couldn't handle the depression and lethargy. After three months of post-sub hell, I started using enhanced Kratom which made a huge difference but of course I became heavily addicted to it. So basically, with the exception of the 3 months off of everything, I have been using an opioid (hydro and sub)or opioid-like substance (Kratom) for 3-4 years. I tried to quit the Kratom CT but the withdrawals were as bad as the WD's from my original DOC hydro...I have a few subs left from way back when and I induced last Tuesday (one week ago) with about 1 mg. I know some may consider sub overkill for kratom use but I think my main issue is not just the kratom use (strong enhanced) but the long term effects of everything on my brain! I know that short-term sub use is essential if I am to get on the road of recovery. After my 1 mg induction, I have taken 1 mg each day, including today (5/15). I am fairly comfortable but my anxiety is pretty high (but bearable)...the anxiety was the main culprit for my relapse into heavy kratom use. PLEASE walk me through a taper! You are one of the very few people I have come across in my search that seems to know how to use this drug intelligently. Other intelligent opinions say that sub use should be limited to three weeks. I want to get off as quickly as possible to avoid the pure hell of the sub withdrawal I went through after long-term use of it (withdrawals were pretty acute for two months and still bad for a third month). My biggest fear is knowing that I will probably have to endure a few months of brain repair even if I get off the sub quickly. I am a 45 year old male. Please respond. I would like your taper suggestions and any other suggestions (supplements, etc) for post-sub.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    I was on sub for about a year and a half and quit about a year ago...The doc had me on 16 mg a day for over a year! He died suddenly and I took it upon myself to taper from 16mg to .5mg in about two months before jumping. The long term use was a killer and I couldn't handle the depression and lethargy. After three months of post-sub hell, I started using enhanced Kratom which made a huge difference but of course I became heavily addicted to it. So basically, with the exception of the 3 months off of everything, I have been using an opioid (hydro and sub)or opioid-like substance (Kratom) for 3-4 years. I tried to quit the Kratom CT but the withdrawals were as bad as the WD's from my original DOC hydro...I have a few subs left from way back when and I induced last Tuesday (one week ago) with about 1 mg. I know some may consider sub overkill for kratom use but I think my main issue is not just the kratom use (strong enhanced) but the long term effects of everything on my brain! I know that short-term sub use is essential if I am to get on the road of recovery. After my 1 mg induction, I have taken 1 mg each day, including today (5/15). I am fairly comfortable but my anxiety is pretty high (but bearable)...the anxiety was the main culprit for my relapse into heavy kratom use. PLEASE walk me through a taper! You are one of the very few people I have come across in my search that seems to know how to use this drug intelligently. Other intelligent opinions say that sub use should be limited to three weeks. I want to get off as quickly as possible to avoid the pure hell of the sub withdrawal I went through after long-term use of it (withdrawals were pretty acute for two months and still bad for a third month). My biggest fear is knowing that I will probably have to endure a few months of brain repair even if I get off the sub quickly. I am a 45 year old male. Please respond. I would like your taper suggestions and any other suggestions (supplements, etc) for post-sub.



    You need to be on a dose of sub initially where you are totally stable. Then I suggest tapering down your dose by 25% every four days or so depending on your symptoms. I am not one of those who suggest a three week taper off a longterm opiate abuse history! I used 35 years and it took me about sixty days to be totally clean off the subs. That is the typical time frame that the protocol I use is usually effective. I do everything symptomatically based on how YOU are doing. It's not logical to think that you should taper in three weeks from something that took years to get you where you are now. Again, I'm not like so many sub drs that suggest using high doses or taking a year or longer to get clean as that just leads to sub addiction. But in opinion three weeks is too fast. You have a lot built up in your system and you need the sixty days or so to allow your receptors to start functioning properly again with a proper taper, daily exercise, etc. I can help you if you'll do as I ask but I really hate to get involved in a three week taper only to know that the odds are almost insurmountable that you'll end up in a relapse. Let me know if you want to follow a slightly longer, but effective taper, one with a history of success. Here is a link to the protocol I used and have shared on this forum for years. God bless.

