[hatevics]

I've been reading different postings for about a month now ever since my boyfriend went online and read a posting which he said was similar to our story and thought that I wrote it. This is actually my first posting because I'm having a very difficult time coping.

My boyfrined has been addicted to vicodin for about a year now taking anywhere from 4-50 a day depending on his mood. He's tried numerous times to stop, but after his first time of going through withdrawal he is terrified to go through it again. I sat with him for about three days as he got the shakes, hot and cold flashes and was basically lethargic. It was horrible and hurt me to see him go through that.
I get really proud of him when he starts to tapper off and is down to maybe two a day but then a few days later he's back to ten. It is emotionally and mentally frustrating that I don't know how much longer I can deal. I love him to death but the emotional abuse is what kills me. He can just be so mean, putting me down all the time, making me feel like a piece of **** and on top of that he's broken up with me a few times saying he can't be with me, puts on this whole show and doesn't stop till I start crying even if it takes two hours to get a tear out of me. He then apologizes and tells me how much he loves me and wants to marry me. I just don't know what to do. He is a very stubborn person to begin with but I want to help him. I know that it's his own will power that will really make him stop, but in the mean time what do I do. Take all the emotional abuse, I know that's a stupid question because if I wasn't in my shoes I would say what's wrong with you leave him, but it's just not that easy. It's not a dependant thing either because I am leaving for school in about a week, but I really believed he would be off of them before I left so I wouldn't have to worry. I'm just so lost and confused. I just want to be by his side and help and support hims which I have been doing for the past 4 months, which has been killing me and at times I just get frustrated, feel like I hate him and don't want to be around him. I'm falling apart inside while trying to help someone get themself back together. What do I do? If anyone can relate please respond, I need help.
Thanks I appreciate it.

[cantstandit]

hatevics,

I'm sorry about the tough predicament that you are in with your boyfriend. I'm sure that some around you are suggesting that you leave him. But if your heart tells you to stay, then that should tell you alot. Only you can decide if you stay or if you go, but if you stay, you'll have to commit to give it all you have got to help him through this. Support and understanding of the detox process is what he'll need from you. Afterwards, you can enjoy the sober boyfriend you know, love, and are proud of.

As far as him kicking the pills, he's halfway there if he really already wants to quit. It's great to taper off and get down to maybe 2 a day, but after 2 a day is 1. And after 1 is the big step of none. Detox is something he is going to have to go through. It's going to hurt and it won't be fun. The withdrawals of pain pills for me was the toughest physical experience I have ever been through and it will be for him too. He has to commit to do it, and then do it. Yes it's going to hurt, but hopefully he will suck it up like a man and get through it. He won't be able to work for many days to weeks. No one can expect anything from him during this time. He will need the support and understanding of everyone around him and must be cut off from the friends and environment in which he did his drugs. This is one of the big reasons that treatment centers have greater success in complete detox. He must maintain a completely healthy diet - I found this website very helpful for me as I have been withdrawing from methadone, another pain killer. I'm sure much would apply for your boyfriend as well. http://www.dpeg.org/treatment/methadone_withdrawal.htm

Some people here choose to use prescribed drugs to get off of the drugs they are addicted to. Honestly I can't tell you that is wrong. But for me, I just decided to quit and I quit. I'm at 31 days now and feeling much better now. My thought before detox was that if I got on some drug to help me with the withdrawals, then after getting off that drug, I would still be left to withdraw off the next drug. What then? Another drug to help you get off the drug that helped you get off the last drug? Sounds like a long drawn out process to me and I wanted off quick. Regardless of what approach he decides, I think you should get as much information as you can about the best method for vicodin withdrawal. Hopefully consult a doctor. But plan for a succesful withdrawal first. Then do it, get past it, and leave it all behind. Maybe then you can decide if your heart really belongs with him or not. But for now, hopefully you will be the best friend that he'll need to see this detox through.

