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Sleep Apnea from Sub--same on Suboxone?
  1. #1
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Default Sleep Apnea from Sub--same on Suboxone?

    Hey everyone,

    Anyone know what happens to your sleep patterns when on Sub? As some of you know, I'm starting a methadone detox (using Vicodin to help with withdrawal pain) on Saturday, then after 4-5 days off of methadone, will wait another 12-18 hours, then get switched over to Suboxone courtesy of the FDA. (FDA study at major university.)

    One of the many reasons I've chosen to get off of methadone is that since using it (for chronic pain) I developed sleep apnea. I didn't even know I had it. I thought all those symptoms I was having were a direct result of methadone use--including the heavy snoring. Then I had a friend spend the night on the couch in my bedroom and she said she was very alarmed because she thought I was going to die as apparently I stopped breathing in my sleep for a few seconds right after a strange bout of heavy (and I'm sure unattractive) snoring. She was about to wake me up, but my breathing resumed so she didn't.

    I sort of dismissed it, but then this morning I read a post from a woman whose husband, while on methadone, had the all the same symptoms: chronic fatigue, nodding off, obsessive dreaming, loud snoring, falling asleep while driving (very scary for me as it happens to me every time I get on the freeway), and loss of memory and concentration. I never connected all this to sleep apnea--frankly, I didn't even know what sleep apnea was really.

    Anyway, what I want to know is what are the side effects of suboxone in relationship to any sleeping disorders? Please tell me that sub doesn't have sleep apnea as a possible side effect!

    Thanks for any info/experiences anyone can share on this subject.

    piper

    P.S. My goal is to be off of sub in 30 days so I will be opiate free--if I can handle the underlying chronic pain that caused me to take opiates in the first place. (Starting five years ago.)

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Hey everyone,

    Anyone know what happens to your sleep patterns when on Sub? As some of you know, I'm starting a methadone detox (using Vicodin to help with withdrawal pain) on Saturday, then after 4-5 days off of methadone, will wait another 12-18 hours, then get switched over to Suboxone courtesy of the FDA. (FDA study at major university.)

    One of the many reasons I've chosen to get off of methadone is that since using it (for chronic pain) I developed sleep apnea. I didn't even know I had it. I thought all those symptoms I was having were a direct result of methadone use--including the heavy snoring. Then I had a friend spend the night on the couch in my bedroom and she said she was very alarmed because she thought I was going to die as apparently I stopped breathing in my sleep for a few seconds right after a strange bout of heavy (and I'm sure unattractive) snoring. She was about to wake me up, but my breathing resumed so she didn't.

    I sort of dismissed it, but then this morning I read a post from a woman whose husband, while on methadone, had the all the same symptoms: chronic fatigue, nodding off, obsessive dreaming, loud snoring, falling asleep while driving (very scary for me as it happens to me every time I get on the freeway), and loss of memory and concentration. I never connected all this to sleep apnea--frankly, I didn't even know what sleep apnea was really.

    Anyway, what I want to know is what are the side effects of suboxone in relationship to any sleeping disorders? Please tell me that sub doesn't have sleep apnea as a possible side effect!

    Thanks for any info/experiences anyone can share on this subject.

    piper

    P.S. My goal is to be off of sub in 30 days so I will be opiate free--if I can handle the underlying chronic pain that caused me to take opiates in the first place. (Starting five years ago.)

    Piper,
    It's really cool that you are getting to participate in a clinical study for Buprenorphine. I got in on a couple of medication studies years ago for my autoimmune disease problems, it was a great experience for me. Hopefully this will help you.

    I have also suffered with sleep apnea over the years. Thankfully I no longer have problems, but I still have my c-pap machine and went through three different sleep studies over the years. The last time I did one the drs said I was waking up like 42 times an hour. That really sucked. Hard to get ANY rest like that. It's very dangerous too with the breathing issues when snoring. One can actually die. So it's nothing to dismiss lightly. You really need to watch it if it's as bad as you say when driving. It's a condition that if bad enough they will cancel driver's licenses over it. Good luck on that one.

    I successfully used Subutex (about the same as Suboxone) for opiate detox so I can relate to your question about sleep. Of course we have sleep problems anyway during detox, so give yourself a couple days on the Suboxone for it to work and you sleep. I found that if I took the Subutex too close to bedtime I had problems falling asleep with it. I had to get the dr to give me Seroquel so I could sleep. I am a recovering benzo addict so I had to stay away Klonopin or Valium,etc for sleep help. Seroquel is a pysch med, but it helped me sleep. While the Suboxone can kind of "wire" you a little, and it will seem like there is a sleep problem, there is nothing in Suboxone that will worsen your sleep apnea problems. You may have difficulty going to sleep, but it's not worsening the sleep apnea. My suggestion is to take your Suboxone as much before bedtime as is possible. I didn't take any Subutex after late afternoon myself and it helped. When I began to taper off it, I only took it early in the day and eliminated that later dose completely so I wouldn't have to deal with it at bedtime. You shouldn't have any problems with the sleep apnea from taking Suboxone. Stay in touch ... I can help you with some suggestions for not taking the Suboxone too long and stopping with no W/Ds like you read about. Keep posting what is happening with this. Good luck and God bless.

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    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Default Sleep apnea on methadone...

    Robert,

    VERY helpful to read your post--thanks so much. First thing I want to ask is what is a c-pap machine? Is that what solved your sleep apnea? Because I sure would like to know!

    Perhaps once I'm off the methadone it will take care of itself, I don't know. I still wonder if the apnea resulted from the methadone or if it surfaced of its own accord. I will look into Seroquel in case I have sleep issues with the Sub--that is, if I can't sleep even after I try spacing the doses as you suggested.

    Yes, it is my goal to get off even the Sub after 30 days. Any longer and I will get addicted to that as well though I know it's not as hard to get off Sub as it is Methadone--for sure. Were you on Methadone before you switched to Sub?

    The study I'm in has two phases. Phase I gives me the option of quitting the Suboxone in 30 days so they would start tapering me off in the middle I'm guessing. They claim only about 25% make it through the first phase.
    If I "graduate" (wrong choice of words there) to Phase II, then they will keep on it for 36 weeks then taper me off. The overall objective of the study is to get opiate users off of opiates altogether--using, of course, suboxone.

    I am grateful to have this study since I do not have medical insurance right now and this would cost tons of $$$ if I went through this process anywhere else.

    I've been on opiates (first Vicodin/Oxy, then methadone) for five years because of chronic pain (multiple issues with my nec) so I am looking into alternative, non-narctoic methods of dealing with it (a miracle from God would be ideal) once I'm off the Sub.

    Well, that's more than you wanted to know, but I will for sure keep you apprised of how the detox goes. I have people praying for me--especially that I won't have to go beyond Phase I and be opiate free once and for all.

    Thanks again for all your advice.

    God Bless,
    piper


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Piper,
    It's really cool that you are getting to participate in a clinical study for Buprenorphine. I got in on a couple of medication studies years ago for my autoimmune disease problems, it was a great experience for me. Hopefully this will help you.

    I have also suffered with sleep apnea over the years. Thankfully I no longer have problems, but I still have my c-pap machine and went through three different sleep studies over the years. The last time I did one the drs said I was waking up like 42 times an hour. That really sucked. Hard to get ANY rest like that. It's very dangerous too with the breathing issues when snoring. One can actually die. So it's nothing to dismiss lightly. You really need to watch it if it's as bad as you say when driving. It's a condition that if bad enough they will cancel driver's licenses over it. Good luck on that one.

    I successfully used Subutex (about the same as Suboxone) for opiate detox so I can relate to your question about sleep. Of course we have sleep problems anyway during detox, so give yourself a couple days on the Suboxone for it to work and you sleep. I found that if I took the Subutex too close to bedtime I had problems falling asleep with it. I had to get the dr to give me Seroquel so I could sleep. I am a recovering benzo addict so I had to stay away Klonopin or Valium,etc for sleep help. Seroquel is a pysch med, but it helped me sleep. While the Suboxone can kind of "wire" you a little, and it will seem like there is a sleep problem, there is nothing in Suboxone that will worsen your sleep apnea problems. You may have difficulty going to sleep, but it's not worsening the sleep apnea. My suggestion is to take your Suboxone as much before bedtime as is possible. I didn't take any Subutex after late afternoon myself and it helped. When I began to taper off it, I only took it early in the day and eliminated that later dose completely so I wouldn't have to deal with it at bedtime. You shouldn't have any problems with the sleep apnea from taking Suboxone. Stay in touch ... I can help you with some suggestions for not taking the Suboxone too long and stopping with no W/Ds like you read about. Keep posting what is happening with this. Good luck and God bless.

  4. #4
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    VERY helpful to read your post--thanks so much. First thing I want to ask is what is a c-pap machine? Is that what solved your sleep apnea? Because I sure would like to know!

    Perhaps once I'm off the methadone it will take care of itself, I don't know. I still wonder if the apnea resulted from the methadone or if it surfaced of its own accord. I will look into Seroquel in case I have sleep issues with the Sub--that is, if I can't sleep even after I try spacing the doses as you suggested.

    Yes, it is my goal to get off even the Sub after 30 days. Any longer and I will get addicted to that as well though I know it's not as hard to get off Sub as it is Methadone--for sure. Were you on Methadone before you switched to Sub?

    The study I'm in has two phases. Phase I gives me the option of quitting the Suboxone in 30 days so they would start tapering me off in the middle I'm guessing. They claim only about 25% make it through the first phase.
    If I "graduate" (wrong choice of words there) to Phase II, then they will keep on it for 36 weeks then taper me off. The overall objective of the study is to get opiate users off of opiates altogether--using, of course, suboxone.

    I am grateful to have this study since I do not have medical insurance right now and this would cost tons of $$$ if I went through this process anywhere else.

    I've been on opiates (first Vicodin/Oxy, then methadone) for five years because of chronic pain (multiple issues with my nec) so I am looking into alternative, non-narctoic methods of dealing with it (a miracle from God would be ideal) once I'm off the Sub.

    Well, that's more than you wanted to know, but I will for sure keep you apprised of how the detox goes. I have people praying for me--especially that I won't have to go beyond Phase I and be opiate free once and for all.

    Thanks again for all your advice.

    God Bless,
    piper

    Piper ... a cpap machine has a mask that fits over your mouth and nose. You can adjust the air flow coming in for proper breathing when you're asleep. With sleep apnea your air intake is restricted and the cpap machine forces air in so you don't have any problems with breathing, snoring, etc. Most everyone with diagnosed sleep apnea uses them. I would definitely recommend that you ask about one. The air flow is adjusted to each person's particular needs. They usually have you do a sleep study to determine how it should be set. One night you sleep without it and they observe your sleep patterns. The next night you sleep with the mask on and they adjust the air while you are sleeping so it is set properly for you specificly. Often there are sleep studies done in experimental settings like you are in with the Suboxone if you have no insurance. If you go to www.sleepapneainfo.com/ you can find existing clinical studies. I just looked and there were several ongoing studies in different areas of the country. The link to check for current study locations is at the bottom of the right-hand side of the home page.

    I doubt the methadone had anything to do with the sleep apnea. I have never heard of that anyway. I have a question for you regarding the sleep apnea. Do you have a weight issue??? I only ask as this is the most common cause for sleep apnea. Overweight people aren't the only ones who have sleep apnea but that is the most common cause. Loss of weight often cures the problem for these people.

    Stopping the Soboxone in 30 days is very realistic. It took me about six weeks, but I could have done it in 30 days had I made up my mind beforehand to do so. You just have to start tapering your dose a little sooner than I did. I was not on methadone prior to Subutex but was a very heavy OC user for many, many years. As long as your methadone dose is down to the correct level when you start the Suboxone that should not cause any problems. Lots of people stop methadone with Suboxone successfully. The most important thing is stopping in a short time like you are trying to do so there is no dependency built up to the Suboxone. Looking for a miracle from God is not an unreasonable request. Ironically that is what healed me from my addiction illness as well as other health problems. I am completely healed today and I owe it all to Jesus Christ. That is what changed my life more than anything and made me well. 16 months ago I was on 14 prescriptions. Today I take 3 prescriptions. All things are possible through Christ including both a reprieve from sleep apnea and problems with addiction. Stay in touch. Good luck and God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 05-22-2008 at 08:05 AM.

