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Suboxone - Self-Induction at home - Long but please read
Suboxone - Self-Induction at home - Long but please read
I relapsed after 10 years of sobriety. Started getting high late last summer and am now shooting about a gram of dope a day. I kicked with the help of subs in late October. Knew not a whole lot about the drug except that it was supposed to cure me of withdrawals. At the time I was going back and forth between heroin and roxy 30s. I was doing about a half a gram of dope or about 120 MGs of roxy. When I was ready to stop my buddy sent me 12 subs. Said I probably could just take half of one and get right. He tried to explain induction but I didn't know what he was talking about. One night I took half a sub and I woke up the next day feeling normal. Went through most of the day and took another half. I did things improperly but it worked. I would just take a small piece a couple times a day until it was gone and I was fine.
I then relapsed and spent the next month shooting a lot of dope. This is when I got up to a gram or more a day. Christmas I spent out of state at my sisters. I ran out of dope but had a bunch of subs. I did my last shot Christmas morning. I was already feeling squirrely by 6:30 at night. My buddy was wanting me to go to the casino but I wasn't feeling up to it. I took a Sub probably 8 hours after my last shot and waited an hour. I felt funny and still had the chills. I then took another sub and within an hour I was off to the casino feeling fine. Once again no proper induction and I didn't experience withdrawals. I think I took a total of 16 and no more than 20MGs. Had me feeling fine all the way through the next day when I arrived home and promptly copped before I even arrived at my house.
This whole time I was using heroin since I had first kicked and failed in November, I told my girlfriend I was on suboxone. I bugged out one day in late January, threw everything away, did my last shot and went over to her house. I had 5 subs in my pocket and was confident I had nothing to worry about. I told her I was really using H and was ready to quit. I was real emotional. She hugged me and then told me she had to leave me. We went back and forth and decided to go to an NA meeting together. I think she thought if I went to an NA meeting then that would mean I was serious about getting sober again. We met in sobriety years earlier.
It was a late meeting and when we got out it was around Midnight, maybe 6 hours after my last shot. This is where things are foggy. I forget when I took my first sub. I think I might have taken it during the meeting. Anyhow on my way back to her house I started getting the sweats. I hadn't experienced withdrawals once since I had kicked in the late 90's. This whole time I was using I had avoided running out miraculously. We're driving to her house and I am getting increasingly sicker. It was very rapid. I was confused thinking "I shouldn't be getting sick yet". We pulled up to her house. I was very sick but didn't let it show and I thought I'd be fine as I had more subs in my pocket. I could tell my pupils were huge. My eyes hurt and my skin felt like ice. We decided that I would go into her house and spend the night. She said she felt more comfortable with me there. Neither of us knew what we were in for...especially myself. They had worked in the past, right? I immediately popped another sub under my tongue and went inside. She was doing laundry and I plopped down on her bed waiting for the drugs to take effect. Well, that never happened and within 45 minutes I was sitting naked in the bathtub with hot water showering over me.
She was finally in bed and I was rolling around moaning. She was concerned. She had never experienced someone going through withdrawals. I was beginning to get concerned as I had already dissolved 16 MGs and was sicker than I had ever been. I began to wonder how much of the drug had actually disolved under my tongue. Over the next 10 hours and through the night I had managed to take at least another 12 MGs. No relief. How was this possible???
It was now the next afternoon and I had been going through Withdrawals for 16 hours. I had misplaced my last sub and needed to go home to get more. I asked her to come and she wouldn't. She wanted me to kick cold turkey. I went home. I was sick as a dog. I ended up calling my dealer and met him. I grabbed a 40, did the whole thing and returned to my house. My sister and her boyfriend showed up. I was still sick and the dope didn't have much of an effect on me. Another friend of mine showed up and decided he'd spend the night with me. I took some sleepers and actually fell asleep. I woke up the next day feeling quite normal. I was jonesing mentally because that was my ritual but I didn't feel like I needed anything.
I remember coming out of my room to my sister and her husband and my buddy and I yelled "I'm cured, ?????es!!". I then made the knuckle headed decision to call my dealer. I snuck outside, met him real quick, came back in, fixed in the bathroom and came out like everything was fine. My girl came over and we got breakfast. Her and my friend both thought I had beat it. I went along with it. I then used for the next few weeks under the radar.
