[HenryNCBA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Yes you can use a sliver if you really need it. You have to use your own judgement here as only you know how you really feel. It just sets you back a few days if you do it which I don't advocate but it's okay if you're having a problem that you have to deal with. Use your own good judgement on it. And if you do a sliver at this point keep the sliver to the equivelant of one dose. So .28mg would be the sliver dose if you have to do it. God bless.

Robert,
Thanks for the info. Good to know. If I should use a sliver I will let you know also. Thanks and have a great day!
I'll check in again later today.

Henry

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Robert,
Thanks for the info. Good to know. If I should use a sliver I will let you know also. Thanks and have a great day!
I'll check in again later today.

Henry

Henry .... you have to know that you have totally "ROCKED" doing this program! I have complete respect for you, for your willingness and open-mindedness, for all the things you've done that are necessary for a person to beat a drug dependency problem like you're doing.

Some people may refer to it as being naive doing anything someone you don't even know like me says to do and that is okay too. That is their problem if they feel that way. Being naive is what it can take to beat a problem like we have ... sometimes in life we have to trust someone if we expect things to change.

You have made giving advice about this plan so easy with your attitude. And if you feel that you need a sliver at some point I will support you in whatever decision you make. You've earned that respect and you have more than proven you're in this for real.

Just let me know if you decide you need the sliver so if I can help you in any way I will be aware of what is going on. You're the man! But sometimes there are other things we can do vs taking that sliver depending on what the specific symptom is you're experiencing. We'll talk later bro! God bless.

[HenryNCBA]

Good morning Robert,
I don't know what happened to my reply post I could have sworn I put up yesterday to your last post. I could have sworn I so it post as I know I read it but do not see it posted. Must be loosing my mind. Hey I know! It's the W/D! Yeah that's the ticket! That's my story and I'm stickin to it. Can't remember that country singers name that sang that.
This morning I am pretty tired. I took an Ambien last night and for some odd reason I tossed and turned and just could not sleep. Finally fell asleep around 02:00 only to wake up at 03:00 then again at 05:00 to get ready for work. Had a few hot flashes last night with the sweating but other than that no muscle twitching or jolting of any type that I am aware of. My B/P last night was slightly elevated but still in a great range and it was 106/64. Pulse was a slow, strong, steady 62 BPM. Feeling a little flushed as I sit here typing this. I dosed at the recommended .28 mg at 08:15. I haven't felt it kick in just yet but should be kicking in soon. It usually takes a couple hours before I start feeling it. Other than being sleepy I feel pretty good.
Hope you are doing well my friend!

Henry

[htoth19]

YAY for Henry! Your doing great! Keep up the great work it will get better and better and before you know this will all be a memory!

[HenryNCBA]

Originally Posted by htoth19

YAY for Henry! Your doing great! Keep up the great work it will get better and better and before you know this will all be a memory!

Hi htoth19,
Thanks for the well wishes. Really appreciate it. Hope you are doing well yourself!

Henry

[concernedmom1988]

Robert or Melinda, I've been reading your posts to several people and it took me a long time to figure out how to post to you. I need help I'm confused if I'm doing the right thing with my 21 year old son. He's been trying to taper down off of suboxoen and is now at 2mg a day so I thought I could help him get off by using the Thomas recipe. He can go about 30 hrs inbetween using the 2mg. While trying to do it on his own he found it too hard and used some loratab 10's he told me 3 but this didn't work, he got honest and told me he did this and that's when I decided to step in and help. I got everything for the T recipe and we started it yesterday, last night was a nightmare. He hadn't used in over 24hrs when we started and by the 30th hours he was feeling like he could jump out of his skin. I gave him the valium 10's (2) I thought this would put him to sleep but it didn't so I gave him another one 2 hrs later still no help, I gave him the supplements, magnesium and copper and prop, potassium like the recipe called for when i gave him the valium gave him more magnesium and potassim and started the hot baths after the 2nd bath which was about 6 hours after the first dose valium I gave him 2 more valium 10's still not sleep and body esp his back and legs were killing him he wanted to die and was begging me for loratab which i had but didn't let him know also had 2mg of suboxoen but didn't want to go that route I wanted to do what ever I could to just get him trough it so after the begging and 3rd hot bath I gave him a xanax 1mg and the b6 and L-thr that the recipe called for not sure if it was this combination or what but an hour later he finnally went to sleep and I stayed with him since it was almost daylight now he sleep until 11:30 and it was past time to give him the valium so I woke him up, thought it would be better to keep the med and supplements in his system. He weak this morning but the body aches aren't bad, why did he hurt so much all through the night and not this morning. Do the wd just happen through the night? It's going to rough tonight if so, I'm exhausted. Just need to know if I'm on the right track any help would be so appreciated. I know he has a tough road ahead even when he gets trough this. But I have to try and help him, I Love him very much.
Thanks concerned mom.

Originally Posted by tired2

Robert I had internet issue's up and running now . Just to let you know I'm doing great not sick at all. I took my 6mg this morning . So tonight I taper to 4mg ? I can't wait getting closer to the end . Still a long way to go but every little bit counts. What do I take in the morning?

I tried calling docror several times nothing...He is a total ***.Will keep trying.

I'm still confused on posting do I always come to my thread and click on last or is there an easier way ? This probably sounds stupid I know.

