[lakers32]

This is the first time I've entered into any type of online forum. Please let me know if I am doing anything outside of the norm (ie. long post). This post alone might tell you how badly I am looking for information. I was eight years sober until march 2007 when I started taking vicodin. After a few months, I knew where I was headed. I decided to see a pshychiatrist to see how to deal with the withdrawl ont the addiction. I knew that I was over it because I had been there so many times years ago. Consequently, I have been on 12 MGs of Suboxen for the past 14 months. Last week, Thursday, I ran out and decided I had enough with them and they had served their purpose. Not so easy!

Satuday rolled around I started to feel very ill. From there, it escalated dramatically and only then did I realize that it was Suboxen withdrawl. I explicitly recall my doctor saying there was no withdrawl. By Tuesday morning, I was so miserable and sick that I called my doctor who said it was psychosomatic. Because I knew I needed more to feel better, I avoided telling him how misinformed he was. I felt like a crack addict needing my suboxen. I started taking them again on Tuesday morning and felt better instanatly. Now, two days later, I feel bad again but not like I did. Last Thursday, I also stopped Lexapro cold turkey and didn't even think about withdrawls until tonight. The lexapro doesnt concern me because it is extremely mild compared to Suboxen. Question; is there any way to taper off Suboxen without suffering so miserably. And, how long does it take to start feeling better again. I was so miserable that I took a handful of klonopin to try to reduce the anxiety. It didn't help. I can't fall asleep either. I understnad that Klonodine can be used to help. Any feedback would be appreciated. The suboxone has been extremely effective, so I am wondering if I keep taking it. It does kill your appetite and sex drive.

[money_chick]

Theres a well informed man on this forum that should respond soon. I'm useless, but check back, ok?

[Robert_325]

I replied to your earlier post on the "Latest Drug Related News" forum. Like I told you on the other forum ... you need to do a slow taper considering the amount of suboxone you are taking and the amount of time you have been on it. This taper will likely last four months if you don't want to have W/D symptoms. Doing it fast is unnecessary and not in your best interest. You don't need to stop abruptly from the dose you are on. You will definitely have W/D symptoms doing that. No way getting around it. Dr is wrong if they say otherwise. Some drs who prescribe suboxone don't know as much about it as they should. But this can be done without incident if it's done properly with a slow taper. I will help you if you want me to. But we will have to communicate regularly as you progress through the tapering process. Can't tell you in advance exactly what you need to be taking three weeks from now. It depends how you are doing as you go along. Just let me know if you want my help. Good luck.

[lakers32]

Thanks for the response. Yesterday, I asked around to find out who the best addiction MD in Los Angeles is so that I can do this with a sound plan. I was referred to a Dr. Park here in Los Angeles who is supposed to be extremely knowlegable. Every pshychiatrist I have ever seen has been so quick to put me on medication. The doctor who prescribed me Suboxen last year, also subscribed Klonopin and Paxil at the same time. Subscribing Klonopin to a drug addict strikes me as very odd. Nonetheless, I tursted him and went with his suggestion, ableit for a very brief period. The Paxil made an otherwise genarally happy person extremely depressed.

At this point, I am only taking the Suboxen and am looking for Dr. Park to give me a structured plan. When I spoke briefly to him on the phone yesteday, he wasn't very forthcoming with information and I got an uneasy feeling from him.

It's strange...since I stared taking the Suboxen again on Tuesday after being off for four days, I can't sleep longer than 1 hour increments without waking up for an hour. I have also felt very listless and genrally pretty bad. A few times per day, I go through a major sweating period. It makes no sense because I am back on Suboxen again.

I can't figure out if I should continue to take this drug or taper off and be done with it. The doctor sounded a bit surprised whehn I mentioned how long I have been taking the drug.

It sounds like if you taper off as you suggested, you can get through the w/d without too much difficulty. If I had to feel that bad again, I would stay on the Suboxen. It was that intolerable for me. With two very small children and a very demanding job, I can't spend the day in bed waiting to feel better. I will see what the doctor suggests next week and go to him with an open mind.

I apreciate the response. I stopped going to AA meeting years ago, and they are actually extremely effective for this very reason...people that understand you.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by lakers32

Thanks for the response. Yesterday, I asked around to find out who the best addiction MD in Los Angeles is so that I can do this with a sound plan. I was referred to a Dr. Park here in Los Angeles who is supposed to be extremely knowlegable. Every pshychiatrist I have ever seen has been so quick to put me on medication. The doctor who prescribed me Suboxen last year, also subscribed Klonopin and Paxil at the same time. Subscribing Klonopin to a drug addict strikes me as very odd. Nonetheless, I tursted him and went with his suggestion, ableit for a very brief period. The Paxil made an otherwise genarally happy person extremely depressed.

