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  1. #1
    clevername is offline Member
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    Somehow my thread is gone. anyhow I have 2mg subs left, felt high on 1mg on Thurs so I think I could do .25mg 4x and .125 8x or something. Let me know. Thanks for the help guys I'm sorry if my old thread got deleted cause I did something naughty or if it was just a glitch. I hope it was a glitch cause I tried not to say anything bad. Let me know if you want me to repost any of my dosing information or general rambling.

  2. #2
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    clever....
    i read your thread earlier. i don't know where it went.
    what i do remember is about 4 or 5 people said very emphatically......
    DO NOT SNORT SUBS!!!

  3. #3
    clevername is offline Member
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    hah don't worry i won't. when ur talking .25mg or .125mg out of a 8mg octagon, the whole thing could get lost in a booger anyhow if you snorted it anyhow under the tongue for me, no worries
    Last edited by clevername; 06-02-2012 at 03:21 AM. Reason: messed up dose

  4. #4
    clevername is offline Member
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    OK so I got into bed at 11pm or so last night and couldn't sleep at all (kept posting after then so duh). By the time it was 3am or so I couldn't believe how much worse I felt when lying in bed waiting to sleep than when just sitting at the computer because all my mind was saying was "you can't do this for a month, you'll never sleep, you'll go crazy" and I felt like all my physical symptoms were amplified a ton by not sleeping. So I cracked and took 1mg alprazolam, which is a large amount, and I was out like a baby within an hour, and slept from 4am to 10am!! Woke up feeling _so much_ better, which is prolly slightly thanks to the sleep and mostly due to the alprazolam still in my system.

    Anyhow, if benzos alleviate the symptoms this well, I feel like I probably shouldn't feel bad taking them during sub wd since I've never had a problem kicking benzos (opiates - result in years of numbing life-destroying behavior - benzos - result in a sweaty, panicky weekend and then pretty fine.) I feel like this is much more treating symptoms rather than replacing one drug with another. I've used benzos when kicking before and they didn't do much for me so I'm hoping that by actually _wanting_ to be clean and focusing on symptoms I'm doing things in a much more positive manner and that's why they're working.

    I know the Thomas recipe includes benzos but sub wd is so much longer term that you will definitely build up _some_ kind of physical dependence on benzos during it, so am I just kidding myself that it's kosher to take benzos for symptoms of sub wd? Everyone complains about the sleepless nights and I can't deal with that. (and I'd much rather kick a tiny benzo habit than a years-long sub habit)
    Last edited by clevername; 06-02-2012 at 10:21 AM. Reason: added actual question

  5. #5
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    i used something to help me sleep, after i stopped using subs. you are still on a small dose is that correct.?

    you should save the benzos for when YOU REALLY NEED THEM TO GET SOME SLEEP. and only take if you need it. not all the time. or yes, you may get in trouble with them. be careful, and stop freaking yourself out about how long sb wd is. we are all different. you might breeze thru with the small amount of subs you have been on.
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  6. #6
    clevername is offline Member
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    I'm not on any subs for the last 53 hours (but who's counting ). I decided that since it was the weekend I could just try to sweat out as much as possible and see how it goes. I have a tiny amount left but I want to make sure my tolerance is as low as possible if I have to use any, so I figure I can just have a crawling-up-the-walls weekend and on monday I'll either feel like I need to stop or feel like I need a sick day from work. If I feel like I need to stop I'll start tapering again, if I just feel like I need a sick day, I'll take one. And so on and so forth. But to answer your question no I am cold turkey and it is not the most fun thing even though they say real sub wds dont start for days I'm just taking it one day at a time and so far it's doable.

    And also thanks so much for your reassuring words, you have no idea how much it means to me to hear that. I've read your story too and have tremendous respect for you.
    Last edited by clevername; 06-02-2012 at 10:50 AM.

  7. #7
    clevername is offline Member
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    you know, I don't feel _that_ much worse today than I did 24 hours ago. wearing an underarmor wicking shirt with a light fan blowing on me really helps cause it's the only way to keep semi-dry from these wicked cold sweats.

    I really want to be off this stuff. I can't believe I managed to get into a computer science phd program while all doped out of my skull, I bet I'll be smarter once I'm off these meds. I could barely remember what I had for lunch the day before, how did I learn all these algorithms?

    I'm looking forward to how bright I'll feel! I hope I can see my way through this.

