[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

...is this "too good to be true?" I used to take Oxycontin 40mg 5-7 times a day for one year, and Hydro's for the previous two years, so my addiction had (notice, I'm using PAST tense. ) lasted over a period of 3 1/2 years.

So, I have a great doctor. He gave me three 8mg Subutex to take for the first day (the first one half of an 8mg pill, followed by the other half when he had ascertained that I was still with drawing too harshly). They worked almost instantaneously, and I'm in awe of the fact that I am COMPLETELY without ANY withdrawals. I take 3 of them a day, and I'm on day 3 of my exit from Oxycontin. I feel great! After the 3 Subutex, he gave me Suboxone.

One part I don't know if I want to believe though. I read that the only difference between Subutex and Suboxone is the 2nd ingredient (naloxone), is in Suboxone for the sole purpose so as to prevent addicts from shooting it up?? naloxone will kill the effect, so doctors don't like to subscribe Subutex.

MY doctor told me that Suboxone is a bit different from Subutex in that it supposedly "cleanses" the body from all the narcotic drugs, and that the Subutex was just to get the initial "cold turkey" effect taken care of, which it did, boy, did it ever!!! I was equally as stunned at how there were NOOOOO cravings at any point, ever, none, wow! lol

My doctor is quite a guy. Countless board memberships, certification for stuff I had never even heard of, and he comes off as genuinely wanting to help...even guaranteeing that I will be done with this once we find out my right dosage, and then gradually taper down. He said he didn't know know how long it would take. "Could be a couple of months on 30mg Suboxone, tapered down over 60 days on an initial dose of 32mg. Alternatively, I have a patient who has been on it for a YEAR but only at 1mg.", he said.

I have only a couple of questions: I have never, and will never shoot any drugs into my veins. I have never and will never "do" anything like the Schedule I illegal substances, such as Cocaine, or Heroin.

I have abused Hydrocodone, and Oxycodone, that's it. Which is not to say that it is to be taken lightly, but I'm dealing with it, and so far so very very good.

Might I switch to Subutex, without the naloxone, and be done with this even faster?? Or is it the other way around?? Is Subutex less expensive than Suboxone?? And I've read something about "horror stories" with Suboxone?? I don't even consider myself in withdrawals. This is a piece of cake. Can this be true??

Please help me understand this better.

Thanks to everyone!

[Robert_325]

Read the following link. There is NO WAY that ANYONE needs any 30mg of suboxone or subutex. 24mg is TOO high. I will answer questions after you read the link ....

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

Let me know if you want my help. Good luck and God bless.

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Read the following link. There is NO WAY that ANYONE needs any 30mg of suboxone or subutex. 24mg is TOO high. I will answer questions after you read the link ....

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

Let me know if you want my help. Good luck and God bless.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the quick response. It sounds like what my doctor is doing. I just looked at the bottle and it said to take three HALVES of one 8mg, so I am taking 16mg, not 32. So step it down by 25% every four days. Let's see how this works with me.

He said a lot of what you wrote up in your article. I was inducted at his office under his supervision, with half of an 8mg Subutex, so 4mg. We waited about 15 minutes, and then he took my pulse again, and determined that I was withdrawing too much still, and directed me to take the other half. After I left the office, I felt so-so, but better anyway. However, during the following 30 minutes, I felt a euphoric high, so I could have likely been inducted at a (much?) lower dose!? I think the initial 4mg would have been enough, being that the whole 8mg hadn't kicked in until AFTER I left his office. He told me to wait another six hours, and only if I felt like I needed more, he said to take one half of the 2nd Subutex, which I ultimately did. He even offered for me to call him then, and at any other point in time, which I have never heard anyone do. Plus, it was 10pm that he wanted me to call. lol

He also said it would take four days until "we could establish MY PERSONAL dosage", as everyone has a different make-up as far as everyone metabolizes at a different rate, and everything mattered from age to height and weight and, of course, the degree to which and which form I abused which substance.

Your experience sounds a lot like my doctor, except you probably disagree slightly with my initial induction dose.

Please let me know if you want or need any additional information, and I will be as precise as possible. I like this give and take.

EDIT:

P.S.: He also said I needed to be in a state of "mild to moderate withdrawal stage", which I made sure I was. I could have waited longer, though, but the appointment was scheduled.

[Robert_325]

Your 16mg dose is a little high but not terrible for the first day. He inducted you too quickly though and never let the initial dosage take effect before giving you more. You should split your dose though into two 8mg doses tomorrow. Two doses help you as you progress with this I promise. Then on the fourth day we recommend you reduce the 16mg per day by 25% down to 12mg. That would actually be the dose you would remain at according to the way we do it or your "lowest effective dose." I agree with the four day induction, I've even seen it take five days a couple times with really difficult circumstances. Then you should stay on the 12mg for maybe a good week or so before you start the 25% reduction every four days. And all this depends on how well you do as this progresses. We can talk tomorrow after Easter church services. God bless.