Talk soon and God Bless

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by concernedmom1988

Robert or Melinda, I've been reading your posts to several people and it took me a long time to figure out how to post to you. I need help I'm confused if I'm doing the right thing with my 21 year old son. He's been trying to taper down off of suboxoen and is now at 2mg a day so I thought I could help him get off by using the Thomas recipe. He can go about 30 hrs inbetween using the 2mg. While trying to do it on his own he found it too hard and used some loratab 10's he told me 3 but this didn't work, he got honest and told me he did this and that's when I decided to step in and help. I got everything for the T recipe and we started it yesterday, last night was a nightmare. He hadn't used in over 24hrs when we started and by the 30th hours he was feeling like he could jump out of his skin. I gave him the valium 10's (2) I thought this would put him to sleep but it didn't so I gave him another one 2 hrs later still no help, I gave him the supplements, magnesium and copper and prop, potassium like the recipe called for when i gave him the valium gave him more magnesium and potassim and started the hot baths after the 2nd bath which was about 6 hours after the first dose valium I gave him 2 more valium 10's still not sleep and body esp his back and legs were killing him he wanted to die and was begging me for loratab which i had but didn't let him know also had 2mg of suboxoen but didn't want to go that route I wanted to do what ever I could to just get him trough it so after the begging and 3rd hot bath I gave him a xanax 1mg and the b6 and L-thr that the recipe called for not sure if it was this combination or what but an hour later he finnally went to sleep and I stayed with him since it was almost daylight now he sleep until 11:30 and it was past time to give him the valium so I woke him up, thought it would be better to keep the med and supplements in his system. He weak this morning but the body aches aren't bad, why did he hurt so much all through the night and not this morning. Do the wd just happen through the night? It's going to rough tonight if so, I'm exhausted. Just need to know if I'm on the right track any help would be so appreciated. I know he has a tough road ahead even when he gets trough this. But I have to try and help him, I Love him very much.
Thanks concerned mom.

Hi concernedmom ..... got to love them moms! When everyone else runs from us we still can count on our moms. You're a good mom and you have my respect for trying to do this. You've got to understand though that even the valium are not going to put him to sleep if he is going through w/d from jumping off at 2mg of suboxone. That's way too high to stop at.

The Thomas Recipe is a great tool for helping with opiate w/d but with suboxone I WOULD NOT jump off abruptly even at 2mg. I'm assuming you've read me telling others to reduce their total dose by 25% every four days. Your son is still at too high a dose to jump off with the Thomas Recipe. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will be SOOOO much easier to continue to taper him down at 25% every four days.

It's been a couple days since he's used any subs if I read your post correctly. I would give him a 2mg dose now, that should make him stable immediately more or less. That will be all he needs for the day. Then tomorrow we should begin him back on the taper and drop his dose to 1.5mg divided into two equal doses of .75mg each dose over the next four days.

I can explain how to cut the pills (do you have 8mg pills?) to get to these strange dose amounts. Don't worry about that. First thing is I want to be sure you're on the same page as I am and that you're willing to go along with what I say.

I would continue the taper until we get him down to .5mg daily. Let's see how he's doing at that point, but if you've read my posts you've seen that I suggest that he goes through a process of skipping days rather than stopping abruptly. Stopping RX pills abruptly is what I usually suggest the Thomas Recipe for. This is going to be a very tough detox to depend on the Thomas Recipe to get him through this.

Suboxone is a LOT different than stopping hydrocodone, percocets, or similar RX opiates. He could be sick for weeks jumping off even at 2mg and I sincerely hope you'll go along with me on this. I do this every day and I know what I'm doing. I can help you and your son. But as I said, I would continue the taper and not have him jump off yet even with the Thomas Recipe. After I observe how he does down to .5mg it will be easier for me to make the right call as to what is the best thing for him to do when he reaches .5mg.

It's really important that we do this last 2mg the right way. If he does this wrong, he can be getting set up for a relapse which we definitely don't want him to do. So give him 2mg right now and let me know how he feels in thirty minutes.

BTW .... how much suboxone do you have? If that 2mg is all you have how quickly can you get more? This is really important that he does this the right way. Let me know. God bless.

[HenryNCBA]