  8. #8
    clevername is offline Member
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    Also I'm sorry for posting so much but Robert if you could help me figure out what to do I'd appreciate it. Like I said about 3 yrs total opiate abuse with the last 2 yrs being suboxone only, last two years were steady climb from 1-2mg a day to 4-5mg a day with occasionally a bit more. In the last ~5 weeks I tapered down from 4-5mg to to 1mg pretty fast but bearable since I exercised 1-2 times per day and jumped off a couple days ago after going off subs for a couple days and using hydros to see if that would help lower my sub tolerance, and then getting one final dose of 1mg sub which felt really good so I know that's way too much.

    I only have 2mg sub left and don't want to find more, I jumped off w/ last dose 1mg thurs morning and it's now 56 hrs or so and I'm feeling bearable. I read about other ppl really going thru a lot of pain jumping off at 1mg esp. after such a quickish taper. So I'm thinking of toughing it out as long as I can and then doing 4x .25mg then 8x .125mg w/ maybe a day between the last 4 .125mg doses. So certainly won't be "comfortable" but I will hopefully be able to go to work and sleep a little. Does this sound reasonable or do you think I can just CT it? Or do I need to find more sub? I guess we'll only know when/if I re-induct. Either way I'm going to try to go as long as I can stand CT before getting back on. Thanks so much for your help!

    ps. I have one "big" quarter of an octagon 8mg sub left, so maybe more like 2.5mg. What's the best way to get it into such tiny doses since it's not a film that can be cut into triangles? I was thinking I'd just crush it into 16 or 20 little piles and try to eyeball them and say those are .125mg.... and be careful not to sneeze
    Last edited by clevername; 06-02-2012 at 01:33 PM.

  9. #9
    MP5
    MP5 is offline Member
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    Hi clevername, Yes, to get micro doses, take that quarter of an 8mg sub and crush it up, make four equal piles, that will be .5mg each. You can then split those piles in half, and again if you'd like. You can store the doses in a small "bindle". Label the dose amount and put them in a safe place.

    As for snorting subs, Besides the obvious reasons for not doing that, here is another one...You are actually getting less in your system that way. Subs are taken sublingually because the bioavailability of buprenorphine depends on ph. At best subs have a bioavailability of about 40%(taken sublingually). Your stomach and nasal passage have a higher ph than your mouth, therefore the bioavailability is much lower. So it is counterproductive to snort them, as much less is actually getting in your system. On that note, it is good not to eat or drink(especially things like coffee) for 20 minutes or so before taking subs to make sure your body can use as much as possible, and more importantly, to make sure that you are consistently getting the same amount.

    I am sure Robert will stop in and give you advice on how to use your subs the best.

    Mike
    Last edited by MP5; 06-02-2012 at 02:35 PM.

  10. #10
    clevername is offline Member
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    Ha well that's a blessing in disguise then I have no plans to snort them ever again, but maybe that means I actually have less in my system than my amounts would suggest. Bright side hah. Also I just downloaded diablo3 I haven't played video games in a long time cause I think they're a waste of time but they sure do give me something to think about other than nasty feelings. Good fun!

  11. #11
    thalia45 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevername View Post
    Ha well that's a blessing in disguise then I have no plans to snort them ever again, but maybe that means I actually have less in my system than my amounts would suggest. Bright side hah. Also I just downloaded diablo3 I haven't played video games in a long time cause I think they're a waste of time but they sure do give me something to think about other than nasty feelings. Good fun!
    Hi clevername, I know nothing of "subs' but I just want you to know that among the 100s 1000s? of watchers out there, we are all routing for you or gaining information. Thank you for posting, Thalia.

  12. #12
    thalia45 is offline Member
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    I also might add that my DOC is alcohol (which I quit a long time ago-ironically I "mod" on another site) but this pill thing set me on my ear - I think is is the happy dimension LOL, which of course goes away very quickly , so I am listening to you and others with experience. Thanks so much for taking the time to share it.

  13. #13
    clevername is offline Member
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    thank you for your support I really want to get better I just keep telling myself I don't know why I'm sick and to suck it up

  14. #14
    clevername is offline Member
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    ok one big difference between flu and wds is that if you have a flu and you go to the gym you might pass out but if you have wds once you get over the 10min or so hump on the exercise bike you feel incredible. I just did 30+ minutes on the bike at the gym and feel pretty amazing. Started raining like crazy on the walk back with me in my tshirt but aint that just poetic. Anyhow its amazing how much exercise has helped me these last 5+ weeks. I've heard long distance runners can get crosstolerant to the effect of a 50mg morphine habit. Whaddaya know that's only 6 times less than what I used to take
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  15. #15
    clevername is offline Member
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    ok so 81 hrs or so since my last sub and I feel fairly alive. def wouldn't been able to sleep without the benzo but during the day I feel ok I'm just pretending I have the flu, feel really weak and uncomfortable and sweats/chills. Hot shower helps. I'm also playing the bejeebers out of some videogames which is really working to keep my mind occupied. Gonna see if I can go to the gym in the next couple hours.