[shadow10cats]

Hi there:
I don't want to burst your bubble but be very careful with your use of suboxone or subutex. my case is similar to yours in that i was on prescription pain meds for years: norco and a fentanyl patch as a means to control chronic pain. and, probably bec the drs didn't know what else to do for me! in any case i was always concerned about long term effects of their use & it got to the point where they weren't very effective & my only choice would be to increase the dosages or try something stronger. neither was a good option for me & i was sick of them anyway. however, for a long time the fear of withdrawals kept me from getting off them. i work full time & did not have the luxury of a lot of time off to address the time to go thru withdrawals and get back on my feet. i heard about suboxone & my dr. had no reservations about using it. it worked awesome! i stopped all my meds on sunday evening & monday morning took 1/2 suboxone in the morning & 1/2 later on. no withdrawals what-so-ever! my plan was to be med-free but i wasn't worried about the suboxone. i was pretty ignorant of the after effects i only knew how it helped w/ withdrawals. much too late in the game i started learing how suboxone really works! it locks onto your brain & body like nothing else. it is very difficult to come off of. my plan of 2-3 mos on it turned into over a year! finally i had to have some surgery so in order to take the pain meds subscribed i needed to come off the suboxone. i took 10 days off work. i weaned down to1/2 or less suboxone per day; then per my dr's instructions, switched back to the norco 2 days before my surgery. my life became a living hell! i was so miserable & sick i had to cancel my surgery. i tried so hard to stick to the plan. i didn't touch the suboxone but no amount of norco made me feel better. even after 8 days of no suboxone in my body i was still so sick i could barely get off the couch. i felt just terrible. i couldn't miss any more time from work so my boyfriend convinced me to try just a small piece of the suboxone to see if that really was why i felt so bad. within 30 min i felt 100% better! so i talked to my dr & am back on the suboxone again. i am taking 1/5 tab in the morning & `1/5 later on if i need it. i can see now that this is going to be a long, slow process. this drug does work wonders eliminating the withdrawals but PLEASE, anyone reading this ..... get off the suboxone as quickly as possible. the longer you take it the harder it is. and, there is not magic pill to help with its withdrawals. read the blogs on the web. personally, i feel this drug is now being used much too liberally & patients are going to pay the price. i told my dr that if she has patients who are not hard-core drug addicts & simply need some help getting off prescription pain meds & are basically still taking them due to fears of withdrawal, to get those patients off the suboxone ASAP. no longer than30-60 days tops. in any case, that's my experience with this stuff. just be careful - there is no miracle pill out there & everything has consequences. this whole drug thing is out of control & if only i could turn back the clock to the days when i woke up feeling great & didn't have to reach out for a pill to take..

[Robert_325]

I actually agree with you almost on everything you said. That is why I hammer people on here to be completely tapered off suboxone/subutex therapy within six to eight weeks. Check out the following link......

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

We have NEVER had one problem with anyone who has followed this process with them having bad w/d symptoms or becoming addicted longterm as long as they've followed the suggestions. Regretfully too many people end up here like yourself who were not helped properly along the way.

I can help you taper down properly and help you get off the subs if you want to do it. We do it every day here with people in situations similar to yourself. Just let me know if you want to go for it. All I ask is that you go along with what I ask. It's your call, God bless.

[shadow10cats]

thanx for the reply.
i'll take a look at your program. Who exactly created it and how are you involved?
what i fear is happening is that drs. are simply going by what the pharmaceutical rep is selling them on in regards to the medication. in this case suboxone. the morning i was supposed to have my surgery i woke up around 3 am in total withdrawal even tho i had been off the suboxone for 4 days. i was trying to alleviate the symptoms by taking norco (following my drs orders) but it was not working at all. ok, maybe a little, for a short while. knowing i did not want to deal with the healing process after surgery feeling this way & afraid the norco wouldn't help with the pain expected since it sure wasn't helping now, i called and canceled the surgery. i immediately called my dr. to let her know the situation. i did speak to her until almost 5:30 pm later that day! - 11+ hrs in shear misery, not knowing what i should do. should i take more norco? should i stop? what would happen if i tried a suboxone? here's the clincher: during one of my calls i asked the nurse what the problem was, why couldn't she take 2 min to call me back? this was a pretty serious situation i was in - i didn't know if this was normal or something else was going on. the nurse said: "well it takes time for her to research this on the internet!" that speaks volumes doesn't it? for the most part, drs are clueless. and now, what i find really frightening is that they are advertising suboxone on tv! it's the new miracle drug to get folks off opiates. granted it does work but it has its own ramifications to deal with & i don't think advertising it like m&m's is the right message to give out. in 1-2 yrs instead of a bunch of folks addicted to opiates you'll have them all addicted to suboxone! if pharmaceutical companies are on the ball they are already working on a drug to help us get off the suboxone!

[Robert_325]

It's the program I designed by trial and error for myself when I detoxed using buprenorphine. I had been using for 35 years and I was totally done with subs in right at 8 weeks. I've been clean since, for years now. LOTS of people have followed this process here successfully. Look around the forum.

Of course buprenophine is a drug, it's an opiate. If it's abused, and using it the wrong way is abuse, then it can and does cause problems.

You're correct about pharmaceutical sales reps pushing this medication and instructing drs how to RX it. It's kind of ironic that most of the reps have a BS degree. lol

It's kind of like what is written on shampoo bottles .... Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Who in the world repeats? It's just a marketing tool to get drs to RX so much medication so they can sell more. And your dr having to look something up on the internet is a freakin joke. That dr really knows what's happening. Of course she is doing what the rep says.

I think it should be against the law for reps to get drs to slam a bunch of subs on people for a long time. DEA gets on drs for RXing too much Oxy, why not too much buprenorphine? People should use it correctly or not use it.

Let me know if you need help to get off ... it's not THAT difficult if you will follow the suggestions. You just need to taper it down to nothing properly. God bless.

