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Robert325 plz help w sub taper...was on sub thread waiting to hear back
  1. #1
    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Unhappy Robert325 plz help w sub taper...was on sub thread waiting to hear back

    Hi there,
    I really need your help with tapering off subs this time around...just a little background before I hopefully can have your guidance... I've had chronic pain w/ fibro the last 7 years and was on one form of opiate for most of that time. My tolerance is horrible, and I was taking such high doses I decided to go on subs. I successfully got off these subs after a year and a half on 32 mg per day, but i had horrible wds for a good month (i jumped at .25 mg of subutex, and never had difficulty tapering until after getting down under 4mgs). I dont remember my tapering plan but i do remember that i never tried skipping days at the end. Well after going thru that i promised myself >> never go there again! I absolutely loved myself off subs, clear minded, less depressed, more like the old me! I started "feeling" emotions that were suppressed and i loved that part. Well dumbie me I couldnt deal w/ the pain after a few months (while trying every alternative treatment possible) and got back on my pain meds. Well I started building up tolerence fast so I told my dr I wanted to go on subs for a bit then go back on my pain meds, which he agreed to do.

    Long story short, after about 6 months on 24 mg of suboxone films, I asked to go back on my pain meds and he said no, and I need to get off the subs too. If I knew that to begin with, I would have done a much quicker taper grrr

    Ok so this is where i could really use some help because I really dont want to experience the hell I went thru before (bad anxiety, sweats, goosebumps, very achy, crawling outside myself. He Started me off on 32 mg/day (I have a very high tolerance to subs), Then 2 weeks later I dropped to 24, stayed there for around 6 months, then recently tapered down to 16, to 12, to 8 without any problem in the last few months...now after two weeks on 8 (usually dose once a day not at an exact time)...I really wanted off n haven't had any probs so I tried going down to 4mg. After a couple hours I felt bad anxiety, restless so I decided to take a little more, landing on 6mg, but still have all the same symptoms. I need help and want to taper properly so I dont feel terrible while tapering and can jump off more successfully. Also I need to get my mind right because this wasn't my decision so that part of it makes things difficult (last time around I was READY and was mentally prepared). So where should I go from here? Not feeling good on 6 after spending 2 wks on 8...should I go back to 8 or stick thru the wds and stay on 6? I don't want to b miserable all weekend!!! I could use your expertise, guidance and support because I feel like going from 8-6 shouldn't be that difficult and I'm worried that this time around will be even worse than last time (I remember I didn't previously have trouble getting down to 4ish mg/day). I really appreciate what you do on here and I really hope to get your help! Big hugs

  2. #2
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    yes by all means stick it out. you should stabilize on 6mg after a couple of days. if you want to get off these subs, there is a little bit of discomfort but nothing like normal withdrawl...
    high tolerance to subs... dont think so mate. you have just been given far too much which is basically a waste of time and money. (i say this not to belittle you, but to point out, we all think we are spacial, but actually we are all very similar when it comes to gettin clean.

    stick to the 6mg. i will post a link on how to taper, basically its 25% at each drop, usually every 4 days or so. but some of us took longer, and as long as we get there in the end...no problem.

    you probably encountered trouble, by going from 8mg to 4mg as thats a 49% reduction...

    also, get along to an NA meeting, and get around some positive people to help you through this.... subs are going to be the new big problem, too many people are gettin stuck on them, feeling normal. but really, still addicted to opiates.

    i will post the link.
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  3. #3
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    here is the link on how to taper properly. i used the 25% drops, but i took longer than 4 days between drops. i used subs altogether for 1 year 3 months, and >> been an iv user for 25+ years. i have been off subs for 18 months now...
    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...tml#post220161


    and you mention having to do this not wanting to do it.... DO YOU REALLY WANT TO STOP. ??
    ive never felt so free being clean, no liquid handcuffs, no habit, no counting pills, no having to tell stories about why you need to pick up early...

    YOU HAVE TO WANT TO GET CLEAN THO MATE.. IT WONT WORK IF YOU DONT...

