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methadone to sub
  1. #1
    matija is offline New Member
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    Default methadone to sub

    hi i'm new here.
    i'm on methadone for 9 years now and i am thinking to go on subotex, is this posible?

    thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by matija View Post
    hi i'm new here.
    i'm on methadone for 9 years now and i am thinking to go on subotex, is this posible?

    thanks in advance.




    Yes it is but you need to be taking no more than 30mg of methadone prior to making the switch. If you're taking more than that you'll need to titrate the dose down or you'll have more problems than you care to hear about I promise. Tell me where you are on your methadone dose. Then I can give you more suggestions that will make this work for you. I do this every day. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  3. #3
    no_more_tram is offline Member
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    Thumbs up

    Good Luck to You!! Hope you do well if you decide to switch. From what I hear, and from abusing Methadone I would think switching to Subs would be a better thing. Let us know what you decide to do, and Robert will definitely help you get to where you need to be

  4. #4
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    yes it is entirely possible. i have been on methadone for over 10 years, and made the move to subs and am down to 1.5mg, starting on 14mg about 3 months ago.
    you need to be on 20-30mg to make the switch, whats your dose.
    they are so much easier to taper down on than methadone, i have never managed to count off successfully on methadone, but however i feel confident i am on the right track to doing it this time with subs.
    there is hope,
    some of us old methadone people think there is no way off.
    thanks to subs there is.
    good luck matija.

    it is possible.

  5. #5
    matija is offline New Member
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    thank you for all replys.
    i am from croatia, so methadone in my country is called heptanon, one pill is 5 mg. for years i am trying to reduce (i think you called that taper). i start with 20 pills (100 mg) then every one or two weeks i go one down, it's all good till i get to 10-12 pills, then i go up again, not because i feel w/d symptoms, it is just something in my head, i go over 20 pills, then i start all over again, tapering...
    currently i'm on 20 (or something) pills, thats 100 mg.
    so i would have to go down on at least 5 pills before i go to subotex.
    how long would i have to be on subotex to not feel w/d symptoms of methadon?

  6. #6
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by matija View Post
    thank you for all replys.
    i am from croatia, so methadone in my country is called heptanon, one pill is 5 mg. for years i am trying to reduce (i think you called that taper). i start with 20 pills (100 mg) then every one or two weeks i go one down, it's all good till i get to 10-12 pills, then i go up again, not because i feel w/d symptoms, it is just something in my head, i go over 20 pills, then i start all over again, tapering...
    currently i'm on 20 (or something) pills, thats 100 mg.
    so i would have to go down on at least 5 pills before i go to subotex.
    how long would i have to be on subotex to not feel w/d symptoms of methadon?



    When you get down to 30mg of methadone I can do the induction myself right here on the forum and I can have you feeling great within hours. But first you need to taper down to the proper dose or you'll have a very rough time doing this. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  7. #7
    Anonymous Guest

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    hey matija,
    yeh you have to be on far less than that 100mg you are on now. 20 or 30 is ok.
    but once you successfully change over, you immediately feel way better. oh and for me, i could always have more methadone, no matter how much i had already had. but subs, well i have not had any extra, or top ups, at all for the whole time ive been on them. and for me, that is very very unusual.
    so i wholeheartedly recommend you try and slowly get your dose down, and make the switch.
    good luck,
    stuckinarut likes this.

  8. #8
    matija is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    When you get down to 30mg of methadone I can do the induction myself right here on the forum and I can have you feeling great within hours. But first you need to taper down to the proper dose or you'll have a very rough time doing this. God bless.

    what do you mean you can do the induction yourself right here on the forum?
    my english is not so good.

  9. #9
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by matija View Post
    what do you mean you can do the induction yourself right here on the forum?
    my english is not so good.



    Means that when you are ready to begin I can help you do it the right way. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  10. #10
    Wannalivefree is offline New Member
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    Default Pain management for methadone patients?