[shadow10cats]

This goes off-base from the initial inquiry but I have a bit of a dilemma on my hands & could use some objective input. My boyfriend is also on suboxone, however, his having to get on them use stems from a different path then mine. I have several health issues that my Drs chose to treat with pain meds to help give me some quality of life. I never abused my scripts, asked for higher doses or stronger meds. Actually, I made it quite clear to my Drs that I never wanted to go that route & really did want to be off the pain meds. In all honesty they did help but as I initially stated, they were losing their effectiveness. Thus my reason for being on suboxone. My boyfriend (of 20 yrs) went on suboxone way before me. He started trying to get pain meds from his Drs. – he would try to convince me he actually had problems but I knew better. It was difficult to accept because when I first met him he’d barely take aspirin. A few Drs gave him small scripts of opiates but wouldn’t renew them because they didn’t feel, & rightfully so, that he had a health issue that warranted their use. However, they had no problem issuing scripts of Tramadol. For some reason no one seems to think these things are addictive. I can’t even begin to tell you the nightmare his addiction to them has created in our lives. Over a period of 3 years I’ve helped him wean down & often he would be clean but as soon as he could get another script off he’d go. Numerous times I found my meds missing & had to keep hiding them in different places. I finally had to buy a safe to lock them away! (Another major catalyst in my decision to finally get off my meds; I was running out of hiding places). When Drs would no longer refill, he couldn’t steal from me or he was simply taking so many he would run out he began purchasing Tramadol online. I couldn’t believe how easily he was able to do this. I found a few of the Drs sending the scripts & emailed them. They have no idea how old the person really is, if they could be mixing meds, abusing them. Completely unreal. Of course he tried his best to hide all this from me but I must have my father’s instincts (he was a police detective) & would always find out. Eventually, he got so messed up on Tramadols he tried detox but they wanted him on methadone & even he knew that was way too strong for him so he stopped. He found out about suboxone & began taking it & that should be the end of the story & a nice happy ending – but it’s not. He’s now been on the suboxone for 2 yrs or so. Once again he is abusing his meds. There have been times he’s downed 30 pills in 2 wks or less. When he’s out he goes nuts & I’ve had to give him pieces of mine just so he can get to work. He’s been using me now as his backup plan & actually comes up with a plan of how many I should be able to front him until he can refill, then supposedly pay me back but then he’s out again & it starts all over. I’ve never had a problem with my scripts so this really puts me in a bad place. I worry about him losing his job so I try to ensure he can get to work yet it goes against everything I know is right. He’s given me his scripts & I give him the dosages & this works fantastic. I’ve had him almost off the suboxone. But I found he was just playing me & just went right back on them. Now for the ending of this story: he went thru his last script in ½ the time so I found out he is now buying subutex online. I have no idea from where – I tried looking but had no results. He tried once before to buy some from some guy in Europe but got ripped off (big surprise). I’m scared. He has no idea what he’s getting & he gets pissed at me if I ask too many questions. We are both working professionals & the thing is he has the money to buy them so what does he care? It’s so difficult because you love someone & see them making all these wrong choices. In most cases I’d say go ahead let them make the choice & learn from their mistake but we are dealing with drugs here & that mistake could cost someone their life. Does anyone have any advice on how I can help him without coming across controlling or nosey? Or, is enough – enough & should I simply focus on my health issues & take care of myself & just try to be there if he needs me or; walk out the door & try not to look back?

[Robert_325]

There is a sad story of drug addiction. You can't do ANYTHING about his choices. He's going to do what he needs to do in order to get drugs until as they say in NA he is forced to face jails, institutions or death.

Like you said he can afford to pay for the drugs. I always had that same problem, I was always able to make plenty of money pretty easily. I never went to the point of ordering online from foreign sites though. That just always seemed like a rip off to me. But until the drs literally got 4" from my face YELLING at me that I was about to die, my heart had stopped twice, not until actually facing sure death would I stop. And I would probably still be using just like I always did had that not happened. I was never arrested, ran my own company, I was functional as a RX drug junkie. I just happened to nearly kill myself.

There comes a time when the only way to love someone is to force them to stand on their own. I could never watch my spouse/partner/whatever literally kill themself. It's easy for me to say now with some years clean behind me. But you're not doing him any favors allowing this to go on in your prescence.

You should force the issue on him in my opinion, make him decide whether he wants to be with you or die on his own. Because if he doesn't die first he WILL end up in jail or a nut house just like I did. I held a 9mm to my head and nearly pulled the trigger in the end but God intervened and saved me ... and only by His mercy am I still alive today.

It took me ten years of falling down, relapsing, etc to finally get off RX opiates. But I did it and I will never use them again. He CAN do the same, but if he doesn't he's going to die and there is NOTHING you can do other than deciding whether you wish to participate in either the cleaning up process or watching his demise. I will keep you both in my prayers. And I mean that for what it's worth. Good luck and God bless.

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

There is a sad story of drug addiction. You can't do ANYTHING about his choices. He's going to do what he needs to do in order to get drugs until as they say in NA he is forced to face jails, institutions or death.

Like you said he can afford to pay for the drugs. I always had that same problem, I was always able to make plenty of money pretty easily. I never went to the point of ordering online from foreign sites though. That just always seemed like a rip off to me. But until the drs literally got 4" from my face YELLING at me that I was about to die, my heart had stopped twice, not until actually facing sure death would I stop. And I would probably still be using just like I always did had that not happened. I was never arrested, ran my own company, I was functional as a RX drug junkie. I just happened to nearly kill myself.

There comes a time when the only way to love someone is to force them to stand on their own. I could never watch my spouse/partner/whatever literally kill themself. It's easy for me to say now with some years clean behind me. But you're not doing him any favors allowing this to go on in your prescence.

You should force the issue on him in my opinion, make him decide whether he wants to be with you or die on his own. Because if he doesn't die first he WILL end up in jail or a nut house just like I did. I held a 9mm to my head and nearly pulled the trigger in the end but God intervened and saved me ... and only by His mercy am I still alive today.

It took me ten years of falling down, relapsing, etc to finally get off RX opiates. But I did it and I will never use them again. He CAN do the same, but if he doesn't he's going to die and there is NOTHING you can do other than deciding whether you wish to participate in either the cleaning up process or watching his demise. I will keep you both in my prayers. And I mean that for what it's worth. Good luck and God bless.

@shadow10cats: I'm very sorry that you are in that situation, and I also hope for the best. I, too, had an addict for a girlfriend, and it was horrible. This was well before I started this opiate nonsense.

