[MAGUS]

Hello all. Just started Robert_325's suboxone taper to kick my oc habit. I was up to about a 30mg roxi a day, maybe more like 1.5 and a few norcos thrown in there every once in a while. I lost all my numbers, told my friends not to hook me up anymore and secured #5, 8mg Suboxone tablets. I split them into 1/8 pieces because I don't think I will need a large dose to be effective. I plan to start on 1mg in the morning, which I just took about 45 minutes ago, and feel ok. Little nausea but that could be from the laxitives I took last night (hydrocodone constipation.) I plan to take another 1mg at around 4pm. I figure I will take 2mg a day for the first 3 days and then taper to about 1.5mg for the next four days. If I feel ok I will then taper to 1mg a day, split evenly into two doses of 0.5mg. Then another four days I will cut to .75mg and then after another four days to 0.5mg a day. By then I want to start skipping days. If I can skip one day, awesome, if I need to take a sliver, whatever. I will get it though. At this rate I should definitely have enough Suboxone to get through this planned process. I think for a drug like suboxone, a lower dose would benefit a relatively mild user (substance wise) but addict (mental.) I get cravings bad and believe in the placebo effect of needing to take something to feel normal. To get to bed last night I took a nice cocktail of vitamin store stuff. I took 2 5-HTP pills, 2-3mg Melatonin pills, 90mg of Co-Q10 and a liver detox pill with milk thistle and artichoke in it. After about an hour I was sleepy and actually got really good sleep. Hopefully this will work throughout the taper. Any advice would help. I went CT about 4 months ago and withdrew for about 5-7 days and it sucked. Trapped in my apartment doing nothing. Feeling like ******** and couldn't sleep a wink. Took a vike at day 3 and that helped knock the symptoms off. I have a job as an educator now and I can't afford to miss any work, simply isn't an option. Hopefully with this taper I will have reduced cravings, decent energy to work and eventually be able to not take anything within a few weeks to a month. What do you guys think? I can't do pills anymore. I spend way too much money for what I earn and to be honest, it isn't what it used to be. True I feel great on them, but the actions I need to take to maintain this habit isn't worth it. I could have had my own house and a new car if I didn't do this ********. Gotta stay strong and keep my nose to the grindstone or whatever the saying is.

[MAGUS]

UPDATE:

Day 1 continued;

Took 1 1/8 piece of an 8mg suboxone at around noon today. I took another 1/8 piece around 4pm. I feel no cravings which is awesome but I do have some other "symptoms." Whether its physical or mental I'm not sure. My legs are driving me insane. They are so cramped I can't take it. My back is also very cramped. My stomach hurts in a very general way. I have a feeling I will be getting very little sleep tonight. My friend is giving me a few Xanax tomorrow so hopefully if I'm bugging out I can take one and hopefully get to sleep. I was never a fan of xanax though and highly doubt I will start abusing them, especially since I'm only getting four of them to help with the sleepless nights. My goal is to get off my moderately low dose of opiods (30-60mg oxycodone and 30-40mgs hydrocodone a day) and not have to go cold turkey. I hope to severely reduce my withdrawals by tapering my opiate dependance on suboxone. I am using a small dose of suboxone because I feel as opposed to IV heroin, even at 60mg oxy and 40 hydro is a small comparison (I may be wrong, never tried H) so 24mg a day or even 8, 6 or 4mg seems like a high dose for my levels. Day 1 is nearing completion. Day 2 I will take another 1/8 piece of a 8mg suboxone (roughly 1mg) at around 11am-12noon. I will take another 1/8 piece around 4pm. Day 3 I plan to do the same thing and then start to taper from there. A lot of my "friends" use oxy and hydro and I feel a lot of ppl in my age bracket abuse these. Hopefully with my journal and the help of you guys I will be able to showcase how you can effectively taper off a pretty bad pill habit with a relatively small about of suboxone. BTW I bought 5 8mg tablets for $100. Roxis are $20 a pop, unless you buy in bulk like me and get em for $15. I bought norcos in bulk for $2.50 also. So A habit like that really kills off the spending money. Although I have a very good job, I really could use that money other places. Not to mention I used to be an olympic athlete. My pain meds really turned me into a dependant person. FYI I also quit smoking Friday, so I'm 3 days clean off cigarettes and now 1 days and 11 hours clean off oxy and hydro (whos counting right?) Wish me luck.