    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Thank you for the reply. I see your rationale. I have five 8 mg tablets left so I can extend things a bit. I don't think I am ready to reduce the dose quite yet. 1 mg is working but there is still some slight discomfort. I don't want to be too comfortable. I'm thinking I will feel better in a couple of days as the sub continues to "stack". When I get to that point, should I try a slight reduction?

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    Thank you for the reply. I see your rationale. I have five 8 mg tablets left so I can extend things a bit. I don't think I am ready to reduce the dose quite yet. 1 mg is working but there is still some slight discomfort. I don't want to be too comfortable. I'm thinking I will feel better in a couple of days as the sub continues to "stack". When I get to that point, should I try a slight reduction?

    When you are stable at 1mg, meaning you feel pretty much "normal", then you should reduce to .75mg. Wait there until you feel stable again, it should be at about four days or so, then reduce by 25% again and repeat the process. It's important to be stable when reducing at these microdoses as it's the % of your reduction that is most important. When you get down to between .125mg - .25mg you can do a process of skipping days that I'll explain later or you can continue to taper down to nothing. That part is your decision but take your time. At the small dose you're at you are going to be done soon anyway, a few days extra to make sure you do this right and STAY CLEAN when you finish is very important. Don't want to rush through this only to find yourself in a relapse. Remember that truly staying clean forever is a PROCESS AND NOT AN EVENT!!! God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 05-15-2012 at 01:55 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Forgot to ask...do you think that five 8 mg tablets are enough? I would hate to see another doctor. Their ignorance with this drug is appalling. Also, you seem to subscribe to the idea that the brain begins to heal itself even when using sub. Is this the case? I would think that it would need to be clear of any opiate for this to occur. Thanks again.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    Forgot to ask...do you think that five 8 mg tablets are enough? I would hate to see another doctor. Their ignorance with this drug is appalling. Also, you seem to subscribe to the idea that the brain begins to heal itself even when using sub. Is this the case? I would think that it would need to be clear of any opiate for this to occur. Thanks again.



    That should be MORE than enough considering you're at 1mg now. You'll have plenty I assure you if you do this like I'm suggesting. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    AH123 is offline Junior Member
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    Robert, I know you've probably heard this many many times, but I admire you for staying on here, even years after you've been clean, just to help others. It's very inspiring.
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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Default Finally Comfortable at 1 mg

    I'm finally comfortable ("normal" feeling, whatever that is) after being on 1 mg a day for 9 days. Before today, most wd symptoms were in check, except for pretty bad anxiety and I have been sleeping for only about 5 hours a night. Hopefully I will sleep better tonight since I seem to be feeling better today. I could have started with more sub but I wanted to have my symptoms at the "just manageable" level for a while - I did this because I know that the sub stacks up in your system due to the long half life. I plan on dropping to .75 on Monday and remaining there for a few days. I have a family thing to go to next weekend so I really don't want to reduce again until the following Monday. How does this sound? I've seen Robert's 4 day rule...will a 7 day dose schedule be ok? Based on my history, Robert has suggested a taper no faster than 60 days. With the 7 day plan (along with skipping some days near the end), I should be able to taper off in a little over 60 days. I know I can do this...it's the part afterwards that worries me. I think a period of PAWS is inevitable but I just have to deal with it. The alternative is not an option for me anymore.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    I'm finally comfortable ("normal" feeling, whatever that is) after being on 1 mg a day for 9 days. Before today, most wd symptoms were in check, except for pretty bad anxiety and I have been sleeping for only about 5 hours a night. Hopefully I will sleep better tonight since I seem to be feeling better today. I could have started with more sub but I wanted to have my symptoms at the "just manageable" level for a while - I did this because I know that the sub stacks up in your system due to the long half life. I plan on dropping to .75 on Monday and remaining there for a few days. I have a family thing to go to next weekend so I really don't want to reduce again until the following Monday. How does this sound? I've seen Robert's 4 day rule...will a 7 day dose schedule be ok? Based on my history, Robert has suggested a taper no faster than 60 days. With the 7 day plan (along with skipping some days near the end), I should be able to taper off in a little over 60 days. I know I can do this...it's the part afterwards that worries me. I think a period of PAWS is inevitable but I just have to deal with it. The alternative is not an option for me anymore.