Good Luck

[amazonian1]

Hi Hatevics, I can totally understand what your going through. It sounds to me like maybe you should leave him to his own devices for awhile and see how he likes being alone. Maybe your abscence will make him realize just how good you are to him. The emotional abuse is a neverending thing in a relationship like that, trust me I know. Would he consider using suboxone to detox off of the vicodin? The doctors are having great success with this drug. It is used to detox addicts off of pain pills or methadone. Not all doctors prescribe this but you could check around, maybe call a drug hotline in whatever state your in. If he cant detox himself, then this would be the best way to do it. He is not going to get clean until he is ready. I hope this helps you. Good Luck. C

[WITTSEND]

HELLO HATE VICS
BOY YOUR LETTER HIT HOME A LITTLE BIT. WHY IS YOUR BOYFRIEND TAKING THE VICODINE, MEDICAL REASONS, AT LEAST IN THE BEGINING? I WAS ON PAIN MEDS HEAVY FOR A WHILE, STILL HAVE TO TAKE THEM. I'VE BEEN MARRIED TO A WONDERFULL WOMAN FOR 21 YEARS. BUT I ALSO GOT HOOKED ON PAIN MED'S A FEW YEARS AGO. MY WIFE MADE ME MAKE A CHOICE, THE PILLS OR HER. GUESS WHAT, SHE LOST. OR MAYBE I SHOULD SAY I LOST, WE SPLIT UP FOR 3 MONTHS. WORST TIME OF MY LIFE, EVEN WORST THAN NOW. YOU SEE DUE TO MY FOOLISHNESS IN THE LATE 60'S, I STARTED STICKING THE NEEDLE IN MY ARM. AND NOW HAVE HEPATITIS C, HAD A LIVER BI-OPT MAYBE A MONTH OR SO AGO. DOES'NT LOOK TO GOOD FOR ME, STARTING TO SHOW SYMPTOMS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS IT'S TOO LATE. DOES HE HAVE A DEATH WISH? THE DRUGS WILL KILL HIM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, HE CAN BANK ON IT. I DON'T KNOW HOW HE REALLY IS, BUT IF YOUR THAT CONCERNED ABOUT HIM. THERE MUST BE SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT HIM. AND IF YOU REALLY DO LOVE HIM, STAND BY HIM, YOUR PROBLY ALL HE HAS. TAKE CARE I REALLY HOPE THINGS WORK OUT FOR YOU GUYS. WITTS END

[brilite]

I strongly suggest you go to an al-anon meeting. I lived with an alchoholic for years and the group was the only thing that saved me. I would have been a total mess without it. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ It's not just for those affected by people who drink. many of us are there because of our loved ones are on pills and other drugs. Take care of yourself so you can take care of others too. You are the most important person.

[heartbreak]

I know just what you are going threw, my husband has been on them for about 6mths to a year i fianlly caught on, two girls in his doctors office was getting him prescription 120 at a time so 240 pills he was giving them some i started finding bottles with diffrent pharmacies on them some in my name even! i finally went off on him we are behind in our bills because of this we constanly fight, he was alot of mood swings very verbally abuseive to me and sometimes physical, i cant sit around and watch this suppouably its been a week since he has not been on them i sat with him threw the withdrawls, but just the other day i seen him go to that doctors office i was driving by on the other side of the street i then confronted him about him said he was inquiring about some drug that helps you get off them, that was a lie we got into another argument last night i can tell in his eyes small pupils and tone of voice he claims he isnt but i have heard nothing but lies??? i dont know what to do anymore, when i ask him he gets pissed?? says im being to paranoid?? god what can i do??

LeeAnn Conley

[Miles]

Hatevics:

Cantstandit makes the most sensible suggestion in reply to your posting: Some people here choose to use prescribed drugs to get off of the drugs they are addicted to... But for me, I just decided to quit and I quit.

Taking another drug to wean from Vicodin makes absolutely no sense. With the properties of painkillers and psychiatric drugs as they are, he will never be drug-free should he chose to follow that protocol. The ones who will profit from that strategy will be the drug manufacturers and the physicians and drug researchers who are "in their pockets."

The operative word in Cantstandit's posting is "choose." Drugs are inert, inanimate objects - they have no affect on anything until an individual chooses to ingest them. Your boyfriend "chose" to be addicted, to abuse a suitable painkiller - he can "choose" not to be addicted. Not to minimize the emotional suffering he endures as a result of his choices, there is absolutely no reason for you to endure the abuse he is putting you through - you have told us a good deal about his lack of character and temperament - it sounds as though you may be caught up in his cycle of abuse, drugs or no drugs. You will have to make a choice as well.