    Hey All,
    My first post here.I have suffered from opiate addiction on and off(mostly on) since 1992.Aggravated by bipolar disorder as well.Seventeen years of my life gone.I did manage two decent stints of sobriety during those seventeen yrs.One two yr period and another 11 1/2 month period of being totally clean.These were accomplished through extended residential treatment.ALL were before I went on methadone maintenance in 2002.
    I have been on 50 mg for a couple years now.I went as high as 95 mg but have been 50 mg or lower for the past 4 yrs.I'm on once a week pick ups.No problems there.
    I normally don't touch anything but weed.I have had a couple minor surgical stuff that I took a few percs for.Yeah, I can feel the 10/325's over my methadone.
    I am getting ready for major surgery in which significant pain will be involved.Anyone know how this will be handled? Thx..peace wannaBfree

  11. #11
    Anonymous Guest

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    i had a major motor vehicle accident with 6 broken bones while on methadone,
    be straight up, i was and it paid off.
    they gave me my usual methadone, and as much morphine as required to make sure i had no pain.
    yeh if you are honest, they will give you more than the average jo on the street to compensate for your tolerance.
    there was all sorts of horror stories that if you were on a program you would get no pain releif but thats just bull.
    the doctors i had were brilliant, and even the nurses were like "but you don't look like a .....drug addict", hah just what does "one" look like.
    anyway thats my advice, be honest, and they will make sure you dont suffer any pain.
    thats my experience anyway.
    good luck
    cheeky

  12. #12
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wannalivefree View Post
    Hey All,
    My first post here.I have suffered from opiate addiction on and off(mostly on) since 1992.Aggravated by bipolar disorder as well.Seventeen years of my life gone.I did manage two decent stints of sobriety during those seventeen yrs.One two yr period and another 11 1/2 month period of being totally clean.These were accomplished through extended residential treatment.ALL were before I went on methadone maintenance in 2002.
    I have been on 50 mg for a couple years now.I went as high as 95 mg but have been 50 mg or lower for the past 4 yrs.I'm on once a week pick ups.No problems there.
    I normally don't touch anything but weed.I have had a couple minor surgical stuff that I took a few percs for.Yeah, I can feel the 10/325's over my methadone.
    I am getting ready for major surgery in which significant pain will be involved.Anyone know how this will be handled? Thx..peace wannaBfree





    I have to agree with cheekysod. There are a LOT of people in this world using methadone who require surgeries for whatever reason. The main thing is for you to always be totally honest with the drs, both the surgeon and the anesthesiologist. It's their job to help you not to morally judge you for being on methadone.

    Trust me you won't be the first person they ever operated on who was a methadone patient. You won't have any problems at all as long as the drs involved know your history specifics. Let us know how things work out for you. I wish you the best of luck and will keep you in my prayers. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  13. #13
    angelo2122 is offline New Member
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    They recommend getting down to 30mg then taking nothing for 36 hours befor they will put you on the suboxone. I recommend getting lower then that. As low as possible.
    For those that had surgery. If your on suboxone and need surgery, they stop the suboxone and give you methadone as long as your at the hospital.

  14. #14
    lorinabrown is offline New Member
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    why not..If you decided then what is problem...

  15. #15
    doc.rose is offline Advanced Member
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    Default

    lorina, this post is like 5 months old, I doubt the original poster will see your comment. Which I didn't understand one bit.

  16. #16
    Suboxdep is offline New Member
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    I want to give an opinion from personal experience. I was on methadone maintenance [70-80mg] for about 16 yrs and switched over to suboxone april of last year. The induction wasn't bad because It was done in-patient.

    However, I haven't been the same since. There is no comparision between the two drugs... I feel worse both physically and mentally. Suboxone can be a cruel drug to someone who was a long-term methadone patient. The only thing subs does for me is keep me from WD's. If I could go back and change things... I would have never changed to this drug... and I have spoken with several other MMT patients who switched and every single one hates suboxone. It probably has something to do with the partial antagonist properties.
    Last edited by Suboxdep; 05-03-2010 at 12:14 PM.

  17. #17
    Thebyrdman is offline New Member
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    I've taken methadone for approximately 3 years, and suboxone for one year. My father has chronic back problems and he has been prescribed 10-20mg of methadone/day for about 15 yearls. He wanted to make the switch(methadone-suboxone) but his Doctor told him that he simply "could not do it". So, I think that's great that you decided to make the "switch", but as a pharmacist, reading the dosage you were taking and the amount of time... that would be extremely difficult and I would not recommend it. Let me rephrase, that would be Hell. I'm 25 years old and I'm glad I stopped when I did, but jesus, that would be pain. Props to you man. I gotta say though, have you ever heard of subutex? It's the form of suboxone(buprenorphine) that does not contain Naloxone(The secondary chemical in suboxone used to counteract with opiates) which would allow the full effects of the buprenorphine, which is a half-agonist, and would allow a window for pain managment. Whereas in suboxone, opiates will have no effect for at least 72 hours since the last dose of suboxone was administered. - Meaning if you were prescribed subutex you would still be able to take opiates(painkillers) if needed.