Hello Concernedmom 1988,
I can not speak for Robert but he would be the best person to answer your questions. I am by all means no expert on the subject of working with subs. He is the man on that one so trust him completely and what ever he suggests follow his recommendations to the letter. That is the only way it will work. I know every case is different as every person is different but he has been doing this for one very long time and has gone through a tremendous amount himself so he has first hand knowledge and experience that as far as I am concerned surpasses that of any doctor. That said I understand your concern as no one likes to see a loved one suffer. Your son is suffering from opiate withdrawal. I along with many others also went through the same thing. The leg pains not to mention hip pains feel like it is coming from both the bones and muscles and is a deep and very severe ache type of pain and movement can and sometimes causes a sharp stabbing and throbbing pain. You feel many other symptoms and some such as if you were having the flu and believe me I would rather have the flu than to go through that again. It doesn't take much to hook someone on opiates or opioids drugs. Mine was scrip pain med which I took exactly as directed but it was the duration of time that did it for me. The baths are a good idea. I and many others will say that during W/D the bath seems to be your best friend and I almost wanted to live in my tub. It was like as soon as I got out then within an hour I desperately wanted to get back in it. I felt better in the hot water and although not great it was a whole lot better than just lying around feeling terrible. You have come to the right place here concernedmom. There are many knowledgeable and supportive folks here and they are great. They sure have helped and are helping me. My recommendation in Robert's absence, until he replies to you, is to stop giving your son so many different kinds of meds. It is not a good idea to put one med on top of another only to stack on even another. So far he has Loratab which is a narcotic pain med. Then he has valium which is a benzo sedative and now he has Xanax which is another benzo used to treat anxiety. Too much in the system is not good especially if in a short time frame and can cause more complications that it doing good. Having said that until Robert gets back to you stay with the hot baths and no more Loratabs or benzos unless Robert suggests it. Believe me you don't want excessive medication in his system. It sounds to me like your son was not inducted properly meaning he was not "stabilized" properly. He also sounds like he is not a good candidate for cold turkey. 2 mg of Suboxone may not sound like much especially if you look at a little 2mg tablet but please believe me that these are very powerful little meds. I am on taper and I was inducted by Robert who got me stabilized with a very low dose and at 1.25 mg I felt great. That is 1.25 mg a day! Split into two increments of course and he can explain the cut and math on that. I am now down to .28 mg twice a day and even at that low of a dosage I STILL feel W/D symptoms so just jumping off Suboxone at 2mg I would say that "of course your son is going to feel terrible". Perhaps a proper induction and a proper taper is the best way for him instead of C/T. I know we all want to get off the drugs as quickly as possible but why suffer needlessly if not necessary. I believed in the C/T too but very quickly changed my mind when I was having what I thought bad W/D symptoms and since Robert got me stabilized I now know that this route is the best as I can still function daily with very minimal issues. One thing is if it goes the route of induction you don't want all these opiates, benzos, and subs in your sons system. Now this may sound really strange but induction works best if your son is at the height of his suffering from W/D. The worse the W/D the better the induction and the better he will feel. Robert had me feeling fantastic within a few hours and that was all it took. My doctors had me on way too high a dose. It is natural for all of us to want or give more meds when something doesn't seem like it is working but in the case of what is going on here more is not better.
I'll keep watching your progress here and stay in touch okay?

Henry

[HenryNCBA]

Hello concernedmom,
Never mind. I see Robert already replied to you before I did. He replied while I was still punching up my response. Seeing that he has posted to you I have one suggestion for you. If you choose to go with what Robert says, now this is VERY important, please please please do exactly as he says! Too many people will take off doing what they feel is right then complain something is not working or they feel worse and might even be in relapse! You don't want that! So I am not trying to be mean or sound harsh but am sincerely saying it like it is and my best interest is for this to work for your son so please if Robert instructs you to do something please cross the "t's" and dot the "i's" as that WILL make all the difference in the world.
I'll be watching and cheering for you two. Hang in there. You are not alone!

Henry

[HenryNCBA]

Hello Robert,
Just checking in. Took the .28mg Subutex this morning at 08:15 and .28mg a little over half hour ago at 15:20. Feeling a little anxious today and a bit depressed. Sweating bouts hit a couple times and feel like I am coming down with a light case of the flu. All this though I know is from W/D. No cold like symptoms just feeling run down, tired, and a little aching. Tonight I am going to go out raining or not and push it a few miles. I know I won't want to do it but then again hey nothing in life is free so no pain no gain. So far I haven't taken any slivers on any dose. I know you said if I really should need one, you don't advocate it but just in case, it would be the .28 mg dose on this current taper. I will continue this regime until further instructed by you. I'll check in again later this evening. Hope you are having a nice day my friend!

Henry

[Robert_325]

Henry .... Melinda is going with me to the Univ of Wash hospital tomorrow morning so we'll be crashing early tonite and we'll be leaving very early in the morning. I wanted to get a message to you this evening while it's early. Sounds like you're either getting a bug of some kind or else you're having a little w/d.

One thing to remember is that if we never feel any symptoms at all then we have never really pushed ourselves. That's just common sense. I wanted to suggest to you that as well as you've done don't think less of yourself if you need a sliver. I'm not pushing it, you have to make the decision, but don't think that you have to be a "tough guy". LOL There is nothing to be ashamed of about taking a sliver.

I won't be around in the morning as we'll be leaving before 6:00 AM and if you need a sliver buddy then take it. You've done great and there is NO reason to make yourself suffer. I wanted to show you some support and not just push you to be perfect all the time. Cut yourself some slack so this doesn't become a dreaded part of your life. It's okay if you need to take a sliver my friend.

I support you with whatever you decide but you don't have to be a martyr. God bless.

[HenryNCBA]

Hello Robert,
Thanks for your well wishes. I think it is actually W/D I am feeling and not picking up a bug. That's okay though as I really believe this is just par for the course and besides I see so many others that are in much worse condition that I am or have been so I count my blessings. I will stay on this current program until advised differently and don't worry about the sliver deal. It is just comforting to know it is there "if" I should need it. I am actually more looking forward to pushing the envelope a little this evening when I go work out. Last time I pushed it was a couple weeks ago and even though I have been exercising almost daily I feel confident that this is the right time to push myself just a little bit. I am starting to feel that good old "burn" feeling from working out which I haven't felt that burn in many months and I like it. Lets me know I am doing something right.
I wish the best for you tomorrow Robert and I am so very happy for you that finally you can get started on this knee issue. I know it has been there for a very long time my friend but it sure would be nice to put this one issue behind and be able to progress. Hello to Melinda for me. If you need anything you know how to get hold of me and also have my number so please don't hesitate to call my friend.
Waiting to hear some good news about your visit tomorrow with the doctor.
Have a wonderful and restful night my friend!