The decision was made that I needed treatment. I talked to my sister and we decided I would come down to her house with some subs and try again. It took me two weeks but there I was driving down to Santa Fe with a couple loaded rigs and a bottle full of suboxone, Clonopin, and Ambien. I did all the H I had by 2 AM and went to sleep. Woke up the next morning ready for the horror but it wasn't there which was surprising considering at this piont I needed to fix every 6 hours or so or I would start getting the chills. Most of the day went by and I started to wonder if my previous kick had got most of it out of my system and maybe I wouldn't experience withdrawals this time. It had only been two weeks, right? Wrong! I fell asleep on the love seat and woke up in the middle of the night cramped up but tired. I dissolved a sub under my tongue and laid down and fell asleep for a few hours. I had waited about 24 hours from my last fix to start. I Woke up sick as a dog and I don't really remember what happened here. I got down there at 11:00 PM on a tuesday and it was now Thursday morning. The next few days were a blur of sickness. I didn't eat, sleep or drink anything until Sunday. By late Saturday night it seemed the subs started to do their job. Right around the time I would have been coming out of the main part of my WDs anyhow. I stayed there for 10 days and did about 12 MGs a day. So it appeared to me it took me 4-5 days to stabilize...4-5 days of living hell.
I got some of my strength back and came back home to Colorado. Within a couple days I was getting high again. I finally made an appointment with a Sub doctor. That was this past Friday. I wasn't sick enough for induction so he gave me directions and a script for a weeks worth. I was told to start the next day when I was into withdrawals. Well here I am and It's Monday morning and I still haven't induced. I'm scared as hell. I don't want to go through hell again. I don't understand why I went through hell at my sisters. I thought I did it the right way. I waited until I was in withdrawals, took enough of the drug that it should have masked the WDs but it didn't. I went through 5 days of hell....serious hell. I had 25 subs with me and I went through hell.
I don't know what to do. I have a script for the film this time. Doc said wait till withdrawals, take a half and wait about 40 minutes to an hour. If I don't feel better take another half. Repeat this until I have taken up to 5 or 6 halfs and I should definitely feel better by then. Whenever I feel good that will be my dose for the next day. He believes just about anyone should be good with 16 MGs. Said that 94% of your opiate receptors are blocked with 16 MGs.
So I took my last shot at about 10:00 this morning. I am going to fill my script this afternoon. Tonight I am going to puff some herb and take something to put me to sleep, probably Nyquil. I have insomnia and no real shot at falling asleep completely dopeless. I'm just worried I will wake up tomorrow feeling roughish, I'll take my first strip. I think I need to start with a whole strip. I shot about 1.5 grams yesterday. There's no way I'm going to stabilize with 4 MGs. But yeah I'm just really freaked out that I will be sitting here tomorrow at 3 pm dissolving my 20th MG and in full swing WDs with no sign of relief. In the past 4-5 weeks I've gone through kicking twice with full WDs and a bottle full of Subs. I have no idea, but both times it took me going through a day or days of pain before I stabilized. I can't go through that again. I'm grateful I have the film as it was nearly impossible for me to dissolve even one pill under my tongue.
Anyone have any suggestions? Why is it that in November when I induced improperly and On Christmas day I was fine? Why is it when I tried to do it the right way I got sick as a dog? I'm so confused and my body wont make it through another bout of cold turkey kicking. I didn't eat anything for 5 days. I couldn't hold down fluids. I would have died of dehydration had it not started to turn around on the 5th day. We were ready to go to the ER for an IV bag.
Hi-I was not addicted to same drugs as you but opiates just the same. I can relate in that I took Subs for the first time in Detox 3 days after my last drug. I was in withdrawal for sure. The next 3 days i threw up more times than i can count and was sicker than a dog. The Dr. kept giving me more Subs, thinking it was more withdrawal..i got so sick I had to get an IV and given a bunch of fluids.It was a nightmare, esp after 3 days of already doing detox, I had 3 more days of it. I finally stabilized on the Subs..This was 7 months ago-i am now dealing with facing Sub withdrawal. i guess my main point is that I got really, really sick from the initial dose of Subs, even inducted as suggested in a hospital setting. I now think I was basically having a seriously bad reaction to the Subs themselves..When my body finally got somewhat use to them and the dose was cut, I was no longer that sick..