    That sounds fine and let me assure you that VERY FEW people ever experience PAWS!!! That is most over talked subject PERIOD that I've ever heard with people tapering off opiates. Most people just have w/d symptoms, not realizing that after a long period of abuse thinking they should feel perfect in a short period of time is unreasonable. If you encounter true PAWS, trust me, you'll know what I'm talking about. W/D symptoms will be almost nothing after you finish a proper taper like you're doing. You'll likely have a little mild depression, sleep is the last thing that returns to normal, but you have to realize that your brain has to start producing endorphines naturally again, thinking and physically acting without the effect of opiates, we have to pick up where we left off when we started abusing RX meds. It's not usually a case of PAWS, it's just a process of recovery. As I've said a thousand times on this forum recovery is a process, not an event. It takes some time to make up for all that time we abused ourselves. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 05-17-2012 at 01:19 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    That's encouraging. I'm still reeling from the bad experience of coming off a long-term huge dose of sub way back when. My fears are probably based on misunderstanding that experience as PAWS...it was really bad though - unbearable anxiety and depression for about three+ months. Like many, many others, I have learned that the vast majority of doctors do not know how to use this drug. They are being fed a protocol by the pharmaceutical company that ultimately converts addicts to long-term "customers" for both the doc and the pharm co. This protocol is almost criminal (don't they know that Europeans have been using bupe in microdoses for years?). After I complete my taper I plan on trying to meet personally with the 4-5 sub docs in my area...at the very least, I will be fed-ex ing them a long letter urging them to do more research on the web to alter their protocol. A movement needs to take place...class action or something. Inductions as high as 24 - 32mg?!! An eight hour class to become qualified to prescribe?! These docs are hurting their patients, not helping them. The worst part is that the $ generated in this racket is the biggest obstacle to getting anything changed.
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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    If I thought anyone would really listen and follow up on the proof I could provide I would approach the FDA, DEA, etc. I have drs around the country using my sub protocol for induction and tapering, but the drug manufacturers have blinded most of the sub drs into creating sub addicts. I first realized how to use subs when I inducted a longterm >>>>>> addict in France. They use .2mg and .4mg doses of buprenorphine. I inducted him at 1.2mg and have seldom had to use over 3mg on hardly anyone since. But "the medical community" regard anyone from the internet as a nutcase, so don't know how far any of us could get having people that actually make rules listen and take proper action.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Reduced to .75 mg today. Two hours in and feeling ok. Sun and exercise yesterday, and a good night's sleep, has been good to me. To anyone reading, exercise cannot be over-emphasized...even a brisk walk can be very beneficial while tapering.
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    andi85 is offline Junior Member
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    What is PAWS??? Just wondering.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by andi85 View Post
    What is PAWS??? Just wondering.


    PAWS is post acute w/d syndrome. It is a condition that too many people think they are suffering from. Very few people really ever see this condition manifest itself in their lives.

    People use drugs for many years, then they expect that when they go for a month or so and get clean that everything is supposed to be over with, their life should return to normal immediately and all will be rosey! That just isn't the case. It takes time for one's body and mind to return to normal after long term periods of drug abuse. That only makes sense.

    If a person does experience true PAWS they will know it, trust me. I went through it a couple times. I had periods of clean time and then out of nowhere I would begin to experience severe w/d symptoms again for no apparent reason. Just because it takes a while to get over the process of recovering from long term drug abuse doesn't mean that a person is experiencing an attack of PAWS.

    I could write for hours on the subject of PAWS, but again let me emphasize it is not as common of an occurence as most people think. Most people are just going through recovery and that is NOT an attack of PAWS!!! Much too often people post on forums like this that they are suffering from PAWS when all they are going through is recovery and those that are trying to get clean live in horror expecting the worst. Listen to those with experience rather than the horror stories. Doing that is like going into a rehab and asking a patient how to become fully recovered from addiction when that person has never even done it. Makes no sense whatsoever when you consider the logic. Hope that helps. God bless.
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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Hanging with the .75...I can definitely feel the reduction - nothing too bad though. I drag butt in the morning until my dose kicks in and I have a nagging headache and some anxiety. I know I will stabilize though in a couple of days. This stuff is incredibly potent. After two weeks off from using, I can also tell that my brain is gradually re-wiring itself...for the first couple of days after reduction, I couldn't really socialize, etc. due to that brain-dead feeling. A big aspect of recovery is dealing with daily life without altering our mood...stress management, taking responsibility, etc. THAT is the challenge in the long run. Ready to walk the walk...
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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Leveling off with the reduction. Folks - this plan works! So simple, so logical, but I have never heard of a doc that subscribes to this protocol. Ignorance? Greed? God bless you Robert for what you do to help us.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    I have what I think is good news...I'm going away for the weekend so I went to make a few doses...I had to break up another half a pill and, after breaking into two 2 mg pieces, I realized that I've been taking more like .5 mg this week instead of .75! I realized this after I saw a 2 mg reference piece. I've been doing ok this week so I guess I'm a little ahead! Of course, this applies to ME. I am not suggesting that anyone else reduce by more than Robert's 25% guideline. Next Monday I will reduce by 25% down to .375 mg. Robert, do you see this surprise reduction as a problem or a reason to alter my 7 day reduction plan?