[anotheraddict]

MAGUS,

Glad to hear things are going okay with the subs. I never used them myself, but I wanted to let you know that I am right there with you on the cigarettes. I did it the other way around and got off Oxy 13 days ago. Only 2 days nicotine free, but I am free of any substances for the first time in half my life...I am in my mid 20s.

[melinda7.5]

Hi MAGUS
Your going to like all the extra money you will have your right you could buy a house and a car when you get off all this cr@p.
I was spending about 2 grand a month when I stopped my oxy habbit...
I have been clean since Aug and it feels so good...and I am a non smoker now too !!!...LOL...
Just get a little time behind you and your going to be fine...
Talk to you soon,Melinda

[Robert_325]

First thing DON'T take anymore laxatives. That's the last thing you want to take while stopping roxies or hydros even at relatively small doses like you were at. You will probably get a little diarrhea anyway.

I want you to know that I would have never recommended you using subs to do this detox. Considering what you're using I would have said to cold turkey using the Thomas Recipe for the w/d symptoms (which shouldn't be that bad). I was taking thirty 30mg roxies per day plus other garbage when I detoxed.

The sub taper program I wrote is designed for someone using a larger cocktail of opiates than what you describe. However if you're going to use the subs then you need to use enough to stop the w/d symptoms. The cramping legs, stomach issues, no sleep, etc are w/d symptoms.

I would recommend that you double the 2mgs per day to 4mg so the w/d symptoms stop. What you're describing ARE w/d symptoms. Take 2mg twice each day. Do that tomorrow and see how the day goes. In fact, you should increase your dose this evening. Take 2mg tonight, repeat the 2mg first thing tomorrow and in the afternoon. Then let me know how you're feeling in the afternoon.

We need to come up with a short low-dose program for you. I will help you but we need to do this one day at a time. I suggest you plan on being OFF everything within 2-3 weeks. This is going to be a very short program just to get you past the worst of the w/d. Any longer than that would be abusing the subs in your situation. Just let me know how tomorrow goes on 4mg total for the day. God bless.

[MAGUS]

I can deal with the symptoms though. Small price to pay for such a lengthy and decently sized opioid habit. I don't want to go up to 2mg doses. I think it's too much for me. I can honestly do this for the next 3 weeks rather than quit cold turkey. So long as it stays like it is now though. Hopefully the taper will work at low doses like this. I still plan to use your theories though. Consider me an experiment. Lets see if someone can detox off that much opiate with 5 suboxone pills. A complete 5 pill detox. I'm combining it with a few supplements, a better diet. The laxative I used was the day prior to my last dose and two days prior to my first suboxone. Probably cutting it close though. Today I was extra-normal, if you know what I'm saying. Clockwork. Legs are ehh right now at midnight of day 2 start. Not craving at all. Probably because my receptors are full, but at least I might not be adding to my receptors, if that makes sense. Keep as low a dosage as possible. For as short as possible. Maybe try to get off it in 2.5 weeks if I really focus on set taper scheduling. That is my goal. If it doesn't work and its too much, I will default to Robert_325's exact suggestions. Thanks for the encouragement guys. It helps since everyone in my family is obviously in the dark about my "issue" as I like to think of it. My detox is going to be a very personal journey with this as my outlet and a couple friends. I actually paid for some suboxone for a couple friends who are both also following the taper schedule from the most famous Robert re subs. We are quiting together and going through a lot of the same things together. We should have a very drug free summer, ready to begin training again and getting life back to the best it can be, rather than get the highest I can pull off. Ill let you guys know how day 2 on Suboxone goes tomorrow sometime after my first dose at 11ish. Maybe earlier if I cant sleep. Thanks again for the support. For now I feel well. Normal almost. BTW also smoking a bit of weed to calm the stomach and ease a little anxiety. Definitely needed a cigarette today...also held strong. This is the first day in a long time I didnt put at least half a roxy up my nose, the other half in my belly and then down 4 or 5 chewed up norcos. Just 1/4 tops of a 8mg suboxone. Take care.