Best of luck to you.
Miles

[mtlmd]

I think you guys are too hard. I don't think people CHOOSE to get addicted, although I do think you have to make a conscious decision to get clean. Drugs do bad things to a personality. When I was using I was withdrawn and mean. Then I got off, and once I got through the withdrawl, I became a much better person.
It's true your boyfriend has to be ready to get off his drugs but let him get professional help. These drugs are powerful and despite our best intentions we often end up back where we started without good professional help.
Others may be right and that he will be just as abusive once he is truly off drugs but if you are there for him and non-judgemental and help him get through withdrawl (with or without meds - although I am an advocate of meds myself) you may find a wonderful guy underneath it all. At least at the end you can figure out who he REALLY is and decide for yourself.

[Miles]

Mtlmd:

If one does not choose addiction, how else may it be explained? Why do some persist, in the face of all reason and all evidence, in pushing the disease model as the best explanation for addiction?

The person we call an addict always monitors his/her rate of consumption in relation to relevant circumstances. For example, even in the most desperate, chronic cases, alcoholics never drink all the alcohol they can. They plan ahead, carefully nursing themselves back from the last drinking binge while deliberately preparing for the next one. This is not to say that their conduct is wise, simply that they are in control of what they are doing. Not only is there no evidence that they cannot moderate their drinking, there is clear evidence that they do so, rationally responding to incentives devised by hospital researchers. The evidence supporting this assertion has been known in the scientific community for years.

Politicians and the media tell us that people who take drugs, including alcohol or nicotine, cannot help
themselves. They are supposedly victims of the disease of "addiction," and they need "treatment." The same goes for sex addicts, shopping addicts, food addicts, **************** addicts, or even addicts to abusive relationships.

This theory, which grew out of the Temperance movement and was developed and disseminated by the religious cult known as Alcoholics Anonymous, has not been confirmed by any factual research. Numerous scientific studies show that "addicts" are in control of their behavior.

Contrary to the shrill, mindless propaganda of the "war on drugs," very few of the people who use alcohol, marijuana, heroin, or cocaine will ever become "addicted," and of those who do become heavy drug users, most will mature out of it in time, without treatment. Research indicates that "treatment" is completely ineffective, an absolute waste of time and money.

Instead of looking at drug addiction as a disease, we should view it as willful commitment or dedication, akin to joining a religion or pursuing a romantic involvement. While heavy consumption of drugs is
often foolish and self-destructive, it is a matter of personal choice.

"There are no dangerous drugs - just stupid choices." (Thomas Szasz)

Regards,
Miles

[neilg]

i am new and seem to be having prolems with methadose would another brand be better?

[mtlmd]

[quote]Originally posted by Miles

Mtlmd:

If one does not choose addiction, how else may it be explained? Why do some persist, in the face of all reason and all evidence, in pushing the disease model as the best explanation for addiction?

The person we call an addict always monitors his/her rate of consumption in relation to relevant circumstances. For example, even in the most desperate, chronic cases, alcoholics never drink all the alcohol they can. They plan ahead, carefully nursing themselves back from the last drinking binge while deliberately preparing for the next one. This is not to say that their conduct is wise, simply that they are in control of what they are doing. Not only is there no evidence that they cannot moderate their drinking, there is clear evidence that they do so, rationally responding to incentives devised by hospital researchers. The evidence supporting this assertion has been known in the scientific community for years.

Politicians and the media tell us that people who take drugs, including alcohol or nicotine, cannot help
themselves. They are supposedly victims of the disease of "addiction," and they need "treatment." The same goes for sex addicts, shopping addicts, food addicts, **************** addicts, or even addicts to abusive relationships.

This theory, which grew out of the Temperance movement and was developed and disseminated by the religious cult known as Alcoholics Anonymous, has not been confirmed by any factual research. Numerous scientific studies show that "addicts" are in control of their behavior.

Contrary to the shrill, mindless propaganda of the "war on drugs," very few of the people who use alcohol, marijuana, heroin, or cocaine will ever become "addicted," and of those who do become heavy drug users, most will mature out of it in time, without treatment. Research indicates that "treatment" is completely ineffective, an absolute waste of time and money.


I beg to differ. I didn't choose to get addicted. As you say, many exposed to the same drugs never get addicted. It found me for the same reason bad relationshipsfind people with low self-esteem, etc...
I think it is an illness but one with good treatments. I do believe in the motto "once an addict, always an addict". Not to say you are always using, but you are always at risk. Some people learn to deal with whatever defieincies drove them to abuse drugs in the first place. I believe I have. Others never look at what was underlying their addiction and end up going back to the same, familiar patterns.