Just a thought...after reading your post..
Hey Hizzles....just finished reading through your post and the only advice that I can give is to check out Robert's taper plan:
There are tons of people that have gone this route and it seems to really work. I don't know from personal experience as I did a shorter sub detox but if you read around this site you will hear of plenty people that kicked all habits using this technique. I am sure Robert will eventually get to your post and help you through this. And there are plenty and I mean PLENTY of other people that will help you beat this addiction. We are all in the same boat even if its a different drug of choice but we're all here to help. Keep posting and let us know how things are going for you. Remember, you've put your body and brain through A LOT in the past so you cant expect this to be a painless process. You are going to have your good days and your bad. Fighting these addictions (at least for me) is ALL mental. You will learn to put up with any physical w/d's, but the mental side of things is where it gets tough. Just remember to stay strong and things will get better. Tomorrow is day 30 completely clean of opiates and day 25 no subs!! If I can be of any other assistance just let me know. I will keep an eye on your thread!
Good luck my friend!!
First of all thank you for the replies. I guess what I'm worried about is that I'm possibly on too much H for the subs to take effect without going through a few days of hell?
Did you read through Roberts plan? From what I remember you want to start your induction approximately 12-24 hrs after your last use (I think that's what it said) I would definitely read his plan and then if you have any other questions post them here
I think you need to start looking for aftercare/meetings/therapy at this point and not worry so much about the withdrawals. You need to be at least a 26 on the COWS worksheet ( google COWS ) which is moderately severe withdrawals. You will experience some pretty nasty withdrawal before you get relief. You will also experience withdrawal after you finish your suboxone. There is no get out of jail free card with drug withdrawals, you can only minimize them and the best way for that is to follow the link above to a T. Quitting drugs is a lot more than eating a few suboxone and wanting to quit, you need to work at it and make the right choices along the way, whether it means impatient, continued maintenance or whatever you choose, it's not easy but it's important to educate yourself before making each decision, otherwise you'll end up in precipitated withdrawals over and over again
Swt, in your case, I think you just had a bad reaction to the sub, especially if you were given suboxone. Certain people do get very ill. When they switch to subutex, they feel a whole lot better. A very small minority are just unable to deal with sub and get a bad reaction, just like with any other drug, even aspirin. Hizzles, your case is totally different. You are taking the subs in such a wrong way, it's unreal. First off, from what I got out of your post, you alternate between dope and sub - not a good thing at all. If you have sub in you, the dope won't really have the desired effect and if you have dope in you and take the sub too soon, you will go into precipitated w/d which it seems is what happened these last times you took it. You have to make a decision, dope or sub. Another thing is you're always taking doses which are really too high. I was addicted to opiates for over 40 years straight, over 30 years of that on methadone, as strong as you can get. I started on 16 mgs. and it was way too high. It made me anxious and jumpy and gave me insomnia. It wasn't until I got way down to about 4 mgs. that I started feeling fine. So I would have to say your dope consumption is NOT too high for a lower dose of sub to work. The main thihg here is you can't keep going back and forth. Only you know if you're ready to stop shooting dope. (I was a dope shooter for 10 years before switching to methadone and on methadone for 33 years before switching to sub so I kind of know what I'm talking about)....If you are committed to stopping, follow RObert's taper plan which is mentioned in a post above. If you are not ready, you're just wasting the sub and the dope. You can also kick dope c/t following the Thomas Recipe which you can google. Nothing is easy about this. We all have to pay the piper in one way or another. Good luck whichever way you go.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure if you read my whole post. I was sober for a decade. I have quit heroin before. I have gone through WEEKS of rolling around soaking wet in a bed with just enough strength to get my vomit into a bucket. I've gone sleepless for two weeks. In 1999 I went into detox. I had been using dope for 5 years at that point and was physically dependent for almost 3. I had a 20+ bag a day NYC habit. I was screwed. My last stint in detox was early January of 2000. From that point I went into a halfway house. I spent the next decade in AA with some NA. I was very active. I traveled the country going to conferences and meeting people. I sponsored men and worked the steps. After nearly a decade sober in AA I came to the conclusion I was not an alcoholic (I actually started wondering at about 6 years). I did the Marty Mann test suggested by the first lady of Alcoholics Anonymous. I passed with flying colors. I left AA and drank like a normal person for months...couple drinks here and there but I never got drunk.