    GOOD LUCK

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    surfdog is offline Senior Member
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    Listen to cheeky, he knows what he is doing also and he is right you have to want this. Life is grand drug free and you feel probably find after some time pain is not as severe as once thought. I did. Surfdog

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    toni.s. is offline Senior Member
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    not to intercept this thread...but cheeky..where are you from? i see new zealand and england. i ask cuz i lived in wales for 10 yrs. from age of 4-14. now back in the states in clearwater, FLA. love the weather in comparison lol! just wondering..
    maybe u should respond on my thread, so as not to hijack someone else's again

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    surfdog is offline Senior Member
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    Hey Toni my brother is in Largo ya'll may be neighbors Dog

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    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
    Listen to cheeky, he knows what he is doing also and he is right you have to want this. Life is grand drug free and you feel probably find after some time pain is not as severe as once thought. I did. Surfdog
    Ya, I agree but the constant pain was breaking me down, I vowed to wait a year and I only made it a few months cuz of fibro pain. But I am sooooo sick of seeing this dr monthly, doing UAs every visit, it seems so intrusive, and I do want it, I guess it came across the wrong way. I just hear so many success stories from Roberts plan and I hear alot of their jumps weren't that bad and I wonder if that's possible for myself or am I a special case that's just not good w sub wds? I no Roberts busy but I really could use some guidance cuz my dummie dr wants to do a 10 month taper....which maybe I'll have to do but I'd rather not have this stuff in my system THAT much longer.
    Last edited by Crystalclear651; 06-02-2012 at 09:16 AM.

  8. #8
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    did you read the link.? its all there in black and white.

    and no most of us are not special cases like we think we are... none of us are good with wd or we wouldnt be here in the first place.

    and if you have read the link, if so you would know thats why i recommend going to 6mg for a few days and stabilize on that dose before you go any further. you dont need 'your dummie' of a doctor to start,

    thats the best guidance i can give you but im pretty sure its spot on... been around here for a while myself, and got off subs...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
    Listen to cheeky, he knows what he is doing also and he is right you have to want this. Life is grand drug free and you feel probably find after some time pain is not as severe as once thought. I did. Surfdog
    and ps cheeky is a girl.

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    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    So I've stayed at 6 mg n toughed it out, I'll prob stay longer than 4 days just to stabilize. But my question is when I c my dr next week a. should I ask for subutex (which I was on w previous detox because I was having a lot of bad symptoms) and b. Robert your taper says "The standard taper I used and promote is that if you will reduce by 25% of the total daily dose and maintain that dose for a period of four full days while experiencing minimal to no w/d symptoms it’s safe to reduce again by another 25% and expect the same results. If you experience any overwhelming w/d symptoms during the four day period you can take a .25 mg sliver (depending on your existing dose) and the w/d symptoms usually dissipate immediately. If you require slivers to remain stable at any level you should start over the next day trying to put four days together again. This allows for the long half life of buprenorphine which can be up to 72 hours for most people." So what I don't understand when I go down to 4.5 n I'm really feeling bad, do I take a .25 dose of the 4.5? That part confused me a bit. And what I also dont get is why im feeling the wds the same day as the taper, it should at least b taking a couple days! Sorry dumb blonde here jk xoxo
    Last edited by Crystalclear651; 06-02-2012 at 09:42 AM.

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    surfdog is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheekysod View Post
    and ps cheeky is a girl.
    My bad and I am sorry for my assumption alligator mouth and canary ass did it again Sorry Cheeky Surfdog

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    toni.s. is offline Senior Member
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    i actually live in palm harbor.. it's between clearwater and tarpon springs. but everyone knows clearwater much more! that's awesome. i'm about 30 mins from largo. u ever visit him?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalclear651 View Post
    So I've stayed at 6 mg n toughed it out, I'll prob stay longer than 4 days just to stabilize. But my question is when I c my dr next week a. should I ask for subutex (which I was on w previous detox because I was having a lot of bad symptoms) and b. Robert your taper says "The standard taper I used and promote is that if you will reduce by 25% of the total daily dose and maintain that dose for a period of four full days while experiencing minimal to no w/d symptoms it’s safe to reduce again by another 25% and expect the same results. If you experience any overwhelming w/d symptoms during the four day period you can take a .25 mg sliver (depending on your existing dose) and the w/d symptoms usually dissipate immediately. If you require slivers to remain stable at any level you should start over the next day trying to put four days together again. This allows for the long half life of buprenorphine which can be up to 72 hours for most people." So what I don't understand when I go down to 4.5 n I'm really feeling bad, do I take a .25 dose of the 4.5? That part confused me a bit. And what I also dont get is why im feeling the wds the same day as the taper, it should at least b taking a couple days! Sorry dumb blonde here jk xoxo
    it is rare at your dose to need a slither... dont worry bout slithers till you get to the tiny doses. its only confusing you. and you shouldnt be feeling withdrawls if you do this correctly.stick to the 6mg for now and see how you go.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
    My bad and I am sorry for my assumption alligator mouth and canary ass did it again Sorry Cheeky Surfdog
    no worries mate i got a giggle anyway
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    surfdog is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheekysod View Post
    no worries mate i got a giggle anyway
    glad you did, had too much depressing stuff out there I insist on life being fun now don't be surprised with my lousy typing skills and residual gray matter damage if I don't do it again lol but it would be a slip God Bless Surdog