I was recently on methadone for pain during my pregnancy (I needed it not to go into premature labor). I tried to get off the methadone with the help of my physician who is an addiction specialist and very supportive of this. But I escalated my dose at the end. Yes consciously I knew that I was taking more but it was as if I had no control over it. I knew what I was doing yet I thought I really knew what I was doing when it was drugs talking. I am now off and thinking clearer - now that the bad withdrawl has passed.
You sound like my husband though. He feels I should have told him I was going up on my dose since I KNEW I was going up on my dose. But it was not a rational thing - it made sense only to me, a drug user.

I don't know what your experiences were with drugs - whether they were your own or someone else's but I would be interested to hear your side of things.

[mtlmd]

quote:Originally posted by neilg

i am new and seem to be having prolems with methadose would another brand be better?

What do you mean problems with methadone - why are you taking it, how much and what problems are you having? Also, are you getting it from a doctor/clinic or off the street?

[amazonian1]

I totally disagree with the notion that drug treatment is ineffective, waste of time and money. I don't know what research came up with that BS! Also people don't make a choice to become addicted, and if you [u]EVER WERE</u> an addict, you'd know that. I guess you would also say that " Guns don't kill people- stupid people kill people." I think that if you can't detox successfully on your own, then meds would be the way to go, unless you want to be a junkie the rest of your life. I know methadone saved my life as well as meetings and one on one couseling. Treatment does work!! [^]

[mtlmd]

Hooray to someone who seems o know what they are talking about!

[Miles]

I will repeat myself: addiction treatments do not work. This does not mean that individuals never give up their addiction after treatment. It is simply that they do not seem to do so at any higher rate than without treatment. One treatment tends to be just about as effective as any other treatment, which is just about as effective as no treatment at all.

If addiction is a disease ("illness" as MTLMD alleges), it is either a bodily or a mental disease. There is a problem with regarding addiction as a physical disease, however. It does not have the right characteristics. Pathology requires an identifiable alteration in bodily tissue, a change in the cells of the body, for disease classification. This is the reason that a simple test of a true physical disease is whether it can be shown to exist in a corpse. There are no bodily signs of addiction itself (as opposed to its effects) that can be identified in a dead body. Addiction is therefore not listed in standard pathology textbooks.

Addiction is not a "disease" that requires "treatment"; it is a choice that requires individual responsibility. Drugs do not cause addiction. No thing can "addict" any person. Moreover, addiction does not mean you cannot control your behavior. You can always control your own behavior. Drugs are inanimate objects. They have no will or power of their own.

So let us ask, why, then, do people choose to use drugs? People use legal and illegal drugs like Vicodin and heroin to avoid coping with their lives. The reasons people avoid coping with their lives may be judged good or bad. Addiction is the expression of a person's values. Therefore, whenever we talk or write about addiction we are dealing with an ethical issue, not a medical one. Addiction is not a disease, nor is addiction a public health problem. Addiction is a choice.

Addiction may best be viewed as willful commitment or dedication, akin to joining a religion or pursuing a romantic involvement. While heavy consumption of drugs is often foolish and self-destructive, it is a matter of personal choice.

Experience with addiction treatment must surely make us even more dubious about the theory that addiction is a disease. The most popular way of helping people manage their addictive behavior is Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and its various 12-step offshoots. Many observers have recognized the essentially religious nature of AA. The U.S. courts are increasingly regarding AA as a religious activity. In United States v Seeger (1965), the U.S. Supreme Court stated that the test to be applied as to whether a belief is religious is to enquire whether that belief "occupies a place in the life of its possessor parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in God" in religions more widely accepted in the United States. This requirement is met by members of AA and other secular programs that help people with addictive behaviors and encourage their members to turn their will and lives over to the care of a supreme being. [u]What kind of disease is this for which the best available treatment is religion</u>? Clinical applications are based on explanations for why the behavior occurs. An activity based on a religious belief masquerading as a clinical form of treatment tells us something about what the activity really is--an ethical, not medical, problem in living.