@Robert_325: Wow...I knew there had to be something. This can't be as easy as it currently is..(errr....seems!).

So I would love to have an answer to the whole Suboxone vs. Subutex question I had:

If I do switch to Subutex, and can this be done any faster than with Suboxone?? Or is it the other way around??

By the way, I also take Paxil, Klonopin, and Wellbutrin, the last of which he said would also help with the withdrawals.

You know what though...I feel somewhat "freed" already. I don't feel like ******** in the morning anymore. I already feel that I have more energy. I have become more sociable. I also think more clearly, and my doc said that during this time of transition, I may have trouble sleeping. I sleep just fine, but I've found myself staying up 2 hours later and still get up at the same time.

I am SO glad that I found this particular doctor. He said many of the same things that you outlined in your article about the potential problems with Suboxone or Subutex.

Another thing he said is to stay on the prescribed dose and not to interrupt the treatment, as I would then go (back!??) into a state of withdrawals. After a few weeks, the oxycodone should be "washed" out of my system, though, no? He was likely referring to the w/d symptoms that would START with Suboxone.

Man, this is a great place. I thank you very much, Robert, for taking the time to respond to us, and I'm glad you didn't pull that trigger. I will do the 25% less, wait 4 days, another 25% less (if withdrawal symptoms are not present), etc. That makes a lot of sense.

I have abused "only" Hydrocodone and Oxycodone, no shooting up, no Schedule I drugs. After doing some backtracking, I can put the length of my having abused narcotics at a few months above THREE years. Will that somehow work in my favor?? I understand that this is not that long a period of time, compared to most other addicts!? Is that true?

Thanks again! Once I'm clean, I might as well join you guys, and give back to the community by doing what you're doing.

Shane

P.S.: Please don't forget about the Subutex vs. Suboxone question. And lastly, my doctor said he couldn't tell me the exact time that it would take until I was done with this. He said that everyone is different, and I might be able to do it in only weeks, 2 months, and then he was saying something about having a patient who, for a whole YEAR, is on only 1mg!??!?

Please let me know what you think. Thanks again!!

[Robert_325]

Only in rare exceptions does anyone need subs for a year. It's impossible to say which would be FASTER for you suboxone or subutex.

I always recommend subutex if you don't shoot dope as the naloxone is ONLY for preventing abuse. Suboxone doesn't cleanse your body of any drugs. The only thing that does that is NOT USING any drugs.

I also recommend that you drop down off the dose you're currently taking. You should start reducing your dose. It's entirely too high. God bless.

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Only in rare exceptions does anyone need subs for a year. It's impossible to say which would be FASTER for you suboxone or subutex.

I always recommend subutex if you don't shoot dope as the naloxone is ONLY for preventing abuse. Suboxone doesn't cleanse your body of any drugs. The only thing that does that is NOT USING any drugs.

I also recommend that you drop down off the dose you're currently taking. You should start reducing your dose. It's entirely too high. God bless.

Thanks Robert.

So how long does it take most people to get off the Suboxone/Subutex. I've read the pamphlet, and supposedly, doctors don't like prescribing Subutex because of the possibility of abusing it by way of IV, in a mixture with a benzo. I think I'll be able to convince my doc. I have also read that Subutex is a bit easier to get off of. Everything speaks for switching, or am I missing something here??

Naloxone, the 2nd drug in Suboxone, is purely there for that?? I have reduced my dose to 12mg, by the way. Thank you. I would still be between 16 and 32mg. The change has not had any effects on me.

By the way, it seems like I took OxyContin years ago now. I never crave it, even though I have it right here in the house. This is a psychological test of strength. So not having had any OxyContin for a week, can you, or anybody else, tell me when it is "washed out"??

Thanks again!

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15

Thanks Robert.

So how long does it take most people to get off the Suboxone/Subutex. I've read the pamphlet, and supposedly, doctors don't like prescribing Subutex because of the possibility of abusing it by way of IV, in a mixture with a benzo. I think I'll be able to convince my doc. I have also read that Subutex is a bit easier to get off of. Everything speaks for switching, or am I missing something here??

Naloxone, the 2nd drug in Suboxone, is purely there for that?? I have reduced my dose to 12mg, by the way. Thank you. I would still be between 16 and 32mg. The change has not had any effects on me.

By the way, it seems like I took OxyContin years ago now. I never crave it, even though I have it right here in the house. This is a psychological test of strength. So not having had any OxyContin for a week, can you, or anybody else, tell me when it is "washed out"??

Thanks again!

Refer to the following link about how I suggest using subs ... either suboxone or subutex. It's usually a six to eight week program for most people if done according the following suggestions. Read this link .....

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

I totally disagree about any psychological tests keeping oxy around the house while attempting to get clean. I think it's a reservation personally and it's a very risky thing to do. I'm not judging, just sharing my opinion. Let me know if I can help you with this.

Sounds like you're doing great tapering dropping from 32mg down to 12mg. My hat goes off to you. Let me know as your dose gets smaller if you need some help. Sometimes it gets a little more difficult at the smaller doses. Good luck and God bless.

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Do you consider my having taken 4-6 40mg Oxycontin for a year, and Hydrocodone for the two years before that, a lot??

I think my doctor said something about, "Oh, you're a lightweight". I'll call him on it next time I talk to him.

[melinda7.5]

Originally Posted by IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15

Do you consider my having taken 4-6 40mg Oxycontin for a year, and Hydrocodone for the two years before that, a lot??

I think my doctor said something about, "Oh, you're a lightweight". I'll call him on it next time I talk to him.

Hi IveHadit
Oxycontin is nothing to mess with I was addicted to them for about three years....I quit them and did a taper off of them with perc's and vic's
I here I am 9 months later ...
So you can do it...
Talk to you soon, Melinda

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15

Do you consider my having taken 4-6 40mg Oxycontin for a year, and Hydrocodone for the two years before that, a lot??