  18. #18
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Theby, You may be a pharmacist but unfortunately you have your facts all wrong. Suboxone AND subutex both contain bupenorphine in the same amount and it works the same way, as a partial agonist. Suboxone has the added ingredient narcan (nalaxone) put there specifically to thwart people from shooting the sub to get high. If you were to shoot a suboxone, you would go into instant withdrawal (Narcan is the drug used in ER's to reverse overdoses from narcotics. If sub is taken c orrectly, under the tongue, the nalaxone has little to no effect as it is barely absorbed. There are a slight minority of people allergic to the narcan who have bad reactions but the bupe part of the drug works exactly the same way in both meds. And as for pain releif, unfortunately, if you need to have surgery or have an accident while on suboxone OR subutex, you have a MAJOR problem as nothing will bypass the bupe which binds like glue to the receptors in the brain. You need to be off for approx 5 days due to the extremely long half life of sub (either kind) before pain med would work. The reason your dad needs to stay on methadone instead of sub is that sub is a notoriously poor pain reliever, methadone is not.

  19. #19
    encrypteddreams2010 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by newyorkgal View Post
    Theby, You may be a pharmacist but unfortunately you have your facts all wrong. Suboxone AND subutex both contain bupenorphine in the same amount and it works the same way, as a partial agonist. Suboxone has the added ingredient narcan (nalaxone) put there specifically to thwart people from shooting the sub to get high. If you were to shoot a suboxone, you would go into instant withdrawal (Narcan is the drug used in ER's to reverse overdoses from narcotics. If sub is taken c orrectly, under the tongue, the nalaxone has little to no effect as it is barely absorbed. There are a slight minority of people allergic to the narcan who have bad reactions but the bupe part of the drug works exactly the same way in both meds. And as for pain releif, unfortunately, if you need to have surgery or have an accident while on suboxone OR subutex, you have a MAJOR problem as nothing will bypass the bupe which binds like glue to the receptors in the brain. You need to be off for approx 5 days due to the extremely long half life of sub (either kind) before pain med would work. The reason your dad needs to stay on methadone instead of sub is that sub is a notoriously poor pain reliever, methadone is not.
    FYI, as you are correct that the narcan in the sub is used to deter people from booting, it doesnt actually have any effect. Let me rephrase that, it does not make you go into instant withdrawls. I still wouldnt reccomend shooting sub, or any pill for that matter, but the narcan is merely a "scare tactic"

  20. #20
    Anonymous Guest

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    well i would say its a bloody good "scare tactic" then, coz i have had no desire to shoot up this drug, and i was a hard core injector. some people need a scare tactic.!!

    it was this option i preferred, as we can "shoot" our methadone over here, so for me there was no choice,

    the one i cant inject. end of story..

    worked for me, no needles since july 12 09.

    cheeky

  21. #21
    Satchmoeddie is offline New Member
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    I took part in a double blind test with Suboxin used in place of Methadone. I found out the hard way I have neuropathy, but it does work. I recommend getting down below 20-30 mg first. The insomnia is the worst part. I hope you have a doctor who will work with you through that part, and any other issues. I found the experience was like being on speed. post accute withdrawl syndrom is what symptoms are left over after the worst part od a "cold turkey" withdrawal. Thisis experienced by many who use Suboxone to get off Methadone. I hope to see Buprenorphin and Nalexone Suboxone used in place of Methadone for use in >>>>>>e addiction soon. Metadone stays in the body a very long time compared to lots of drugs. Maybe Subtex would have been better for me. It does not have the Nalexone. I personally would use Suboxone over Subtex in a withdrawal application. When people who were on methadone and have stopped its use use >>>>>>e many times they overdose. I lost a 3rd cousin (twice removed) that way.