What passes as clinical treatment for addiction is psychotherapy, which essentially consists of various forms of conversation or rhetoric. One person, the therapist, tries to influence another person, the patient, to change his/her values and behavior. While the conversation called therapy can be helpful, most of the conversation that occurs in therapy based on the disease model is potentially harmful. This is because the therapist misleads the patient into believing something that is simply untrue - that addiction is a disease, and, therefore, addicts cannot control their behavior. Preaching this falsehood to patients may encourage them to abandon any attempt to take responsibility for their actions.
The treatment of drug effects, at the patient's request, is well within the domain of medicine, what passes as evidence for the theory that addiction is a disease is merely clinical folklore.

Regards,
Miles

[mtlmd]

I am sorry you have been do misled. Unless you are a doctor - which I doubt - you do not understand the meaning of disease. Just because methods of detecting a disease have not yet been found does not make a disease any less real. And just because god is our best treatment right now doesn't mean we have found a cure.
Firstly, many studies show that brain function in addicts is different than in non-addicts exposed to te same drug. Some science is there to prove that - which negates your concept that this is not a disease.
And think back 100 years when many diseases were "cured" with prayer incl infections when there were no antibiotics. Just because a disease has a spontanteous remission rate and that no effective treatments have been found does not make it any less of a disease.
I agree that as addicts we have choices but our brains function differently. That is why of 100 people given a narcotic very few will ever get addicted. It is NOT because we wanted to get addicted or use those particular drugs - there are lots of ways to drown our miseries if we have any - yet many will not have abused alcohol or street drugs and still wind up addicted to pain pills.
You should do a bit more of a search into the medical literature before proclaiming that addiction is not a disease.
I am sure many on the site would tell you that they felt this was something beyond their control.
If necessary I can firward you some articles of medical research into the "disease" of addiction.
Mtlmd

[amazonian1]

Amen, I agree 100%.

[Miles]

Mtlmd:

What makes you think I am not a physician? Is it because I don't buy into the medicalization of every problem in living to include depression? Please do not confuse me with a psychiatrist!

In my training, I have been taught that the definition of disease is the presence of a lesion in the body. There are no blood tests for addiction that I am aware of. For example, Hepatitis C is a disease. I can conduct a blood test in a patient and detect its presence. Not so with addiction! Addiction is behavior, not disease. By labeling addiction a disease, it becomes medicalized and patients who "suffer" from addiction, can be labeled as sick and receive "treatment." Interestingly, by being labeled "sick," the addicted patient can conveniently blame his/her problems on a disease.

Alas, by being labeled as sick, all personal responsibility goes out the window. Show me a study showing that "brain function in addicts is different in non-addicts" as a result of the "disease of addiction," and I will show you junk research! Did the addiction alter the brain's functioning, or were some folks just "born that way?" Sure an addict's brain functioning may be different from a non-addict, but I ask you... could the abuse of drugs have caused the alteration? The excuse that "the drug made me become a junkie" is pure tommyrot!

Stop blaming the drug, an inert, inanimate object, for "causing" addiction? There are no dangerous drugs... period! Just poor choices.

Miles

[mtlmd]

Wow - you certainly do have strong convictions. I do hope that you are not an addiction medicine physician! I know that I certainly would not want to go to you as a patient.

It is wonderful that you have taken control of your life. If you would like to blame your lack of will power or other underlying psychiatric illness/personality weakness/etc... for your drug abuse than by all means go ahead. I, however, feel strongly that there is a predisposition in certain people - whether genetic or environmental - that makes them fall prey to drugs and become abusers.

When I think back to when I first abused opiates I realize that there were things in my life that I needed to work on so I didn't have to use drugs to make me feel better, more comfortable with who I was. Today, I am a better person for it.

So you would blame my personality weaknesses. I believe that those made it possible for my mind to be receptive to the drugs. However you want to view it is fine by me. Personally, I would like to think that I have some control of over my drug use but am at high risk because of various brain alterations. Whether those were primary or secondary brain changes I do not know but those drugs changed my brain.

One way or another I have a disease. Whether as you believe the drugs change the brain, or as I believe, that those changes are there to begin with is a moot point. My brain is different and will always be.

If you blame yourself too much it may become counterproductive and you may be more apt to relapse. It's a lot of pressure to know that you did this all to yourself and only you can get yourself out of it. Or didn't your therapist teach you anything?