I think my doctor said something about, "Oh, you're a lightweight". I'll call him on it next time I talk to him.

I think it's improper for a dr to minimize a patient's dependency to their face making it sound as if this were some type of contest about who is the biggest addict.

The amount you were taking is quite a bit less than what I was taking but my heart also stopped beating a couple times. I personally think it's smart for you to make an effort to turn your life around before getting to the point I was at. Your dr could have commended you for the life-changing decision that you made rather than refer to you as a light-weight. Even if he was joking it was not the right thing to say on his part. Some patients would take that as a statement meaning you really didn't need to worry about this RX drug problem at this point. He was being irresponsible with that statement regardless of what he was thinking. Saying something stupid like that would be just enough to make some people not take this seriously.

Granted there are people on this forum who have taken more than you were, but there are others who have taken less as well. Who cares who was taking the most? You should focus on your recovery and "living in the solution" rather than wondering if your dependency problem was severe enough to merit doing something constructive about it like you're doing. Just hang in there and keep doing what you're doing to get clean ... except I will repeat that I would get the remaining oxy OUT OF THE HOUSE. That is NOT in your best interest as I mentioned previously. Good luck and God bless.

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

I think it's improper for a dr to minimize a patient's dependency to their face making it sound as if this were some type of contest about who is the biggest addict.

The amount you were taking is quite a bit less than what I was taking but my heart also stopped beating a couple times. I personally think it's smart for you to make an effort to turn your life around before getting to the point I was at. Your dr could have commended you for the life-changing decision that you made rather than refer to you as a light-weight. Even if he was joking it was not the right thing to say on his part. Some patients would take that as a statement meaning you really didn't need to worry about this RX drug problem at this point. He was being irresponsible with that statement regardless of what he was thinking. Saying something stupid like that would be just enough to make some people not take this seriously.

Granted there are people on this forum who have taken more than you were, but there are others who have taken less as well. Who cares who was taking the most? You should focus on your recovery and "living in the solution" rather than wondering if your dependency problem was severe enough to merit doing something constructive about it like you're doing. Just hang in there and keep doing what you're doing to get clean ... except I will repeat that I would get the remaining oxy OUT OF THE HOUSE. That is NOT in your best interest as I mentioned previously. Good luck and God bless.

It sounds like I didn't ask that right. My doctor wasn't downplaying my addiction. OxyContin is pretty rough, I know. He said that to me as well.

And nobody is doing a "test of strength" for me. I decided to do that myself. I never even think about them anymore. I feel so much better without them, and on Suboxone.

On day 6 today, I am at 12mg. I think I can take it down another 4mg to 8mg. It's almost like I feel "too good" at 12mg.

I happened to be at my pharmacy today, and I asked her the whole Suboxone vs. Subutex, and she checked the price for me. Subutex is about the same (a few $$ difference) as Suboxone.

However, and this I have not seen mentioned anywhere. Does the naloxone not only prevent the "high" that comes from shooting up whatever it is some people do intravenously, but does it ALSO prevent ANY and ALL kinds of pleasure from Subutex?

And did I interpret your statement about the fact that Subutex is a bit easier to get off of when I'm done, than Suboxone??? I'm sorry to harp on this, but it sounds like you're right, that I should get switched to Subutex. Looks like it's time to get the 2mg pills, rather than 8mg.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15

It sounds like I didn't ask that right. My doctor wasn't downplaying my addiction. OxyContin is pretty rough, I know. He said that to me as well.

And nobody is doing a "test of strength" for me. I decided to do that myself. I never even think about them anymore. I feel so much better without them, and on Suboxone.

On day 6 today, I am at 12mg. I think I can take it down another 4mg to 8mg. It's almost like I feel "too good" at 12mg.

I happened to be at my pharmacy today, and I asked her the whole Suboxone vs. Subutex, and she checked the price for me. Subutex is about the same (a few $$ difference) as Suboxone.

However, and this I have not seen mentioned anywhere. Does the naloxone not only prevent the "high" that comes from shooting up whatever it is some people do intravenously, but does it ALSO prevent ANY and ALL kinds of pleasure from Subutex?

And did I interpret your statement about the fact that Subutex is a bit easier to get off of when I'm done, than Suboxone??? I'm sorry to harp on this, but it sounds like you're right, that I should get switched to Subutex. Looks like it's time to get the 2mg pills, rather than 8mg.

Subutex/Suboxone cost about the same in Houston as well. I assumed that was normal until I heard here of a couple places that charged more for subutex. That makes no sense but what can I say?

There are people who take the suboxone abusively too, not just the subutex. Or at least I think it's abuse when we are taking much more than we need. That can be done and is done with both meds. The naloxone only makes one ill if the subs are snorted or injected.

I don't know that subutex is necessarily easier to stop than suboxone. I don't think there is that much difference for most people. But if you are one of the people who react adversely to naloxone then that can be one of the side effects. It can make the entire process miserable for the patient if they don't do well with naloxone.

You might try dropping to 8mg if you want to. I don't know how people are actually feeling here unless they tell me. If you think you can do well at 8mg you should try it. You can always take a little extra after the fact if it doesn't work out like you thought. I would then start the four days of no w/d symptoms before dropping again by 25% though.

My whole thing with using either suboxone or subutex is that if I don't have a history of IV drug use, if I can do well with the subutex that is what I should be allowed to use. Or if a patient has side effects obvious to those of others who react to naloxone they should switched. The drs are trying to cover their liability by giving everyone naloxone because it helps prevent abusing opiates while on it. And I understand them wanting to do that. It's just that some people do better on subutex and they should be allowed to use it. God bless.