Originally Posted by yezdegerd
I had a back injury and started taking pan killers. I also started a new relationship with a woman whom I love that unfortunately happens to bring pain into my life. From there the pain killer intake grew to the point where I found myself purchasing H because it was cheaper. I was still only using two or three times a week. Then one morning, I'm sure most of you are familiar with this morning, I said "Oh ____! when is the last day I didn't use???" I think I came up with 13 days. And there I was...fearful of going through any withdrawals. Even though it was nearly 11 years back, the pain I went through was fresh in my mind. That is not something you ever forget. Even though I knew I might not even be hooked yet, and if I were it wouldn't be terrible as I wasn't using a large amount, I allowed this fear to bury me in the hole of physical dependence. I wasn't even feeling what I was using. I'd just use enough in me to put a bit of a spring in my step. No nodding or anything like that. I had been down this road before and I knew exactly where I was headed.
The last few months I haven't had any enjoyment using. I use to avoid getting sick. I have been sitting here with a bottle of suboxone for 2 months. I have tried to kick recently with the pills and both times I got extremely sick. One time I can understand because I only waited 6 hours. The other time is baffling to me. I waited almost the full 24 hours if not longer. I was ill. I was in the cold sweats. Mind all foggy and eyes watering. Stomach cramping. I was there. I took that first pill - no relief. I also had a strip I took....no relief. I received no relief until maybe 72 hours after attempting induction. I have spoke with suboxone patients that I'm friends with. I spoke with my Doctor. No one can make sense of this.
I spoke with my Doctor this morning as we were supposed to have an appointment. I told him I was only able to pick up the medication last night as I didn't have the cash. I was supposed to start the induction on Saturday. So now it's looking like tomorrow morning. I should get one full nights sleep before waking up in withdrawal. that's how it works for me. I can't sleep while on H. It doesn't happen. I nod and go from my bedroom to my sun room, back and forth but I never have REM sleep....not under the influence. BUT - if I get high in the morning and do nothing else the rest of the day I'll get in one good nights sleep before waking up to the horror. Now I have to look forward to waking up to that horror tomorrow morning. I'm very nervous about this. If I pop those strips and things just get worse I don't know what I am going to do. I swear my body can't handle another 3-4 days of opiate withdrawals. It was real bad the last time. I probably lost 20 pounds in 10 days. I couldn't move, talk, drink, smoke or do pretty much anything. I'm a good addict. And like any good addict I do things to excess. Which means I pump a whole lot of H into my system. I just have a lot of fear that the subs wont be able to keep up with the amount of dope I've been doing. The Doc says that that's impossible. I guess we'll see.
I may drive down to my sister's again. That way I won't be able to cop and keep putting this thing off like I have been. That's the issue. I go 8 hours and then say "Okay, 1 more shot. That way I'll be able to start tomorrow morning" or whatever it is I tell myself that gives me a good enough excuse to use one more time.
Ad far as post dope goes I will be doing some counseling and may go to NA/CA. I have a large number of friends in sobriety. The bulk of my friends are sober as I spent the last 10+ years sober in AA. What I am saying is I have a network. I have network. I don;t want to live like this anymore. I have people to turn to. My girlfriend and most of my friends today are sober. They're here for me. I have a lot of support.
Wasn't going between the two. Initially I thought subs were a miracle drug that I could take if the dope man ran out. This is probably because when I had first used subs (which was subutex) I didn't have a dependency yet so there was no precipitated withdrawals. The subs just did the trick - I didn't jones for dope. I felt fine as a matter of fact. There is so much information out there and so many opinions on this drug. When I ran out of dope on Christmas I definitely had a habit. That's for damn sure. I took a suboxone (Orange pill) 6 hours after my last shot. At this point I would literally start having cold sweats 6-7 hours after a fix. The drive to my sisters is about 6 hours. I would fix before leaving and I'd be in early WDs by the time I arrived. So yeah, 6 hours after my last shot...moderate withdrawals? I wouldn't say so. Within 1.5 hours and maybe 18-20 MGs of suboxone I was feeling fine. This is what I do not understand. I did not wait 12-24 hours. At the time when I did this I was using as much as I had ever used since relapsing. Had to be close to a legitimate gram and a half per day. Then when I tried to take the same route in late January I got sick as a dog immediately. I was experiencing full WDs within 30 minutes of taking a sub. Then this last time I tried to kick I waited 24 hours. I was sick. I woke up in the middle of the night on a love seat bewildered. I was horrified. I knew I had no more dope. I also knew I had 24 subs - a combo of both Suboxone and Subutex. Well it took from around 2 am Wednesday morning until the following Sunday before I stabilized...no joke. I was out of it. I couldn't answer my phone, surf the internet, return phone calls, eat, drink, or move for the most part. We almost took me to the hospital for an IV bag. I have detoxed cold turkey, with methadone and with suboxone (successfully) and this time with the subs it was a legitimate cold turkey kick. Like I said I received no relief until I showered and laid through 5 days of agonizing hell.