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    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Robert,

    Thanks for the info. on the cpap machine. I'll look into it, as well as the sleep study. In answer to your question, no, I am not my formerly svelte self these days--due, in large (no pun intended) part to the methadone which does, as many will attest to, cause weight gain. Just another good reason for me to be off this drug though I've heard that suboxone has the same potential side effect.

    Specifically I am about 20 pounds overweight right now, even though I don't eat all that much so I know it's the methadone. Plus, I crave sugar constantly. Since I'm tall (5'9'") most people don't realize I'm overweight, but trust me I know it. It's hard to believe though that just 20 extra pounds can cause sleep apnea but, again, I know little about this disorder.

    So, directly or indirectly you could say that methadone can cause sleep apnea if it (methadone) causes you gain weight and the extra weight contributes to sleep apnea.

    Your accounting of how you got off Sub is encouraging. I don't know why only 25% of the people in that FDA study didn't succeed in tapering off in 30 days--maybe they had too heavy of a drug habit, maybe they weren't motivated enough, maybe....well, who knows really.

    For me, I feel that I have to seriously try to taper off in 30 days because I need to see, after 5 years of being on opiates, how much underlying pain I really have after the effects of all the methadone, suboxone, etc. wear off. I realize that it takes a lot longer for our own endorphins, etc., to get built back up and along that line, I am doing quite a bit of research as to how I can do that without resorting to opiates. At the same time, I am on a mission to study God's Word regarding healing; specifically, to meditate on all the scriptures of people who received the healing that Jesus clearly wanted to give them (and in fact did give them in every circumstance where they were believing He would.) It was only in his own hometown that he could "do no mighty works because of their unbelief." There you go.

    So, bottom line here is that I am approaching it from both ends--the natural and the spiritual, though I almost hate to make a distinction between the two because didn't God create those "natural" means as well? For example, two proven natural ways to build endorphins is LOTS of exercise and lots of laughter. Granted, it's a little more challenging on the last one since you can't really make your self laugh--at least not without being locked up. And since, as a writer, I'm alone a lot--writing--I don't have other people around to send me into body-healing hysterics.

    But, I digress. The fact is, "Bodily exercise profits a little", and "a merry heart doeth good like a medicine" is our spiritual--and scriptural--instructions. So the two modes of healing definitely converge.

    Having said that, what I need is a working of miracles since God will have to change the deformity in my neck, i.e., reverse the reverse cervical curve in my neck which has led to a lot of the other secondary issues. Hey, I certainly believe the Jesus can--and will--do it as He is no respector of persons, only, as we clearly see in His word, a respector of faith.

    So, the gist of all this is thank you for your support and I would covet your prayers over the next week--both for grace to help me through this detox period and for an open heart that I may not "forget all his benefits" purchased for me by the atoning work of the Cross. "By his stripes I was healed, and if I was healed I am!" (I think C.L. Lewis would approve of such logic to appropriate faith.) Children have no problem receiving from Jesus--it's us adults who (often) make it complicated.

    I recently watched a beautiful example of that on a video of a healing conference. A 3-year-old girl with a broken arm was brought to the conference. Shortly after the evangelist laid hands on her, the little girl told her mother that "Jesus came down and healed me and went back up." She said it matter of factly--as though this was the most normal thing in the world to happen. When they took the cast off the little girl, she could move her arm perfectly. They then took her to the doctor, he X-rayed it, and where there once was an obvious fracture (they showed the before and after X-rays on the video) there was now a normal looking elbow--fracture free!

    Jesus said, "Unless we become like one of these [children]we shall not receive the Kingdom of Heaven." Well we all know that the in the Kingdom of Heaven there is no sickness, disease, poverty, or sorrow. So, I say, Lord let me have that child-like faith to think it not strange that Jesus would come down and heal a broken arm, or, in my case, a malformed neck and all its ancillary malformities.

    Okay, I think I've given you enough reading for one day! Again, it is very encouraging to hear your testimony of God's love and faithfulness in your life. Thanks so much for sharing that as well as the specific info I can use to help me with the sleep apnea, etc.

    Have to go...I'm off to walk around a football stadium so I can get rid of those 20 extra pounds!

    piper



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Piper ... a cpap machine has a mask that fits over your mouth and nose. You can adjust the air flow coming in for proper breathing when you're asleep. With sleep apnea your air intake is restricted and the cpap machine forces air in so you don't have any problems with breathing, snoring, etc. Most everyone with diagnosed sleep apnea uses them. I would definitely recommend that you ask about one. The air flow is adjusted to each person's particular needs. They usually have you do a sleep study to determine how it should be set. One night you sleep without it and they observe your sleep patterns. The next night you sleep with the mask on and they adjust the air while you are sleeping so it is set properly for you specificly. Often there are sleep studies done in experimental settings like you are in with the Suboxone if you have no insurance. If you go to www.sleepapneainfo.com/ you can find existing clinical studies. I just looked and there were several ongoing studies in different areas of the country. The link to check for current study locations is at the bottom of the right-hand side of the home page.

    I doubt the methadone had anything to do with the sleep apnea. I have never heard of that anyway. I have a question for you regarding the sleep apnea. Do you have a weight issue??? I only ask as this is the most common cause for sleep apnea. Overweight people aren't the only ones who have sleep apnea but that is the most common cause. Loss of weight often cures the problem for these people.

    Stopping the Soboxone in 30 days is very realistic. It took me about six weeks, but I could have done it in 30 days had I made up my mind beforehand to do so. You just have to start tapering your dose a little sooner than I did. I was not on methadone prior to Subutex but was a very heavy OC user for many, many years. As long as your methadone dose is down to the correct level when you start the Suboxone that should not cause any problems. Lots of people stop methadone with Suboxone successfully. The most important thing is stopping in a short time like you are trying to do so there is no dependency built up to the Suboxone. Looking for a miracle from God is not an unreasonable request. Ironically that is what healed me from my addiction illness as well as other health problems. I am completely healed today and I owe it all to Jesus Christ. That is what changed my life more than anything and made me well. 16 months ago I was on 14 prescriptions. Today I take 3 prescriptions. All things are possible through Christ including both a reprieve from sleep apnea and problems with addiction. Stay in touch. Good luck and God bless.

  6. #6
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    Thanks for the info. on the cpap machine. I'll look into it, as well as the sleep study. In answer to your question, no, I am not my formerly svelte self these days--due, in large (no pun intended) part to the methadone which does, as many will attest to, cause weight gain. Just another good reason for me to be off this drug though I've heard that suboxone has the same potential side effect.

    Specifically I am about 20 pounds overweight right now, even though I don't eat all that much so I know it's the methadone. Plus, I crave sugar constantly. Since I'm tall (5'9'") most people don't realize I'm overweight, but trust me I know it. It's hard to believe though that just 20 extra pounds can cause sleep apnea but, again, I know little about this disorder.

    So, directly or indirectly you could say that methadone can cause sleep apnea if it (methadone) causes you gain weight and the extra weight contributes to sleep apnea.

    Your accounting of how you got off Sub is encouraging. I don't know why only 25% of the people in that FDA study didn't succeed in tapering off in 30 days--maybe they had too heavy of a drug habit, maybe they weren't motivated enough, maybe....well, who knows really.

    For me, I feel that I have to seriously try to taper off in 30 days because I need to see, after 5 years of being on opiates, how much underlying pain I really have after the effects of all the methadone, suboxone, etc. wear off. I realize that it takes a lot longer for our own endorphins, etc., to get built back up and along that line, I am doing quite a bit of research as to how I can do that without resorting to opiates. At the same time, I am on a mission to study God's Word regarding healing; specifically, to meditate on all the scriptures of people who received the healing that Jesus clearly wanted to give them (and in fact did give them in every circumstance where they were believing He would.) It was only in his own hometown that he could "do no mighty works because of their unbelief." There you go.

    So, bottom line here is that I am approaching it from both ends--the natural and the spiritual, though I almost hate to make a distinction between the two because didn't God create those "natural" means as well? For example, two proven natural ways to build endorphins is LOTS of exercise and lots of laughter. Granted, it's a little more challenging on the last one since you can't really make your self laugh--at least not without being locked up. And since, as a writer, I'm alone a lot--writing--I don't have other people around to send me into body-healing hysterics.

    But, I digress. The fact is, "Bodily exercise profits a little", and "a merry heart doeth good like a medicine" is our spiritual--and scriptural--instructions. So the two modes of healing definitely converge.

    Having said that, what I need is a working of miracles since God will have to change the deformity in my neck, i.e., reverse the reverse cervical curve in my neck which has led to a lot of the other secondary issues. Hey, I certainly believe the Jesus can--and will--do it as He is no respector of persons, only, as we clearly see in His word, a respector of faith.

    So, the gist of all this is thank you for your support and I would covet your prayers over the next week--both for grace to help me through this detox period and for an open heart that I may not "forget all his benefits" purchased for me by the atoning work of the Cross. "By his stripes I was healed, and if I was healed I am!" (I think C.L. Lewis would approve of such logic to appropriate faith.) Children have no problem receiving from Jesus--it's us adults who (often) make it complicated.

    I recently watched a beautiful example of that on a video of a healing conference. A 3-year-old girl with a broken arm was brought to the conference. Shortly after the evangelist laid hands on her, the little girl told her mother that "Jesus came down and healed me and went back up." She said it matter of factly--as though this was the most normal thing in the world to happen. When they took the cast off the little girl, she could move her arm perfectly. They then took her to the doctor, he X-rayed it, and where there once was an obvious fracture (they showed the before and after X-rays on the video) there was now a normal looking elbow--fracture free!

    Jesus said, "Unless we become like one of these [children]we shall not receive the Kingdom of Heaven." Well we all know that the in the Kingdom of Heaven there is no sickness, disease, poverty, or sorrow. So, I say, Lord let me have that child-like faith to think it not strange that Jesus would come down and heal a broken arm, or, in my case, a malformed neck and all its ancillary malformities.

    Okay, I think I've given you enough reading for one day! Again, it is very encouraging to hear your testimony of God's love and faithfulness in your life. Thanks so much for sharing that as well as the specific info I can use to help me with the sleep apnea, etc.

    Have to go...I'm off to walk around a football stadium so I can get rid of those 20 extra pounds!

    piper

    I enjoyed reading your reply. I also think that CS Lewis would agree with your philosophy on faith. Lewis said in no uncertain terms that Christ was either who He claimed to be or else He was the world's biggest fraud. But no way was He was just a prophet as some profess. He was the Son of Man. The miracles He performed then and the miracles He performs today should convince anyone. His healing of me was indeed a miracle like I could never have imagined. As you quoted, "Unless we become like one of these children we can not receive the Kingdom of Heaven." That scripture is so very simple. The Word is so very simple as are children. Only man makes it complicated wanting to question everything that is so evident.

    Just to share a little more with you on my story since I see you are truly a part of the body of Christ ... my history includes multiple injuries from 25 years of competitive racquetball and running cross country as well as disease. I have had a foot surgery, an elbow surgery, five knee operations, I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, congenital scoliosis, sleep apnea, degenerative disc disease, Raynaud's Phenomenon and APS (antiphospholid syndrome) which has caused two blood clots. My heart stopped numerous times from a 40 year addiction problem, I went through seizures and everything you can imagine. All of the pain issues was where my opiate addiction came from. It has lasted for decades. Today I am basically well. God allows me to play racquetball again and 16 months ago I walked with a cane. My dr is astounded. He doesn't know what to say. I take nothing for pain except Ibuprophen and I really have very little pain. I sleep like a baby. I found that once I got off the pain meds (OC) that my pain was not really as bad as I had thought it was. I imagine you will find similar results following your methadone detox. At least you will be able to see what your true pain level is anyway. Don't worry ... I will include you in my prayers and my prayer group. God answers my prayers all the time. I am alive today because of answered prayers.