Henry

[HenryNCBA]

Hello Robert,
Hey buddy I don't know who is more excited about your doctor visit. All of us here on the forum or you!!! We are all cheering, praying, well wishing for you good friend!!! I have a feeling today is going to be a good day for you.
I know you won't be in till much later and that is okay. Just a little update on my taper and how I am doing. Woke up depressed. If anxiety was there it was so little I really didn't feel it much. No aches or pains even though I worked out pretty hard on the weights last night. Weather was kind of crummy so I didn't go out like I planned to. Tonight I will though regardless. I try to keep with cardio at least every other day minimum. Pulse is at a steady 58 BPM. B/P normal at 108/56. Flu like symptoms dissipated and no longer there. Other than that feeling fairly well. I will continue to dose as instructed at the .28 mg.
Waiting to hear back on how your visit went.
Have a nice day my friend!

Henry

[concernedmom1988]

Hey Henry, sorry to read your not feeling up to par, hope things are better for you soon. When I posted it was the morning after a hellish night with my son, I needed reasureance that I wasn't hurting my son. I guess because of the time difference I didn't get to read Robert or your post until just a few minutes ago. My son is doing alot better unless I'm imagening it, the thing is he was buying off the street an 8mg suboxeon and cutting it into pieces that usually lasted about 4 days now that I talked more with him he said it lasted longer than that but in the last month due to getting strep and mono, (he was very sick) he came clean with us about what he had been doing. The loratab was a one day thing last week because he said he was feeling so bad, but I'm not sure how he even felt it if he had the suboxeon in his system. He been on the sub for a while trying to taper down, (unsuccessfully). Any way by the time I read Roberts post and yours my son is doing better, he actually slept last night about 4 hours but that's better than the night before which was 0 and three hot baths. He didn't have any baths at all last night. He's eating very well today too. I am still giving him valium but the doseage is half of what I gave him the first day and I taper that down to nothing in the next few days. He seems to be doing so well and I hope this thing is not like seeing the pink elephant as some might call it. We have been talking all morning and it reminds me of the son I knew so long ago. Don't get me wrong I know we have a long way to go. I'm encouraging him to seek out a support system weather it's NA, Spirtual or medical but I know he an addict an needs that. He's not hurting like he was that really makes me feel better. If there's something I need to know please let me know and please know I thank you for replying to me. You and Robert. I just hope the worst of the wd are over now. Best wishes in your recovery and thank you also thank you to you Robert if you read this. Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Hello Robert,
Thanks for your well wishes. I think it is actually W/D I am feeling and not picking up a bug. That's okay though as I really believe this is just par for the course and besides I see so many others that are in much worse condition that I am or have been so I count my blessings. I will stay on this current program until advised differently and don't worry about the sliver deal. It is just comforting to know it is there "if" I should need it. I am actually more looking forward to pushing the envelope a little this evening when I go work out. Last time I pushed it was a couple weeks ago and even though I have been exercising almost daily I feel confident that this is the right time to push myself just a little bit. I am starting to feel that good old "burn" feeling from working out which I haven't felt that burn in many months and I like it. Lets me know I am doing something right.
I wish the best for you tomorrow Robert and I am so very happy for you that finally you can get started on this knee issue. I know it has been there for a very long time my friend but it sure would be nice to put this one issue behind and be able to progress. Hello to Melinda for me. If you need anything you know how to get hold of me and also have my number so please don't hesitate to call my friend.
Waiting to hear some good news about your visit tomorrow with the doctor.
Have a wonderful and restful night my friend!

Henry

[HenryNCBA]

Hello Concernedmom,
Glad to hear he is feeling better. I don't know if you are going to follow Robert's advice or not but my advice would be to do so. He really knows his stuff and even my own doctor has said "well there are certainly some bright people out there" and Robert actually knows more about how to handle these situations that medical professionals as far as I am concerned. Many folks on this site will also agree as he has helped countless people and has been doing this for a very long time. That being said and going forward it is nice to know that you are supporting your son and that you two seem to have opened up honest and productive communications with each other. That is very critical and there is no reason not to have open communications with each other but many times that is not the case unfortunately. One thing you probably know or may not and just in case you do not and that is buying drugs off the street is highly illegal. Especially "controlled substances" which is a felony in itself. Also one can not guarantee the contents and quality of drugs bought off the street. I would recommend you get him in to a sub doctor for a proper scrip and proper treatment. Trying to treat him yourself and using the suboxone he bought off the street is not a good thing to do and it just might happen that more harm could happen than good. Subs are tiny but they are VERY powerful and many people think that just because they don't feel it working they take more which in itself could be the worst thing to do. Subs I have found is one of those drugs that unless you REALLY know what you are doing with it that it is best left to those that really do which is why I trust Robert completely. For what it is worth I don't trust easily either. Also with subs sometimes less works best even if you don't feel the effects as you think you should you may be going in the wrong direction. Please check your son in with a good sub doctor and get him started on a good program. I don't know if the valium and Loratab, both which is prescription, is scripted for him or not and if it is yours or anyone else’s you don't want to get caught doing that as that is also illegal. I'm not trying to be harsh or scare you but just stating a fact and I don't want you folks in any sort of trouble. Once you get everything in line and still wish help please let us know. We will always be here for support and if you check around this site you will see there are many great people here will to help, offer advice, and support.
Hang in there!