[Robert_325]

Just do whatever you think is best I guess. Good luck.

[MAGUS]

Yeah thanks. I think your theory is pretty much on point with what I learned in college. I studied Biology as a pre-med student and my school had a huge neuroscience department. Pretty interesting stuff. Tapering is deff the best method. I tried tapering using OC and I just craved more and ended up doing the same amount or more. With the suboxone I feel like I dont have too many cravings at all. The only real negative I feel is the leg cramping. I'm going to pick up some potassium and magnesium tomorrow to help with that. I'm also drinking a lot of water. For sleep right now I take 5-HTP and melatonin as previously stated. If this works I would like to see if anyone else could use such a low dose while still using the induction and tapering method Robert_325 has outlined. Maybe we can get some rating system going where a certain dosage of oxy/hydro equates to a certain induction and taper schedule of suboxone. I feel this would help people who may only have access to "street sub." Knowing that "hey I can get 10 subs, and it'll be enough" would be a huge boost to someones fragile confidence. IMO of course. This is all speculation and I might fall on my face tomorrow morning. But if not, and it works, I'll be able to show that someone can come off a steady oxy habit on only 5 suboxone pills and that is huge. These doctors are going to really get sued once the truth comes out ab how they are stringing people along on these opiates. Its wrong. I've read so many stories. All my wrestling buddies back in my home country can get the stuff without insurance because its government sponsored and the docs over there actually get people off all opiates. Maybe I can get in touch with a doctor overseas and he/she can share some methods they use. If anyone is wondering I'm using the Robert_325 tapering method just with a lower dose. About 2mg a day instead of 4mg.

[MAGUS]

just wanted to point out a few things. u said u wouldnt suggest suboxone for such a low dose but it was 100mg a day of oxy/hydro. that might not sound like a lot to you but its still a lot and can create quite a powerful craving and withdrawal. the w/d symptoms u stated are i feel slightly misquoted. cramping legs, true. stomach issues, i chalk up to the laxatives since it has been very normal all day save the very early morning which was before i took subs and wasnt withdrawing too hard off the oxys. i was just tearing a bit, yawning and had a chill. the sleep problems, i said i got good sleep. i am fearing the leg cramps may keep me up tonight but as far have not experienced sleep issues. u may have suggested the withdrawal recipe but i cant withdraw like that. i have a job and i cant take time off so i have to taper off using an opiate. i have high hopes for this and i think, together, we as recovering addicts can help outline our recovery success so others can choose which option suits them. its all dosage dependent though. the lower oxy/hydro habit will be obviously proportionally smaller than a decent H addict. with ppl doing different tapering methods, using same principals, we can see how the drug really works for different ppl in different situations. but like i said, its just an experiment. worse comes to worse i go to the doctor, get on a program and follow youre 4mg/day taper. im doing well with the 2mg for now so we will see. wish me luck and thanks again for all the support. couldnt do this without you Robert_325.

Originally Posted by Robert_325

First thing DON'T take anymore laxatives. That's the last thing you want to take while stopping roxies or hydros even at relatively small doses like you were at. You will probably get a little diarrhea anyway.

I want you to know that I would have never recommended you using subs to do this detox. Considering what you're using I would have said to cold turkey using the Thomas Recipe for the w/d symptoms (which shouldn't be that bad). I was taking thirty 30mg roxies per day plus other garbage when I detoxed.

The sub taper program I wrote is designed for someone using a larger cocktail of opiates than what you describe. However if you're going to use the subs then you need to use enough to stop the w/d symptoms. The cramping legs, stomach issues, no sleep, etc are w/d symptoms.

I would recommend that you double the 2mgs per day to 4mg so the w/d symptoms stop. What you're describing ARE w/d symptoms. Take 2mg twice each day. Do that tomorrow and see how the day goes. In fact, you should increase your dose this evening. Take 2mg tonight, repeat the 2mg first thing tomorrow and in the afternoon. Then let me know how you're feeling in the afternoon.

