Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 59
Opiate addiction & what makes us become addicted!!
  1. #1
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default Opiate addiction & what makes us become addicted!!




    What You Need To Know About Your Addiction
    Drug addiction is a medical illness. Informed physicians and other scientists recognize addiction as a medical illness. Many people make the error of considering drug addiction a personal choice or a personal shortcoming. "There's something wrong with any person who would use drugs," they say, and they don't mean it in an understanding manner. Well, they are partially correct because there is something wrong with a person who suffers from addiction but it isn't a personality issue or an issue of self-worth. A person who suffers with addiction has brain chemistry that doesn't function as it should and the reason it isn't working properly is due to an inherited gene. It is a disease very similar to clinical depression in its mechanism.
    About 98% of all human beings produce a certain brain-chemical that helps them tolerate pain and sever stress. This chemical increases pain tolerance and creates a sense of well-being. It makes a person believe they are going to be ok when things get uncomfortable. It is one reason why human beings can survive serious injury and stress. This brain-chemical is called morphine. Most people don't realize that all mammal brains make morphine(morphine allows a fox caught in a trap to chew off its leg, run away on 3 1/2 legs and survive to live another day. It allowed a young man who was rock climbing in a canyon to cut off his arm when it got caught between 2 rocks and trapped him for days until he was dying from exposure to the elements and starvation. So, what does this have to do with drug addiction?
    2% of all human beings don't make morphine. They don't make it cause they inherit a gene that doesn't allow the morphine system to work properly. These people feel pain worse than most and they don't generally deal with stress. But the real problem is that a person don't know they don't make morphine until its too late. As long as they never get an opiate or alcohol in their body there isn't a serious problem, although, the fact that they never feel quite right may lead them to use other mind-altering drugs like marijuana, cocaine, benzodiazepines (Zanax,Valium,etc.) or alcohol before they try an opiate. But the real proof of this genetic problem shows up when a person takes morphine or any other opiate and it energizes them, makes them feel more alert, better than they have ever felt before. This almost always means the individual has addiction genetics.
    Some people discover their addiction genetics when prescribed pain medication by a physician. Unfortunately too many physicians don't know that a patient should not like the feeling they get from an opiate. If they like the opiate, the drug needs to be stopped immediately and some non-narcotic painkiller prescribed in its place.
    Also the individual needs to be warned that they are carrying the gene that will cause addiction to alcohol or opiates or both. For some reason they are not yet clear to researchers, alcohol is also a great risk to people who carry this addiction gene.
    The 98% of humans whose brains do make morphine will generally feel sick when they take an opiate. Opiates will make them groggy or sleepy. These people will not like taking an opiate. They don't have the disease and can't get it. They can become chemically dependent on an opiate or any other drug that can cause chemical dependence(barbiturates,bezodiazepines,amphetamine s,cocaine) by using too much for too long, but once they suffer through the chemical withdrawals(nausea,vomiting,cramps,sweats,and even seizures), they don't crave the drug or need it anymore. They are done with it. So, we don't want to confuse chemical dependence with the disease of addiction. They are different and must be treated differently. And again, it's very difficult for someone who isn't carrying the addiction gene to become chemically dependent on opiates because if a person makes morphine properly in their brain, taking opiates will not make them feel good at all.
    So now you can understand why and how you become addicted to opiates. Your need for opiates is very similar to the need a diabetic has for insulin or the need a person with an under-active thyroid gland has for thyroid hormone. You have a need for opiates because your body doesn't make morphine or cannot properly use what it makes and it is normal for morphine to be present in every human body. This model of addiction is the way the disease should be perceived. It is this model that in the mid-nineteen-sixties led to the discovery that a potent long acting opiate called methadone could help people from suffering from addiction.
    Methadone is used to establish a steady safe blood level of opiate in a patient suffering from addiction so they will not crave opiates and so they can work, think, drive, raise their children, be a spouse, and a contributing member of the community. In short, the replacement of a normal needed body substance allows a person suffering from addiction to live a reasonably normal life. And because they feel better, they are able to work with a counselor and gain insight into their sickness so that many can eventually become sober(free of all drugs that can cause addiction) with the help of Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous.
    Overall, about 15% of patients who suffer with opiate addiction do achieve long-term sobriety. The number isn't higher because it isn't easy to get an remain sober but methadone maintenenance is also very successful as long-term treatment for those who are unable to maintain sobriety. About 35% of people who try methadone maintenance rehabilitation actually succeed at controlling their addiction. Generally speaking, the older a person suffering from addiction becomes the harder it is to become and stay sober. It is easiest for those under 30, hardest for those over 50. If you are under 30 and serious about getting sober it will generally take 18-24 months of treatment and hard work. As you get closer to 40 that timetable will increase. In my 40 yrs. of treating people with addiction I have not seen a patient over 52 years of age become and remain sober.
    But keep in mind that if you cannot succeed with sobriety(which is difficult and requires a lot of energy) there is no reason no to succeed with long-term methadone treatment. Have you ever heard anyone tell an insulin-dependent diabetic to just sop taking his/her
    insulin? If it is normal for a human being to make morphine in their brains but they don't because of an inherited disease, what is the difference between putting the morphine back inside compared to putting the insulin back inside? There is no difference except in the phobic view of some people who cannot recognize that addiction is a disease that is very similar to diabetes or clinical depression in that something necessary isn't being produced properly to the body.
    But there are other issues that can cloud this picture, other issues that feed the phobic erroneous view of addiction. Once a person develops the constant need for opiates that individual may also develop characteristics that enable him/her to obtain the opiates they now need or crave. For the most part these are not good qualities, often involving manipulative, maladaptive, anti-social, and self-destructive behavior. And sometimes when a person who suffers with addiction also suffers with other serious emotional disorders that become uncontrollable. They are mostly intoxicated by drugs and unsafe in normal environments. Such people cannot be helped in out-patient treatment settings. Their behavior spawns society's terrible lack of understanding and compassion for those who suffer from the disease of addiction. These people need intensive inpatient addiction and psychiatric care in a hospital setting. Unfortunately this kind of care is not widely available or affordable.