    While losing the 20lbs is good for your health, a 20lb gain at 5'9" should not cause serious sleep apnea. I guess it is possible, but I don't think it's likely. That is not that much overweight. There are probably some other reasons for the problem. Taking drugs can make us have sleep problems, but sleep apnea is more than a simple problem sleeping as you know. Falling asleep at the wheel is serious. I would consider checking into a sleep study after this program is completed. The cpap is the medical standard for dealing with sleep apnea. I would finish this drug program and see if it gets better after stopping all the methadone and everything including the Suboxone and then see if you still need to do the sleep study. Hopefully by stopping all the drugs and with the power of prayer that you will find relief from the sleep problems. Just stay positive. Stay in touch how you are doing. Good luck and God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 05-22-2008 at 02:02 PM.

  7. #7
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Hey Robert,

    "His healing of me was indeed a miracle like I could never have imagined". Love to hear that!
    "]http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=7932226[/URL]
    "My dr is astounded. He doesn't know what to say".
    That's what we as Christians should all be doing...astounding doctors! You certainly went through a lot and now look at you...what a testimony. I too, am looking for to getting out that ball and racquet again--except I played tennis (was on my college's tennis team).

    Speaking of astounding doctors, view this video. It was on the front page of several news sites. What a great testimony about a woman everyone thought was dead!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R8bgbx0DYU&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIPF...eature=related



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I enjoyed reading your reply. I also think that CS Lewis would agree with your philosophy on faith. Lewis said in no uncertain terms that Christ was either who He claimed to be or else He was the world's biggest fraud. But no way was He was just a prophet as some profess. He was the Son of Man. The miracles He performed then and the miracles He performs today should convince anyone. His healing of me was indeed a miracle like I could never have imagined. As you quoted, "Unless we become like one of these children we can not receive the Kingdom of Heaven." That scripture is so very simple. The Word is so very simple as are children. Only man makes it complicated wanting to question everything that is so evident.

    Just to share a little more with you on my story since I see you are truly a part of the body of Christ ... my history includes multiple injuries from 25 years of competitive racquetball and running cross country as well as disease. I have had a foot surgery, an elbow surgery, five knee operations, I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, congenital scoliosis, sleep apnea, degenerative disc disease, Raynaud's Phenomenon and APS (antiphospholid syndrome) which has caused two blood clots. My heart stopped numerous times from a 40 year addiction problem, I went through seizures and everything you can imagine. All of the pain issues was where my opiate addiction came from. It has lasted for decades. Today I am basically well. God allows me to play racquetball again and 16 months ago I walked with a cane. My dr is astounded. He doesn't know what to say. I take nothing for pain except Ibuprophen and I really have very little pain. I sleep like a baby. I found that once I got off the pain meds (OC) that my pain was not really as bad as I had thought it was. I imagine you will find similar results following your methadone detox. At least you will be able to see what your true pain level is anyway. Don't worry ... I will include you in my prayers and my prayer group. God answers my prayers all the time. I am alive today because of answered prayers.

    While losing the 20lbs is good for your health, a 20lb gain at 5'9" should not cause serious sleep apnea. I guess it is possible, but I don't think it's likely. That is not that much overweight. There are probably some other reasons for the problem. Taking drugs can make us have sleep problems, but sleep apnea is more than a simple problem sleeping as you know. Falling asleep at the wheel is serious. I would consider checking into a sleep study after this program is completed. The cpap is the medical standard for dealing with sleep apnea. I would finish this drug program and see if it gets better after stopping all the methadone and everything including the Suboxone and then see if you still need to do the sleep study. Hopefully by stopping all the drugs and with the power of prayer that you will find relief from the sleep problems. Just stay positive. Stay in touch how you are doing. Good luck and God bless.

  8. #8
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Default Last post was partially deleted? You only got part of it!

    Hey Robert,

    Don't know what happened but you only got part of post--here (I hope) is the owhole post I wrote

    "His healing of me was indeed a miracle like I could never have imagined". Love to hear that!
    "]http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=7932226[/URL]
    "My dr is astounded. He doesn't know what to say".
    That's what we as Christians should all be doing...astounding doctors! You certainly went through a lot and now look at you...what a testimony. I too, am looking for to getting out that ball and racquet again--except I played tennis (was on my college's tennis team).

    Speaking of astounding doctors, view this video. It was on the front page of several news sites. What a great testimony about a woman everyone thought was dead!

    [URL="http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=7932226

    RE: Sleep apnea. Is there a particular specialist I should go to to get the official diagnosis and then the cpap machine? I still am determined to lose the 20 lbs, though it's hard walking because of a partially failed back surgery (my 2nd) a few years ago. Even today, I cannot sleep on my left side because of some impingement on my discs CAUSED by the surgery--in other words, before the surgery I could sleep on my left side.

    [I]"Don't worry ... I will include you in my prayers and my prayer group."[/I]
    That would be wonderful! I truly believe that the "effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Make that more than one righteous men (made so by the blood of Jesus Christ) and you have that "one can put a thousand to flight and two can put then thousand to flight" in operation.

    I admit, it's been easier to believe for other people's healing than my own but that is changing. After all, how can I do what the Lord called me to do (a BIG vision that will impact millions...a dream He very clearly gave me and confirmed in miraculous ways) if I am physically unable to do it? My being this way does impact other people's destinies so to choose to remain passive about it is to give in to the enemy (we both know who I am talking about here) and that I refuse to do.

    Okay, so speaking of big dreams, I need to get going here...have a lot to do today.

    Thanks so much for the advice, the sharing of your own testimony (very inspiring and encouraging) and for the prayers. I will keep you posted on my progress. Do you read these posts every day? Because it might be 4 or 5 more days before I post again--keeping you apprised of my progress. In other words, how can I make sure you get my message?

    piper

    P.S. Here a few more amazing videos of God's amazing transformation in people's lives. I sent these to my daughter and she wept--just like I did.
    How can you not when you see God's grace and his power manifest so powerfully?

  9. #9
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Robert---you will have to read both of my last two posts as it got all screwed up.
    The links got separated somehow, so if you click on the links in both posts you should get them all.

    Sorry...don't know what happened there!

    piper

  10. #10
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Default

    I am on the forum every day and I receive emails when the threads I am on have new posts. So I will see when you post. Thanks for the links. I will check them out today. You will feel so much better when you can get the racquet back in hand and hit the court. It makes me feel like I have progressed so far as I really get after it when I play. No way I would have even considered it before my healing.

    We often see ourselves helping others but fail to see the same power for helping ourselves. We are often much harder on ourselves than we are others. Just like we often forgive others before we forgive ourselves. But when we are born again in Christ all things become new. It took me some time to realize that God wants only good things for me regardless of all the things I did to myself and others. That was a key to me finally experiencing the healing I did. My faith reached the level it had to be for these miracles to happen in my life like they had for others.

    For the sleep apnea you should see a sleep specialist per say. Your primary care dr or family dr should be able to recommend someone. Of course they are listed in the phone book too, but they don't list them in order of who is best. LOL It's easy to pull their credentials up online and pick the one you wish to see.

    Keep posting. It helps you and it helps others to see what we go through. I am also really interested to see how this study goes for you. And I will keep you in my prayers. You were included in our study group's closing prayers last night. Good luck and God bless.

  11. #11
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Default Thank you for praying!

    Robert,

    Thanks so much for including me in your prayers--and please thank your bible study/prayer group for praying me for me as well. It means the world to me that all of you would do that. As an intercessor, I know the power of prayer--even knowing that people care enough to pray is a tremendous morale booster to me.

    Yes and Amen on everything you said about God, our loving Father, wanting only good things for us in spite of that all-too-common tendency for us to think otherwise. I heard this wonderful podcast on the Book of Solomon (this particular teacher has devoted 10 years of his life studying this one book) that was so encouraging in that regard.

    In essence, Jesus comes to us, his beloved bride and says, "I like you, you're beautiful...now come out from behind the wall and let's go run on the hilltops together." (I believe we need to hear that Jesus actually likes us--not just "loves" us which can often sound religious and trivialized by its overuse--particularly in the context that it's often used.)

    In contrast to the above, our tendency is to think Jesus is saying to us, "Okay you've done it again...you've really screwed up and I'm not going to "use" you unless you straighten up and obey me." Yeah, like that really feels like a bridegroom talking to his bride--makes us feel so loved. (Says she sarcastically.)

    Anyway, you have to know the book of Solomon to know exactly what I'm talking about here (The Shulamite woman stayed behind the wall because of her own fears, etc.) but I think you get my drift.

    Okay, I have to get going here but before I do I just have to tell you that I'm VERY excited as last night, while driving behind my daughter to the DMV my imagination was going full force (it's always running on FULL as it is) and a fantastic screenplay idea came to me. This is not new--I've had other great screenplay ideas before but for some reason, I've shelved them. (I do make my living as a professional writer so that shelf is rather full of those discarded or "on hold" ideas.)

    Anyway, this one is so novel, so fantastically funny (if I do say so myself) that I knew that I knew that I knew it was worth fighting to getting produced.
    Along that line, I shared it with a few friends in the biz (people who are in a position to help get it produced) and they absolutely loved it!

    What's really great--the most important thing here--is that it has a wonderfully redemptive message so I can go forth with full assurance that this is a "God thing"--not yet another downer film in a world that is already filled with death and despair--not to mention perversity. (See the DVD of the film Bella and you'll get a good idea of how God can "open doors that no man can open" when it comes to getting a worthy film produced in profit-driven Hollywood.)

    But what is really exciting is I know in my heart that this is just the beginning for me. Once I get all the opiates out of my system (which keep you passive and fearful on so many levels) there will be no limits to what the Lord can do through me for His glory.

    After all, as you know, time is very, very short and all of us must be about our Father's business.

    I'll keep you informed of how the detox is going....thanks again for all your h help and encouragement.

    piper



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I am on the forum every day and I receive emails when the threads I am on have new posts. So I will see when you post. Thanks for the links. I will check them out today. You will feel so much better when you can get the racquet back in hand and hit the court. It makes me feel like I have progressed so far as I really get after it when I play. No way I would have even considered it before my healing.

    We often see ourselves helping others but fail to see the same power for helping ourselves. We are often much harder on ourselves than we are others. Just like we often forgive others before we forgive ourselves. But when we are born again in Christ all things become new. It took me some time to realize that God wants only good things for me regardless of all the things I did to myself and others. That was a key to me finally experiencing the healing I did. My faith reached the level it had to be for these miracles to happen in my life like they had for others.

    For the sleep apnea you should see a sleep specialist per say. Your primary care dr or family dr should be able to recommend someone. Of course they are listed in the phone book too, but they don't list them in order of who is best. LOL It's easy to pull their credentials up online and pick the one you wish to see.

    Keep posting. It helps you and it helps others to see what we go through. I am also really interested to see how this study goes for you. And I will keep you in my prayers. You were included in our study group's closing prayers last night. Good luck and God bless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I am on the forum every day and I receive emails when the threads I am on have new posts. So I will see when you post. Thanks for the links. I will check them out today. You will feel so much better when you can get the racquet back in hand and hit the court. It makes me feel like I have progressed so far as I really get after it when I play. No way I would have even considered it before my healing.

    We often see ourselves helping others but fail to see the same power for helping ourselves. We are often much harder on ourselves than we are others. Just like we often forgive others before we forgive ourselves. But when we are born again in Christ all things become new. It took me some time to realize that God wants only good things for me regardless of all the things I did to myself and others. That was a key to me finally experiencing the healing I did. My faith reached the level it had to be for these miracles to happen in my life like they had for others.

    For the sleep apnea you should see a sleep specialist per say. Your primary care dr or family dr should be able to recommend someone. Of course they are listed in the phone book too, but they don't list them in order of who is best. LOL It's easy to pull their credentials up online and pick the one you wish to see.

    Keep posting. It helps you and it helps others to see what we go through. I am also really interested to see how this study goes for you. And I will keep you in my prayers. You were included in our study group's closing prayers last night. Good luck and God bless.

  12. #12
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    Thanks so much for including me in your prayers--and please thank your bible study/prayer group for praying me for me as well. It means the world to me that all of you would do that. As an intercessor, I know the power of prayer--even knowing that people care enough to pray is a tremendous morale booster to me.