At this point, I am only taking the Suboxen and am looking for Dr. Park to give me a structured plan. When I spoke briefly to him on the phone yesteday, he wasn't very forthcoming with information and I got an uneasy feeling from him.

It's strange...since I stared taking the Suboxen again on Tuesday after being off for four days, I can't sleep longer than 1 hour increments without waking up for an hour. I have also felt very listless and genrally pretty bad. A few times per day, I go through a major sweating period. It makes no sense because I am back on Suboxen again.

I can't figure out if I should continue to take this drug or taper off and be done with it. The doctor sounded a bit surprised whehn I mentioned how long I have been taking the drug.

It sounds like if you taper off as you suggested, you can get through the w/d without too much difficulty. If I had to feel that bad again, I would stay on the Suboxen. It was that intolerable for me. With two very small children and a very demanding job, I can't spend the day in bed waiting to feel better. I will see what the doctor suggests next week and go to him with an open mind.

I apreciate the response. I stopped going to AA meeting years ago, and they are actually extremely effective for this very reason...people that understand you.

I wouldn't attempt to second guess your dr as far as either the klonopin or paxil go as that would be inappropriate. This Dr Park was likely not offering a lot of info over the phone as drs earn a living by seeing patients in person rather than with phone conversations. So his action doesn't really surprise me. I wouldn't be concerned about that. I would see him like you said. But unless you have some underlying health condition, if all you want to do is get off the suboxone, then tapering off it doesn't really require spending a lot of money at the dr. You need to make sure you have enough medication to get you through this tapering process and will need a dr to prescribe the suboxone though. I would be encouraged that he seemed surprised with the length of time you've been on the suboxone. I would see what he has to say regarding the tapering process and move forward from there. He might be totally receptive to tapering and be an asset for you. Who knows!! Try to remain positive and hopeful.

Suboxone is generally used for detox purposes, being to get off the opiates and then return to a traditional lifestyle. It is used as a maintenance medication for some however. Some people with histories of long-term abuse or repeated relapse use it for extended periods of time and find it helpful in allowing for the healing of brain receptors. I abused opiates for decades though and did not find it necessary to use buprenorphine longer than six weeks. And I had previously experienced PAWS and similar problems during and following opiate detox. So we are all quite different. There is no "stock" answer for exactly how long everyone needs to be on suboxone.

Stopping the use of suboxone does not require a lot of suffering like the horror stories you read about. If one attempts to abruptly stop it, or taper too quickly, then they are in for a rough time most likely if they have used suboxone for an extended period of time. But I have seen enough people stop using it successfully that I am convinced it simply needs to be done properly to not have problems during the tapering period. You are probably looking at a detox that will last four months or so if you are like most. Some of us can do it a little quicker or it may take a little longer. We just have to see how we do once we get started. You need to get stabilized with the dose you are currently taking and maintain that dose for a short time before you begin to start reducing your dose. It's important to not be having problems with it when we begin the taper. There will be no need to have to spend the days in bed while doing this. That is why we use suboxone in the first place ... being so that we don't have to go through extreme W/Ds. Makes no sense to eliminate opiate W/Ds and then have to experience suboxone W/Ds. Just stay in touch and let us know how it goes when you see Dr Park next week. Good luck.

[lakers32]

I appreciate your insight once again. Another relatively sleepless night, and I am still on Suboxone. I don't understand why I feel so poorly. I wonder if it's becuase I took so many Klonopin last weekend to try to combat the WD from Suboxen. Enough complaining...nobody dies from lack of sleep. I will see the Dr. next week and keep you posted. My goal is to feel stabalized and not so up and down during the course of a day. My mood is largely dependent on how I feel physically, and I often feel lusy during the course of a day. Until 30 days ago, I worked out 5 days per week for the last 20 years. I can't get myself to do anything because of how I feel. It's not depression but general malaise. I will keep you posted. There are others with real problems out there. It's just frustrating when you can't figure ourt what's going on with yourself. One day, at for the most of the day, I can feel good, and the next day feel like I can't physically move. I will stay in touch over the next few days. I see that you help lots of people and I think it's very cool of you. My mom is a psychologist, and she is the same way. She just wants to make people feel better. It is not about the money at all. In fact, if her patients don't have money, she will charge them virutally nothing. There aren't a lot of selfless people out there.