Mtlmd

[Miles]

Mtlmd:

As humans, we all are "predisposed" to taking drugs. They make us feel better! Who doesn't want to feel better?

The issue I raise is who/what is responsible for overdoing drug use. Viet Nam vets who shot up horse daily came off the junk quickly upon their return to the US, and without so-called "treatment." Why? Because they chose to!

As you intimate, major life events are usually associated with an individual falling into a lifestyle of drug abuse. It is nothing medical, but rather it is a social event. There is no genetic predisposition to drug abuse - again, drug abuse/addiction is behavior, not disease.

In your last paragraph, you cite the classic psychobabble response to victimization: something other than me is responsible for my problems. That is plain and simple drivel. If I become addicted, who/what should I hold responsible? No one holds a gun to your head and orders you to take 50 750mg Vicodin/day! You would have me believe there is something medically "wrong" with you that makes you do that - I will never buy into that myth.

Miles

[mtlmd]

At first you critized the medical studies showing differences in the brain responses (usually PET scans) in drug addicts and non-addicts to various drugs. You said that it might be the drug abuse that changed the brain physiology. So what if it were? What if some social event led you to take and abuse drugs, and then, your brain physiology was irrepairably altered. Yes, YOU and YOU alone were the primary cause - no one forced you to take the drugs in the first place. Except I, like so many others, did not go out to the streets looking for drugs. We had pain and got prescription opiates. Only we abused them when others would not. But, that is a digression. So back to the point, YOU decided to take drugs. But now your brain physiology is changed. Your subsequent response to those drugs and probably other drugs is changed becuase of how your brain responds to them.
Your first point a while back is that drug abuse is not a disease becuase there are no pathologic changes. Well, there are changes. Changes that we can probably, at least at this point in our medical knowledge, identify only when people are alive. There are true abnormalities on tests. So what do you want to call it?

I would be interested to hear your story and why you seem so resistant to the medicalization of drug abuse.

Mtlmd

[hatevics]

Thanks everyone for replying, I haven't had a chance to read the forums in a while since I've just moved back to Boston and my boyfriend is in NY with his problem getting worse. About taking prescription medications to get off another prescription med, I think only works on people who are really willing to stop and choose to do it by taking that approach. But then again, there are those, such as my boyfriend who use it as an excuse to make it seem like they're getting off the original med when in reality, they're just moving onto something worse. Before I left for Boston, I spoke to his mother who he is really close with to make sure she keeps an extra eye on him (she knows he has a problem) because dealing with the struggles of being with someone who has a problem has taught me something very important and has made me feel the strongest I have ever been. I mean yeah, of course, it got me down, into his cycle for a while, but you know what I finally realized, I can't do anything and no one can but himself. And that's what really killed me, the fact that I couldn't help him. The day before I left I went to his condo to pick up my things and various random sentimental things of mine were missing. Now isn't that strange it just got up and walked away by itself. I went to his office flipped out because I had it and that may have been the wrong approach, but it actually made him listen for the first time in months. I told him he had a problem and needed help, but the saddest part about it was that he said he knows, he thinks he's dying, but he doesn't like who he is when he's not on them. To me that shows a level of immaturity. He doesn't yet know who he is and is unhappy with himself and will continue to be an addict until he can realize who he is, be happy with himself and be strong enough to realize that the drugs don't make his problems go away, they just get buried deeper and deeper. And you know what that made me say to myself that I love him to death, but not who he is right now as an addict. I sacrificed my whole summer for him to be there, support him, take care of him disregarding the way he treated me. I am happy I did that, but now I'm ready to move on, we still talk, he thinks I'm with other men, forgot about him, but what can I do. I can't expect him to care for me when he can't care for himself. What I have gotten out of all of this is that it's important for people with addiction problems to be supportive, but you're not going to be able to stop it. It's the person within themselves. I've never been through it, but I know it's hard. About going away and getting professional help, I do think that that works, but only if the person really wants to help themselves. So I've made my choice to be there for him, but he needs a little bit of tough love and I need to be able to be happy with myself and my life. And drugs do affect pathological changes in your brain especially if you let the drugs take over you. Because once that happens, you're the person who that drug made you be, not the real person you are and it's very upsetting, and it sucks because I truly truly believe that no one can make an addict stop not even help because it has to be them and yeah many people do grow out of it, many people don't and many people have to learn the hardway, which I hope doesn't happen to my boyfriend, but for some strange reason I feel that's the only way he'll stop.