    Yes and Amen on everything you said about God, our loving Father, wanting only good things for us in spite of that all-too-common tendency for us to think otherwise. I heard this wonderful podcast on the Book of Solomon (this particular teacher has devoted 10 years of his life studying this one book) that was so encouraging in that regard.

    In essence, Jesus comes to us, his beloved bride and says, "I like you, you're beautiful...now come out from behind the wall and let's go run on the hilltops together." (I believe we need to hear that Jesus actually likes us--not just "loves" us which can often sound religious and trivialized by its overuse--particularly in the context that it's often used.)

    In contrast to the above, our tendency is to think Jesus is saying to us, "Okay you've done it again...you've really screwed up and I'm not going to "use" you unless you straighten up and obey me." Yeah, like that really feels like a bridegroom talking to his bride--makes us feel so loved. (Says she sarcastically.)

    Anyway, you have to know the book of Solomon to know exactly what I'm talking about here (The Shulamite woman stayed behind the wall because of her own fears, etc.) but I think you get my drift.

    Okay, I have to get going here but before I do I just have to tell you that I'm VERY excited as last night, while driving behind my daughter to the DMV my imagination was going full force (it's always running on FULL as it is) and a fantastic screenplay idea came to me. This is not new--I've had other great screenplay ideas before but for some reason, I've shelved them. (I do make my living as a professional writer so that shelf is rather full of those discarded or "on hold" ideas.)

    Anyway, this one is so novel, so fantastically funny (if I do say so myself) that I knew that I knew that I knew it was worth fighting to getting produced.
    Along that line, I shared it with a few friends in the biz (people who are in a position to help get it produced) and they absolutely loved it!

    What's really great--the most important thing here--is that it has a wonderfully redemptive message so I can go forth with full assurance that this is a "God thing"--not yet another downer film in a world that is already filled with death and despair--not to mention perversity. (See the DVD of the film Bella and you'll get a good idea of how God can "open doors that no man can open" when it comes to getting a worthy film produced in profit-driven Hollywood.)

    But what is really exciting is I know in my heart that this is just the beginning for me. Once I get all the opiates out of my system (which keep you passive and fearful on so many levels) there will be no limits to what the Lord can do through me for His glory.

    After all, as you know, time is very, very short and all of us must be about our Father's business.

    I'll keep you informed of how the detox is going....thanks again for all your h help and encouragement.

    piper


    You are referring to Chapter 8 of Solomon talking about the Shulamites if my memory serves me right. I know it's right about there anyway. I enjoy Solomon. It's a great book ... of course all of them are! But Solomon has a lot of scripture related to our being worthy of God's love. Paul also talks in Romans Chapter 6 about how all things are new when we are born again Christ and that what we were died on the cross and the new us is born in the resurrection. We are no longer living in the sin that was buried with the cross. Therefore our addiction is no more, we are born new. That is why I have a problem with the NA saying of "once an addict always an addict". No way that is true for those reborn in Jesus Christ.

    It's amazing how our creativity starts to return to us as well as our confidence as we become ourselves again and put down the drugs. Whether it's writing, art, music, sports .... we begin to excel in the things we really love when we begin to heal. I hope you do well with your new screenplay. That is exciting! We need all the works possible that share The Message regardless of what form the work comes in. I am working on establishing a new Christian based recovery program. Working on a grant right now. I feel really good about God helping me with this. Like you said, it's a God thing. I am not doing this to get rich. I have been successful in the past. However I know God bestows His blessings on us when we carry out the ministry He has laid out for us and give Him the glory. Life is short on earth. I want to try and make the most of the time remaining and make up for so many years that I wasted on the flesh. I have been a total pleasure seeker in my life. It's so cool that all of that is forgotten. I realize that the past was necessary for me to get where I am and to be able to carry the message that I carry. Things work out just as they are supposed to. Stay in touch. And you are most welcome for the prayer. That is simply doing what we are supposed to do. God bless.

  13. #13
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Default Letting go of the past....

    Robert,

    Yes, I am talking about the Shulamite woman--didn't mean to make it sound like you wouldn't know that book, but so many Christians don't seem to be that familiar with it which is why I didn't want to assume that you did.

    I agree 100% about the NA thing--confessing over and over again that you're an alcoholic or drug addict when God has both healed and saved you--making you a new creature in Christ--is not scriptural! I'm very sensitive about what I confess--especially these days when I'm believing for total restoration. I'm so sensitive that when I went to a friend's house and saw a magazine titled "Living Without" on her coffee table (it was her roommates)it literally repulsed me. (It's a magazine for people who have food allergies.) Unfortunately, that is the way she (the roommate) views her life--always focusing on what she doesn't have (easy for any of us to do) that I guess the title of this magazine seemed normal to her! To me, it would be equivalent to having the Tibetian Book of the Dead in my house!

    That's great about the Christian recovery program you're starting--there is such a need for more of those. Occasionally I watch the show Intervention on A&E and while they really do help people temporarily, without Jesus in their lives it's only a temporary fix. But of course you know that. How is yours going to work? I'd be curious to know.

    "I realize that the past was necessary for me to get where I am and to be able to carry the message that I carry". That is a very healthy way to look at your past--most people--yes, even many Christians--have a hard time overcoming their past failure, injustices, abuses, etc. But, as Joyce Meyer says, "You can't let your past determine your future."

    The only way I can overcome my past is to "take captive every thought and every vain imagination that tries to exalt itself against the knowledge of God." Because that is where depression begins--in the thought life.

    RE: My detox. I still haven't heard from the FDA doctor so I'm going to call him tomorrow and see if he talked to my doctor. I've decided to start next Monday and NOT take the Vicodin to help me with the withdrawal. Since I took such a low dose (comparatively) of methadone (25 mgs. p/day) I'm told my withdrawal should be "fast but hard". Of course, I can believe they won't be "hard" which is exactly what I'm going to do. Anyway, on the third day, they will switch me over to the Suboxone. After that, I intend to be on it no more than 30 days so I can be opiate free--once and for all.

    I'll let you know the day I start for sure. Thanks again for all your encouragement and prayers!

    piper




    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    You are referring to Chapter 8 of Solomon talking about the Shulamites if my memory serves me right. I know it's right about there anyway. I enjoy Solomon. It's a great book ... of course all of them are! But Solomon has a lot of scripture related to our being worthy of God's love. Paul also talks in Romans Chapter 6 about how all things are new when we are born again Christ and that what we were died on the cross and the new us is born in the resurrection. We are no longer living in the sin that was buried with the cross. Therefore our addiction is no more, we are born new. That is why I have a problem with the NA saying of "once an addict always an addict". No way that is true for those reborn in Jesus Christ.

    It's amazing how our creativity starts to return to us as well as our confidence as we become ourselves again and put down the drugs. Whether it's writing, art, music, sports .... we begin to excel in the things we really love when we begin to heal. I hope you do well with your new screenplay. That is exciting! We need all the works possible that share The Message regardless of what form the work comes in. I am working on establishing a new Christian based recovery program. Working on a grant right now. I feel really good about God helping me with this. Like you said, it's a God thing. I am not doing this to get rich. I have been successful in the past. However I know God bestows His blessings on us when we carry out the ministry He has laid out for us and give Him the glory. Life is short on earth. I want to try and make the most of the time remaining and make up for so many years that I wasted on the flesh. I have been a total pleasure seeker in my life. It's so cool that all of that is forgotten. I realize that the past was necessary for me to get where I am and to be able to carry the message that I carry. Things work out just as they are supposed to. Stay in touch. And you are most welcome for the prayer. That is simply doing what we are supposed to do. God bless.

  14. #14
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    Yes, I am talking about the Shulamite woman--didn't mean to make it sound like you wouldn't know that book, but so many Christians don't seem to be that familiar with it which is why I didn't want to assume that you did.

    I agree 100% about the NA thing--confessing over and over again that you're an alcoholic or drug addict when God has both healed and saved you--making you a new creature in Christ--is not scriptural! I'm very sensitive about what I confess--especially these days when I'm believing for total restoration. I'm so sensitive that when I went to a friend's house and saw a magazine titled "Living Without" on her coffee table (it was her roommates)it literally repulsed me. (It's a magazine for people who have food allergies.) Unfortunately, that is the way she (the roommate) views her life--always focusing on what she doesn't have (easy for any of us to do) that I guess the title of this magazine seemed normal to her! To me, it would be equivalent to having the Tibetian Book of the Dead in my house!

    That's great about the Christian recovery program you're starting--there is such a need for more of those. Occasionally I watch the show Intervention on A&E and while they really do help people temporarily, without Jesus in their lives it's only a temporary fix. But of course you know that. How is yours going to work? I'd be curious to know.

    "I realize that the past was necessary for me to get where I am and to be able to carry the message that I carry". That is a very healthy way to look at your past--most people--yes, even many Christians--have a hard time overcoming their past failure, injustices, abuses, etc. But, as Joyce Meyer says, "You can't let your past determine your future."

    The only way I can overcome my past is to "take captive every thought and every vain imagination that tries to exalt itself against the knowledge of God." Because that is where depression begins--in the thought life.

    RE: My detox. I still haven't heard from the FDA doctor so I'm going to call him tomorrow and see if he talked to my doctor. I've decided to start next Monday and NOT take the Vicodin to help me with the withdrawal. Since I took such a low dose (comparatively) of methadone (25 mgs. p/day) I'm told my withdrawal should be "fast but hard". Of course, I can believe they won't be "hard" which is exactly what I'm going to do. Anyway, on the third day, they will switch me over to the Suboxone. After that, I intend to be on it no more than 30 days so I can be opiate free--once and for all.

    I'll let you know the day I start for sure. Thanks again for all your encouragement and prayers!

    piper


    I don't know all the books of the Bible as well as I want to know them but I am trying. I just happen to have studied the Song of Solomon some fairly recently. It takes so long to do it properly. The Bible is definitely not fast reading if we want to comprehend what we are looking at. Of course it's not a speed contest anyway. LOL I so agree with focusing on what we have rather than the negative side ... the "glass-half-empty" state of mind. It's difficult to ever get anywhere doing anything with that attitude. That's just basic goal setting whether one is a Christian or not. I never understood how people could exist like that. It must be really miserable to live that way.

    As far as the recovery program goes, we will be working with drug/alcohol dependent individuals, those recently released from the Texas prison system (parolees) and those serving probated sentences. Of course those from the court system will have a history of dependencies. It will be set up like an after-care program in the beginning. We plan on growing into a short-term housing unit (3-6 months) as we progress. That will depend mostly on our available funding and community support. It takes more staff and such for a 24 hour operation. Funding is easier to obtain for growth purposes than for start ups. It takes time to get others to even know about you let alone to develop a reputation for having success. That will have to be my primary focus in the very beginning ... to establish ongoing working relationships with hospitals, probation/parole officials, etc.

    I worked for some time with NA being involved at the area level on the Public Information sub-committee as Vice Chair, also worked in Hospitals and Institutions sub-committees here. So I know some key people in local hospitals, rehabs and the court system in Texas already. I spoke regularly in several hospitals and jails as well. My contacts will help us I am confident.

    Christian based recovery programs normally use a program similar to that of traditional recovery. We just focus on God. We don't use the "Higher Power" approach of traditional recovery or I should say that God is interjected in place of the term Higher Power. But it is still an approach that is similar to the standard 12-Steps. We do teach that all things are possible through Christ including overcoming addiction/dependency. We don't have to remain "addicts" or "alcoholics" forever as is stressed in NA/AA. When we are born again in Christ all things, including us, become new just as the scriptures say. It's very simple. So there is that main difference and other related differences in the approach to recovery with Christian principles. It's a very simple and natural transition. And it makes so much more sense to me anyway.

    Glad you decided to not take vicodin to prepare for the suboxone therapy. Your methadone dose is low enough that I don't think you will have the difficulty that lots of people have coming off methadone. You have a good attitude about doing this. They say you need at least 36 hours between the last methadone dose and the first suboxone dose, but three days is better. You will have definite W/D symptoms then, but not for a long time. You will be amazed by how quickly the symptoms disappear with taking the first dose of suboxone. It's like flipping a switch ... or it was to me at least. If you want to do it for 30 days that is perfect as your methadone detox will be over by then and it's just a matter of a quick taper then from the suboxone. It will be next to nothing taking the suboxone for only 30 days. Let me know how it goes with the drs and when you actually start the suboxone for sure. And you will continue to be in our prayers here. Good luck and God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 05-28-2008 at 01:24 AM.