We need to come up with a short low-dose program for you. I will help you but we need to do this one day at a time. I suggest you plan on being OFF everything within 2-3 weeks. This is going to be a very short program just to get you past the worst of the w/d. Any longer than that would be abusing the subs in your situation. Just let me know how tomorrow goes on 4mg total for the day. God bless.

[Robert_325]

Just want you to know that you're not trying anything new with a 2mg induction and what not. I've done 2mg inductions successfully before more than once. I suggest that people start all inductions with 2mg to see if that amount works or not. Check the INDUCTION section of the system I recommend for using subs.

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

per your first post .....

"Hello all. Just started Robert_325's suboxone taper to kick my oc habit. I was up to about a 30mg roxi a day, maybe more like 1.5 and a few norcos thrown in there every once in a while."

your last post ....

"... u said u wouldnt suggest suboxone for such a low dose but it was 100mg a day of oxy/hydro".

I have to ask you which one it is? You're talking about two different amounts of RX drugs here going from one or 1.5 roxies and a few norcos "every once in a while" to 100mg per day. You're talking about using two different amounts here in the same thread while telling me I'm misquoting you. You're changing the amount you use from one reply to the next.

I suggested you increase to 4mg based on your symptoms. You're saying your symptoms are from laxatives ... well so be it. First off I would NEVER recommend anyone going into opiate w/d taking laxatives. Your symptoms were not laxative symptoms I assure you.

your first post ....

I do have some other "symptoms." Whether its physical or mental I'm not sure. My legs are driving me insane. They are so cramped I can't take it. My back is also very cramped. My stomach hurts in a very general way. I have a feeling I will be getting very little sleep tonight.

These are likely opiate w/d symptoms not laxative symptoms. Never heard of laxatives making one's legs and back hurt while keeping one awake all night unless it was from being in the bathroom. And if they were laxative symptoms then you were not in opiate w/d and had no business even starting on subs yet as you had not reached a level of w/d where induction was merited. You should be at a 26 on the COWS worksheet prior to being inducted for the subs to work properly. (The COWS worksheet is available in the INDUCTION section on my aforementioned link)

I understand that you want to establish some type of standardized program and that is exactly what I am against. Drs try to tell people that if you're taking this then you should do this. You're trying to do the exact same thing.

from your post ....

"Maybe we can get some rating system going where a certain dosage of oxy/hydro equates to a certain induction and taper schedule of suboxone. I feel this would help people who may only have access to "street sub." Knowing that "hey I can get 10 subs, and it'll be enough" would be a huge boost to someones fragile confidence."

Your desire to do this is fine but IT DOESN'T WORK like that. This goes against EVERYTHING that I talk about in my system for using subs. I suggest a totally-symptomatic system for using subs. I contend that any standardized program where you say "this addiction equates to this induction and taper schedule" is wrong as that is exactly what the sub drs try to do. I disagree with that totally as it doesn't work. Everyone is different regardless of whether their opiate usage is the same or not. If a standardized system worked there would be no need for this forum. Everyone could just refer to your new standardized system and that would be the end of the story.

You have every legitimate right to try to establish any type of program you want to. That is fine. But don't make out that your program has anything to do with the system I suggest as they are NOT the same, not even close.

from your post ....

If anyone is wondering I'm using the Robert_325 tapering method just with a lower dose. About 2mg a day instead of 4mg.

Have you even read my suboxone/subutex therapy post in Featured Drugs? You're not interchanging 2mg for the 4mg I recommend. I don't recommend 4mg or any specific amount of medication during induction. I recommend getting stabilized AFTER one has reached a 26 on the COWS worksheet with whatever dose that takes. The mg amount has nothing to do with it.

Please don't say that what you're doing is a take-off from the system I recommend. What you're doing goes against what I suggest for people wishing to use subs to detox. Please refrain from saying the system you're trying to develop is related in any way to my system as it isn't. I decline being associated to what you're doing here.

I wish you the best of luck in whatever you're trying to do. But leave me out of it please. IF you decide you want my help it would be using my system. There is nothing even remotely similar to what you're doing to the system I suggest. I can refer to additional statements in your posts that are contradictory to what I suggest. Please refer to what you suggest as what you suggest and leave it at that. Leave me out of it as you're not following anything I suggest doing. Best of luck to you regardless, just leave me out of it. God bless.