Well, thanks everyone for your input, but from having no clue how to deal with this situation, watching back and finally popping myself out of his little bubble I know I didn't do anything wrong only good and it wasn't good enough. But it's only because he won't help himself.

[ladyleesa7]

I agree there is nothing shameful about being addicted,however it is shameful to have so many tools/agencies at your disposal and not take anvantage of them.Some people stay in that type of situation because they don't want to suffer the pains of withdrawal.If you have been in a relationship with Heroin or any other mind altering mood changing substance,as with another person there is going to be some amount of pain in letting go,the pain my friend is in holding on to a substance,person long past the expiration date,my personal opinion is that anyone that's using drugs is sick and needs our prayers and support.How about some counseling to get to the root cause,not what kind of drugs you use,but why you use drugs in the first place,what's going on on the inside that is so painful that the only way you feel that you can deal with it is through drugs.You are not unique in that there is no new thing under the sun. Can we talk,not just talk but talk honestly,the kind of talking that puts me in the mind of peeling an onion,it comes off in layers,lets begin by telling ourselves some truths,lets stop blaming and accept some responsibility for our actions and decisions.With Gods'help anything is possible,you never have to use drugs again,if you don't want to.

[z1234d]

While I have not experienced what you are going thru-I do suggest that you go to at least 6 different alanon meetings- I say 6 as they will also - so you can see which meeting best suits you. I have seen many friends benifit from this program. Please do not subject yourself to the emotion abuse you mentioned. It is killing you.
I hope for the best for you. Z

[Misti]

I can relate to your boyfriend in that I have been using vicodin for about 20 years now. I started with much stronger pain meds (for pleasure only) and now I am still fighting with vics. I can stop for 3 months at a time, but I always seem to use again and then once I start it sort of spirals out of control fast. I am always starting and stopping which is making me either high or sick.
This is life threatening to me as I have Hep-C and still can't stop. They are known to have a lot of tylenol which is hard on your liver. I always go overboard on the amounts because I want to get really high if I am going to use. I am sure that your boyfriend is not using them to hurt you and probably is so frustrated that he takes it out on the closest people to him. My husband doesn't know what to do to help me stop. I don't know what to do. They are hard to give up entirely.
I don't even like the way they make me feel anymore most of the time, but still it's like I have no control when I am in certain situations......
I am a lot happier when I am not using and so are my husband and four kids, but I tend to replace drugs so it seems I am always using something.
I don't know what your boyfriends thoughts are, but I do know that I am very sad and hate myself a lot because of this addiction.
I would say if you are able to get out of that relationship then do so because we have been thru hell and back with my addiction.
good luck and if anyone can relate to me I need to talk......
Misti

[MILES JACKSON]

listen does codiene interfeer with drug testing[?]

miles jackson

[amazonian1]

Hi MJackson, What do you mean interfere? You will come up dirty for codine, but if your prescribed it then thats okay. Hope this answers your question.

[slowly crawling from hell]

quote:Originally posted by Miles

I will repeat myself: addiction treatments do not work. This does not mean that individuals never give up their addiction after treatment. It is simply that they do not seem to do so at any higher rate than without treatment. One treatment tends to be just about as effective as any other treatment, which is just about as effective as no treatment at all.

If addiction is a disease ("illness" as MTLMD alleges), it is either a bodily or a mental disease. There is a problem with regarding addiction as a physical disease, however. It does not have the right characteristics. Pathology requires an identifiable alteration in bodily tissue, a change in the cells of the body, for disease classification. This is the reason that a simple test of a true physical disease is whether it can be shown to exist in a corpse. There are no bodily signs of addiction itself (as opposed to its effects) that can be identified in a dead body. Addiction is therefore not listed in standard pathology textbooks.

Addiction is not a "disease" that requires "treatment"; it is a choice that requires individual responsibility. Drugs do not cause addiction. No thing can "addict" any person. Moreover, addiction does not mean you cannot control your behavior. You can always control your own behavior. Drugs are inanimate objects. They have no will or power of their own.

So let us ask, why, then, do people choose to use drugs? People use legal and illegal drugs like Vicodin and heroin to avoid coping with their lives. The reasons people avoid coping with their lives may be judged good or bad. Addiction is the expression of a person's values. Therefore, whenever we talk or write about addiction we are dealing with an ethical issue, not a medical one. Addiction is not a disease, nor is addiction a public health problem. Addiction is a choice.