  15. #15
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Robert,

    Yeah, positive people are the only kind of people I can afford to be around--at least for now. I think we can allow ourselves a limited exposure to negative people as long as you feel you are influencing them more than they are influencing you; however, my experience has shown that it rarely works that way.

    Your Christian recovery program sounds wonderful--especially your vision and the way you are structuring it. Too many of those "Christian" programs simply mimic the world's approach. Interestingly, my 87-year-old father has a foundation called ICEP (Inmate Correctional Educational Project) that works in getting grants to help educate inmates--both in prison and outside prison. Specifically, he works with the inmates who are mothers. I will have to get the info from him about what he does exactly but I know he has achieved quite a bit in terms of implementing post-release programs for these moms.

    His focus has not been on the spiritual, though about a year ago I introduced him to a woman who does have a faith-based prison ministry-it has been HUGELY successful because the women do most of the work of getting whole themselves--using a peer-to-peer network of mutual support, etc. She's even got the White House involved in supporting what she does. That's because she has gotten amazing results. Check it out for yourself.

    http://welcomehomeint.com/Welcome-Home.php[/URL]

    RE: My detox. After all this going round and round in my head about the best way to do this (based on reading conflicting posts on several boards that specialize in suboxone and methadone) I've learned one thing and that is the more I ask questions, the more I am learning how individual this whole methadone to suboxone detox/induction thing is for people.

    That being said, I've pretty much decided that I have to go with the plan that produces the least amount of anxiety as possible for me. And, to be honest the 3.5-day cold turkey plan without methadone (I was taking 25 mg.p/day pills for 10 months) does give me a LOT of anxiety. (Based on my past HELLISH experience at trying this.)

    So, I'm going to try something else. As of this morning, I stopped taking methadone and switched to the 7.5/750 of Vicodin 5x p/day. I know several people are advocating two weeks of vicodin to replace the methadone, then waiting 12-14 hours before getting inducted to Sub.

    I could go that route, but I'm asking them (former methadone users who've switched to Sub) why couldn't I take Vicodin for 5 days to replace the methadone (vs. 2 weeks), then go for 24 hours without Vicodin and then switch to Sub?

    In other words, why does it have to be two weeks of taking Vicodin before one can make the switch to Sub? After five days of no methadone, wouldn't that be enough time for MOST of it to have left my body

    I've been told that though vicodin and methadone are both opiates, they cover different receptors. If this is true then I would think 5 days of going without methadone--even though I switched to the dose equivalency of Vicodin--would be long enough for me to feel safe in switching to Sub. (As long as I wait 12-24 hours without Vicodin before doing so.)

    I'm still waiting for some "expert" advice on this--until that time, I've already stopped taking the methadone and switched to vicodin.

    Piper




    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I don't know all the books of the Bible as well as I want to know them but I am trying. I just happen to have studied the Song of Solomon some fairly recently. It takes so long to do it properly. The Bible is definitely not fast reading if we want to comprehend what we are looking at. Of course it's not a speed contest anyway. LOL I so agree with focusing on what we have rather than the negative side ... the "glass-half-empty" state of mind. It's difficult to ever get anywhere doing anything with that attitude. That's just basic goal setting whether one is a Christian or not. I never understood how people could exist like that. It must be really miserable to live that way.

    As far as the recovery program goes, we will be working with drug/alcohol dependent individuals, those recently released from the Texas prison system (parolees) and those serving probated sentences. Of course those from the court system will have a history of dependencies. It will be set up like an after-care program in the beginning. We plan on growing into a short-term housing unit (3-6 months) as we progress. That will depend mostly on our available funding and community support. It takes more staff and such for a 24 hour operation. Funding is easier to obtain for growth purposes than for start ups. It takes time to get others to even know about you let alone to develop a reputation for having success. That will have to be my primary focus in the very beginning ... to establish ongoing working relationships with hospitals, probation/parole officials, etc.

    I worked for some time with NA being involved at the area level on the Public Information sub-committee as Vice Chair, also worked in Hospitals and Institutions sub-committees here. So I know some key people in local hospitals, rehabs and the court system in Texas already. I spoke regularly in several hospitals and jails as well. My contacts will help us I am confident.

    Christian based recovery programs normally use a program similar to that of traditional recovery. We just focus on God. We don't use the "Higher Power" approach of traditional recovery or I should say that God is interjected in place of the term Higher Power. But it is still an approach that is similar to the standard 12-Steps. We do teach that all things are possible through Christ including overcoming addiction/dependency. We don't have to remain "addicts" or "alcoholics" forever as is stressed in NA/AA. When we are born again in Christ all things, including us, become new just as the scriptures say. It's very simple. So there is that main difference and other related differences in the approach to recovery with Christian principles. It's a very simple and natural transition. And it makes so much more sense to me anyway.

    Glad you decided to not take vicodin to prepare for the suboxone therapy. Your methadone dose is low enough that I don't think you will have the difficulty that lots of people have coming off methadone. You have a good attitude about doing this. They say you need at least 36 hours between the last methadone dose and the first suboxone dose, but three days is better. You will have definite W/D symptoms then, but not for a long time. You will be amazed by how quickly the symptoms disappear with taking the first dose of suboxone. It's like flipping a switch ... or it was to me at least. If you want to do it for 30 days that is perfect as your methadone detox will be over by then and it's just a matter of a quick taper then from the suboxone. It will be next to nothing taking the suboxone for only 30 days. Let me know how it goes with the drs and when you actually start the suboxone for sure. And you will continue to be in our prayers here. Good luck and God bless.

  16. #16
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    Hey Robert,

    Re: What I just posted about my new plan to detox off the methadone. A pharmacist who specializes in pain meds, etc., just told me that waiting two weeks was right on. My sister, who is also a pharmacist (and a Christian), just researched it a bit and told me what he said was right.

    The science of it is this: methadone has a 36-hour half life and it takes 5 half lives (approximately) to get out of your system. Therefore 5 days would not of being off methadone (while using vicodin) would not be enough. A

    Anyway, after two weeks, I would wait 12-14 hours, then they should induct me using Subutex for 1 week, then switch to Suboxone. Again, this is according to this pharmacist who specializes in pain meds.

    So, getting this word from an expert, I feel a LOT better going this route! The FDA doc may have another agenda (as in getting me into this study as quickly as possible) and therefore was hesitant to agree with my proposal to wait 2 weeks before switching over to Sub. But, since most of these doctors have never gone through withdrawal themselves, they really don't know what a difficult thing they are asking when they ask a patient, study participant--what have you-to go cold turkey off these meds. This is especially true of methadone, which, someone said, "likes to linger".

    I believe that's interesting phrasing on his part. "Likes to linger" makes it almost sound as if these opiates have personalities--likes and dislikes. If you consider that opiates serve as gateway for demon activity, then that's not an overstatement. After all, the Greek root word for pharmaceutical is the same root word for "witchcraft"--or so I've been told!~

    piper

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Hey Robert,

    Re: What I just posted about my new plan to detox off the methadone. A pharmacist who specializes in pain meds, etc., just told me that waiting two weeks was right on. My sister, who is also a pharmacist (and a Christian), just researched it a bit and told me what he said was right.

    The science of it is this: methadone has a 36-hour half life and it takes 5 half lives (approximately) to get out of your system. Therefore 5 days would not of being off methadone (while using vicodin) would not be enough. A

    Anyway, after two weeks, I would wait 12-14 hours, then they should induct me using Subutex for 1 week, then switch to Suboxone. Again, this is according to this pharmacist who specializes in pain meds.

    So, getting this word from an expert, I feel a LOT better going this route! The FDA doc may have another agenda (as in getting me into this study as quickly as possible) and therefore was hesitant to agree with my proposal to wait 2 weeks before switching over to Sub. But, since most of these doctors have never gone through withdrawal themselves, they really don't know what a difficult thing they are asking when they ask a patient, study participant--what have you-to go cold turkey off these meds. This is especially true of methadone, which, someone said, "likes to linger".

    I believe that's interesting phrasing on his part. "Likes to linger" makes it almost sound as if these opiates have personalities--likes and dislikes. If you consider that opiates serve as gateway for demon activity, then that's not an overstatement. After all, the Greek root word for pharmaceutical is the same root word for "witchcraft"--or so I've been told!~

    piper


    Methadone does have one of the very longest half lifes of all opiates. You know ... it really doesn't matter what process we go through to get clean. I would never tell someone they are doing it wrong. Hell, I did it wrong for years, that's why I continued to relapse! As long as we continue to do something towards getting to the finish line, I think that's all that matters. So good luck in the process you are following. I know you will be successful. You obviously want it badly. That is what counts the most. Just ask God to help you which I know you will and He will do.

    It's really interesting that your father is involved in the process of working with recently released inmates. I would be VERY interested in learning more about his foundation ... maybe even speaking with him if he would talk to me should it come to that. Is your dad John Keast by chance??? If he is I have heard of him. I know Mr Keast is about that age. Please let me know more as you find out any new information. I contend that when things like this happen it's a God thing. My partner and I both decided independently of each other to begin this program prior to ever talking to each other about it. We just happened to talk one day and realized we both had the same goal. So we joined forces. That was a God thing. God brings people into our lives so that we can help and impact one another. Your father could be a very important person in this if he could enlighten us on anything that we could be missing. I would deeply appreciate anything he might share with us that could help. Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.

    Keep me posted how you are doing with the Vics. It doesn't matter if you are totally clean next week or in a month as long as you are working towards that goal as you are comfortable. You will get there. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 05-30-2008 at 05:50 PM.

  18. #18
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Default My father's foundation, etc.

    Robert,

    Well, yeah as a matter of fact my father's name is John Keast. I just spoke to him and he said it's okay for to e-mail him. He'll give you whatever advice/info that you need. I don't really feel comfortable giving out his phone number which I'm sure you can understand.

    He is also 87 so please keep that in mind. It might take him awhile to answer your e-mail so don't think he's ignoring you. If you e-mail him and he doesn't respond within a week or so, let me know and I will call his attention to your e-mail.

    Anyway, here's his e-mail: johnnykeast@sbcglobal.net

    Just make sure you put "Robert from Texas who knows your daughter" or some such thing in the subject line of your e-mail. By the way, "piper" is not my real name--it's a pseudonym I use because I don't want to take the chance that my real name is ever found on Google associated with these posts!

    RE: Detox. I'm now on my third day off of methadone. The Vicodin helps tremendously, though I still have pain. I'll be on the Vicodin for 10 days--and since it takes about 10 days for MOST of the methadone to leave one's system that should be a good time to stop the Vicodin for 14 hours, then make the switch to Suboxone. After that, it's 30 days on the Sub, then goodbye opiates forever. Guess I should have gone to church this morning but I just didn't feel well enough to go through all the motions--getting dressed up, driving, sitting, etc.

    Let me know how it works out with my father. It could very well be a "God thing"--I mean, really--what are the chances?




    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Methadone does have one of the very longest half lifes of all opiates. You know ... it really doesn't matter what process we go through to get clean. I would never tell someone they are doing it wrong. Hell, I did it wrong for years, that's why I continued to relapse! As long as we continue to do something towards getting to the finish line, I think that's all that matters. So good luck in the process you are following. I know you will be successful. You obviously want it badly. That is what counts the most. Just ask God to help you which I know you will and He will do.

    It's really interesting that your father is involved in the process of working with recently released inmates. I would be VERY interested in learning more about his foundation ... maybe even speaking with him if he would talk to me should it come to that. Is your dad John Keast by chance??? If he is I have heard of him. I know Mr Keast is about that age. Please let me know more as you find out any new information. I contend that when things like this happen it's a God thing. My partner and I both decided independently of each other to begin this program prior to ever talking to each other about it. We just happened to talk one day and realized we both had the same goal. So we joined forces. That was a God thing. God brings people into our lives so that we can help and impact one another. Your father could be a very important person in this if he could enlighten us on anything that we could be missing. I would deeply appreciate anything he might share with us that could help. Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.