Henry

[tired2]

Hi Henry,
Sorry you had hit a rough spot.I'm glad you have started to feel better.You are doing awesome my friend. You have the same detemination I had. I only wished I had found Robert before my doctor threw me on that 16mg. However as you already know I was lucky that I did find Robert shortly after starting.I only wish I had gotten the proper induction as you had got.I would have been done tapering so much sooner.
Oh well thats water under the bridge now.I'm just happy to still be opiate free since June 14.
Roberts right you have to feel some w/d heck if we didn't it would be to easy to fall back into our old habits.Guess thats goes for my benzo taper which I must go post on.
I hope Robert got some good news today he has waited to long.
Well later my friend,
Pam

[HenryNCBA]

Originally Posted by tired2

Hi Henry,
Sorry you had hit a rough spot.I'm glad you have started to feel better.You are doing awesome my friend. You have the same detemination I had. I only wished I had found Robert before my doctor threw me on that 16mg. However as you already know I was lucky that I did find Robert shortly after starting.I only wish I had gotten the proper induction as you had got.I would have been done tapering so much sooner.
Oh well thats water under the bridge now.I'm just happy to still be opiate free since June 14.
Roberts right you have to feel some w/d heck if we didn't it would be to easy to fall back into our old habits.Guess thats goes for my benzo taper which I must go post on.
I hope Robert got some good news today he has waited to long.
Well later my friend,
Pam

Hi Pam,
Thanks for the support! I really appreciate it. Well got some bad news but I kind of expected it. Remember when I was battling my insurance regarding the Subutex? Well I just received a fax from my doctors office and I also just spoke to him and he said that the insurance company just doesn't care and will not allow the subutex to be authorized and for me to stay on the suboxone. He said he spoke to the doctor at, Anthem Blue Cross, explaining that I can't use the suboxone as I have negative reactions to it but they didn't care. I filed a grievience back on September 24th with my insurance and have not received anything nor heard from them so I just called. They said my request for expedited review was denied so it will take a full 30 days minimum before they review my grievience. I couldn't get mad at the guy on the phone as it wasn't his decision and he is just doing his job but can you believe this B/S? He said that I didn't meet the criteria for "expedited review" and I said "what is that something life threatening?" He said "exactly". So my doctor is stuck on this one and I could tell he was frustrated with them which is also why, I found out from the office folks, why they don't take Anthem Blue Cross because of all the ********. I am on a PPO too! He did say though that as long as I am willing to pay for them out of pocket he will continue to write the scrips for as long as I want. He asked if I wanted to get back on the suboxone and that if I do then possibly at a very low dose I may not have the reactions I did at the higher dose and the symptoms may dissipate but he said everyone is different and that I really should stick with the subutex but it was my call on that one. He was amazed though at my progress and was really happy I am flying through this. He praised Robert last time I talked to him too Said for me to save the receipts also and use that to claim it against insurance but also wants to find out the total dollar out of pocket and time wasted not to mention frustration. I think he is drafting one nasty report to publish about patient abuse from the insurance companies and I am pretty sure he is going to list them by name. He asked all sorts of questions as to who I spoke to for the grievance and things. He was noticeable mad at them. I don't mind paying if I have to because first of all I got myself into this mess and second as Robert said it is a small price to pay for being clean.
I'll check on your benzo thread to see how you are doing my friend.
Thanks for the cheers again it really means a lot to me!

Henry

[tired2]

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Hi Pam,
Thanks for the support! I really appreciate it. Well got some bad news but I kind of expected it. Remember when I was battling my insurance regarding the Subutex? Well I just received a fax from my doctors office and I also just spoke to him and he said that the insurance company just doesn't care and will not allow the subutex to be authorized and for me to stay on the suboxone. He said he spoke to the doctor at, Anthem Blue Cross, explaining that I can't use the suboxone as I have negative reactions to it but they didn't care. I filed a grievience back on September 24th with my insurance and have not received anything nor heard from them so I just called. They said my request for expedited review was denied so it will take a full 30 days minimum before they review my grievience. I couldn't get mad at the guy on the phone as it wasn't his decision and he is just doing his job but can you believe this B/S? He said that I didn't meet the criteria for "expedited review" and I said "what is that something life threatening?" He said "exactly". So my doctor is stuck on this one and I could tell he was frustrated with them which is also why, I found out from the office folks, why they don't take Anthem Blue Cross because of all the ********. I am on a PPO too! He did say though that as long as I am willing to pay for them out of pocket he will continue to write the scrips for as long as I want. He asked if I wanted to get back on the suboxone and that if I do then possibly at a very low dose I may not have the reactions I did at the higher dose and the symptoms may dissipate but he said everyone is different and that I really should stick with the subutex but it was my call on that one. He was amazed though at my progress and was really happy I am flying through this. He praised Robert last time I talked to him too Said for me to save the receipts also and use that to claim it against insurance but also wants to find out the total dollar out of pocket and time wasted not to mention frustration. I think he is drafting one nasty report to publish about patient abuse from the insurance companies and I am pretty sure he is going to list them by name. He asked all sorts of questions as to who I spoke to for the grievance and things. He was noticeable mad at them. I don't mind paying if I have to because first of all I got myself into this mess and second as Robert said it is a small price to pay for being clean.
I'll check on your benzo thread to see how you are doing my friend.
Thanks for the cheers again it really means a lot to me!