Addiction may best be viewed as willful commitment or dedication, akin to joining a religion or pursuing a romantic involvement. While heavy consumption of drugs is often foolish and self-destructive, it is a matter of personal choice.

Experience with addiction treatment must surely make us even more dubious about the theory that addiction is a disease. The most popular way of helping people manage their addictive behavior is Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and its various 12-step offshoots. Many observers have recognized the essentially religious nature of AA. The U.S. courts are increasingly regarding AA as a religious activity. In United States v Seeger (1965), the U.S. Supreme Court stated that the test to be applied as to whether a belief is religious is to enquire whether that belief "occupies a place in the life of its possessor parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in God" in religions more widely accepted in the United States. This requirement is met by members of AA and other secular programs that help people with addictive behaviors and encourage their members to turn their will and lives over to the care of a supreme being. [u]What kind of disease is this for which the best available treatment is religion</u>? Clinical applications are based on explanations for why the behavior occurs. An activity based on a religious belief masquerading as a clinical form of treatment tells us something about what the activity really is--an ethical, not medical, problem in living.

What passes as clinical treatment for addiction is psychotherapy, which essentially consists of various forms of conversation or rhetoric. One person, the therapist, tries to influence another person, the patient, to change his/her values and behavior. While the conversation called therapy can be helpful, most of the conversation that occurs in therapy based on the disease model is potentially harmful. This is because the therapist misleads the patient into believing something that is simply untrue - that addiction is a disease, and, therefore, addicts cannot control their behavior. Preaching this falsehood to patients may encourage them to abandon any attempt to take responsibility for their actions.
The treatment of drug effects, at the patient's request, is well within the domain of medicine, what passes as evidence for the theory that addiction is a disease is merely clinical folklore.

Regards,
Miles

I have a question Miles.. How long were you addicted to heroine/painkillers/and methadone all together. For how many years? How many times have you tried quitting ...but failed?? If you went as far as taking methadone then you must have tried to quit several times in the past..correct? So tell me, what stopped you from getting clean before? I congradulate you on your success now. But please don't try to rationalize everything just because you were one of the lucky ones. Anyway, you know what they say "once an addict, always an addict", it's been a short time for you dear. You don't know what the future will hold for you. You can say all you want now that you're clean, but who knows for how long. Anything can set you off. Your mind and body may be strong now, because you wanted it bad enough...you were tired of the cr*p...just like all of us. And had enough strength to quit 'this time around'. But like I said.... you don't know what the future holds. I know people that have been clean for years, up to 40 and then some that were counselors..and guess what? Some of them went back after all the said and done. After all that work. Open up your mind a bit, you know we're right when we say that an addict has an addictive personality. When we're in horrible withdrawl and can't even think clearly, or don't think at all...only to get rid of the pain at the moment...The first ..very first thing we do is pick up? We've trained ourselves to do this, just like you train a dog. Can you untrain a dog to do something it's known all it's life and nothing else?

So please tell me how long you've been an addict...this will prove a lot! I'm sure your views about this subject were different before your new found success. I'm sure you've been in and out of detoxes, cause you couldn't do it on your own... untill now..congrats!! Just watch out ...the door may still knock you on your ass if you're not looking.


~M
~M

[mtlmd]

I am glad that I am not the only one who sees the flaws in Miles' logic.
And just because something is a disease does not mean that you do not have responsibility for it. If you had chest pain from heart disease would you not have to watch your diet, take your medications and go to a doctor. Of course you would do things to keep the disease in check. So is the case with addiction - whether it is AA/NA meetings or seeing a therapist or whatever it is you do, these are things that you need to do to make sure that the disease or its symptoms don't get out of control. So you have control - otherwise all the people with heart disease would die of a heart attack.
I am not sure what more can be said to show you the other side.
But I too would like to hear your story of addiction to figure out why you can't or won't seem to grasp the disease concept of addiction.
mtlmd

[Miles]

Mtlmd:

"So you have control..." Precisely! Whether you realize it or not, you reinforce my point! [u]You </u>have control... not God, not AA, not the doctor/psychiatrist/therapist, not your mother, not your spouse... So, let's see, who here has the flawed logic?

Miles