    Keep me posted how you are doing with the Vics. It doesn't matter if you are totally clean next week or in a month as long as you are working towards that goal as you are comfortable. You will get there. God bless.

  19. #19
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    Well, yeah as a matter of fact my father's name is John Keast. I just spoke to him and he said it's okay for to e-mail him. He'll give you whatever advice/info that you need. I don't really feel comfortable giving out his phone number which I'm sure you can understand.

    He is also 87 so please keep that in mind. It might take him awhile to answer your e-mail so don't think he's ignoring you. If you e-mail him and he doesn't respond within a week or so, let me know and I will call his attention to your e-mail.

    Anyway, here's his e-mail: johnnykeast@sbcglobal.net

    Just make sure you put "Robert from Texas who knows your daughter" or some such thing in the subject line of your e-mail. By the way, "piper" is not my real name--it's a pseudonym I use because I don't want to take the chance that my real name is ever found on Google associated with these posts!

    RE: Detox. I'm now on my third day off of methadone. The Vicodin helps tremendously, though I still have pain. I'll be on the Vicodin for 10 days--and since it takes about 10 days for MOST of the methadone to leave one's system that should be a good time to stop the Vicodin for 14 hours, then make the switch to Suboxone. After that, it's 30 days on the Sub, then goodbye opiates forever. Guess I should have gone to church this morning but I just didn't feel well enough to go through all the motions--getting dressed up, driving, sitting, etc.

    Let me know how it works out with my father. It could very well be a "God thing"--I mean, really--what are the chances?


    Please thank your father for me and I thank you. It's more than coincidence that this has happened. I know that. It is a God thing. I don't believe in mere coincidence much in my life today. There is a reason for most things that happen. At least I believe there is. I became aware of your father when I was doing some research on people who have been involved with programs for prisoners re-entering society. Obviously your dad's name would come up in a search like that. I saw some newpaper articles written about him. Then I read a little more. I never suspected this would come up on drugs.com. This is so cool! It's unusual for someone that age to be doing the things he has done. When you mentioned his age something told me this had to be him. How many people could there be that age who could be so prominent in such a specific field??? I was very impressed with the things that your dad has done. I'm sure you are proud of him. I will definitely email him. I totally understand about the phone number. If it should come to talking with him in person the number would come from him. And I will not hound him I assure you. I will treat him with the respect he should be shown. Again, thanks for your help.

    I am very interested to see how your detox works out the way you are doing it. I bet you have very little discomfort. I don't doubt that you have some pain as most of us who become dependent to opiates began using them because of illness or injury. So our pain was real. But when we finish detox we usually find that the pain is not as bad as what we remember. Detoxing itself is a painful process. So a little pain is to be expected. But I believe your's will be minimal. Just remember that only a small dose of Suboxone is required. It's not like pain meds where the more we take the better it works. The ceiling on Suboxone is not much. Taking more than the ceiling just makes it harder to stop. It doesn't really help us at all.

    I will let you know how it goes with your dad. I will email him tomorrow. Then I will just wait for his response. I'm sure he has other things to do as well. Thanks again for your help. I am anxious to hear what he has to say. I know he can shed light on some things that can help me. I will talk to you again soon.

  20. #20
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Robert,

    I am glad to be of help. If I seem to be downplaying the "God thing", it's because of past experiences that have caused me to be, well--cautious.
    Certainly my finding out about Welcome Home Ministries and the amazing woman of God who runs it was not a coincidence. Not a day goes by where my father doesn't thank me for introducing me to her.

    Having said that I guess I've had too many disappointments in life to get excited about very much, but I believe that the opiates are partly to blame for that malady in that they have caused me to feel detached from life for many years. This is the main reason I am determined to get off of them because they have been very detrimental to my spiritual life....not to mention the guilt over taking them for so long--yes, even though I started on them for legitimate physical pain.

    Anyway, I truly pray that my father can be of help to you. I'm sure he'll be interested in what you are doing as well. He was very surprised that you knew who he was!

    In terms of my detox, I fully expect that the pain will decrease the closer I get to the 10-day mark. I did have to take a Zanax today because I was hit with an anxiety attack where I felt I could hardly breathe. I wasn't surprised by that as that happened when I tried to go cold turkey off the methadone--and right around the 3t and 4th day so I think that's a common symptom of withdrawal. What a hold these opiates have on people--they really are demonic.

    As far as the Suboxone goes, the parameters of this FDA study won't allow me to take less than 8 mg. If I had my way, I'd take 2-4 mg. but I don't think I can get away with that without them knowing via a blood test. Someone suggested I spit the granules out, thereby ingesting a lower dose.
    But hopefully if I'm only on Suboxone for a month that won't be long enough to get addicted to it. Do you think that's true? Because if I thought it was, I would definitely "cheat" if I had to to, and spit the granules out after putting the dose they give me under my tongue.

    Maybe that wouldn't be entirely ethical, but how ethical is it for them to get me hooked on yet another opiate--especially when the whole point of the study is to get people off of opiates once and for all?





    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Please thank your father for me and I thank you. It's more than coincidence that this has happened. I know that. It is a God thing. I don't believe in mere coincidence much in my life today. There is a reason for most things that happen. At least I believe there is. I became aware of your father when I was doing some research on people who have been involved with programs for prisoners re-entering society. Obviously your dad's name would come up in a search like that. I saw some newpaper articles written about him. Then I read a little more. I never suspected this would come up on drugs.com. This is so cool! It's unusual for someone that age to be doing the things he has done. When you mentioned his age something told me this had to be him. How many people could there be that age who could be so prominent in such a specific field??? I was very impressed with the things that your dad has done. I'm sure you are proud of him. I will definitely email him. I totally understand about the phone number. If it should come to talking with him in person the number would come from him. And I will not hound him I assure you. I will treat him with the respect he should be shown. Again, thanks for your help.

    I am very interested to see how your detox works out the way you are doing it. I bet you have very little discomfort. I don't doubt that you have some pain as most of us who become dependent to opiates began using them because of illness or injury. So our pain was real. But when we finish detox we usually find that the pain is not as bad as what we remember. Detoxing itself is a painful process. So a little pain is to be expected. But I believe your's will be minimal. Just remember that only a small dose of Suboxone is required. It's not like pain meds where the more we take the better it works. The ceiling on Suboxone is not much. Taking more than the ceiling just makes it harder to stop. It doesn't really help us at all.

    I will let you know how it goes with your dad. I will email him tomorrow. Then I will just wait for his response. I'm sure he has other things to do as well. Thanks again for your help. I am anxious to hear what he has to say. I know he can shed light on some things that can help me. I will talk to you again soon.

  21. #21
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    I am glad to be of help. If I seem to be downplaying the "God thing", it's because of past experiences that have caused me to be, well--cautious.
    Certainly my finding out about Welcome Home Ministries and the amazing woman of God who runs it was not a coincidence. Not a day goes by where my father doesn't thank me for introducing me to her.

    Having said that I guess I've had too many disappointments in life to get excited about very much, but I believe that the opiates are partly to blame for that malady in that they have caused me to feel detached from life for many years. This is the main reason I am determined to get off of them because they have been very detrimental to my spiritual life....not to mention the guilt over taking them for so long--yes, even though I started on them for legitimate physical pain.

    Anyway, I truly pray that my father can be of help to you. I'm sure he'll be interested in what you are doing as well. He was very surprised that you knew who he was!

    In terms of my detox, I fully expect that the pain will decrease the closer I get to the 10-day mark. I did have to take a Zanax today because I was hit with an anxiety attack where I felt I could hardly breathe. I wasn't surprised by that as that happened when I tried to go cold turkey off the methadone--and right around the 3t and 4th day so I think that's a common symptom of withdrawal. What a hold these opiates have on people--they really are demonic.

    As far as the Suboxone goes, the parameters of this FDA study won't allow me to take less than 8 mg. If I had my way, I'd take 2-4 mg. but I don't think I can get away with that without them knowing via a blood test. Someone suggested I spit the granules out, thereby ingesting a lower dose.
    But hopefully if I'm only on Suboxone for a month that won't be long enough to get addicted to it. Do you think that's true? Because if I thought it was, I would definitely "cheat" if I had to to, and spit the granules out after putting the dose they give me under my tongue.

    Maybe that wouldn't be entirely ethical, but how ethical is it for them to get me hooked on yet another opiate--especially when the whole point of the study is to get people off of opiates once and for all?

    It is definitely common for opiates and other drugs to detach us from life in general, specifically being detrimental to our spiritual growth. They destroy so many good and positive attributes. It just goes with the "demonic" nature of the beast as you kind of said. It took some time following my final detox to be comfortable with approaching God as I really didn't feel He would want anything to do with someone like me. That was obviously the devil working on my spiritual being. As we have discussed God was not happy with me, but He never turned His back on me and was just waiting for me to make an effort. He was there all along. I just didn't realize that He always wanted the same good things for me as He wanted for others. This state of mind continues to improve the longer we are clean and working at making our relationship with God stronger.

    Being on a dose of 8mg of Suboxone is fine. When I started Subutex I was in horrific W/D. It was the third day so I was awful. I did 12mg the first two days, was stabilized, then reduced to 8mg. I remained at that dose for three weeks. By then I was well past any opiate W/Ds and then began a taper. That is the main thing ... being when you begin to stop you will need to reduce that 8mg dose. It's too high of a dose to stop from. The way you are doing this, I would begin to taper ten days prior to stopping completely.

    I would recommend you take 4mg in the am, 4mg in the pm. Makes it easier when you begin the taper. I will explain. What I did was take my 4mg in the morning and start reducing the pm dose. That kept it from affecting my sleep negatively. I reduced by 2mg first for about 2 days. Then I reduced the am dose by 2mg for 2 days. This was easy knocking off that first 4mg. Then I reduced the am dose by 1mg for 2 days, then the pm dose for 2 days. Once I was at 2mg total I changed up some. I stopped the pm dose entirely one day, then if I needed it I would take 2mg again the next day. If I didn't need it, I would skip that dose for two days, then go ahead and take 2mg the next day. The goal was to eliminate the entire pm dose asap but do it with no pain. Then I would skip the 1mg in the am entirely for one day, then take it the next. Then skip it two days, then take it the next. Then skip it for three days, then take it the next. This is where I stopped at entirely. By allowing the three days to go by, I had allowed the half life to kind of catch up with itself. I had zero problems stopping like this. I have made this same suggestion to a few others who have done it also and they had no problems either so I know this works for the majority of people ... everyone in fact that I know who has followed this regimen. In fact two of the people I have helped with this stopped a little before I recommended as they thought this process was a little slow. But one of them had some tummy issues when they did it too fast. There is no hurry with this. The main thing is to be comfortable. Otherwise we would just do the cold turkey and be done with it.

    You won't have any trouble with using the Suboxone I don't think. Just remember it's only for a month and do the taper when you stop. Then you won't have to suffer at all. Will talk soon. And I will email your dad later today. I just want to organize my thoughts a little first.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 06-02-2008 at 09:26 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Hey everyone,

    Anyone know what happens to your sleep patterns when on Sub? As some of you know, I'm starting a methadone detox (using Vicodin to help with withdrawal pain) on Saturday, then after 4-5 days off of methadone, will wait another 12-18 hours, then get switched over to Suboxone courtesy of the FDA. (FDA study at major university.)

    One of the many reasons I've chosen to get off of methadone is that since using it (for chronic pain) I developed sleep apnea. I didn't even know I had it. I thought all those symptoms I was having were a direct result of methadone use--including the heavy snoring. Then I had a friend spend the night on the couch in my bedroom and she said she was very alarmed because she thought I was going to die as apparently I stopped breathing in my sleep for a few seconds right after a strange bout of heavy (and I'm sure unattractive) snoring. She was about to wake me up, but my breathing resumed so she didn't.

    I sort of dismissed it, but then this morning I read a post from a woman whose husband, while on methadone, had the all the same symptoms: chronic fatigue, nodding off, obsessive dreaming, loud snoring, falling asleep while driving (very scary for me as it happens to me every time I get on the freeway), and loss of memory and concentration. I never connected all this to sleep apnea--frankly, I didn't even know what sleep apnea was really.