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    surfdog is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by toni.s. View Post
    i actually live in palm harbor.. it's between clearwater and tarpon springs. but everyone knows clearwater much more! that's awesome. i'm about 30 mins from largo. u ever visit him?
    Yeah going down soon as they feel it is safe for me to drive that far will let you know Dog

  17. #17
    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheekysod View Post
    it is rare at your dose to need a slither... dont worry bout slithers till you get to the tiny doses. its only confusing you. and you shouldnt be feeling withdrawls if you do this correctly.stick to the 6mg for now and see how you go.
    Thx for advice...I was surprised at how bad I felt staying on 6 mg for 2 days n was freaking out cuz Ive been following the other threads n noticed ppl not having trouble til way way lower dosages. I feel like I'm coming across the wrong way like I'm being too needy or something. I really just could use the encouragement n support, n thought maybe Robert would maybe put his input in since I've seen so many threads where he helped ppl step by step but I'm so open to hearing other ppls advice. Im sure hes very busy n prob doesnt have time for my case. I do want this, I guess I'm just freaking out because I don't start counseling for a few weeks n def could use the support n love I've seen on here. I think it's great that everyone is so caring n loving towards eachother n I could use that too. I just want to do this the right way this time cuz the first time I tapered myself n never had a clue on what to do. I did read Roberts taper schedule before I posted his thread, but thought I may need to customize mine since I REALLY felt a change in how I felt at at 6. I went to the gym today n forced myself to workout, n that took alot of energy to get up off my butt but I'm proud of myself that I did it. I can b hard on myself n need to let go a bit, but the anxiety, RLS and creepy crawly feeling is the most difficult of the symptoms to deal with. I'm starting to feel a bit better today tho. Sorry for the long post. It feels good to talk things out since I really have no one at this point to turn to, besides god, whom ive kinda abandoned during the last few years but i want to get back in touch w my relationship w him. Thx for advice on staying at 6 for now n slivers clarification. I'll keep trying to use the 25% method for now.
    Last edited by Crystalclear651; 06-02-2012 at 10:01 PM.

  18. #18
    ClassiqueMom is offline Senior Member
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    hi crystal..

    like you, i've read soooo many on here, who have next to no
    problems with each continual drop..

    but.. when i see my son experience all the symptoms of w/d
    with each drop, i then realize how true it is, that everyone is different..

    now, he has other physical problems that play into the equation..
    but, i can tell you.. hang in there..
    whether it takes 1, 2 or 3 days before those 'symptoms' subside,
    that they WILL INDEED, subside..

    personally, i'd say, then, take a day or 2 of feeling okay, and
    then, bite the bullet, and drop again..

    as caughtagain says: "this, too, shall pass"

    i pray for determination and success for you..
    soooooo many here have done it.. and YOU can too!!

    i'm sorry your life ended up bringing you here, but
    all things considered.. it's the best place to be..
    you'll get lots! of support! and lots! of wisdom!!

    heard this song yesterday and wondered who
    could be blessed by it.. maybe, it's you

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeGNgBwPTMA <--click

    lyrics:


    To everyone who's lost someone they love
    Long before it was their time.
    You feel like the days you had were not enough
    When you said goodbye.

    And to all of the people with burdens and pains
    Keepin' you back from your life.
    You believe that there's nothing
    And there is no one who can make it right.

    There is hope for the helpless, rest for the weary,
    And love for the broken hearts.
    There is grace and forgiveness, mercy and healing
    He'll meet you wherever you are.

    For the marriage that's struggling just to hang on
    They lost all of their faith in love.
    And they've done all they can to make it right again
    Still it's not enough.