  22. #22
    debcreature is offline Member
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    Hello,
    I was wondering if you would be willing to help me also? I'm switching to Subutex on Wed 6/2. I found out that I need to be off Methadone for 72 hrs. Which my last dose was yesterday morning and I'l be 72 hrs out when I go to the Dr. I don't know why I'm at this point again in my life...I'm 46 yrs old and have fought addiction all my life. I used Suboxone about 3 yrs ago to withdraw from Opiates from a pain Dr. I had great success and was able to taper off Suboxone pretty quick too. I just finished tx for Hep C (so far showing negative) this month and am now going to have to withdraw from drugs AGAIN....I started using methadone thinking I couldn't become addicted if I didn't do it everyday. I should have researched this cause Lord knows it's not true. I've been using Methadone up to 5-6 days a week up to 30 mgs ea time. I stopped for 11 days and this past Wednesday I had to take 10 mgs which still left me sweating all night so I upped it to 15 mgs on Thursday and have been using 15 mgs thru Sunday. Today is Monday and I have not used anything since yesterday morning. I hope you'll be willing to help me cause I need all the help I can get right now.

    Thank You,
    Debbie in Tennessee

  23. #23
    nicdanielle87 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Yes it is but you need to be taking no more than 30mg of methadone prior to making the switch. If you're taking more than that you'll need to titrate the dose down or you'll have more problems than you care to hear about I promise. Tell me where you are on your methadone dose. Then I can give you more suggestions that will make this work for you. I do this every day. God bless.
    Hello, I have just signed up on here as well, and I have been reading the past hour about switching from soboxone to methadone. Ignorantly today, I decided to take an 8mg of Sub, and skip my methadone this morning, (I am on 70mg for the past 4months). When it did not work,I felt it was because the sub was too small a mg compared to the Methadone, so I decided to take another. After reading, I realize I could NOT have been MORE WRONG! I sent myself into the worst withdrawel of my life! I was shivering to the point that my lips were blue, and soaked in sweat, all while enjoying my first day at a new job. It was horrible. I have been abusing opiods for a little over a year, I was snorting between 3 and 15 roxys a day depending on $. I can not longer go on like this! I need to make the switch, and I need to be told how to do it properly, whenever I bring it up to my counselor at MMTP she just brushes it off! I also have been experiencing chronic joint pain since being on the methadone (I am only 22) Every morning I wake up, my legs will not bend, it feels as though I have been hit by a car, does this have anything to do with the methadone? Because whenever I bring it up at the clinic they just ask if I want an increase, that is the last thing I want, I can barely stay awake all day! Some one please help! Thanks!

  24. #24
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicdanielle87 View Post
    Hello, I have just signed up on here as well, and I have been reading the past hour about switching from soboxone to methadone. Ignorantly today, I decided to take an 8mg of Sub, and skip my methadone this morning, (I am on 70mg for the past 4months). When it did not work,I felt it was because the sub was too small a mg compared to the Methadone, so I decided to take another. After reading, I realize I could NOT have been MORE WRONG! I sent myself into the worst withdrawel of my life! I was shivering to the point that my lips were blue, and soaked in sweat, all while enjoying my first day at a new job. It was horrible. I have been abusing opiods for a little over a year, I was snorting between 3 and 15 roxys a day depending on $. I can not longer go on like this! I need to make the switch, and I need to be told how to do it properly, whenever I bring it up to my counselor at MMTP she just brushes it off! I also have been experiencing chronic joint pain since being on the methadone (I am only 22) Every morning I wake up, my legs will not bend, it feels as though I have been hit by a car, does this have anything to do with the methadone? Because whenever I bring it up at the clinic they just ask if I want an increase, that is the last thing I want, I can barely stay awake all day! Some one please help! Thanks!




    I know it isn't funny at all but I couldn't help myself reading your post when you were describing preciptitated w/d. I can't believe you took two subs instead of your methadone after reading my post about doing it properly.

    If you will follow the instructions you read that I wrote about titrating down to 30mg and let me help you switch to subs and then taper down to nothing it will be lots easier I promise. You really tried to do it the hard way today.