    Good Luck,

    J.M. Degross, M.D.
    Consulting Physician
    Specializing in Addiction and Treatment for 40 Years


  2. #2
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Guys, I am no Dr. buy any means, but this letter is from my current Dr. So, I just wanted to post it because I think it is a very, very informative & interesting letter. For those of you, who can't come clean with your parents, spouses, family, etc. or they just don't understand our disease "Addiction" This is a very good letter to print and show them. Good Luck to everyone!!!!!!!!![)] And, sorry the original posts was soooo long!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #3
    Jonesing is offline Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Miles is gonna have a field day with this !

    Jonesing

  4. #4
    nutballgirl is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    135

    Default

    jonesing, that was my thought exactly, lol! get ready for a LONG one! thanks for the post.
    susan

    "to laugh often and much, to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded!" -Emerson

  5. #5
    mpvt is offline Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Canada.
    Posts
    2,649

    Default

    This is an exellent article.It has been written so thatthe average joe can understand.This is the way I feel about addiction I could never find a way to say it.......Dave

  6. #6
    Miles is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    330

    Default

    Jonesing and NutballGirl:

    You called it! But I shall be brief.

    FairyGirl79, the drivel from your doctor is nothing but that... drivel. His/her license should be revoked for such pseudoscience. An "addiction gene?" Which one? There is "nothing wrong" with persons who use drugs - such an allegation is nothing but a moral judgement and has absolutely no grounding in medical science. Addiction is about behavior, not a bodily lesion or some mystical "addiction gene."

    Do yourself a favor and ask your doctor where addiction shows up in an autopsy - he/she did say it is a disease, right? I will be interested in his/her response.

    Miles


  7. #7
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    I will have to voice my opinion on this! Ask your Dr. where depression, bi-polar, mental illness, suicide, etc.etc.etc. shows up in an autopsy? I bet he/she will have no answer for this ither. Or, for that matter, are you a Dr? I do beleive I can reference more with a Dr. than just "some person" who posts on a site. Have you ever practised in the medical field of genetics or diseases, or have you ever been to school for any kind of medical license, didn't think so! I know that we all have our own opinons and everybody here is looking for an answer to their questions or else they wouldn't be here. I was just simply posting what a Dr. who studies ADDICTION,NEPHROLOGY,& PALLIATIVE CARE wants everyone to know about "Opiate Addiction"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually, I wanted to post it, because I thought everyone would appreciate the unknowing! I guess not! I never imagined that a post would cause such contraversy, well, well, was I in for a suprise? Everyone is in my thoughts and prayers, good luck!!!!!!!!!

  8. #8
    Miles is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    330

    Default

    Fairygirl79:

    Yes, yes, and yes. No properly trained physician ever espoused such tommyrot! I do not "appreciate" his tripe, nor do my colleagues. Someone graduates last in the class in every medical school - you may have found one!

    Miles (Not) "Some Person"

  9. #9
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    I'm pretty sure that their are some of your collegues that do appreciate the original post. I'm very sorry that some didn't. It was originally intended for answers that others have about their "disease". And I'm not sure that he is right, but even if he did graduate last in his class, he has studied for many,many years. And there are alot that do agree that it is a disease! According to studies that I have read, and have read numerous studies and books, it is a disease, and again that's my opinion. Sorry, you were offended by the post. It was not intended to be offend anyone. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and that was an educated opinion, not by me, but by an very well educated man. Good luck in life and all of its obstacles!!!!!

  10. #10
    Miles is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    330

    Default

    Fairygirl79:

    No need to apologize! Your doc is not alone in his "opinions." My colleagues and I see individuals every day who have been emotionally butchered by physicians with the same viewpoints as yours.