    For the ones who can't break the addictions and chains
    You try to give up but you come back again.
    Just remember that you're not alone
    In your shame and your suffering.


    There is hope for the helpless, rest for the weary,
    And love for the broken hearts.
    There is grace and forgiveness, mercy and healing
    He'll meet you wherever you are.


    Cry out to Jesus.

    When you're lonely and it feels like the whole world is falling on you
    You just reach out, you just cry out to Jesus

    Cry to Jesus.

    To the widow who suffers from being alone,
    Wipin' the tears from her eyes.
    For the children around the world without a home,
    Say a prayer tonight.

    There is hope for the helpless, rest for the weary,
    And love for the broken hearts.

    There is grace and forgiveness, mercy and healing
    That meets you wherever you are.

    There is hope for the helpless, rest for the weary,
    And love for the broken hearts.

    There is grace and forgiveness, mercy and healing
    That meets you wherever you are.

    Cry out to Jesus. Cry out to Jesus.
    Last edited by ClassiqueMom; 06-03-2012 at 06:29 AM.
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    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Classique mom response from crystal

    Wow that song is so inspirational, thx for that, I really needed that right now, it brought me to tears, but in a good way. I feel like this journey is not just physical, but emotional n spiritual all at the same time. I need to find my way back to what's right. I'm 30 yrs old n am do scared of finding out if I have. cancer AND at the same time my significant other may have it too so I've been a complete mess on top of this tapering. I truly apprec ur words of encouragement. Much love to you, god bless n thx for ur prayers to me I really need em! Xoxo
    ClassiqueMom likes this.

  20. #20
    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Classique mom response from crystal

    Wow that song is so inspirational, thx for that, I really needed that right now, it brought me to tears, but in a good way. I feel like this journey is not just physical, but emotional n spiritual all at the same time. I need to find my way back to what's right. I'm 30 yrs old n am so scared of finding out if I have. cancer AND at the same time my significant other may have it too so I've been a complete mess on top of this tapering. I truly apprec ur words of encouragement. Much love to you, god bless n thx for ur prayers to me I really need em! Xoxo

  21. #21
    toni.s. is offline Senior Member
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    that was just beautiful mom.
    and crystal clear: i just made my jump from subs. only made it to day 4 so far..every day is a miracle to me. just keep trucking along. i have been blessed, and my w/d's are minimal. but my moodswings have started, and so have my cravings. i'm literally just taking it day by day. and i honestly think that's the best advice you can get right now. and then when you're ready to jump too, everyone will be here with you supporting you. it's a very special website lol
    as far as robert goes...don't fret. i'm very new here too. but it's sunday..so i'm guessing church?

  22. #22
    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by toni.s. View Post
    that was just beautiful mom.
    and crystal clear: i just made my jump from subs. only made it to day 4 so far..every day is a miracle to me. just keep trucking along. i have been blessed, and my w/d's are minimal. but my moodswings have started, and so have my cravings. i'm literally just taking it day by day. and i honestly think that's the best advice you can get right now. and then when you're ready to jump too, everyone will be here with you supporting you. it's a very special website lol
    as far as robert goes...don't fret. i'm very new here too. but it's sunday..so i'm guessing church?
    Congrats to you! Ive successfully did this once so I know you can do it. I'm so proud of u to jump! Just remember that IT WILL go away n u will feel better. Some days are better than others, but there wil b a day you will b you...as you are intended to b, n that's something to strive for and look forward to. I can't remember being happier, despite my pain prob, mentally clear and "felt" for the first time in years. Empathy, love, compassion, happiness from The smallest things. My sig other noticed the difference too, he said I was a completely different aka BETTER person off everything...even though I'm here looking for guidance n support during this times taper, I have been there and got off it , my point being is im here for you and everyone else thats getting off this stuff n am here to b your cheerleader! Plz keep me posted on your journey.

    Oh n btw music was such a huge help during my jump n for the following month, it really helped me during the real tough parts. One song was by 33 miles called hold me up.

    Have a great weekend, thx for everyone's support n I hope to hear from Robert soon.