Henry

Hi Henry,
Yes, I remember the problems you had with your insurance. I can't believe they would insist that you take a medicine that you have had a reaction to.So even though it's been a month and it is new script they still won't pay
What I don't get is they had no problem paying for pain medicine.So if you ended up in the hospital from a reaction to the medicine would they want to pay for that.Well at least your doctor is on your side. I know that's not much help when you have to pay out of your pocket.Just like Robert said its a small price to pay for getting clean. Do they even look at a persons grievance or appeals? I would ask them to put you denial in writing. It's also better than being sick through your whole taper. I really hate insurance companies. I never did like PPO's.I thought most people had Kaiser Ins. where you live. I am sorry you have had to go through all this its just so wrong.
Well don't let this get you down.Your doing great and will be done very soon.
Later my friend,
Pam

[HenryNCBA]

Originally Posted by tired2

Hi Henry,
Yes, I remember the problems you had with your insurance. I can't believe they would insist that you take a medicine that you have had a reaction to.So even though it's been a month and it is new script they still won't pay
What I don't get is they had no problem paying for pain medicine.So if you ended up in the hospital from a reaction to the medicine would they want to pay for that.Well at least your doctor is on your side. I know that's not much help when you have to pay out of your pocket.Just like Robert said its a small price to pay for getting clean. Do they even look at a persons grievance or appeals? I would ask them to put you denial in writing. It's also better than being sick through your whole taper. I really hate insurance companies. I never did like PPO's.I thought most people had Kaiser Ins. where you live. I am sorry you have had to go through all this its just so wrong.
Well don't let this get you down.Your doing great and will be done very soon.
Later my friend,
Pam

Hi Pam,
Just got home. What a day. 9:45 pm and been on the go from very early this morning. I hate insurance companies too. I chose the PPO as I would rather have self directed care vs. referals which is why I chose the PPO rather than HMO. Kaiser out here is well lets just say I am glad I am receiving the lousy treament from my insurance instead. I won't let it get me down I promise you that. If I really look at it like Robert said, speaking of which I see he is back and replied to your post and Robert if you read this I am so happy for you!!! Well as happy as can be considering!, it is a small price to pay for being clean. You are right though that some bean counter is looking at some listing and pressing the go or no go button. My doctor even spoke to their doctor and couldn't believe what he was hearing. Oh well what goes around comes around. I have developed a ripping headache. I don't know if it is because of the dose change or what went on today. Probably a little of both. I do know that I am feeling the hot flashes and the sweating that comes with it so that part I know is the W/D. I was going to get some exercise in too tonight but it is just too late now and if I do go out I will get wired from the adrenaline and be up most if not all night. Oh I forgot. I do have the denial in writing. My doctors office faxed it to me. So I am putting a binder together on this subject and everything that happens and is said is being document about my insurance company. I will post it too. Not here but on another site and copy them in on it. If they don't like it then they can take me to court and spend tons more money and they will lose because everything is true and factual and I am just expressing my opinion and last I heard that is not illegal. Anyway I am going to go to bed. I see Robert said okay with the increase of .5 for your taper! Yea!!! Thanks for all your support my friend and talk again soon.

Henry

[tired2]

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Hi Pam,
Just got home. What a day. 9:45 pm and been on the go from very early this morning. I hate insurance companies too. I chose the PPO as I would rather have self directed care vs. referals which is why I chose the PPO rather than HMO. Kaiser out here is well lets just say I am glad I am receiving the lousy treament from my insurance instead. I won't let it get me down I promise you that. If I really look at it like Robert said, speaking of which I see he is back and replied to your post and Robert if you read this I am so happy for you!!! Well as happy as can be considering!, it is a small price to pay for being clean. You are right though that some bean counter is looking at some listing and pressing the go or no go button. My doctor even spoke to their doctor and couldn't believe what he was hearing. Oh well what goes around comes around. I have developed a ripping headache. I don't know if it is because of the dose change or what went on today. Probably a little of both. I do know that I am feeling the hot flashes and the sweating that comes with it so that part I know is the W/D. I was going to get some exercise in too tonight but it is just too late now and if I do go out I will get wired from the adrenaline and be up most if not all night. Oh I forgot. I do have the denial in writing. My doctors office faxed it to me. So I am putting a binder together on this subject and everything that happens and is said is being document about my insurance company. I will post it too. Not here but on another site and copy them in on it. If they don't like it then they can take me to court and spend tons more money and they will lose because everything is true and factual and I am just expressing my opinion and last I heard that is not illegal. Anyway I am going to go to bed. I see Robert said okay with the increase of .5 for your taper! Yea!!! Thanks for all your support my friend and talk again soon.

Henry

Hi Henry,
I'm sorry you are experiencing some w/ds I think the headache is more likely from all that you have been through and possibly your taper also.Not to mention that you worked 15 hour yesterday.Your body has been through alot physically and mentally in the last couple days.You need to give yourself sometime to clear your head.You have been doing awesome with your taper.Along with busting your but.I never could exercise late or I would be wide awake.I hate those hot flashes and sweats.All this stuff going on with the insurance company can cause anyone to end up with a hugh headache.I'm glad you are getting everything together as your doctor suggested.That way you will have everything in order to access when needed.I didn't know Kaiser was a HMO.I just heard Jennifer talk about it when she lived out west.I never did like HMO's and those referrals.Actually I don't like any ins. these days.Mine hit that no button on my ultra sound for my nodule on my thyroid.I guess they rather wait till it gets worse and then it will end up costing them more.Whats up with that?
Well hope you are feeling better today.
Yes I heard from Robert as you saw I know he is very happy about not having knee replacement.
I will probably taper the 2.5mg rather than the 2mg since Robert has no problem with that .I just need to know what dose he would have me take it from so I will need to ask.You know me I just want to get this over with and I really have no plans next week so why not go for it.
Well hope you have a nice weekend and will talk later my friend,
Pam



Well I'm going to bed so I will talk to you more later my friend,
Pam

[HenryNCBA]

Hello Pam,
Glad to hear that Robert doesn't need a knee replacement. That is what I am afraid I might need in the future so I am being very care about how I exercise with it. I just walked in the door about 20 minutes ago. I didn't have access to a computer today as I was working out of the office. Today was one of those 19 hour days. I'm getting to old for this stuff and I can really feel it. Unfortunately as the holiday season gets closer it gets busier. You are doing great with your taper. Hang in there. I hate HMO's too and that is why I went with a PPO. I can't tell if I feel terrible because of the W/D or being on the go too much. I'm going to bed as I have had enough fun for one day. Have a wonderful weekend Pam!