    You need to do this as you're not doing well on the methadone anyway. Some people do great on methadone but it really appears that subs would be the way to go for you. It's a lot easier taper than methadone and you will do well if you will follow my suggestions. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  25. #25
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Oh, boy. I am amazed that someone would take 16 mgs of sub one day after they took 70 mgs. of meth after reading Robert's post and the MANY posts on here about precipitated w/d. You say you had been reading posts for an hour. How could you missed a post about the inevitable precipitated w/d if you take sub too soon?. It's sounds almost like the poster was looking for it although I can't imagine why. I was on methadone for over 30 years and managed to make the switch to sub with no w/d. That's because I followed the rules which are: 1. Decrease your dose to a maximum of 30 mgs. meth before making the switch and 2. ESPECIALLY WITH METHADONE WHICH HAS A VERY LONG HALF LIFE - Take nothing until you are in moderate to severe withdrawal - approximately 72 hours - before starting the sub. It's uncomfortable but not as bad as you'd think. Because of the long half life you really don't feel much withdrawal until the 3rd day (at least I didn't and remember, I'd been on it for over 30 years). When you are in moderate to severe w/d as per the COWS worksheet which you can find online, you are ready to take the sub. I could understand if you hadn't been warned beforehand. Alot of people knew no better and put themselves into prec. w/d. But you did know..... Baffling ..... In addition, 16 mgs. is a very high dose of sub. I bet if you follow Robert's plan, you could start on half that amount or less.

  26. #26
    Anonymous Guest

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    don't forget the kiwi did exactly the same, pigged out on last week on methadone, despite being told to be on less than 20mg,
    i went into horrible prec wd, for two days,

    but i carried on with my sub regardless, i did not reinduct, coz i was unable to thru the clinic,
    and after two days, on subs, with prec wd, i came right. i was on 12mg, once a day, and i stayed on.

    that was my experience,

  27. #27
    rico8458 is offline New Member
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    do we need to compare apples to apples when we try to calculate the transistion from methadone or vicos to subox? like vico is blank times the strenght of morphine and methadone is blank the strength of morphine and subutex is 30 times the strength of morphine therefore, can we calculate how much sub we need when we know the mg of any other drug?

  28. #28
    ssethv is offline New Member
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    Default 200mgs of methadone to suboxone

    Hi My name is Seth. I have been taking 200 mgs of methadone daily for 3 yrs at a clinic. Alot of people are told that the have to get down to 30 mgs and the be off methadone for 3 days before transitioning to suboxone. I AM NOT A DOCTOR but took my last dose of methadone on a thursday morning and started suboxone the following monday morning. for the first 20 minutes I thought it was making me sicker but then i started feeling better. By the next dose of suboxone 6 hours later i felt a million times better. Everyones body is different but i think the 30 mg transition is ?. like i said i went from 200mgs to 36 plus hrs later to suboxone. i love suboxone i feel normal and no longer go to the ball and chain methadone clinic. Good luck and God bless. I am finally free from methadone...
    Last edited by ddcmod; 08-09-2010 at 02:00 PM.

  29. #29
    stuckinarut is offline New Member
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    Hi..I have been on methadone for 4 yrs and a little over a year ago I tried to decrease my dose from 165mg. I was going down 5mg. every Monday..I got down to 100mg. and I got VERY sick...I had to go up 2 more times to stop the withdrawling. I don't think it's a good idea to decrease so quickly. Every 3 weeks my clinic lets us decrease 5 mg. I understand why they don't want us to do it faster, methadone is a long lasting drug and it must stay in your system for awhile because I got so, so sick, it hit me all at once. I am going down 5mg. again on Tuesday, this time i will do it every 3 weeks, then I am going to try suboxone. I hear it is better, I have alot of injuries from a car wreck, thats how I got addicted to pain pills, but I will try subs..anything to get off this methadone. Yes, it saved me, but it is very hard to get off of. Good Luck!!

  30. #30
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Yes, methadone is very very hard to get off of but let me warn you, sub also has a very long half life, is much stronger than you could imagine, and if it is not taken correctly and is taken for too long without tapering, it will be very hard to get off of as well. You need to be down to 30 mgs. or less before switching to sub. You need to go approximately 72 hours iwth nothing before switching (look up COWS worksheet which helps you know when you can start sub) and mostly, you need to taper off the sub or you will get just as stuck as with methadone. There are many many threads addressed to Robert_325 who has created a successful way to get off sub with a minimum of pain. He or Henry can help you do the sub in the proper way.

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