[perplexy]

So i'll try to keep the background story short and sweet... my addiction started with percocet/oxycontin approx. 7 years ago after being in a car accident and getting massive amounts of both prescribed. This eventually led to abuse of both, and buying them on the street when the 2 10mg percocets every 3 hours, and 2 oc 40's a day werent enough anymore... eventually I moved on to heroin when I couldn't afford the 10 or so oc80's a day I was up to at that point.... About a year and a half ago I went to a detox, got clean, and stayed sober for about 6 months. Unfortunately I relapsed, and have since been back using mostly oc's, but have used heroin a handful of times when the oxies werent available, and have been back using for about 6 months. What I wanted to ask you, is what kind of taper schedule should I look at attempting with only having access to 5 8mg suboxone tablets. During my time using, I would often go weeks at a time taking nothing but the suboxone when I could find it, and would get myself down to about 4mg, and sometimes even just 2mg per day taken at night. Unfortunately I can't take time off from work while doing this, but i've found in the past that getting out of bed and staying busy was actually better for me personally.

I guess I am just not sure what dose to start at, and how to split up the 5 subs that I have.... I know that I am going to have some wd symptoms... I did this to myself, and I have to deal with it. But theres nothing I wan't more than the feeling of freedom I had after getting clean last time and am willing to do anything to get that back, and never give it up again.

Any advice you can give me will be GREATLY appreciated.

one other side note: I have access to some 800mg ibuprofen, some flexeril, and etodolac which was all prescribed to me for chronic back issues from the accident that was the beginning trigger to this whole circus.


thank you!

- Begging for a new beginning in Boston

[Robert_325]

There is no taper plan per se with so few subs at your disposal. I can only help with a taper plan if you've got enough pills to work with. Can you get more subs? If not you're going to have a very rough time pulling this off. You either need more subs or else you need to plan on tapering down, then doing a cold turkey using the Thomas Recipe to lessen the w/d symptoms. It's a good plan that has helped lots of people get clean . Here is a link to the Thomas Recipe. Let me know how I can help. God bless.

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...wal-35169.html

[perplexy]

Unfortunately, I don't have access to any more subs... this is why I was asking what your opinion would be as far as the best way to do it with the little that I do have. Will starting by taking 4mg's a day, and lowering my dose until im out be at all effective, or would you suggest maybe I rather attempt 'cold turkey' but just taking tiny slivers of the subs mostly at night to sleep.. or would this prevent me from ever detoxing from the other opiates?

I know that with what I have this is still going to be dificult, but I am just looking for a suggestion on how i should utilize what i DO have....

any suggestions as always are greatly appreciated....

[RubyDean]

If it were me, and I only had 5 pills, I would try to get stable at 2mg or 3mg at the most.

If you do 4mg they will be gone before you know it, and it will be harder. It is going to be hard regardless, but the lower you can get, the slightly better off you might be. You could possibly pull it off by doing 3mg for 4 days, reduce to 2mg, 1.5, 1, .75, .50, and .25...do each for 4 days, and then skip some days at the end.

You may really want to consider going cold turkey with the thomas recipe.

[Robert_325]

perplexy .... considering the SMALL amount of subs you've got to work with the plan RubyDean laid out is probably about as good as anything I could come up with on my own.

I would emphasize something he said about what to do at the end. Once you get down to where you only have say ONE pill remaining I would try to take very small doses and skip days between those doses. That should give your body time to get acclimated to having no medication but still having small doses available in between the days without with the skipping.

I think that is a very good idea and a plan that should enable you to make the most out of what you've got to work with. Hope that helps. I sincerely wish you the best luck here as this isn't any type of standard plan. You'll just have to try this and make the most out of what you have to work with. Hope it helps. Keep us posted. God bless.

[perplexy]

thank you for your suggestions....

