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  1. #31
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    good on ya mate. keep up the good work..

  2. #32
    MetalDuckMFC is offline Senior Member
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    Man, you have NO idea how happy it makes me to hear that you made the right decision! You will save yourself so much suffering in the long run.

    And I LOVE your attitude about all this. Everyone here knows exactly how difficult all of this is, and you are handling it like a real man. Don't call yourself a wuss; NOBODY who suffers through this could possibly be a wuss.

    I really wish you'd just attend one NA meeting. Just checking it out can't hurt, and only takes an hour, but nobody can force you. At the very least, keep it in mind. If you happen to find yourself overwhelmed at some point in the future, just remember that NA IS there. And so am I, if you ever need to talk. I could give you my email, or cell number for testing, if you'd like.

    -Bobby

  3. #33
    clevername is offline Member
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    Thanks for the encouragement. Woke up feeling hit like a truck again but I think that's the benzo for sleep mostly making me groggy. was in bed for about 7.5 hrs but woke up a half dozen times or more because I'd soaked everything with sweat. I really wish the nice patch of weather we had last week had continued because these gray cold days are tough on my ancient 24 yr old bones lol.

    I'm definitely keeping meetings in mind, I'll admit I have an aversion because of 2 things: my mom is a dry drunk ~35 yrs sober and she was a real drinker, and tons of ppl on her side of the family have flat out drank or drugged themselves to death. she is pretty anti-meeting (but would of course never tell me not to do what I thought I should do) but for her she says what worked was finding something she wanted to do more than drink - in her case she threw all her time into a business she started. in my case I'm going to get a phd. The second thing is that no one in my family is religious (mom and dad were raised catholic but it didn't do anything for them) and I think the religious angle might make me uncomfortable. I feel bad saying that because it looks like there are a lot of people of faith on this forum who do incredible good works every day and it's really inspiring.

    Anyhow I have a good support system of friends who aren't users (even the couple ones who drink have been 100% awesome when I told them I was going to lay off the booze indefinitely while I tried to get my mind in order). And my parents both know and are very supportive (actually they just know I'm on subs, they don't know I've stopped taking them - i want a week under my belt before I tell them or, you know, collapse on their front door haha). I know none of that is a substitute for a group of people who have or or going through the same thing as me, so that's why I've been spamming this forum and trying to read as much as possible. I know people here (and in the addiction field in general) are very pro-group, so I'm strongly considering it but dont feel like I need it yet. Right now what I need is bananas, gatorade, and to stop sweating all over everything

    Metal I will definitely ask you for your email or cell later if it starts getting rough but at the moment I've just been texting my best friend nonstop who's still a pot smoker but has quit abusive drinking, coke and benzos, and watched me go through some really self destructive stuff over the years so hes been really helpful and pro me-getting-clean.
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  4. #34
    clevername is offline Member
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    survived my first day back at work. was so incredibly cold and fatigued the whole time but whatever, people get sick. went to the gym and did 40 min of cardio so I'm riding that high and feeling so much better right now but it always goes away in a couple hours. at this stage you really gotta force your body to make those endorphins. wrapping up day 6 off the subs. it's definitely a good sign that I'm mostly noticing bone-chills and profound fatigue as opposed to daytime cold sweats, blown pupils, hot/cold flashes, sunburned skin feeling, etc. It looks like I'm feeling a little better objectively than the acute stage a couple days ago, but the fatigue is incredible and the only cure for it is physical activity - wishing I didn't have a desk job right now.
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  5. #35
    Strengthnow is offline Junior Member
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    Couldnt agree more about the endorphins, its crazy how you cant feel them when you are using. Now that I am getting off (day 4) every workout literally feels like I am in a new world.

    Try pushing yourself as hard as you can to do such, do 20 pushups, 30 situps and 20 leg lifts when you start to feel ridiculously weak. It has always given me that little endorphin kick you are talking about when you feel your darkest.

    Getting a few soft towels ready before I went to bed helped, trying to fall back asleep on soaked sheets is no fun.

    Let that sweat come out! Consider it your trophy and smile when you wake up soaked! Every drop that is secreated by your body is another step towards where you want to be.

    The whole forum is cheering you on, you got this brutha.