[Robert_325]

Just a suggestion that might help during the interim of starting and completing this suboxone taper ... you mentioned that in the past you have worked out regularly. Physical activity is a key ingredient for endorphine production. That is why it makes us feel so good. It's our body's natural way of making us feel better. If you have suddendly stopped that physical activity that is probably a big factor in the way you are feeling. I know it's tough to make ourselves start a rigorous workout schedule when we don't feel like it, but having worked out for a long time anyway I'm sure you realize what you are doing to yourself. I would definitely pick it back up!

[lakers32]

Robert -

I have been feeling awful since I restarted taking the Suboxen last week Tuesday. I go through these terrible bouts of sweating and extreme nausea. It doesn't make sense because I am back taking 10mgs per day. I am wondering if it's coincidental and a flu bug or that I stopped for four days and ramped up day 1. I read your suggestion about tapering off, and will discuss it with the DR. on Thursday.

I read other posts and see nothing but horror stories with respect to stopping. I guess the people that have had success feel well enough that they don't have to write about how much they suffer. I understand that there might be some discomfort for a period of time, but the cold turkey method was scary. I was a crack attack and alcoholic for a number of years, and when I stopped the crack, the physical withdrawl was minimal. It was the pshychological part that was so difficult. Obviously the drugs work diffrently on your nervous system and the brain's receptors.

I have no desire to be on Suboxen anymore, but just can not deal with the hell of stopping. Absent a family and a job I can't get away from, it would be a lot easier to deal with the Suboxone. I feel like I am in prison with this drug. I understand Suboxone is supposed to curb cravings, and it does for me, but what's the difference if I am taking Vicodin or Suboxone. At least with Vicodin, you feel better. I know the answer but the phsyical dependence to Suboxone seems very counter-intuitive to me. For me, it is very effective at killling the cravings, but the side effects and WD are equally as bad. There are no free lunches. If there was a mircale drug out there, then relapsing wouldn't be as scary. I guess it's natures way of trying to protect us.

I really look forward to slowly tappering and being done with this. In some way, I guess I am looking for some reassurance that everything will be okay. If we take good advice and stick to it, we will be okay. It's just knowing where to find that advice. I have never been to a shrink that has suggest anything but taking medication. My wife grew up in Israel and it's a totally different perspective there. She's more a believer of bahvioral processess as opposed to drugs. If she sufferred from addiction or even depression, I suspect she might have a different outlook. Talk to you soon!

[lakers32]

I met with the Dr. yesterday and was extremely dissappointed. $450 and an hour later, I felt like I accomlpished nothing. I spent the hour giving him my history and the session was over. He asked me to come back the next day. I felt like it was all about the money. The problem is that I need someone to write a prescritption for the Suboxne because I can't go through the same withdrawls again. I feel like it's the same kind of relationship you would have with with your drug dealer. For the 30 seconds that we spoke about the Suboxen, he reccommended to stay on it for now. How do I find someone that I can trust that actually will try to help. It is so frustrating!

I am going through the same emotions that I had when I was using many years ago. I worked so hard to get here, and I now I am dependent on someone to give me drugs. I have to go out and find the right Dr. who will work with me to figure this out. I suffer from terrible anxiety, and I have to figure out a way to reduce it. The Dr. wants to talk to me about Buspar. Then I come home and my wife, who is anti prescription drugs says that all of this would go away if I attend meetings. I haven't been in this headspace in many years. I want off the Suboxen and going to do whatever is neccessary to get there. That said, I can only taper off this drug but need help. I understand that other people have much worse issues but when you have anxiety, you become self-obssessed to figure out to make yourself feel okay. I will meet with this Dr. again only because I can't run out of the Suboxen.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by lakers32

I met with the Dr. yesterday and was extremely dissappointed. $450 and an hour later, I felt like I accomlpished nothing. I spent the hour giving him my history and the session was over. He asked me to come back the next day. I felt like it was all about the money. The problem is that I need someone to write a prescritption for the Suboxne because I can't go through the same withdrawls again. I feel like it's the same kind of relationship you would have with with your drug dealer. For the 30 seconds that we spoke about the Suboxen, he reccommended to stay on it for now. How do I find someone that I can trust that actually will try to help. It is so frustrating!