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Subutex/Suboxone cost about the same in Houston as well. I assumed that was normal until I heard here of a couple places that charged more for subutex. That makes no sense but what can I say?

There are people who take the suboxone abusively too, not just the subutex. Or at least I think it's abuse when we are taking much more than we need. That can be done and is done with both meds. The naloxone only makes one ill if the subs are snorted or injected.

I don't know that subutex is necessarily easier to stop than suboxone. I don't think there is that much difference for most people. But if you are one of the people who react adversely to naloxone then that can be one of the side effects. It can make the entire process miserable for the patient if they don't do well with naloxone.

You might try dropping to 8mg if you want to. I don't know how people are actually feeling here unless they tell me. If you think you can do well at 8mg you should try it. You can always take a little extra after the fact if it doesn't work out like you thought. I would then start the four days of no w/d symptoms before dropping again by 25% though.

My whole thing with using either suboxone or subutex is that if I don't have a history of IV drug use, if I can do well with the subutex that is what I should be allowed to use. Or if a patient has side effects obvious to those of others who react to naloxone they should switched. The drs are trying to cover their liability by giving everyone naloxone because it helps prevent abusing opiates while on it. And I understand them wanting to do that. It's just that some people do better on subutex and they should be allowed to use it. God bless.

Robert,

I'm getting in the habit of thanking you, but I want you to know that I really appreciate your time and effort, and always look forward to what response I might find that evening, or the following day. Just FYI!

Alright, so I just called my doc, and checked in with him, and I told him I was feeling just fine. BETTER than on the OxyContin actually, where I was always going through some kind of w/d in the morning for like an hour. This is no longer the case. My girlfriend also noticed "tremendous" improvements on DAY ONE of quitting Oxycontin, and replacing it with Subutex, followed by Suboxone. I'm more alert, more outgoing, more sociable. I just feel a whole lot better than I had after taking any Hydrocodone, Oxycodone with acetiminophen, as well as OxyContin.

So I asked him directly, "Dr., should I not be stepping down the Suboxone now". I'm on day on this day 7 of not taking anything but Suboxone/Subutex. He added that in about 4-5 days to take one WHOLE one in the morning, a half of one in the afternoon, and a half at night.

I asked again since I was feeling just fine, if I ought not step it down, or "I would ruin my treatment"...??

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Some more thoughts:

I really don't think he's after money, as he has me scheduled my next appointment in late May(!), and said for me to call him when I ran low on Suboxone, so he could prescribe me more. But I'm not even halfway through the 50 Suboxone 8/2. Do you think (and I hope that this does not happen and it is a stretch at worst, but I do live in movieland lol), that he might get some kind of kickback's for what he prescribes, and as a result, the more he prescribes, the more he "makes"?? I hate to even think about my doctor this way.

As far as maybe replacing Suboxone with Subutex real quick: I initially had 5 Subutex prescribed, took them as prescribed, only to be given 50 Suboxone, and I do not feel as good on Suboxone. By "good", I don't mean "euphoric", or "high" or whatever. Is this indicative of doing better possibly on Subutex??

I don't mean to drive you crazy, but I have my own business, and we do live in capitalism, but I do not care to be a victim of it, e.g. being on a brutally expensive medication for longer than is necessary.

By the way, and ONLY FYI, and hopefully without sounding too braggadocios, it doesn't matter where I place the OxyContin pills I have left, as I have access to C-II's, and even more access to C-III's, and C-IV's, etc. There are NO illegalities involved whatsoever, which is why I don't mind talking about it here.

At any rate, I want to get it from MY doctor, though. I want HIM to TRUST ME if there is to be a change in medication that I want to see happen. Anything else would just honestly disappoint me.

[Robert_325]

I don't know anything about your dr getting a "kickback" for writing suboxone prescriptions. I just think that for the most part drs are basically unable or unwilling to spend the time necessary with each patient to do this like we do it. Therefore they load up the patient on a dose that's high enough where no one should ever have to need more.

I think that's the way the drug company reps instruct them to RX. Drs are not taught how to RX new medications in school. They rely on drug company reps and drug company information instructing them on dosing instructions. How else would they know how to prescribe new medications? Then the drs read the drug company info suggesting long term use for whatever reason and that does make the dr money. So I guess it comes back to them eventually, however I don't know that it's a premeditated plan by the dr.

You're not driving me crazy. I know this is a difficult time as I've been there myself more than once. If you know that you felt better on the subutex, if you don't fit the profile of an IV drug user, then I would pursue the subutex. Like I've said I don't see a reason for taking a medication (naloxone) unless I need it especially if I react adversely to it. Tell the dr you'll sign a disclaimer that you're doing this against his advice if that will ease his mind. Hope that helps. God bless.

[brndout]

As far as my experience with a sub doctor ,it was much like everyone else on this forum. He didnt listen or care ,when I expressed concern about getting off he got mad.He really got upset when he knew I was on the internet.He told me "Take 8 mg. in the A.M. and *mg. in the P.M. and see me next month. There was no mention of a support group, what to do with anxiety, and I never filled out any agreement as I hear is required by SAMSA. I didnt even know it was an opiot. I did read the insert that comes with suboxone and I really cant believe that a drug would be prescribed when they dont know how to get you off of it. I quote "The decision to discontinue therapy with SUBOXONE or SUBUTEX after a period of maintenance or brief stabalization should be made as part of a comprehensive treatment plan.Both gradual and abrupt discontinuation have been used, but no control trials have been undertaken to determine the best method of dose taper at the end of treatment. " My comprehensive treatment plan was take 16 mg per day for two months and see him for refills . Somethings very wrong here!

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Hi Robert, melinda, and everyone else!