  6. #36
    clevername is offline Member
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    thanks for the advice man, I've read your story too and it resonates with my own. Maybe I'll post it again but sufficed to say OC made me feel like a "god" in college. The towel idea is brilliant! I've been trying to figure out what to do about the night sweats they are just miserable, I think that's the trick. You seem like you're doing well too coming ct off such a huge amount of hydro, I remember ct-ing from 60-80mg/day of norco and it being awful - it's all about attitude man.

    At a certain point we realize that whatever idea of dope we had, that idea was an illusion. If I could feel the way I felt when I first started taking OC, I would take it everyday of my life. But we all know that goes away and by the time you realize you're just "chasing the dragon" you're sucked in so bad you can't even imagine what it feels like to be normal. So kudos to you man on tearing the mask off of the demon that is dope and seeing it for what it is. That's what we all need to kick this thing. I realized I don't crave an OC - I crave the way OC made me feel 3 years ago. And that feeling will never come back again no matter how much dope I shove into the hole.
    Last edited by clevername; 06-05-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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  7. #37
    clevername is offline Member
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    This morning was hard. Objectively my symptoms are getting better on the COWS scale, but the fatigue is so bad. I curled up into a ball on the floor of the shower, moaning, for at least 15 minutes. The towels helped a lot with the night-sweats (thanks strength!), and I managed to get to sleep with only .5mg alprazolam and 50mg diphenhydramine as opposed to te full 2x0.5mg alprazolam that was necessary the previous nights. Woke up at least a half dozen times though. I think there's no doubt that I would be having an easier time had I tapered down to .5-.125mg of sub instead of jumping at 1mg after such a quick taper, but there's no going back and I'm in this for the long haul. Don't do drugs mmkay it is so not worth it

  8. #38
    thalia45 is offline Member
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    Clevername, the fatigue is so awful. I wish it would translate into sleep at night. I also know the towel routine: sometimes if I am lucky and throw down a towel on a sweat-soaked bed I can get back to sleep. Failing that, I am kinda getting used to 2AM showers...not much fun to think about but I feel better at least, if not sleepy.

    I am quite often on here at night (sleeplessness)-i'll keep an eye out for any posts you have made. Not fun, is this? But I do believe it will be better soon. You are brave to hang in there, and I am glad to have such a friend,

    Thalia

  9. #39
    clevername is offline Member
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    Thanks Thalia. I'm rooting for you too. It is amazing the connection that you can feel with people you've never met when you basically have access to them spilling their guts out in their "diary", and see so much of yourself there. I am looking forward to reading some of the things I've written as te weeks go by and I know I'm going to see a steady improvement no matter how black things might seem. One day at a time. People get sick, our minds just make it so much worse because we know there's a way "out". Of course the only real way out is through.

    Ps. "the only way out is through" is such a perfect saying for this situation. Robert frost maybe?
    Last edited by clevername; 06-06-2012 at 12:03 PM.

  10. #40
    MetalDuckMFC is offline Senior Member
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    clevername, thalia, yoh are both doing so well. I hate to hear people suffering, because I truly understand the feeling, but you both know you have to do it.

    Always remeber; You NEVER have to go through this again. It is entirely up to you.

    Here's to hoping you both feel better very soon!

    -Bobby

  11. #41
    clevername is offline Member
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    So today was brutally hard and very encouraging. Had to do a lot of firefighting by phone/email with clients that I did between bouts of lying on the floor, doing pushups/situps/leglifts (thanks for yet another good tip, Strength), and one trip to the gym. But I HANDLED all of it, nobody is fired and nothing burned down and so if I can get through this at my absolute worst, I can do anything. Because there is no other choice. Nothing can be avoided it can only be ignored until it gets worse. The only way out is through

    Then in the evening as I wrapped up my 7th day clean I had dinner with my parents and told them about being off the subs and they were so happy it was amazing to make them so proud (though I'm sure not out of the woods yet - I'm still so sick but good feelings keep it at bay). I might look back on this as one of the happiest moments of my life. I'm really glad in a way that I was on the subs so long without using fast-acting opiates because the cravings are barely there - my brain doesnt remember the rush nearly as well as it remembers the slavery.