    I'm still not sure I could go to work like this tomorrow, feel weak like a kitten. I don't mind taking a couple "sick days" (hah we've all done that), but if this is going to be long term I don't want to use up my time right now. I'd appreciate it if someone could look at my taper plan and tell me if they think it makes sense or if I should just tough it out or what. I've been ct for a few days now and feel bearable so maybe I don't need to re-sub-myself and start tapering again, but who knows, I don't want to feel like this or worse for a month.

  16. #16
    clevername is offline Member
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    OK unless I hear otherwise I'm gonna probably get back on the subs tomorrow or the next day, do in .125mg increments 1.5hrs apart to get as low as possible. I just feel bad and don't think I could be very productive at work and don't want that to happen for a month haha.

    hopefully I'll only need a little bit cause I have minimal suboxone Robert I know you're busy (and are amazing) but if you could give me some feedback that would be great. I read your suboxone post and it makes sense I'm just gonna try with a wicked low dose and hope for the best so I should be able to do this myself. I started another thread earlier and you hopped on it and made me feel a lot better, but that thread is disappeared into the aether lol. Thanks so much everybody!
    Last edited by ddcmod; 06-04-2012 at 12:49 AM.

  17. #17
    MetalDuckMFC is offline Senior Member
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    I am not Robert, but I am very knowledgable about opiates, including Subs, and am on them myself. Reading through your threads, I must urge you NOT to go back on Subs. You're so close to the finish line, it would undoubtedly be counter-productive. You say that you're able to ride an exercise bike for 30+ minutes, and that is impressive for anybody suffering the effects of opiate detox. If you can get into that same mind-set at work, then you WILL be successful. Clearly, you are your own worst enemy right now. You know the answer, man. Do NOT use more Subs. Your mind is playing tricks on you. You don't need Suboxone; you need a support system to help you deal with the mental aspect if all this. I strongly suggest NA.

    I don't rant to ramble, and waste your time, but you don't need Suboxone. You need the right mind-set, and a proper support system. I can tell that you want this, and that's great. But do you want it more than absolutely anything? Would you do anything to succeed at this? If you can answer yes to those questions, then you should honestly contemplate NA/AA. at least give it a shot. Google a meeting, and attend one. Get the feel for it. You won't be disappointed. I was very skeptical at first, too. In fact, I got clean and stayed clean for 6 months, relapsed for a week, stayed clean for 5 months, then relapsed again. All in the last 15 months. I am not on Suboxone, and attending 4-5 meetings a week. I realized that I needed help. Getting clean wasn't the issue for me, clearly. It was STAYING that way.

    So, please, just look into it. I wish the you the best of luck, and I am sure Robert will be by soon to chime in. God bless.

    -Bobby

  18. #18
    MetalDuckMFC is offline Senior Member
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    I mean I AM on Suboxone. Just realized that I said I wasn't in my post. I meant "I am NOW on Suboxone". I am on my iPhone, so I apologize for the typos.

    -Bobby

  19. #19
    Anonymous Guest

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    clever, you should maybe carry on mate. you will be turning the corner soon and gettin over this stuff. i notice you were on a tiny dose when you jumped.... suck it up buttercup, as they say, and get thru this...

    metal... back on subs mate. how long for and what dose...?
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  20. #20
    MetalDuckMFC is offline Senior Member
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    I believe you are mistaken, cheeky. This my first go around. You remember what I went through, right? Kicked my habit cold turkey at the begging of last year, maintained for 6 months, then slipped up and took my morphine script for my back. Then I got clean for 5 more months, but I didn't so what I needed to do, so I failed again. I got on Subs 2 months ago, and I am at 4mg. I was inducted at a high dose, of course. And I knew better, but I my doctor is strict, and I figured I could use the extra time getting my shot straight.

    So, this time around (3rd time's the charm ), I did Suboxone, and started attending NA newtons. Thank you for asking, though. How are you?

    clevername, anybody here who knows what they are talking about will tell you nor to go back on it, with your story.