Yes, this is day 12 of not taking ANYTHING in the way of OxyContin, Vicodin, etc. Although Suboxone worked well, I still knew that I didn't need this "protection" that Naloxone supposedly offers. So he switched me to Subutex, and what do you know... I have much less nausea with it. I can just take one (8mg) and be just fine for the whole day, without any other side effects.

This drug has given me my life back already. I feel less "cloudy", I have WAY more energy, and my doctor is great. He said to call him at 10pm (the first night) to see how I was doing, and then again the following morning. Now, how many doctors do you know that do THAT!?!?

I listed all the medications I take for completely unrelated purposes, and he assured me that there ought not be any problems. He also took his time with me. It was not; $350 please, and here's your Subutex. If you saw his accomplishments. Pretty amazing. And one more thing which is always important when I go to a new doctor: I LIKE him. And so far, I want to say the feeling is mutual.

I still don't understand why he started me on Suboxone vs. what Subutex, which I am on now with tremendous success. It may very well have been a trust issue, as we only had one face-to-face meeting. However, after talking with me on the phone twice, he agreed to switch to the Subutex.

He has nothing to worry about with me, of course, but HE obviously didn't know that. He does now, obviously, and I look forward to seeing him again this week for a follow-up visit. I'm so very glad and grateful to have found this doctor.

Another good thing is that I don't even THINK about the opiates anymore. I feel SO Much Better!!! I am one happy camper, and now I just need to taper off the Subutex, correct?

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15

Hi Robert, melinda, and everyone else!

Yes, this is day 12 of not taking ANYTHING in the way of OxyContin, Vicodin, etc. Although Suboxone worked well, I still knew that I didn't need this "protection" that Naloxone supposedly offers. So he switched me to Subutex, and what do you know... I have much less nausea with it. I can just take one (8mg) and be just fine for the whole day, without any other side effects.

This drug has given me my life back already. I feel less "cloudy", I have WAY more energy, and my doctor is great. He said to call him at 10pm (the first night) to see how I was doing, and then again the following morning. Now, how many doctors do you know that do THAT!?!?

I listed all the medications I take for completely unrelated purposes, and he assured me that there ought not be any problems. He also took his time with me. It was not; $350 please, and here's your Subutex. If you saw his accomplishments. Pretty amazing. And one more thing which is always important when I go to a new doctor: I LIKE him. And so far, I want to say the feeling is mutual.

I still don't understand why he started me on Suboxone vs. what Subutex, which I am on now with tremendous success. It may very well have been a trust issue, as we only had one face-to-face meeting. However, after talking with me on the phone twice, he agreed to switch to the Subutex.

He has nothing to worry about with me, of course, but HE obviously didn't know that. He does now, obviously, and I look forward to seeing him again this week for a follow-up visit. I'm so very glad and grateful to have found this doctor.

Another good thing is that I don't even THINK about the opiates anymore. I feel SO Much Better!!! I am one happy camper, and now I just need to taper off the Subutex, correct?

Sounds like you're doing great now on the subutex. I like to hear about good news.

Once you've stabilized with the inductionand then spend up to a couple weeks on that dose you want to begin the taper. Reduce by 25% of your total daily dose every four days that you go without w/d symptoms per the TAPER instructions in the suboxone/subutex therapy link.

Take your time, do this methodically according to the suggestions on the link, and you'll be off everything including the subutex in a relatively short time. This should be relatively painless if you do it properly. You might have a few w/d symptoms but nothing really significant. And you can always take a sliver if gets tough. I don't expect you to have a lot of problems. Stay positive, stay in touch, God bless.

[IveHadIt_Qutting_8_15]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Sounds like you're doing great now on the subutex. I like to hear about good news.

Once you've stabilized with the inductionand then spend up to a couple weeks on that dose you want to begin the taper. Reduce by 25% of your total daily dose every four days that you go without w/d symptoms per the TAPER instructions in the suboxone/subutex therapy link.

Take your time, do this methodically according to the suggestions on the link, and you'll be off everything including the subutex in a relatively short time. This should be relatively painless if you do it properly. You might have a few w/d symptoms but nothing really significant. And you can always take a sliver if gets tough. I don't expect you to have a lot of problems. Stay positive, stay in touch, God bless.

Robert, I don't know what to say, but deliver another BIG Thank You! Sorry for the long email. I hope you'll have time at some point to address my, admittedly, lots of questions.

The naloxone had caused me constipation really badly. The reason that I am this confident that it was naloxone that was the culprit is the fact that the ONLY medicine I changed (well, dropped really) is this naloxone when I changed to Subutex. I always make sure to change NOTHING else as far as my other medication is concerned, so as to be able to pinpoint whatever medication is not helping me, and which to ditch.

Everything went back to normal when I was switched to Subutex. This is STUNNING. Why doesn't everyone go this route??

I'd like to ask you one more question regarding what I should ask for when I call him tomorrow, or Monday. Silly me, I only asked for 10 tablets.

I am taking notes as to how much I take of not only Subutex, but everything else that I'm taking. I don't want to lower the dosage too soon, or don't drop the dosage too late. Gotta love my BlackBerry.

I'd like to ask you if you, or the many other people you help so much, how many pills on average that I ought to ask for? I understand that they come in packages of 30 tablets. Much to my surprise, a lot of pharmacies that have a much better price don't want to give out more or less than 30 pills!?:?! The reason is always that they "don't want to break the package. Strange. I must have called at least called 15 pharmacies.

I have an appointment with my doctor on Thursday. However, I will need a few tablets before then. However, I might as well get the 30 tablets since it's much more convenient, and cost-effective when he calls it in.

What is appropriate to ask for? I figure 30 tablets will be enough for a good while, or, for that matter, it might be enough to get all the poison washed out. Being that this is day 13, do you think I should ask for 30 pills??