    Thanks everyone who's posted on my thread, I think you all know exactly how nice of a feeling that is.
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  12. #42
    clevername is offline Member
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    so... can't sleep at all. I was feeling really pumped about the whole sleep thing earlier. Took 50mg diphenhydramine and 5mg melatonin (I hear that's a lot but those were the pills they had and I'm done chopping pills in this lifetime lol). I was so excited about being able to post on my thread that I had gotten to sleep for the first time without benzos! I got into bed around midnight and got to sleep within a half hour or so... cozy and comfortable even without any "real" sleeping pills - amazing!

    Of course then I woke up within 1.5-2 hours, drenched in sweat, put my towels down, changed blankets, tossed and turned for another 1hr. Finally cracked and took .25mg of alprazolam. Tossed and turned in my damp sick-bed for another hour, the alprazolam did absolutely nothing but make me feel slightly more relaxed and still unable to sleep. So I conceded defeat and took another .5mg alprazolam and here I am sitting at my desk hoping I'll get drowsy enough to collapse into my damp towel-covered sick bed of nastiness (and I washed the sheets last night for cryin out loud!).

    Man do I dislike the sleepless nights. I hate using these benzos for sleep (partly because xanax is so fast-acting that it is a _wretched_ sleeping pill, but mostly because I am so sick and tired of physical drug withdrawals that the last thing I want is a few days of panicky benzo-wd insomnia).

    Still easier to deal with for me than opiate insomnia because you don't get the fatigue so bad - thalia said it best that fatigue + no sleep = the worst.

    Never had a psychological difficulty quitting benzos (partially because I have a healthy respect for them, partially because they're just not my DOC - I'm just a pill-head who at various phases thought pills=good no matter what). But I know an addict is an addict is an addict so I'm trying to stay ever vigilant here and not kid myself

    I'm really looking forward to not being reliant on any pills whatsoever - that's kind of the point of this exercise. Still I'm trying to do what's best for my physical/mental health and I think sleep is really important for healing the mind/body and giving a little respite. I'd like to assure my loyal readers (lol) that I've been giving it the ol' college try for using OTC medecines, lots of exercise, etc. to sleep and it hasn't been working for me quite yet.

    Anyhow this wraps up another post that sounds more like something in a diary than something other people would want to read, but I guess that's part of the point. If I can just try to kinda document what I'm going through, how I'm feeling, what my hopes, shames, etc are... maybe it will resonate with someone out there whose wondering whether they're ready to throw off the chemical shackles of opiate dependence. Just have better connections that me so you can use lunesta/ambien or something instead of having to make due with alprazolam, The Worst Sleeping Pill Ever (tm).

  13. #43
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    Clever......
    when i first came here i had googled "fentanyl patches detox"......the first post i read was by some trucker named "Bob" who kept going back to using cause of lack of sleep.
    I quickly hooked up with a friend who had jumped off a high dose of methadone. I had jumped off a high dose of patches.
    All we talked about was lack of sleep at first. We kept reading threads where other's were already sleeping who had stopped using after us...............
    anyway.....the nights i spent spent reading thread after thread gave me lots of info about life without using.
    It also allowed my friend and i to develop a deep friendship which led to other friendships on here, which has led to friends for life.
    It wasn't my thread, it was kickntheaddiction's thread. We had lots of laughs together, tears, and an experience i wouldn't trade for the world.
    I met lots of people here who post in the nite.
    I now sleep....
    darned if i know when it started...........but it did.
    You did a quick hard taper from a pretty high dose to a low dose.
    You are doing great. I personally slept when i could. Some say never take naps.
    Believe me......i'm hearing you, reading your posts, saw that you asked Robt. the insomniac about sleep and had to post (while laughing)!
    You might want to click on my profile and see if you can find Ryan's (kickin's) thread.
    You did do a quick taper from high to low to none........so you may have a bit in common with what Ryan and I did which was we jumped high.
    I've kept from posting much on here cause it's a "sub thread" and i truly don't know very much about subs. I thought probably you would end up with some kind of reasonable taper....because darned if i ever heard of a taper from what you were doing to where you jumped so quickly.....so since you just jumped...hey join the club, looks like you are going to work your way through this.
    Read around on some threads where folks jumped high off some pretty potent stuff and i think you will feel really really great about how you are doing!
    Marian
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  14. #44
    Strengthnow is offline Junior Member
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    Psh, you got this clever!