    Anyway, what I want to know is what are the side effects of suboxone in relationship to any sleeping disorders? Please tell me that sub doesn't have sleep apnea as a possible side effect!

    Thanks for any info/experiences anyone can share on this subject.

    piper

    P.S. My goal is to be off of sub in 30 days so I will be opiate free--if I can handle the underlying chronic pain that caused me to take opiates in the first place. (Starting five years ago.)
    Suboxone has an opiate quality,which keeps you awake.I am a med. student,and after 2 years,it is far time to get off.Suboxone is wonderful for short term use,but it will keep you awake.Please consider it as a Tool,and a good tool,butthink about eventually getting off.For 2 years now ,I have tried,and have been ubsyccessful on only 8 m.I mut titrate slowly.I now am giving myself,one ,long and slow,year.Thank you.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavi View Post
    Suboxone has an opiate quality,which keeps you awake.I am a med. student,and after 2 years,it is far time to get off.Suboxone is wonderful for short term use,but it will keep you awake.Please consider it as a Tool,and a good tool,butthink about eventually getting off.For 2 years now ,I have tried,and have been ubsyccessful on only 8 m.I mut titrate slowly.I now am giving myself,one ,long and slow,year.Thank you.

    Gavi ... I agree that two years is PAST time to stop using the Suboxone unless doing it for a maintenance dose. But piper is only going to use it for 30 days. Lots of people use Suboxone for 30 days, me included, and have no problems whatsoever. On a short term regimen, and not taking it at bedtime, one should not have trouble with sleep or with stopping the use of Suboxone. You should reduce your dose by 2mg a month for 2-3 months, then reduce it by 1mg a month for the remaining time necessary to stop. This will allow for the half life and give your receptors time to adjust. Good luck.

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    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Default Methdone stays in system for months?

    Robert,

    Pursuant to what Gavi--and you--just said, what do you think of what this guy (on another board) said Because now it makes me wonder if what he says is true--will the methadone withdrawals come back even after a month on Suboxone?

    "One thing I'd like to add is about the methadone. I've been off and on methadone since 1978. The highest I was on was 140mg.

    Methadone, like we said, likes to linger. So keep in mind, that after only one month, it may still be effecting you natural endorphin production.

    When I detoxed off the 140mg, I did it cold turkey, for four months. I couldn't sleep, could hardly eat, was very depressed and had the worst nightmares of my entire life. I couldn't take it anymore, and got on Suboxone, which I stayed on for 12 months. 16 months of methadone.

    If you stay on Suboxone for a month, and quit, it is possible the methadone w/d's may come back, because of the fact it takes a long time to detox from methadone. IMO, I would stay on Suboxone for at least 3 - 4 months, if that is possible. I stayed on for 12 months, I am off now, but I am sleeping well, eating well and am still very active.

    My friend took a Suboxone (8mg) and was on 40mg of methadone (the diskets, before Jan 1, 2008). It sent him straight to the ER. They gave him 20 10mg methadone tabs, he took a few and it overcame the Suboxone. Then he tried it again. He went on a short acting opiate for about two weeks, then switched to Suboxone. This time he had no problem. He's been on Sub for around 5 months and is doing sort of good, he likes to do something that will really take his pain away. Oh Well, a half of a success is better than no success."


    Doug




    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    Gavi ... I agree that two years is PAST time to stop using the Suboxone unless doing it for a maintenance dose. But piper is only going to use it for 30 days. Lots of people use Suboxone for 30 days, me included, and have no problems whatsoever. On a short term regimen, and not taking it at bedtime, one should not have trouble with sleep or with stopping the use of Suboxone. You should reduce your dose by 2mg a month for 2-3 months, then reduce it by 1mg a month for the remaining time necessary to stop. This will allow for the half life and give your receptors time to adjust. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    Pursuant to what Gavi--and you--just said, what do you think of what this guy (on another board) said Because now it makes me wonder if what he says is true--will the methadone withdrawals come back even after a month on Suboxone?

    "One thing I'd like to add is about the methadone. I've been off and on methadone since 1978. The highest I was on was 140mg.

    Methadone, like we said, likes to linger. So keep in mind, that after only one month, it may still be effecting you natural endorphin production.

    When I detoxed off the 140mg, I did it cold turkey, for four months. I couldn't sleep, could hardly eat, was very depressed and had the worst nightmares of my entire life. I couldn't take it anymore, and got on Suboxone, which I stayed on for 12 months. 16 months of methadone.

    If you stay on Suboxone for a month, and quit, it is possible the methadone w/d's may come back, because of the fact it takes a long time to detox from methadone. IMO, I would stay on Suboxone for at least 3 - 4 months, if that is possible. I stayed on for 12 months, I am off now, but I am sleeping well, eating well and am still very active.

    My friend took a Suboxone (8mg) and was on 40mg of methadone (the diskets, before Jan 1, 2008). It sent him straight to the ER. They gave him 20 10mg methadone tabs, he took a few and it overcame the Suboxone. Then he tried it again. He went on a short acting opiate for about two weeks, then switched to Suboxone. This time he had no problem. He's been on Sub for around 5 months and is doing sort of good, he likes to do something that will really take his pain away. Oh Well, a half of a success is better than no success."


    Doug



    I think that one critical factor here is obvious ... that Doug was using methadone since 1978. LOL That is a long time. He was also taking a significantly higher dose than you. I don't recall how long you used methadone but I don't think it was anything like this guy. Am I wrong??? And as I recall you are on a minimal dose of methadone. In fact you were at the same dose that is recommended for one to be at to make the switch directly from methadone to suboxone ... 25-30mg if I remember correctly. According to what the doctors say, you shouldn't have even had to switch to vics prior to making the switch to suboxone. You should have been okay without even messing with the vics. Not saying you shouldn't have done it like you did, just emphasizing the fact that our individual circumstances are the main factor with how we do this and what the results are. You can only listen so much to other people's stories. They will drive you crazy with false anticipation.

    No way that I would say you couldn't have W/D symptoms come back after the month you spend on suboxone. Anything is possible. But I would be very surprised, in fact shocked if it happened considering the amount of methadone you were taking and the time involved. It just doesn't make any sense to me that this would happen to you. And Gavi was having problems with W/D symptoms from the suboxone because he had been taking it for two years. We have all heard the horror stories from people who used suboxone for a long time. But if you were going to have horrific W/D symptoms from the methadone I believe that you would be experiencing them right now. Think about it realistically. Vicodin is nothing compared to methadone. You are going through the detox from methadone as we speak. That is why you decided to use the Vics for two weeks, to allow for the methadone half life and everything involved. If you aren't having problems now, then it makes no sense that you would suddenly start having problems 45 days down the road from now.

    Let's look at the lingering effects of methadone ... say in comparison to having PAWS that come back at like 30 day intervals after detox. With PAWS we still go through detox and have bad W/D symptoms. We don't have a symptom-free opiate detox and then suddenly have PAWS appear from nowhere a month later. It's a repeat of the W/D-type symptoms. I had PAWS a couple times. It was a huge drag. But I went through bad W/Ds in detox too. I am not saying that you won't have any cravings of any kind. You probably will. Most all of us have them. But having PAWS or similar symptoms like Doug or Gavi were talking about is something all together different.

    You will be fine. Don't worry about all this. You are taking so many steps to protect yourself that I don't see you having a hard time at all. Like I said, you will likely have cravings, you may even have using dreams, but I will be blown away if you have any really bad W/D symptoms with everything you are doing.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 06-03-2008 at 04:11 PM.

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    Robert,

    First, "Doug's" message was confusing. I honed in on the statement he made where he said he had "16 months of methadone". I had 10 months, so it was natural for me to compare the two parameters; however, I do also see, now that you pointed it out, where he said he used it "off and on" since 1978. Was he saying then that he used methadone a total of 16 months since 1978? It's confusing--at least to me.

    Second, as you may recall I went through methadone withdrawals already once--cold turkey, without any vicodin or anything else to help me with withdrawals. And even though I was only on methadone up to that point for 5 months, it was still hell to try to get off of them. Obviously, I didn't make it--I only got as far as the morning of the 4th day and I had to start taking them again. That was the day I was on the floor of my GP's office (not my pain doc) writhing with pain and sobbing. Being uninformed about drug withdrawal, she treated me like I was a psych patient--she even told me to go see a shrink.

    So you can understand why I am fearful of going through that experience again--or anything that resembles that experience.

    Anyway, the reason I gave any credence to what Doug said was that I have read in several places that the amount one takes isn't as relevant as you might think when it comes to the severity of withdrawal symptoms. I guess that's the nature of the beast when it comes to methadone.

    So, speaking in the present here, I am on my 5th day of withdrawal and while I feel 65% better than when I was doing the detox without Vicodin, I am still feeling the withdrawal--equivalent to a bad flu except that psychologically you know the flu is going to end in a day or two so you can't compare the two experiences. In terms of the methadone being stronger than vicodin, yes, technically that's true, but the doctor put me on a Vicodin dose that's equivalent to the methadone dose I was taking--7.5./750 of Vicodin to 25 mgs. of methadone to be exact. That's pretty potent--barely below the liver toxicity limit. BTW, I believe on the ladder of opiate potency, Vicodin is six rungs down from methadone. (Which is why, of course, that it takes higher dose of Vicodin to equal a low dose of methadone.)

    Also, of course, though both opiates, vicodin and methadone don't cover all the same receptors. I don't know which covers which because I'm not that deep into the science of it. I only know that even with an equivalent dose of Vicodin to methadone I am most certainly feeling the methadone withdrawals--like my body is in a vise, chills and hot flashes as well as anxiety attacks ( which is why I'm taking zanax as needed).

    As far as the level of methadone required to switch over to suboxone, yes that's true--below 30 mgs is the desired level. BUT, what you have to realize is that with methadone they require you to be in withdrawal 36-48 hours from methadone vs. 12-14 hours from vicodin. THIS is the reason I decided to go from methadone to vicodin then to suboxone.

    A day of cold turkey from Vicodin vs. 3-4 of cold turkey off of methadone would be the equivalent of falling off a bicycle vs. falling off a moving train--if you get my drift. And based on my last horrifying experience, there was no way I could willingly get on top of that train and jump off!

    Hope this explains it. I know that I seem to be obesessing over this. Perhaps I am. More than anything I want to be free of opiates--I may not qualify as an addict (I was dependent on them soley for pain and never exhibited drug seeking behavior) but that does not mitigate their very real effect on my spiritual and emotional life.

    At the same time, while I know I'm doing the right thing in getting off of them, I can't exactly afford the time it takes for the withdrawals to completely leave my body. I have to work! And God has given me a mission yet there is no way I can even take on step towards fulfilling that mission with the way my body feels now--it's depressing, to say the least.

    Sorry for going on and on with this. I'm just telling it like it is.




    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I think that one critical factor here is obvious ... that Doug was using methadone since 1978. LOL That is a long time. He was also taking a significantly higher dose than you. I don't recall how long you used methadone but I don't think it was anything like this guy. Am I wrong??? And as I recall you are on a minimal dose of methadone. In fact you were at the same dose that is recommended for one to be at to make the switch directly from methadone to suboxone ... 25-30mg if I remember correctly. According to what the doctors say, you shouldn't have even had to switch to vics prior to making the switch to suboxone. You should have been okay without even messing with the vics. Not saying you shouldn't have done it like you did, just emphasizing the fact that our individual circumstances are the main factor with how we do this and what the results are. You can only listen so much to other people's stories. They will drive you crazy with false anticipation.

    No way that I would say you couldn't have W/D symptoms come back after the month you spend on suboxone. Anything is possible. But I would be very surprised, in fact shocked if it happened considering the amount of methadone you were taking and the time involved. It just doesn't make any sense to me that this would happen to you. And Gavi was having problems with W/D symptoms from the suboxone because he had been taking it for two years. We have all heard the horror stories from people who used suboxone for a long time. But if you were going to have horrific W/D symptoms from the methadone I believe that you would be experiencing them right now. Think about it realistically. Vicodin is nothing compared to methadone. You are going through the detox from methadone as we speak. That is why you decided to use the Vics for two weeks, to allow for the methadone half life and everything involved. If you aren't having problems now, then it makes no sense that you would suddenly start having problems 45 days down the road from now.