If you have patients in the Southern California area, I can only highly recommend my doctor. And please believe me, I know a good doctor when I see one, due to all of my GAD/MDD/SAD/BDD issues, and having lived on both coasts, so I have a lot of basis for comparison.

Thanks again so much! You rule!! But you knew that. heh heh

[Dagen]

.. hoping all was still going great your way.

Suboxone got me through detox. However, I was only on suboxone for 3 days. The clinic gave me a fairly high dose, then stepped down the following doses. The clinic I went to for treatment has a maintanance program and due to the expense ($600/month), I decided to go the traditional route.

The clinic had me disolve the Suboxone under my tongue, is that how you're taking yours? They said it works best this way. <just wondering>

[RubyDean]

Sounds like you are doing good, and congrats for getting off oxy's and any other narcotics.
Suboxone/Subutex does a good job in filling the void when we get off out drug of choice, as it should, it is strong stuff. You said yourself your are feeling 'too good' at times, almost better than when you were on oxy's for the latter part of your addiction. If you are stable on 8mg now after dropping from 12, I would suggest you continue the tapper plan and get down to 6mg, and then 4mg. Robert is a true child of God, and helps so many people on these forums. We are all very fortunate to be able to confide in him and get his sincere advice. He has a great deal of knowledge on this subject and drug. I have been on 1-2 mg for 5 months after a long addiction to oxy's and heroin, and it is not easy to stop if you stay on it too long. With the help of Robert and these boards I have started a plan and am doing much better. I am currently at .75 mg per day and will go to
.5 soon to be done in the near future. The reason I wanted to share this with you is because it is very easy to stay on subs because they make everything in our daily life much easier, but at the same time if taken too long they can become harder to stop. Obviously you have a good relationship woth your doctor and think a lot of him, which could make you more vulnerable to stay on them longer. You are doing great, and keep it up! I heard the other side has a beatiful view, and can't wait to see it.

[BagLady12]

Originally Posted by shadow10cats

Hi there:
I don't want to burst your bubble but be very careful with your use of suboxone or subutex. my case is similar to yours in that i was on prescription pain meds for years: norco and a fentanyl patch as a means to control chronic pain. and, probably bec the drs didn't know what else to do for me! in any case i was always concerned about long term effects of their use & it got to the point where they weren't very effective & my only choice would be to increase the dosages or try something stronger. neither was a good option for me & i was sick of them anyway. however, for a long time the fear of withdrawals kept me from getting off them. i work full time & did not have the luxury of a lot of time off to address the time to go thru withdrawals and get back on my feet. i heard about suboxone & my dr. had no reservations about using it. it worked awesome! i stopped all my meds on sunday evening & monday morning took 1/2 suboxone in the morning & 1/2 later on. no withdrawals what-so-ever! my plan was to be med-free but i wasn't worried about the suboxone. i was pretty ignorant of the after effects i only knew how it helped w/ withdrawals. much too late in the game i started learing how suboxone really works! it locks onto your brain & body like nothing else. it is very difficult to come off of. my plan of 2-3 mos on it turned into over a year! finally i had to have some surgery so in order to take the pain meds subscribed i needed to come off the suboxone. i took 10 days off work. i weaned down to1/2 or less suboxone per day; then per my dr's instructions, switched back to the norco 2 days before my surgery. my life became a living hell! i was so miserable & sick i had to cancel my surgery. i tried so hard to stick to the plan. i didn't touch the suboxone but no amount of norco made me feel better. even after 8 days of no suboxone in my body i was still so sick i could barely get off the couch. i felt just terrible. i couldn't miss any more time from work so my boyfriend convinced me to try just a small piece of the suboxone to see if that really was why i felt so bad. within 30 min i felt 100% better! so i talked to my dr & am back on the suboxone again. i am taking 1/5 tab in the morning & `1/5 later on if i need it. i can see now that this is going to be a long, slow process. this drug does work wonders eliminating the withdrawals but PLEASE, anyone reading this ..... get off the suboxone as quickly as possible. the longer you take it the harder it is. and, there is not magic pill to help with its withdrawals. read the blogs on the web. personally, i feel this drug is now being used much too liberally & patients are going to pay the price. i told my dr that if she has patients who are not hard-core drug addicts & simply need some help getting off prescription pain meds & are basically still taking them due to fears of withdrawal, to get those patients off the suboxone ASAP. no longer than30-60 days tops. in any case, that's my experience with this stuff. just be careful - there is no miracle pill out there & everything has consequences. this whole drug thing is out of control & if only i could turn back the clock to the days when i woke up feeling great & didn't have to reach out for a pill to take..

Really do i know what you are saying all to much. i am 29 in 2 days and have been on suboxone since i was about 23. i got addicted to Heroine when i was just shy of 21 before that it was percs,vics,and oxycontin really whatever opiate i could get into my body. it was bad. i thought this suboxone was a miracles drug miracles my ass the only miracles will be if i ever can get off it. its the hardest thing ever.i am now on subutex because i am pregnant. i have also had a chil addicted to suboxone 3 years ago he was very lucky and only withdrew fro 3 days probably because i cut my dose down so far even though my dr advised me against it. i am on 20 mg a day and its good for me i guess it could be alot worse some ppl are on 32?? i would just like off ll together that would be nice.

[RubyDean]

BagLady, it sounds to me like you need to talk with Robert very bad! Like now, and start a taper plan. I am glad you kicked the junk, but to be on suboxone/subutex that long, for so many years sounds terrible. The fact that you have had one child addicted is very sad, and I can only hope and pray that you can do this and spare your next child any of these problems. Please for yourself and the child talk to Robert and others on this site and get off this drug. I was a junkie for way too long and Ihave been on suboxone for 6 months and I know how difficult it can be to get off, but it is possible with he right plan, support, and guidance. i am down to less than 1mg per day and am hoping to be off next month. Make it happen! peace&love.