[MAGUS]

fine i wont mention your name or methods again since I am obviously so far detracted from them. give me a break. tapering methods have existed for a very long time and there is no set way to taper. for evey patient there will be a different treatment plan. dont be offended I am not doing as you say. I woke up today symptom free and got a decent night sleep. my stomach is fine. my taper is working. fortunately for me i did quite a bit of research in the neurosciences, specifically researching opiates in college. I get it. it isnt about milligrams, its about dosage AND the affinity to fill receptors. a small dosage if it has a high affinity will replace a much higher dosage of another agonist. this is why i dont need 4mg a day. approx 2mg a day is working fine. day 2 on suboxone day 3 off oxy/hydro and so far symptom free minus the beginning of the first day, which is obvious because this is how it HAS TO BE DONE. i had to wait for the symptoms to start the suboxone. you arent being fair and you are taking my methods as a challenge to yours and its not. its a simple idea tapering and you did not create or inspire it. cutting down is an old idea. i have a college degree in biology/pre-med and many years in the medical field as a paramedic as well as I am in my second year of medical school at a very good university in new york. i know there can be more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. if you were taking a medical approach you would welcome this new method, or schedule. it can only help the community. and thats why we are both here right? to stay clean and help others get clean? some people might be able to only buy street suboxone. some might only be able to get 5 pills. for those people, maybe I can show them it can be done. If your habit is like mine, than maybe my method will work for you. maybe not. i am an example of a method, not proof a method works. this is a journal. for everyone to see and comment on. but please do not come at me, stating that what i am doing is wrong, or that i am somehow manipulating numbers. i gave an estimate, which you took as the sworn truth and tried to dose me on that. honestly that was a wreckless move. if i say 1-1.5 roxies and a few norcos here and there, before trying to dose me you would ask more specifically how often i take the pills. how many. duration. what type of pills. what dosage were they. whens the last time i took them. these are all called a report. that is what you must base treatment on. i know how many i take and i was giving a general amount because i am showing generally how bad i was. on a bad day it could be 100mg+. on another maybe half that. my blood serum levels could be anything and giving me a blanket dose of 4mg is just as bad as the doctors. please dont take offense but there is more than one method out there. as someone who has gone CT before and felt the symptoms, having no symptoms 2 days after my last pill seems to be a testament that it is working to some degree. i will let you guys know how i am feeling tonight after i take my second dose of approx 1mg suboxone. and please dont take this the wrong way. im a believer in your system to a certain degree. but you said it yourself, you arent a doctor. and to debunk the entire medical community is a little arrogant. you know better than everyone right? well i guess i do too. i know better than the doctors and now you. you know better than them and me. i guess we are in the same boat. lets see if it works before ripping my schedule up. its day 2 and you have absolutely no right to question anything i do because i am having great results. thank you. much love despite the static. we are all here for the same reason. let my "theory" stand alone then. i dont claim any part of your system if thats how you want it. ill call this one "The 50-100mg Oxy-A-Day, 5-8mg Suboxone Taper Schedule." maybe it will work. if not you may be righter. no one here is a doctor though and no one here is me except myself or you except for you. different treatment for different patients. take care everyone. ill respond in approx 8 hours.

[Robert_325]

Do it however you want to, that is your right. I'm not the least bit threatened by your taper plan. I have no patent on anything nor do I believe I invented a silly drug taper. You give ME a break.

I never said that you couldn't do any type of taper any particualar way. I just said do not link ME to what you're doing as I disagree with your method. Very simple, I don't wish to have my name associated with something that someone will read and link it back to me. I've been here a long time, lots of people know me, and I don't want people thinking I am part of some type of plan that I don't agree with. Doesn't matter who is right, this isn't a contest. I just don't want you tying my name to what you're doing.

As far as comparing educations that is ridiculous. You don't know my education. It doesn't matter. I was working with addicts before you were likely born.

Do your taper, try to get clean, I wish you success, but don't link me to your plan. I have that right to ask that you leave MY NAME off your plans. It matters not to me that you're in medical school. I detoxed an MD right here on this forum a couple months ago so drs are addicts too. I think you have the arrogance thing turned around backwards. God bless.