  23. #23
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    really mate. robert would give you the taper plan, tell you to read it. and probably say the same. stick at 6mg....
    it must be a few days now on 6mg. it should be feeling better. you should not be feeling bad at all on that dose... trust me ive been there, and i felt great at 6mg,, i started on 12mg and would say between 2 and 6 i felt the best. in fact i got down to .5 and sat there for literally months... i felt normal....

    keep with the 25% reductions.... so what if you need an extra day or two, but dont linger too long at any one dose or you may risk gettin 'stuck' like i did...

    classique has it sussed, have a couple of stable days, then push on..... push on... thats why this is so rewarding when we actually do get clean, not just any ol joe bloggs can do it...

    push on mate.
    Crystalclear651 likes this.

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    duplicate post came up. whooops

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    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    I'm gonna push thru this I know I can muster up the strength. I can't say thank u enough for u to take the time to post here for me.

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    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Cool

    Cheeky,
    Congrats on gettin off subs too. Where did u taper down to before jumping? Any suggestions to deal w the anxiety or other uncomfy wds? Did u use any comfort meds? Btw my bad typing is because I'm typing on a cellphone so plz forgive anything that makes nO sense!!!
    Last edited by Crystalclear651; 06-04-2012 at 02:56 AM.

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    crystal, i took my time, and slowly got down to less than .5mg before i jumped... i didnt need any comfort meds at all till after i jumped. i listened to my body, took a little rough with the smooth and realized i need to suck it up and do this right. (for a change trust me ive tried many times)

    for me, subs have been the best thing since sliced bread. it was my chance to get off hard drugs, methadone, needles and that whole suckful lifestyle. and i have not regretted it one bit

    crystal, stick to the taper and keep in touch... you can do it ok... yes

    oh and a bit on anxiety is to be expected, just remember its temporary, keep yourself busy, dont dwell on it..

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    surfdog is offline Senior Member
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    Crystal listen to cheeky she knows what she is talking about, you can do this god Bless Surfdog

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    Crystalclear651 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheekysod View Post
    crystal, i took my time, and slowly got down to less than .5mg before i jumped... i didnt need any comfort meds at all till after i jumped. i listened to my body, took a little rough with the smooth and realized i need to suck it up and do this right. (for a change trust me ive tried many times)

    for me, subs have been the best thing since sliced bread. it was my chance to get off hard drugs, methadone, needles and that whole suckful lifestyle. and i have not regretted it one bit

    crystal, stick to the taper and keep in touch... you can do it ok... yes

    oh and a bit on anxiety is to be expected, just remember its temporary, keep yourself busy, dont dwell on it..
    I agree, that's no way to live n subs are good for getting ur mind right, just in hindsight wish dr put me on a shorter taper but now I guess I'm ready for the ride. Today is day 4 at 6mg n will stay a couple days more until I feel better I think...hope that's doin the right thing don't wanna drag it out too long. Thx gurl

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    Hi crystalclear, sounds like you might be feeling a little more stable at 6mg's,. When I first showed up here I had a case of "I need to talk to Robert" syndrome to. It did not take long to realize I was getting great advice already, and more that likely the same advice Robert would have given. Cheeky knows what she is talking about, and will not steer you wrong.

    A little about my experience for ya. I followed Roberts taper about 6 months ago. I feel like I got really lucky and did not experience really any problems at all and verry little to no wd's. Although I do not think it was all luck. The mental side of things can make the process much easier or much harder, depending on attitude. I do believe you can make things miserable and even muster up wd's by having the wrong attitude. Some call it a form of euphoric recall, or think about Pavlov and his poor dog. Another thing I think really helped me was to make sure I was very consistent in my dose, and the exact time I took it every day. I also made sure I did not eat or drink(esp. cofee) anything 20 minutes before taking my dose. Reason being, the bioavailability of bupe it ph sensitive. If your mouth's ph is off from, say coffee for example, your body can not absorb as much bupe. This seems especially important when you get down to micro doses. By making sure your mouth is "clean" every time before you take a dose, you are ensuring that your body gets the same amount of bupe every day and I think, makes things go a bit smoother. As far as my taper, I followed Roberts taper exactly, until I was to .25mg's. Then I did .25 four days, .16 four days, .125 four days, .068 four days then .068 skipping days. I had 2 mg films, that made it easier to get those tiny micro doses. I do believe that the end part of my taper was a little excessive, but I don't like wd's and I figured what is an extra week or 2. I did not feel a a thing when I stopped. I actually felt better the lower my dose got.

    Keep up the good work!

    Mike
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