    All you need is a good attitude, and some outside help. Please, PLEASE just attend one 45 minute meeting BEFORE you decide. Take tomorrow off, and attend a meeting tomorrow. You don't have to talk to anybody, just listen. You will be surprise. Then, if you still feel like you should do it, go for it. But you most likely won't. You'll be given the tools, and the discipline to stay clean for good. You will meet amazing people who genuinely care. And it IS anonymous. You don't have to tell them your name, or anything.

    So, what do you think? Will you just take my advice and go to one meeting with an open mind? Do it for yourself.

    -Bobb

  21. #21
    Anonymous Guest

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    sorry bobby, let me rephrase that.... metal, back on the 'drugs' again. i meant to say...

    hope that you can get it right this time... are you thinkin of tapering? or just happy to sit and let your doctor run the show... ? you said you inducted high, and knew you shouldnt... oh no.... why did you do that..? with all you have learnt you still let a doctor tell you how much to take... its a worry youngfulla.... i really do hope you get it sooner or later, you have a lot to offer this life. are you going to do the 25% taper.? where are you at with that... you have a long history on here, and currently only come out occasionally.

    CLEVERNAME... you should carry on and break thru, you are so close. there is a bit of effort required to get and stay off subs, but you are soooo close... its not worth it to carry on, you only have a little bit anyway... suck it up mate and be free...
    Last edited by Anonymous; 06-04-2012 at 06:55 AM.

  22. #22
    MetalDuckMFC is offline Senior Member
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    Well, cheeky, there were a few reasons I inducted higher than I needed to. The biggest being my aunt and uncle, who are helping me pay for it. They are both RN's, and did their own research on Suboxone treatments, and they believe that I should stay on it longer than I had planned.

    But, I am tapering. No worry there. Not following the 25% taper plan to the T, but I've only been on it 2 months, and have gotten from 12 to 4 milligrams a day completely on my own, so not too shabby.
    And I am sorry for not posting often. I am SO busy now that I am rarely on the computer. I do read the site every day, from my phone, but it is so difficult to post from it, that I never do. So, I am sorry for that, but my life has gotten VERY full. I am working again, helping to raise my 11 month old nephew, and spending time with real friends.

    Sorry to hijack your thread, clevername. I hope you made the correct choice, and DIDN'T take the Suboxone. Pop in some time, and let us know.

  23. #23
    clevername is offline Member
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    ok well I haven't taken any yet. took the day off work today cause I'm feeling like I got hit by a truck (smallish truck lol). I def don't want to get back on them but I don't want to be messed up for a month. Anyhow I think there may be some misunderstanding - I wasn't on _that_ tiny of a dose when I jumped. I was on 1mg/day after crash-tapering down from 4-5mg day in 4-5 weeks (and had been on 1-4mg of subs for over _2 years_). As far as I can tell from other ppls experiences on this forum that is a pretty high spot to be jumping off from. Just because I'm thinking of getting back on at .25mg or whatever doesn't mean that's where I got off.

    I'm definitely listening to advice and my feeling too is I shouldn't be taking any more because I just want to be FREE of this garbage. But I came down from a mid-high dose quite quickly and have been pretty much white-knuckling it the last 5 weeks and I feel quite weak. But thanks for everyones advice and I definitely am inclined to not take any - I also am feeling pretty much no cravings (believe it or not). I just want to do what's going to be the best for my sanity and career the next month or so. I've seen Robert offer advice to ppl who jumped off at 1mg after 4mg maintenance and told them they suffered for a month of needless pain and they could have just tapered down to .25mg or below and been much more comfortable, so that's why I'm considering getting back on. But I won't do anything until I hear from someone definitively

    Thanks so much for your advice and support guys, it means the world to me!

    ps. cheeky, I definitely have been leaning towards what you're saying. I mean simple-minded me says "if you don't want to be on drugs, just stop taking the damn things", so I would really rather stay off. The only reason I'm considering getting back on is that some posts I've read on this forum have made me think that tapering down to nothing could be a much smoother ride - I do kinda feel like I'm sunburned all over lol
    Last edited by clevername; 06-04-2012 at 01:25 PM.

  24. #24
    clevername is offline Member
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    Metal - thanks for your good advice and encouraging words, I think you're right that I can make it at work (sweating a lot lol) if I just summon some strength and try and concentrate on not being a big whiny wuss and pretend I have mono or something. I don't think I'm going to go to NA quite yet but I am definitely keeping an open mind and have read hundreds of posts on this forum that have helped a lot (I know it's not the same thing but... baby steps).