Originally Posted by newyorkgal
It's not a allergic reaction because when I took the subs back in October and November they worked fine...no sickness. They did their job. I felt fine and was not jonesing for opiates. This is why I'm so worked up about things. I thought I did it right this last time and I went through hell. All I can come up with is that the drug for some reason never made it into my body sublingually. And I even have a hard time believing that because 8MGs of what I took was a strip. I know I got to a point where I was just like "Screw it - this stuff isn't working" and I just stopped taking it. Maybe after 28 MGs. But who knows maybe out of that 28 MGs only 12 made it into my system over a period of 24 hours.
So I think either my writing style is confusing or you misread what I had written. I have never gone back and forth between subs and dope like day to day. I have used subs on one occasion when I ran out of dope and couldn't get any until the next day. I have used subs to try and kick a few times since last October. The first time I did it with a small dosage. I would take less than half a pill a day. I made it a few weeks and then got back on the dope. Then I ran out of dope during my Christmas visit. I had a few subs with me so I took them and they worked. Then I kicked again with subs recently and it didn't work.
I'm not trying to have a contest here or anything. I just know that the amount of H I shoot is a lot. The people who I get high with from time to time are floored by the amount I put into my body. Sometimes it's $200 a day...never less than $80 which is allegedly 1.25 Gs. When I was just doing a small amount per day 4MGs would cut it. The time I tried to kick in January I took over 24 MGs and it took me over 24 hours to stabilize. I went though horror. One of my buddies is on 24 MGs and another is on 8 and has tapered to 4 on his own. All I know is when I got sick at Christmas I did not feel close to normal until I had done at a minimum 16 MGs and it was probably closer to 20. It was hard to know exactly as they were all broken into pieces.
I don't want to eat more than I have to. Subs do nothing for me. I don't get high when I take it. I also have no desire to be on them for a long period of time. I've quit heroin before successfully for 10 years. I too know a thing or two about both using/addiction and sobriety. I know that I do not enjoy using anymore. I barely feel anything. It doesn't matter how much I do, I do not experience euphoria. A few days in this past week I went absolutely wild hoping to feel something significant...but nothing. I'll end up ODing if this keeps up. I got to this point years ago. Someone in the medical field told me that is a common way of overdosing. Although you aren't feeling the euphoria, you are still suppressing your breathing and can in fact overdose without ever feeling "high". When I shoot a gram in 10 minutes I wonder how much more I really have to do before I fall out.
10 years sobriety was nice. I lived well during those years. I know what it took to get me there and I am prepared to go that route again. I am living like a zombie. I have sold a lot of my toys. I have spent around $30K on drugs since October. And the craziest part of this whole story is no one even knew what was going on with me until I actually came out and told them. Sure I had lost weight. I just attributed that to Adderall and no one questioned me further. But I have been a relatively high functioning addict. Problem is, there's no pay out. And that is what has actually made it a bit easier to get away this time. Back east it was China. I'd get an unbelievable rush. This western sandy tar stuff does nothing. I barely feel it. There's no point.
I will keep you updated. I just spoke with my sister and I think I'm going to drive down there with my sub films and nothing else. It's just real hard to begin induction. I have to be in withdrawals and it's hard for me to get their without picking up the phone and having something delivered. It's so easy. I just have to walk out to my driveway. If I'm down there, that's not an option. And once I'm on the subs for a few days I don't feel the H anyhow. So hopefully this will pan out.
I'm going to go read that thread.