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    I have what I think is good news...I'm going away for the weekend so I went to make a few doses...I had to break up another half a pill and, after breaking into two 2 mg pieces, I realized that I've been taking more like .5 mg this week instead of .75! I realized this after I saw a 2 mg reference piece. I've been doing ok this week so I guess I'm a little ahead! Of course, this applies to ME. I am not suggesting that anyone else reduce by more than Robert's 25% guideline. Next Monday I will reduce by 25% down to .375 mg. Robert, do you see this surprise reduction as a problem or a reason to alter my 7 day reduction plan?



    If you were lucky enough to be able to make it through a larger reduction unknowingly then just keep going as scheduled. No reason to turn it down. I see this as no problem if you don't feel it's a problem for you. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Started at .375 today. No problems...I think I will hang with this for a week, drop one more time for a week, and then start skipping days.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    Started at .375 today. No problems...I think I will hang with this for a week, drop one more time for a week, and then start skipping days.


    It's been five days since the last reduction, that sounds perfect to me. You may not need an entire week, let's see how you feel in 4-5 days! You are SOOO close right now to being clean right now, I'm proud of you!

    If you stick with the schedule you could easily be done in about three weeks or less, and that includes the day skipping. Keep in close contact, I want to make sure you finish this off without a snag. You're already a new success story, you just have to finish off the last little bit of time. God bless!
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Thanks for the encouragement. I have to admit that I'm nervous about living without a crutch. It's been YEARS. The last time I was on sub, the doc had me on way too much for way too long. I tapered rather quickly to .5 but suffered from major anxiety and depression for months after my jump. I felt doomed...almost like the sub changed my brain permanently. It eventually led to a relapse. I know now that sub won't permanently screw you up. I've learned that the human body is the work of the Ultimate Designer and it does heal. I'm convinced that long-term sub just builds up and stays forever in your body and results in a long withdrawal. In retrospect, I think that anyone who has been on sub long term (a year or more) should spend just as much time tapering. HOWEVER, if a person begins with a low dose, the potential success of the drug evidently is MUCH MUCH greater and the time on the drug can be reduced to a fraction. Robert - God Bless You for your wisdom and guidance. A major change in protocol for this drug needs to take place in a revolutionary way. Otherwise, this drug will continue to cause more harm than good. If I have the success that I anticipate, you better believe that I will help carry the torch. Anxiety is my greatest fear after I get clean...it's always been a problem...or at least it seems so. Maybe I just haven't ever allowed myself to heal? I am 45 years old - I'm ready for a change...I long for homeostasis for my mind and body. So...I battle on toward the prize.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    I can so relate. I was almost 50 when I finally did it. I finally realized that we can do almost anything to ourselves when we're young, but man, when you get up in the 40's, at least for me it was change my life or I knew that I was going to die. Old bodies just don't hold up. Don't see many drug addicts in retirement centers! You can do it! God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    Started at .375 today. No problems...I think I will hang with this for a week, drop one more time for a week, and then start skipping days.
    It's day 5 at .375 and I'm feeling the purge of the half-life...no real pain, chills, etc. - just that familiar brain-dead kind of feeling along with some anxiety. You know, like you can't engage with people that well. Not bad though. I guess what's happening is supposed to be happening. I will stay with the dose for a couple of more days. Robert, should I reduce by another 25%, or try to skip days starting on Monday?
    Last edited by Halloweenhead; 06-01-2012 at 11:23 AM.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    It's day 5 at .375 and I'm feeling the purge of the half-life...no real pain, chills, etc. - just that familiar brain-dead kind of feeling along with some anxiety. You know, like you can't engage with people that well. Not bad though. I guess what's happening is supposed to be happening. I will stay with the dose for a couple of more days. Robert, should I reduce by another 25%, or try to skip days starting on Monday?