I know its going to be rough, but I have been able to get myself 'stable' on taking 2-4mg's per day throughout this period of relapse several times, whenever I could get subs. Unfortunately I stayed taking the 2-4 mg's per day, and never tried to taper down each time, so I kept going back to using once I was out of the subs... part of the problem was that I was sck of using, but I dont think I was completely committed to actually stopping. I know I need to stop now, and I know its going to be rough, but I know I can get through it. The last time that I stopped and put together that period of clean time I went to an in-patient detox, but I stopped cold turkey. The only thing I took was ativan the first night, and then bentyl and benadryl for 5 days... I didn't want to just go there to start taking subs since I had been doing that on the street on and off for years...
Sorry, I am just rambling and probably subconsciously just trying to re-enforce my determination... but really what I wanted to ask was since I don't have access to some of the things required for the thomas recipe, like valium, or any benzos for that matter... what is the best otc/legal way to help withsleep, and MOST importantly the leg cramps / RLS symptoms... I can deal with the stomach issues, and actually have a few bentyl capsules, and plenty of immodium... but like many people my big issue is lack of sleep and leg aches/cramps... I've read that magnesium/potassium supplements could help this, but was just wondering if you guys had any other suggestions as far as things that I could buy OTC to try and make this less painful. I plan to start tomorrow by taking 2mg's in the morning/afternoon (whenever I feel I can't take it anymore and need some relief) and then will take 1mg before bed to hopefully help with sleep. I plan to try and follow ruby's taper schedule, though I know the small amount of subs I have is going to make it difficult, hopefully it will also keep me from developing a dependency on the subs. At this point it is all mental, and I know that as bad as it gets, i've gone through it before with nothing, and the freedom of an addiction free life is worth any and all punishment I may have to endure for the next days/weeks to come.....

Thank you all again for the time you donate to listen, help, and encourage. I can't begin to explain the level of my appreciation.

take care.

[RubyDean]

perplexy, when we were talking before, i was think you had previously taken 4mg total per day, so i thought you could possibly stretch out 5 pills (40mgs) total if you were to get stable at 3mg per day total...and then taper down. it sounds like you will are going to need more...in my opinion going cold turkey is better than having to jump off suboxone at 2mg or even 1mg per day. if you are going to do the sub route you need to get down to those small amounts. not trying to scare you, i know you have been there before. i just think if you plan on starting at 4mg per day (2mg in the morning and 2mg in the afternoon) you will need to get some more subs. i think, well i know, robert would agree.
that pseudo plan above was kindove a bare minimum last ditch type effort. if you don't think you can get close to that, i think cold turkey would be a better long term option. the thomas recipe has all the over the counter recommendations listed.

[perplexy]

hi guys.... luckily I was able to come across 6 more subs, for a total of 11. I know this still isnt a huge amount.... but can you help with a schedule using 11?

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by perplexy

hi guys.... luckily I was able to come across 6 more subs, for a total of 11. I know this still isnt a huge amount.... but can you help with a schedule using 11?

The extra six will help but it won't be enough to do the standard taper. That doesn't mean though that you can't be successful getting clean doing this with those extra six. They will help.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, and I type fast sometimes going too fast to make people understand when it helps you if I slow down and explain where I'm coming from, so let me explain why I say the higher number of pills is important. I want you to understand so we're on the same page.

When we use opiates for a long time our brain receptors are basically shut down as they are totally covered up by the opiates to make it simple. It severely hampers our ability to naturally produce endorphines and have them affect us properly which helps us feel better.

Hope that makes sense at least to an extent. Doesn't mean you can't get clean with what you've got but doing it over a couple months gives our brains time to heal better and that improves our chances of not relapsing. Does that make sense?

Tell me exactly what you've taken so far (subs) in how much time, what you have left and we'll do our best to make some kind of a plan to do this together to get you clean. I never turn anyone down who is trying. So take your time and gather your thoughts, RELAX and try to give me as much info as you possibly can. Then we'll work together to do the best we can. That's all we can do but I'll help as best as I can. Just understand that I'm not a miracle worker, I'll just have to try and do the best I am able. God bless.