Henry

[tired2]

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Hello Pam,
Glad to hear that Robert doesn't need a knee replacement. That is what I am afraid I might need in the future so I am being very care about how I exercise with it. I just walked in the door about 20 minutes ago. I didn't have access to a computer today as I was working out of the office. Today was one of those 19 hour days. I'm getting to old for this stuff and I can really feel it. Unfortunately as the holiday season gets closer it gets busier. You are doing great with your taper. Hang in there. I hate HMO's too and that is why I went with a PPO. I can't tell if I feel terrible because of the W/D or being on the go too much. I'm going to bed as I have had enough fun for one day. Have a wonderful weekend Pam!

Henry

Hi Henry,
I have the same worry with my left knee since I have had 4 surgery's one being reconstruction and when ever I workout it will hurt but I try to be careful. I only had one surgery on my right knee so far I'm not to worried about that one.Running doesn't help it very much either.Well I will taper 2.5mg tomorrow.

Wow 19hrs do you ever sleep...I think you are definitely on the go to much and you body needs a break my friend so it maybe contributing to some w/d symptoms.
Considering all those hours you are doing great.Hang in there.
Well get some rest you will feel better and I will talk to you tomorrow my friend,
Pam

[HenryNCBA]

Originally Posted by tired2

Hi Henry,
I have the same worry with my left knee since I have had 4 surgery's one being reconstruction and when ever I workout it will hurt but I try to be careful. I only had one surgery on my right knee so far I'm not to worried about that one.Running doesn't help it very much either.Well I will taper 2.5mg tomorrow.

Wow 19hrs do you ever sleep...I think you are definitely on the go to much and you body needs a break my friend so it maybe contributing to some w/d symptoms.
Considering all those hours you are doing great.Hang in there.
Well get some rest you will feel better and I will talk to you tomorrow my friend,
Pam

Hi Pam,
Thanks for the kind words of support. I really appreciate it! Just got home from you guessed it. Another day of running around. I can't wait to get back in the office tomorrow so I can some what unwind. Sounds funny as it is supposed to be the other way around but such is not the case for me unfortunately. Right now I am feeling terrible to say the least and I think you are right that it is just from pushing myself too hard. I am currently at .28 mg in the morning and .28 mg in the afternoon. I took an Ambien last night and it didn't even phase me. Hopefully I will be able to get a decent nights sleep tonight. You are doing absolutley great with your taper my friend! You are really a great inspiration for me to keep on going and don't stop and to move forward.
Hope you get a decent nights sleep too and that wired feeling goes away for you.

Henry

[HenryNCBA]

Good morning Robert!
Monday brings with it new hopes and outlook for a new week my friend I heard that you did not need a knee replacement and I am so very happy for you buddy! Good news about the bad news though is they can treat it so that is cool!
I am following your instructions and am still on the .28mg morning and .28mg afternoon both at the usual times. B/P, pulse and others vitals are same with no changes. Symptoms are upon waking mild depression and anxiety. Still having bouts of hot flashes with sweating but one thing I did notice that increased was the nervous tics but only when trying to sleep. Apparently I twitch quite a bit when sleep also as I have woken myself up and it was actually funny the other night as almost right at 03:00 I jolted awake as if I got hit with a sudden surge of electricity. My chest hurt and I thought maybe I was having a heart attack as I found it a little difficult to breath but did have any other symptoms of a H/A so I just said "OOOKAY then" and went back to sleep During the days I will feel surges of anxiety and a heaviness in my chest and other than the occasional hot flashes and sweating that comes with it that is about it.
Hope you are doing well my friend!

Henry

[tired2]

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Hi Pam,
Thanks for the kind words of support. I really appreciate it! Just got home from you guessed it. Another day of running around. I can't wait to get back in the office tomorrow so I can some what unwind. Sounds funny as it is supposed to be the other way around but such is not the case for me unfortunately. Right now I am feeling terrible to say the least and I think you are right that it is just from pushing myself too hard. I am currently at .28 mg in the morning and .28 mg in the afternoon. I took an Ambien last night and it didn't even phase me. Hopefully I will be able to get a decent nights sleep tonight. You are doing absolutley great with your taper my friend! You are really a great inspiration for me to keep on going and don't stop and to move forward.
Hope you get a decent nights sleep too and that wired feeling goes away for you.

Henry

Hi Henry,
Hope you are feeling better today and got some well needed sleep.I found that the Ambien really didn't do me any good during my sub taper.I don't know why but for some reason I thought you were at .28 mg total per day.Well you are doing great my friend.I actually went back and read some of my prior sub post which now I can totally see why I could never take a opiate again. I never want to go to that spot ever.
I must say I don't think I could have kept up with working as much as you do during my tapers.You are pushing right through my friend.
Talk later,
Pam

[HenryNCBA]

Good evening Robert,
Hope this communications finds you doing well my friend.
Just an update. It seems like I might be stabilizing at last on my current taper. This afternoon I was symptom free which felt great! I'll check in again in the morning. Be well my friend!