I am going through the same emotions that I had when I was using many years ago. I worked so hard to get here, and I now I am dependent on someone to give me drugs. I have to go out and find the right Dr. who will work with me to figure this out. I suffer from terrible anxiety, and I have to figure out a way to reduce it. The Dr. wants to talk to me about Buspar. Then I come home and my wife, who is anti prescription drugs says that all of this would go away if I attend meetings. I haven't been in this headspace in many years. I want off the Suboxen and going to do whatever is neccessary to get there. That said, I can only taper off this drug but need help. I understand that other people have much worse issues but when you have anxiety, you become self-obssessed to figure out to make yourself feel okay. I will meet with this Dr. again only because I can't run out of the Suboxen.

What a crock!!! Some of these drs really P.... me off. They are only interested in the money. You are right. Some are good however and you need a different dr. My dr charged me a regular office call charge when we met. It was $75 or maybe $100 or so, but that was it. My insurance paid for it less my $20 co-pay. The sub was prescribed and it was expensive, but not like some of the horror stories I hear like yours. $450 an hour is institutionalized thievery. I would be livid.

I would go to www.suboxone.com. It the web site for The National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine Treatment. You can enter your zip code and they will provide a list of all the drs in your area certified to prescribe suboxone along with all the pharmacies that carry it. I would call around until I located a dr that charged a normal rate for their services and make an appointment. I hope you have enough meds to hold you over so you don't even have to go back to see this bandit. Hope this route helps you.

I can give you suggestions to assist you with the taper if you want me to, but you will still need the meds and a local dr is going to be a big benefit to you obviously. Let me know how it goes when you check out the web site. Good luck.

[janet941]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

What a crock!!! Some of these drs really P.... me off. They are only interested in the money. You are right. Some are good however and you need a different dr. My dr charged me a regular office call charge when we met. It was $75 or maybe $100 or so, but that was it. My insurance paid for it less my $20 co-pay. The sub was prescribed and it was expensive, but not like some of the horror stories I hear like yours. $450 an hour is institutionalized thievery.

I have been on Sub twice now, the first time when it was not as widely used. I had an experience just like this. In the first post I think Klonodine was mentioned. I have also been prescribed this while detoxing. If memory serves it is used to reduce heart rate as your rate goes up when coming off of opiates. I was lucky enough on my second go around with Suboxone to find a doctor that charged me with a standard office visit. I'm not sure if this still applies but when I was researching Suboxone a couple of years ago, there were restrictions upon doctors as to how many Sub patients they could treat at any given time. Does that still hold true? Also would a request for klonodine when I do begin my Sub detox be recommended? You are so right about some of these doctors. They are no better than dealers. They know they have you over a barrel and damn well take advantage of it. I wish you all the luck in finding one that doesn't, they do exist, just far and few between.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by janet941

I have been on Sub twice now, the first time when it was not as widely used. I had an experience just like this. In the first post I think Klonodine was mentioned. I have also been prescribed this while detoxing. If memory serves it is used to reduce heart rate as your rate goes up when coming off of opiates. I was lucky enough on my second go around with Suboxone to find a doctor that charged me with a standard office visit. I'm not sure if this still applies but when I was researching Suboxone a couple of years ago, there were restrictions upon doctors as to how many Sub patients they could treat at any given time. Does that still hold true? Also would a request for klonodine when I do begin my Sub detox be recommended? You are so right about some of these doctors. They are no better than dealers. They know they have you over a barrel and damn well take advantage of it. I wish you all the luck in finding one that doesn't, they do exist, just far and few between.

Clonidine is a blood pressure medication used to help lessen detox symptoms, it's been used for a long time unlike suboxone. Drs could previously have only 30 subuxone patients at once, now it's 100. You don't likely need Clonidine while tapering off Suboxone. It might help, we are all dofferent. Good drs are out there. Of course so are the others. We just have to shop a little.

[SusannahB]

I felt the same way u are feeling after 2 weeks of taking suboxone, i asked the doc about it and he asked me if i ever had the flu, i hadnt. and he said that it sounded like i had the flu, and that it was a side effect on taking the suboxone. I thought it was anxiety at first, with long lasting painc attacks. I was so sick i cut my dose in half (6mg) and i felt better the next day. So maybe ur having side effects or since u stopped for a few days and then started back on 10 mg-maybe thats to much??

[leowd]

I don't have time to reply now, but will later.

I quit Suboxone on 5/31--cold turkey, and Lexapro 6/5--cold turkey...no fun at all, but today is 6/23 and I'm on a definite road to normalacy.

More later...

Elizabeth