    If you can push through such exhaustion as moaning in the shower for 15 mins, to that of going to the gym and exercising at home, you got it. It's the mental part of it that you gotta push through. Do you know how strong you sound to us! Have you read about people being shocked of your quick taper?

    I won't comment on subs because i have never used them but it is obvious that you are going through a much more difficult journey than I am. But that doesn't mean were not making the same journey, just perhaps driving in a car with worse gas mileage! Lol

    keep on posting and remember to reread your entire story often. We all love reading your story and the more of your thoughts you jot down the more you will have to reflect on. Look how strong you have been and feel how much stronger you will begin to be.

    I am a fan of language as well so I got two more Frost quotes for ya.

    "But I have promises to keep, and miles before I sleep and miles before i sleep.".

    Some journeys are tough, I thought the repetition of the last phrase was fitting with what we are going through. That promise to yourself Will take time, that promise to yourself will take time, that promise to yourself will take time.

    "Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up".

    Remember what the fence is you are taking down. It's not some white picket fence with a Golden retriever barking happily on the other side. It is a razor wire lined, 30 ft tall, machine gun emplaced monstrosity. The power of the past is what you are using to break it down, the power of the future is what you are using to move it aside.

    Keep pushing, I've never read of a sub user pushing so hard and doing so well

    Keep it up!

  15. #45
    clevername is offline Member
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    Strength - thank you for the encouragement man. You are tremendously good at saying what I need to hear so I only hope that you're saving some of that positivity for yourself as well.

    Woke up this morning feeling sooo tired but somehow different - in a good way. Like the hole inside my brain is starting to close up a little. I got into work late as usual but my boss knows I'm "under the weather" an he's cool with me taking my time. My nerves are still frayed, my skin feels weird, chills, etc. but things seem quite a bit more manageable.

    I've been feeling kind of giddy. The sub doesn't mess with personality as much as oxy so I was a pretty silly guy before but feelings seem to bubble out of me in waves now sometimes. I walked passed a mother and her little girl, who was, no kidding, walking a tiny little poofy dog and singing nonsense words and the mother and I looked at each other and started cracking up.

    Chills are getting uncomfortable so I'm going to try to eat a little and go to the gym soon and get my natural high on haha. Ive exercised like crazy throughout my taper and detox and my heart goes out to people whose medical conditions do not permit them to do strenuous exercise because it has really kept me together. I think the closest substitute is stretching/massage which anyone can do, but nothing beats sweating out some demons at the gym. Have a good day everyone.
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  16. #46
    clevername is offline Member
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    Shadow - I read kickin's thread for a while this morning and all I can say is wow. I used to love dones back in the day - long acting opiates are kinda my DOC cause they were so smooth feeling. Opana was the gold standard. You're right that this feels like a cakewalk compared to a cold turkey off methadone. You can really feel the pain and fear and determination in his words that guy is one tough cookie. In fact I have consistently been very empowered by the toughness of the people on this forum, whose struggles make mine look easy - including yourself. Fentanyl is some serious stuff I'm just lucky that by the time I got really bad on pills/H I couldn't afford to take such huge doses and had to put myself on subs instead.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevername View Post
    Shadow - I read kickin's thread for a while this morning and all I can say is wow. I used to love dones back in the day - long acting opiates are kinda my DOC cause they were so smooth feeling. Opana was the gold standard. You're right that this feels like a cakewalk compared to a cold turkey off methadone. You can really feel the pain and fear and determination in his words that guy is one tough cookie. In fact I have consistently been very empowered by the toughness of the people on this forum, whose struggles make mine look easy - including yourself. Fentanyl is some serious stuff I'm just lucky that by the time I got really bad on pills/H I couldn't afford to take such huge doses and had to put myself on subs instead.
    Yep...i wouldn't have made it without Ry for sure!
    Keep up the good work.....
    you've got tons of support here!
    not sleeping is tough......hang in there.

  18. #48
    clevername is offline Member
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    Hmm. Had my first... Not a craving but like a pre-craving. A bit of "nostalgia". Was reading someone's thread about oxys and just had this vivid memory of the way it would taste when you would put an 80 in ur mouth for a few seconds to moisten up that gummy coating, then wipe it on the bottom front underside of your shirt. Then it'd be all white except the letters would still be a little dark, and you'd have those blue-green smudges on your shirt and when u tasted it again it was bitter, bitter. Rituals are very powerful, huh? Hell, I haven't done that or even thought about it in years - u can't get oxys around here since a while back, just 30s. But I think this whole process is sort of dragging all this blurry stuff bak up. I remember showing a couple people how to rub off the coating and chew up a quarter in their front teeth. I hope they avoided this nasty trap.