Henry

[HenryNCBA]

Originally Posted by tired2

Hi Henry,
Hope you are feeling better today and got some well needed sleep.I found that the Ambien really didn't do me any good during my sub taper.I don't know why but for some reason I thought you were at .28 mg total per day.Well you are doing great my friend.I actually went back and read some of my prior sub post which now I can totally see why I could never take a opiate again. I never want to go to that spot ever.
I must say I don't think I could have kept up with working as much as you do during my tapers.You are pushing right through my friend.
Talk later,
Pam

Hello Pam,
I have read some of your earlier posts also and all I can say is WOW! You have REALLY come a very long ways. I've been taking the Ambien daily to see if it helps with my sleep but you are right that during a sub taper I don't think it works well if at all. Tonight I will try it one last time and if it doesn't help be get a good nights rest then that is one less pill I will be taking which is fine with me. I am getting a little bit anxious to get through this next taper for some reason. Getting back to reading your past posts that just reading what you went through I can say for certain "no thanks" and your writings alone is enough to convince me that I want no more opiates in my life after this is over. You have supported me and cheered me on and following you in your footsteps to be clean is tough steps to follow but it is really great inspiration. You are showing me the pathway and with Robert's recommendations I can't go wrong. I called my doctors office today to see if they heard anything else with my insurance. You want to hear something funny? One of the office girls said she over heard the doctor talking about me and how I am doing and he said loudly across the room "tell Henry that he is doing so well what does he need me for?" and with that he laughed. I highly respect this doctor. He was the one that praised Robert when I showed him the data and what I was going through and his astounded look on his face told it all along with "well there are certainly bright people out there". Personally I think that my doctor is now a secret admirer of Robert
Have a nice evening Pam and talk to you tomorrow. I see you are getting ready for your next taper. Kudos and high five to you Pam!

Henry

[tired2]

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Hello Pam,
I have read some of your earlier posts also and all I can say is WOW! You have REALLY come a very long ways. I've been taking the Ambien daily to see if it helps with my sleep but you are right that during a sub taper I don't think it works well if at all. Tonight I will try it one last time and if it doesn't help be get a good nights rest then that is one less pill I will be taking which is fine with me. I am getting a little bit anxious to get through this next taper for some reason. Getting back to reading your past posts that just reading what you went through I can say for certain "no thanks" and your writings alone is enough to convince me that I want no more opiates in my life after this is over. You have supported me and cheered me on and following you in your footsteps to be clean is tough steps to follow but it is really great inspiration. You are showing me the pathway and with Robert's recommendations I can't go wrong. I called my doctors office today to see if they heard anything else with my insurance. You want to hear something funny? One of the office girls said she over heard the doctor talking about me and how I am doing and he said loudly across the room "tell Henry that he is doing so well what does he need me for?" and with that he laughed. I highly respect this doctor. He was the one that praised Robert when I showed him the data and what I was going through and his astounded look on his face told it all along with "well there are certainly bright people out there". Personally I think that my doctor is now a secret admirer of Robert
Have a nice evening Pam and talk to you tomorrow. I see you are getting ready for your next taper. Kudos and high five to you Pam!

Henry

Hi Henry,
Sorry for not saying much yesterday.I was really having a ************ day.That's to funny what your doctor said about what do you need him for.I know the day I walked in and told my doctor I was clean he was so happy and just about feel off his chair.Here the guy thought I was taking 6mg and he was getting ready to drop me to 4mg for another month.I actually ended up educating him on subs and he was going to use my information in his class that he was teaching.I only read a few parts on my sub taper and let me tell you I never realized how much I went through and then to taper every 3 days.I must have been crazy.So much in my life has changed just from that time of my life.Well now you can see why I want nothing to do with opiates as long as I live.
I hope you got some sleep last night and your taper is going smooth.You have been doing so well.
Talk to you soon my friend,
Pam

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by HenryNCBA

Good evening Robert,
Hope this communications finds you doing well my friend.
Just an update. It seems like I might be stabilizing at last on my current taper. This afternoon I was symptom free which felt great! I'll check in again in the morning. Be well my friend!

Henry

Sounds good Henry. I figured you would smooth out pretty quickly with some sleep especially. Let's give it today and see how you feel this evening.

I would like to see you with a few good days under your belt before dropping again. It's very critical at this point as you're so close to being done. Talk this evening my friend. God bless.

[HenryNCBA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Sounds good Henry. I figured you would smooth out pretty quickly with some sleep especially. Let's give it today and see how you feel this evening.

I would like to see you with a few good days under your belt before dropping again. It's very critical at this point as you're so close to being done. Talk this evening my friend. God bless.

Good evening Robert,
Just checking in. Just finished working out and feel pretty good. About the only symptoms I still have is depression when I wake up with some anxiety but not much. Once I start moving then I feel better. Neck still feels stiff from time to time and now very seldom I get the hot flashes and sweating with it. That is down to about twice a day at most. Other than that I seem to be okay. Sometimes some things will hit unexpectedly but it is coming father and father between.
I'll check in again in the morning. I am not taking Ambien anymore as the other night it had me doing some strange things. I have heard that about Ambien with other folks also that it can cause people to do some very weird things. I do mean weird too. Hopefully I will be able to get a decent nights sleep but as you said sleep is probably the very last thing to stabilize even after coming clean so I kind of expect it.
Hope you are doing well my friend.

Henry