    You're almost done! But at this low dose it's important to be stable before moving to the next level. A few days one way or the other is not important at this point. I want you to be comfortable the rest of the way down. Let's see how you feel Sunday afternoon and we'll make a gameplan for Monday. I will be in church Sunday so I'll check on you mid afternoon Sunday! Proud of you! You're another success story about to finish up! God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    So - I've been at .375 for one week. Even though I don't feel entirely stable at .375, I'm going to try another reduction starting today...part of me wants to continue on even if I have some discomfort. If necessary, I will take another tiny crumb to remain at .375 a little longer. I don't think I'm ready to start skipping days. The power of this drug is really underestimated...if only the doctors would start thinking in terms of fractions... Measuring out these small doses is a pain in the butt - you can't help but worry that you're not measuring correctly. I'm going to make 2 weeks worth of smaller doses with the intention of skipping days starting next week. Sound like a plan Robert? Sorry if I missed you yesterday...the sunny coast of SC held me captive all afternoon.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halloweenhead View Post
    So - I've been at .375 for one week. Even though I don't feel entirely stable at .375, I'm going to try another reduction starting today...part of me wants to continue on even if I have some discomfort. If necessary, I will take another tiny crumb to remain at .375 a little longer. I don't think I'm ready to start skipping days. The power of this drug is really underestimated...if only the doctors would start thinking in terms of fractions... Measuring out these small doses is a pain in the butt - you can't help but worry that you're not measuring correctly. I'm going to make 2 weeks worth of smaller doses with the intention of skipping days starting next week. Sound like a plan Robert? Sorry if I missed you yesterday...the sunny coast of SC held me captive all afternoon.




    Go for it! Let me know what is happening tonight! Talk later. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Took what seemed like a little less than .375 (maybe .33?) yesterday and did "ok"...I went through a couple of spots during the day where I had cravings - for more sub or something else. Fought it off though...I know that I will probably have more of that even when I wean off of the sub. Sleep was not good - only about 4 hours (I know it could be worse). Will try to bump it down a little more today, closer to an actual 25% reduction down to .28 mg. Starting magnesium supplement today...it was recommended to me for anxiety. I'm excited about getting clean but I'm starting to get this "bored" feeling...my receptors want to be excited and they are used to this being done artificially. Robert - how long did it take you to feel like your brain had healed and you felt like you were free of cravings? Don't worry - your answer won't discourage me. I know it takes a while.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    This will be day two at .28 mg. Yesterday was OK. Slept great last night and I think it is at least partly due to the Magnesium Citrate supplement that I started on Tuesday. The product is called "Natural Calm" and I really think that it is a useful tool. Anyone reading this should do a Google and read the reviews (Amazon, etc.) I'm usually skeptical of supplements' claims, but I think this is a good one. My noggin' is gradually healing - I can tell. So motivated now...will continue slow and steady. Some days are worse than others, but gradually getting easier.

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    rxqueen83 is offline Member
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    Hey Halloweenhead,
    Great job! Your almost done. God bless you. I wish you a happy, healthy and speedy recovery. Many people seem to have a relatively easy time once they use Roberts taper plan. Don't be scared. It won't be anything like the very high jump you mentioned in your first post.

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    Halloweenhead is offline Member
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    Down to what looks like .25 mg/day. What a pain to measure out the tiny chunks...obsessing over the accuracy. Will hang with this for a few more days, then drop one more time for about a week before skipping days. I have learned that it can sometimes take an extra day or two to get "stable" on these low doses...this may apply to just me, of course. Looking forward to ending this! For those who may stumble on this thread - a slow, structured taper is the key! I think that it probably needs to be really stretched out for those who have been on anything higher than 2 mg for long term. The reductions can be somewhat uncomfortable but you begin to systematically adjust to the reductions within a few days.
    Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm just an addict who knows a little about drugs.

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