  19. #49
    clevername is offline Member
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    Ok today was pretty good. Finishing up day 8 and I'm definitely over the hump. I still have symptoms - sneezing, chills, yawning, sunburn feeling, fatigue... GI issues - but the mental is pretty good and when I work out I feel great. Went to the gym twice today - I gained 15 pounds in the last couple years and I would love to get rid of it. And, you know, I'm an addict, and exercise makes me feel good

    I also just had a great 1.75hr conversation with a good friend I hadnt spoken to in a month and I feel still like waves of wellbeing and a little bit of euphoria. I think my body is starting to wake up.

    I know there's gonna be ups and downs in the next month but I think I can feel good about my ability to handle them. I also feel sorta peaceful and less pissed off about things. I thought earlier today that if someone tried to pick a fight with me I would just have such a big smile for them and keep on walking.

    Anyhow: Day 8. Over the hump. All told I missed 1 day of work and I'm still hurting but on the upswing. Write it down people. You can get off the subs without a vacation. If you want it, you don't need to be afraid. Just taper, jump, and EAT SO MUCH IMMODIUM EVERY DAY OMG
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  20. #50
    Strengthnow is offline Junior Member
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    Sounds like a great day!

    There is so much resonating with what I am going through in this post that it is ridiculous. The only thing I can figure out from our stories is our obsession with physical activities.

    I feel for those where pills were because of true injury, the lack of ability to go to the gym twice a day like we are just isnt feasible. I'm really glad to have read this post, its great to see you take such a great turn.

    Keep up the good fight!
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  21. #51
    clevername is offline Member
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    Also I'm probably going to wake up drenched in sweat, feeling terrible tomorrow, read that last post and say "what was that cocky, cheerful moron thinking writing that last night??" but I know the truth. life is pretty neat and its a real blessing to be in good health, have good family and friends, a decent job, and just generally have nothing but first-world problems as far as the eye can see.

  22. #52
    clevername is offline Member
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    Thanks strength! I'm definitely feeling the same vibe with your posts too and I'm really glad you picked the lovely month of June 2012 to detox along with me!

    I've been thinking a lot lately about how important physical activity is to mental health - and was thinking - what did people do like in the 50's?? My parents said people never used to work out unless they were sort of upper-class, and everybody smoked cigarettes and most drank. If I smoked, drank, and never exercised I would go bonkers so quick you could not imagine. How does Don Draper do it...
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  23. #53
    MetalDuckMFC is offline Senior Member
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    Man, clever, you are amazing!!!

    Sorry I haven't beeb posting to you, but I have been so busy. My 18 year old girlfriend (I'm only 22) went out and bought a 1991 Toyota Camry from someone on craigslist for $500 because "She REALLY needed the money." obbiously, I was skeptical. So I've been going through the entire engine, fuses, bulbs, etc. As well as wiring up an $800 amp, and 2 15" subwoofers. That was a gift for me. But, thank God, it only had a few blown fuses, 1 bad tire, and a bad battery. Man, she scored, especially since I'm the one who has to do ALL the work

    Sorry for slipping of topic here, I just thought you'd like to hear something that isn't about withdrawal and lack of sleep.

    But you are an INCRDIBLE ! I have never seen someone come to these forums with half of theballs you have. And you're helping others in the process. A lot of people just lurk, reading stories for just glimpses of hope. People reading your thread realize that IT can be done, with some determination.

    Day 8, though! That is a huge achievement, and you should be be over the worst of it! Just keep on keepin' it on, man. I have you in my prayers, and I just KNOW that you WILL suceed.

    -Bobby
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  24. #54
    clevername is offline Member
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    Thanks metal man! Woke up 1hr ago after ~1hr of sleep feeling really uncomfortable (though I felt cozy as heck getting to sleep with some melatonin+diphenhydramine). I think I'm going to avoid the diphenhydramine in the future - it's a really weird drug and probably not something I need to be adding to my crazy brain cocktail right now. I also don't see a situation in which melatonin would be too little and diphen would be enough. The way my brain works it doesn't seem to even make me drowsy - antihistamines never have.