    Also the straw that broke the camel's back, for this whole decision to kick this garbage to the curb, was the fact that I went to a suboxone clinic place and was so disgusted with myself that I just walked out, so maybe sometimes reluctance to seek certain kinds of help is a good thing?? Who knows but I think I can be honest with myself and when I start to crave I will re-evaluate but I haven't been craving so far since I just associate those orange crumbly tablets with sickness and despair right now.

  25. #25
    clevername is offline Member
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    ok triple-post awesome haha but I have one question:

    The cold sweats, especially when sleeping, have been the worst part of this for me. I hate waking up every 3 hours, even with sleeping pills, because I feel like I've wet the bed and I have to switch blankets around. Is there any trick for mitigating the sweating? I'm thinking beta-blockers might help as they're used to control sweating and shakiness in musicians with stage fright sometimes - no kidding. Maybe I could get my doc to write me a scrip or grab some from a family member, they're not a controlled substance or addicitive. Has anyone any ideas how to curb the sweating?

    UPDATE: I thought I was a smarty pants for thinking propanolol during wd's was a great new idea for curbing sweating, but some cursory googling reveals that people have been doing that for ages and it works. Maybe I'll see if I can try that as I'm already the sweatiest person ever and the wd's have made it just wretched.
    Last edited by clevername; 06-04-2012 at 01:49 PM.

  26. #26
    ClassiqueMom is offline Senior Member
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    hi clevername.. clevername you got there

    as annoying as the sweating must be..
    (and believe me! i've had my share of 'hot flashes' over the years.. honestly! often to the point of tears!)

    but there has been advise here in the past (from who, i don't recall, sorry!)
    that getting in a sauna helps w/wd ..

    and i would think sweating is the same principle..
    it is your body's way of getting rid of the toxins (from the suboxone and other things)

    that could be! a good thing!

    thought i'd throw that line of thinking out there for you!

    wishing you all the best!
    Classique MoM

  27. #27
    clevername is offline Member
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    thanks for the suggestion. unfortunately my gym doesnt have a sauna but the shower helps. still I'm lucky, I don't have any RLS or nausea which is the worst withdrawal symptoms to me. So I'm really lucky on that front.

    Ugh I have a lot of anxiety which you could imagine and I am a consultant right now until school this fall so my job involves dealing with clients by phone conference and email every day. at least it's not in person. anyhow it's really hard to deal with people in a professional way when your brain is screaming at you and you're terrified if mis-phrasing an email or something. eh just venting and mentally preparing for the next month. I think I'm gonna try and avoid getting back on the subs because that's not unambiguously "the next right decision" Thanks for the advice!

    ps. to clarify my anxiety is mostly under control when i'm messed up on dope (imagine that!) but the wd has amplified it considerably, I feel empty inside but my rational mind is doing an awesome job keeping me from cravings and thinking about being able to look my mother in the eye and tell her I won't steal pain pills from her (she doesn't use but has had some surgeries) or destroy my body anymore.
    Last edited by clevername; 06-04-2012 at 04:05 PM.

  28. #28
    clevername is offline Member
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    ok, so I am looking over the COWS worksheet and I'm honestly so low on the scale its weird. my symptoms are sweating, dread/anxiety/psychological, mild sunburny feeling on body, dilated pupiles, and slight restlessness. Not sure exactly how to score it but that is _mild_. loperamide prolly controlling the GI. How am I so lucky to be in the middle of day 5 after _years_ of suboxone ABUSE and not be feeling worse? Symptoms are definitely more mild than on day 3. I think I must have a fast metabolism for drugs or something. That or the 5-week crash-taper has just gotten my body used to the idea that it is paying for its sins.
    Last edited by clevername; 06-04-2012 at 04:47 PM.

  29. #29
    clevername is offline Member
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    oh and also massive fatigue of course

  30. #30
    clevername is offline Member
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    got back from the gym. exercised my brains off its crazy I got more energized the longer I went cause my receptors must have been like bathing in it. did 30+ minutes cardio and a bunch of bench press. i think benching 275 while in opiate detox has to be a new record.

    I think like metal said, if I can do that then I can handle it at work tomorrow which I'm much more scared of... talking to people without having a nervous breakdown is a lot harder for me than exercise lol.

    I just flushed the rest of my subs and now have nothing in my (or any of my poor relatives') house that can stimulate an opiate receptor aside from getting clean.

    as caesar said, "alea iacta est" lol oh ????

    ps. looked in the mirror and my pupils are regular size - I must be swimming in endorphins
    Last edited by clevername; 06-04-2012 at 10:25 PM.

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