    Let's look at the lingering effects of methadone ... say in comparison to having PAWS that come back at like 30 day intervals after detox. With PAWS we still go through detox and have bad W/D symptoms. We don't have a symptom-free opiate detox and then suddenly have PAWS appear from nowhere a month later. It's a repeat of the W/D-type symptoms. I had PAWS a couple times. It was a huge drag. But I went through bad W/Ds in detox too. I am not saying that you won't have any cravings of any kind. You probably will. Most all of us have them. But having PAWS or similar symptoms like Doug or Gavi were talking about is something all together different.

    You will be fine. Don't worry about all this. You are taking so many steps to protect yourself that I don't see you having a hard time at all. Like I said, you will likely have cravings, you may even have using dreams, but I will be blown away if you have any really bad W/D symptoms with everything you are doing.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Robert,

    First, "Doug's" message was confusing. I honed in on the statement he made where he said he had "16 months of methadone". I had 10 months, so it was natural for me to compare the two parameters; however, I do also see, now that you pointed it out, where he said he used it "off and on" since 1978. Was he saying then that he used methadone a total of 16 months since 1978? It's confusing--at least to me.

    Second, as you may recall I went through methadone withdrawals already once--cold turkey, without any vicodin or anything else to help me with withdrawals. And even though I was only on methadone up to that point for 5 months, it was still hell to try to get off of them. Obviously, I didn't make it--I only got as far as the morning of the 4th day and I had to start taking them again. That was the day I was on the floor of my GP's office (not my pain doc) writhing with pain and sobbing. Being uninformed about drug withdrawal, she treated me like I was a psych patient--she even told me to go see a shrink.

    So you can understand why I am fearful of going through that experience again--or anything that resembles that experience.

    Anyway, the reason I gave any credence to what Doug said was that I have read in several places that the amount one takes isn't as relevant as you might think when it comes to the severity of withdrawal symptoms. I guess that's the nature of the beast when it comes to methadone.

    So, speaking in the present here, I am on my 5th day of withdrawal and while I feel 65% better than when I was doing the detox without Vicodin, I am still feeling the withdrawal--equivalent to a bad flu except that psychologically you know the flu is going to end in a day or two so you can't compare the two experiences. In terms of the methadone being stronger than vicodin, yes, technically that's true, but the doctor put me on a Vicodin dose that's equivalent to the methadone dose I was taking--7.5./750 of Vicodin to 25 mgs. of methadone to be exact. That's pretty potent--barely below the liver toxicity limit. BTW, I believe on the ladder of opiate potency, Vicodin is six rungs down from methadone. (Which is why, of course, that it takes higher dose of Vicodin to equal a low dose of methadone.)

    Also, of course, though both opiates, vicodin and methadone don't cover all the same receptors. I don't know which covers which because I'm not that deep into the science of it. I only know that even with an equivalent dose of Vicodin to methadone I am most certainly feeling the methadone withdrawals--like my body is in a vise, chills and hot flashes as well as anxiety attacks ( which is why I'm taking zanax as needed).

    As far as the level of methadone required to switch over to suboxone, yes that's true--below 30 mgs is the desired level. BUT, what you have to realize is that with methadone they require you to be in withdrawal 36-48 hours from methadone vs. 12-14 hours from vicodin. THIS is the reason I decided to go from methadone to vicodin then to suboxone.

    A day of cold turkey from Vicodin vs. 3-4 of cold turkey off of methadone would be the equivalent of falling off a bicycle vs. falling off a moving train--if you get my drift. And based on my last horrifying experience, there was no way I could willingly get on top of that train and jump off!

    Hope this explains it. I know that I seem to be obesessing over this. Perhaps I am. More than anything I want to be free of opiates--I may not qualify as an addict (I was dependent on them soley for pain and never exhibited drug seeking behavior) but that does not mitigate their very real effect on my spiritual and emotional life.

    At the same time, while I know I'm doing the right thing in getting off of them, I can't exactly afford the time it takes for the withdrawals to completely leave my body. I have to work! And God has given me a mission yet there is no way I can even take on step towards fulfilling that mission with the way my body feels now--it's depressing, to say the least.

    Sorry for going on and on with this. I'm just telling it like it is.

    I agree with everything you just said. Yes, Doug's message was confusing. That is one of the downsides of messages from people who are detoxing or in W/Ds. LOL And you are definitely right about being in W/Ds much longer prior to getting on Suboxone coming off methadone than with Vics. So I do understand why you did this the way you decided to do it. I just wanted to make a point that you are taking steps to insure that you will make a fairly easy transition through this to the suboxone. I know you are in W/Ds now, but you know what really bad W/Ds are like. I just don't think you will have to deal with this "lingering" problem in another 45 days. I believe the methadone will be done doing its thing on you by then. Counting the time on the Vics plus the suboxone you will have a good 45 days. That really should do it for you. Of course anything is possible, but I still think that the number of people who deal with repercussions longer than 45 days are in the very small minority.

    You are right in that the amount of a drug we do is not that important as far as being the main factor contributing to the severity of detox and W/D from the detox. But I think it has a major affect on the post acute withdrawal syndrome or PAWS. Those of us who experience PAWS are usually very heavy long term abusers. Someone who simply abused Vics for a couple years will have a terrible detox just like I had. But the PAWS problem is usually not that common for the 2 year Vic abuser. So that was what I was saying when I said I didn't expect that you would have a recurring experience from the methadone like a junkie of 20 years would be likely to have.

    I don't think you are obsessing about this at all. It's completely normal for us to be focused on what we are experiencing. We wouldn't be normal if we didn't do that. I just always try to anticipate things from a positive viewpoint and deal with the disappointment should it happen. I can usually talk myself through a lot if I am positive enough. I guess it's just one of my few "good" character traits. I am a positive person to a fault. I get on some people's nerves with being positive. It can be taken to an extreme and I probably do that at times to where it's almost corny.

    Hang in there and you will get through this. One good thing, if there is one, about detox is it makes us remember what we have allowed to happen to ourselves. At least that happens I think to those of us who want to get off what we are abusing. I know I can't imagine doing to myself again what I have done in the past. I truly believe I have grown past all that. I know I still have a good "buzz" left in me, but no way I have another detox left. It almost killed me the last time I did a major detox. No way I ever want to do that again.

    I will be praying for you that God gets you beyond these bad W/Ds as quickly as possible. I know it's depressing and it really sucks. He is watching over you though as you are well aware of. Just try to remain positive and remember to give thanks for being on your way to being done with all this. Will talk with you soon. God bless!!!

  28. #28
    piperlaurie is offline Member
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    Thanks, Robert. Very well said. Though having said that, you may not like what I just told the poster "Melee" (if that was her name--can't remember.)
    I disagreed with you in my response to her because I refuse to be "positive" about methadone--or any opioid for matter.

    Bottom line if one absolutely has to be an opioid for pain, make it a short-acting one (not matter what one's doctor or insurance company may tell them) so that they won't have such a hard time getting of it when the time comes for them to do so--hopefully that "time" will be sooner than later.






    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I agree with everything you just said. Yes, Doug's message was confusing. That is one of the downsides of messages from people who are detoxing or in W/Ds. LOL And you are definitely right about being in W/Ds much longer prior to getting on Suboxone coming off methadone than with Vics. So I do understand why you did this the way you decided to do it. I just wanted to make a point that you are taking steps to insure that you will make a fairly easy transition through this to the suboxone. I know you are in W/Ds now, but you know what really bad W/Ds are like. I just don't think you will have to deal with this "lingering" problem in another 45 days. I believe the methadone will be done doing its thing on you by then. Counting the time on the Vics plus the suboxone you will have a good 45 days. That really should do it for you. Of course anything is possible, but I still think that the number of people who deal with repercussions longer than 45 days are in the very small minority.

    You are right in that the amount of a drug we do is not that important as far as being the main factor contributing to the severity of detox and W/D from the detox. But I think it has a major affect on the post acute withdrawal syndrome or PAWS. Those of us who experience PAWS are usually very heavy long term abusers. Someone who simply abused Vics for a couple years will have a terrible detox just like I had. But the PAWS problem is usually not that common for the 2 year Vic abuser. So that was what I was saying when I said I didn't expect that you would have a recurring experience from the methadone like a junkie of 20 years would be likely to have.

    I don't think you are obsessing about this at all. It's completely normal for us to be focused on what we are experiencing. We wouldn't be normal if we didn't do that. I just always try to anticipate things from a positive viewpoint and deal with the disappointment should it happen. I can usually talk myself through a lot if I am positive enough. I guess it's just one of my few "good" character traits. I am a positive person to a fault. I get on some people's nerves with being positive. It can be taken to an extreme and I probably do that at times to where it's almost corny.

    Hang in there and you will get through this. One good thing, if there is one, about detox is it makes us remember what we have allowed to happen to ourselves. At least that happens I think to those of us who want to get off what we are abusing. I know I can't imagine doing to myself again what I have done in the past. I truly believe I have grown past all that. I know I still have a good "buzz" left in me, but no way I have another detox left. It almost killed me the last time I did a major detox. No way I ever want to do that again.

    I will be praying for you that God gets you beyond these bad W/Ds as quickly as possible. I know it's depressing and it really sucks. He is watching over you though as you are well aware of. Just try to remain positive and remember to give thanks for being on your way to being done with all this. Will talk with you soon. God bless!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by piperlaurie View Post
    Thanks, Robert. Very well said. Though having said that, you may not like what I just told the poster "Melee" (if that was her name--can't remember.)
    I disagreed with you in my response to her because I refuse to be "positive" about methadone--or any opioid for matter.

    Bottom line if one absolutely has to be an opioid for pain, make it a short-acting one (not matter what one's doctor or insurance company may tell them) so that they won't have such a hard time getting of it when the time comes for them to do so--hopefully that "time" will be sooner than later.

    I read your reply to Melee and that is okay. Let me just say this. I am definitely not pro-methadone I assure you. I have had big disagreements on this forum with some senior members over it. But I will say that IF one has to take high doses of pain medication FOR THE LONGTERM, vicodin and similar short-acting pain meds have too much acetimenophen in them. When you get to REALLY large doses, which are usually required for longterm serious pain problems, you get into taking toxic doses of tylenol which totally screws one's liver. It's a very touchy situation when this happens. One almost has to choose between the lesser of two evils. If you read a lot of my posts where methadone is involved you will see that I am really anti-methadone. But it does have it's place for longterm pain management and maintenance doses for opiate addiction for some people only. And I say that very cautiously. We basically agree that methadone is usually not the answer. I have to admit though that it does have its rightfully earned place in pain management. And it pains me to say that I promise.

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    Robert, I understand and respect your viewpoint and I want to address it a little later--wrenched my neck really bad last night sleeping (just what I needed during this detox process) and now have to go buy a neck brace. Not good timing as I have a job interview as a staff writer at Disney tomorrow and I really don't want to walk in there with a neck brace on! Guess I can take it off for the interview and just explain to them it's only temporary. (Hope they won't notice I'm in withdrawals--I'll just have to use my acting skills.)

    Real quick--can you tell me what happened to my post in response to Melee? It disappeared---I cannot find it anywhere. You said you read it--when was that? Do you think "they" deleted it? Very weird. Please, let me know if you find it.





    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I read your reply to Melee and that is okay. Let me just say this. I am definitely not pro-methadone I assure you. I have had big disagreements on this forum with some senior members over it. But I will say that IF one has to take high doses of pain medication FOR THE LONGTERM, vicodin and similar short-acting pain meds have too much acetimenophen in them. When you get to REALLY large doses, which are usually required for longterm serious pain problems, you get into taking toxic doses of tylenol which totally screws one's liver. It's a very touchy situation when this happens. One almost has to choose between the lesser of two evils. If you read a lot of my posts where methadone is involved you will see that I am really anti-methadone. But it does have it's place for longterm pain management and maintenance doses for opiate addiction for some people only. And I say that very cautiously. We basically agree that methadone is usually not the answer. I have to admit though that it does have its rightfully earned place in pain management. And it pains me to say that I promise.
    Last edited by piperlaurie; 06-04-2008 at 11:26 AM. Reason: typos

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