    I remember the Dr. once being crazily insistent that I not drive after giving me a promethazine injection when I had food poisoning in college (you know what... that was actually worse than w/d!! I _have_ been sicker than this before!) - he told me "get back to your dorm fast, you will be completely passed out within 10 minutes of giving you this shot". Of course there my downer-tolerant self was 2 hrs later, feeling no fatigue, sitting on the bench outside the dorm in the sun drinking a powerade.

    Just took 1mg alprazolam - I do not negotiate with terrorists, brain! Last couple nights I've been waiting until realllly late before taking a benzo because I only take it if I need it, titrating in small doses with time in between, but it is really messing up the start of my days because if you take a sleeping pill at 5am, you wake up at 9-10am (the joys of the flexible work schedule of a consultant) and you feel like you were hit by a steamroller. So I'm "giving in" a little earlier tonite in interest of seeing if the morning feels easier. Wish I didn't need a benzo for sleep but I'm just not there yet I guess.

    Good news though - I didn't soak my bed with sweat yet. Also sweated less at the gym yesterday so like Strength maybe things are turning around for me, sweat-wise. I wonder if I schedule my physical my dr. would give me something for sleep besides benzo because I hate the idea of using such an addictive substance while detoxing - I know it's gotta be slightly making me think some symptoms are worse than they are. Still I'm feeling good about this process and if I need something for sleep than so be it.

    No rest for the wicked, eh? Still the best decision I've ever made in my life and even these 8 days of clean time are my biggest accomplishment. I say _these_ 8 days of clean time because I aint doin em again. I want off this ????, I'm over the hump, and I'm not goin back.

    Anyhow enough rambling for now. Still can't sleep, but feeling positive. Just getting out of bed helps - I was really uncomfortable trying to sleep when I was in bed, but now that I'm at the computer things are a lot better. I'm trying to be honest about the physical/mental symptoms of this to give other people an accurate depiction of the experience, without being too dramatic and scaring anyone. this is all very manageable.

    Ps. enjoy the 18 yr old gfs while you can, man - half ur age + 7, right? That puts my lower level at 19 for now hahah

  25. #55
    clevername is offline Member
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    also I love that you put an $800 sound system into a $500 car man! you got your priorities straight no doubt, enjoy those tunes

  26. #56
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    Still sick, still tired, still hard to get out of bed... But didn't soak my sheets with sweat and was under my big cozy down comforter all night. Man am I grateful for that it realllly makes a difference. Starting out day 9 then I can have the whole weekend to relax, recuperate, and think about how much better I feel than I did last weekend.

  27. #57
    surfdog is offline Senior Member
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    Clever I am impressed you are doing grear man keep it up! Surfdog

  28. #58
    thalia45 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevername View Post
    Still sick, still tired, still hard to get out of bed... But didn't soak my sheets with sweat and was under my big cozy down comforter all night. Man am I grateful for that it realllly makes a difference. Starting out day 9 then I can have the whole weekend to relax, recuperate, and think about how much better I feel than I did last weekend.
    My comforter is just that at the moment; when I wake up all cold/sweaty I get up and read for a bit. Usually I can get relaxed enough (with the help of an electrolyte pill and a Diazapam) to go back to sleep for a couple of hours at least. But that comforter...what a blessing!

  29. #59
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    Way to go Thalia - tapering is really a double edged sword cause ur just prolonging the misery and keeping your brain on the rollercoaster. Jumping can be really mentally better cause you know that as long as u don't put anything new into ur system, ur gettin better every minute. You sound like you're doing better already.

  30. #60
    tlp1967 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    23

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    Clever,I can’t offer you any advice,but I truly admire how you are handling yourself and everything around you. You are doing this little by little each day and you are almost there. Sometimes just talking helps. We are all our own each individual story,with real feelings and emotions,with so much in common but yet so much different. Keep in mind your story is not only offering encouragement to others,but it’s encouraging you as well. You are getting so much strength from your postings,so let it out.

    If I may offer one thing to you that I learned a few years ago in rehab that has stuck with me. “There’s no elevator. You have to take the steps”.

    You can do this,we all can.

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