[perplexy]

robert:

Thanks for replying again.... and to answer your question: yes, I understand what you're saying. I have done a fair amount of research/reading over the years and though I am an engineer and not physician by trade, I do understand what opiates do to our opioid receptors and how it takes time for them to 'recover' so to speak. As of right now, I have not taken any of the subs, since I wasn't sure what dose to start at, I took the last of the oxycontin that I had, and hope to not have to buy more to take tomorrow, and can start this process. I understand your thoughts about a taper schedule over a few months being less painful, but I am hoping that since I have previously detoxed using suboxone over a period of 5 days, (The first time i went to a detox, I had been using oxycontin/heroin and they detoxed me using a short suboxone taper over a few days) and even though that wasn't comfortable by any means, it worked, atleast for a short time. (around 3 months) The second time I went to detox, I had been using suboxone for a few weeks before I went, and just wanted to be done with it, so I stopped it cold turkey while in-patient and stayed clean for a longer period of time.... Unfortunately I know that the determination that I have now will always be questioned and fought by my own demons, but I feel that if I can just get past the physical agony of withdrawal that I can deal with the mental part, with the help of friends and groups that previously helped to keep me clean.

Let me say again that I appreciate your time and dedication to helping complete strangers... I am sure that it is rewarding in its own way, and my hope is to be one of those small rewards by staying in touch while I go through this process and get rid of this monkey on my back.

So, the story is: I have 11 subs... I am not sure if I will be able to get access to any more, so for safety's sake, I have to assume that I won't be able to. I have about 20 flexeril muscle relaxers that do help with sleep that I can take if needed... Unfortunately I do not have access to any benzo's right now, but might be able to get some in another week or so, but again, have to assume I can't for safety's sake.

I would like to start this tomorrow morning, and if I don't receive a response before I feel the need for some relief, I will take 2mg's which *hopefully* will atleast get me feeling somewhat OK for a few hours.

Im open to any and all suggestions, and am completely dedicated to sticking to any kind of plan that you think will lessen my symptoms. I know you're not a doctor, but I also know that I personally have known more about certain meds than the doctors that were prescribing them to me, and you seem to have the trust of many people on this board, so I am willing to put this attempt, and ultimately my life in your hands. sorry for the dramatics =) I just want you to know that I am not someone who is posting and doesn't plan to give it his all to get clean and get back to my sober, healthy, life.

Take care and God bless, Hope to have a response from you in the morning.
btw: I am in boston, so I am on US east coast time.

[Robert_325]

Starting out with a 2mg dose sounds like a good plan. Let's see how that works. But just to point out one thing. When we repeat a detox process multiple times it isn't working effectively. Those are ultimately relapses.

I'm not being smart, just making a point. Do the 2mg in the morning and then let's see how you're feeling. Stay in touch and let me know how you're feeling. I'll try to help you make it work this time. God bless.

[perplexy]

I completely agree that what I did in the past didn't work.. I strayed away from programs and friends that helped me to think straight, and eventually talked myself into the whole 'one time isnt going to kill me' mindset and it was all downhill from there. I know its easier said than done, and past relapses have showed that I am not bulletproof, but I am hoping that my determination can keep me motivated this time.

I will start with the 2mg's in the morning..... I know that 2mg's wont keep me feeling well for very long... what would you suggest the max mg's per day I start out with? 2mg in the morning and 2mg at night? My preference is to take the subs at night, since going to work during the day has helped just keep my mind occupied in the past, and taking it before bed helps my sleep problems down somewhat.

I am just trying to figure out a schedule that I should use with the 11 subs I have... once I have a schedule set, I will stick to it, but I am afraid without something concrete that I will take more than may be completely necessary just due to being physically uncomfortable.


thanks again.

[Robert_325]

With the few meds you have we will have to see how it goes the first few days taking as few as possible and see what will be effective for you. We can't make a plan with just a few pills until we see how you do a few days into this. Keep me posted and we'll come up with something that will work as we see how you react to the meds. There is no sense in having this plan not work like before. Let's give this one a chance my way, or that is what I suggest. God bless.