    For an informative debate on the topic of addiction (with both positions represented), you might want to read the following transcript: http://www.szasz.com/addiction.pdf. Another excellent source (representing my views and those of my colleagues) is at http://reason.com/0007/fe.js.curing.shtml.

    To your credit, you seem to be reading and searching for an understanding of the problems we all encounter in daily living. I only suggest that you keep an open mind and judge for yourself.

    Miles


  11. #11
    Jonesing is offline Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Fairygirl79,

    I'm sorry if I offended you, thats not what I meant to do. I don't know enough about the debate to discuss it with much knowledge. I have read many of Miles post about this subject, and know where he stands on it. He makes some good arguments, but sometimes comes across as harsh. I've heard other people make good points about a specific gene in addicts, but I just don't know enough about it to discuss intelligently. So, please don't be offended, I meant no harm.

    Jonesing

  12. #12
    boostm3 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Fairygirl, can you please tell me how I can get in touch with your doctor? Is he reachable on this forum? Elsewhere?

    Here's why. His statement:
    "As you get closer to 40 that timetable will increase. In my 40 yrs. of treating people with addiction I have not seen a patient over 52 years of age become and remain sober."


    I find this statement extremely fatalistic, and need some more info from him. .IF what he says is true, then Im most certainly going to ditch all thoughts of ever giving up methadone.. I mean, if in 40 years, hes seen NOBODY over 50 clean up successfully, then iM certainly not going to waste my time.. But before I come to that conclusion, I need to speak with him. Thanks.

  13. #13
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by boostm3

    Fairygirl, can you please tell me how I can get in touch with your doctor? Is he reachable on this forum? Elsewhere?

    Here's why. His statement:
    "As you get closer to 40 that timetable will increase. In my 40 yrs. of treating people with addiction I have not seen a patient over 52 years of age become and remain sober."


    I find this statement extremely fatalistic, and need some more info from him. .IF what he says is true, then Im most certainly going to ditch all thoughts of ever giving up methadone.. I mean, if in 40 years, hes seen NOBODY over 50 clean up successfully, then iM certainly not going to waste my time.. But before I come to that conclusion, I need to speak with him. Thanks.
    Boostm3,
    I'm sorry but, I've probably already stirred up enough **** on this site by posting the letter of his diagnosis. I know that everyone has their own opinions, but to me they are sounding pretty harsh about the topic. I don't know if it's the truth or not the truth, all I know is it was given to me by my Dr. whom I have been seeing for over 4 years now and can really relate to me and about 10,000 other people whom he see's on a daily basis. And for that matter, ALL Dr.'s will have a different opinion on the topic, PROBABLY. I mean, if your talking to a Dr. who has specialized in Addiction for over 40 yrs. and then you talk to your psychiatrist whom has also studied Psychiatry for 40 years, then of course each will have a different opinion on the topic, because ither does not know the other's field of study. I don't know what to say, maybe if your going to a methadone clinic yourself, then print this article and take it in to he/she and see what he/she says about the statement. I think I have already done wrong by not erasing his name off the bottom of the article, but I wanted it as original as I got it, so that everyone didn't think that some person on the site wrote it themselves. I also know that my Dr. studied in numerous states before coming to my state too. So, that may tell ya, that he has seen almost every state's political point of view on this matter and probably dealt with probably thousands if not millions of clients. My personal opinion, I believe every word he is saying, because it all seems to make sense to me, and who knows how many other people believe in this world, thousands? He stated to me as he did in the letter when I had my annual check-up in August that I am under 30, so I have a pretty good chance of beating the addiction, if not then I'm one of those who do have the genetic gene. It's worth giving a try! As far as my husband goes, he will probably need something for the rest of his life, and that's a whole different story, he was paralized for a while and is now re-walking, from a horrible car accident, now he has titanium cages and rods in his back, so basically he's going to have pain for the rest of his life, and this has been told to us by many, many consulting physicians that he has been a patient of. So, for him, it would be best to be on methadone as to pain pills for the rest of his life. And our Dr. does encourage us to try and see if we can get off the methadone, he said "if we can and stay clean for 5 yrs. Great"! "If we can stay clean for the rest of our lives, Great"! But, if we do try and we can't stay clean then we do have the addiction gene and he will be there for us when we do relapse. As of now, he has already got both me and my husband on a detox plan to see if we can make it work. So, the point of this is, he's not there to rob us of anything, he's there to help us and care for us, or else he wouldn't be so kind.

  14. #14
    PoppyQueen is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    165

    Default

    I'm a couple years away from 52 so I hope I have a chance. Jeez. As I look over my years the time I was straight for the longest period of time is when I was working out regularly. When I started using regularly, my exercise routine went out the door.

    Now my husband will be 52 next year. He drinks too much (binge drinking) but he's not an alcoholic, takes a Valium daily, and he smokes too much. I hope he can beat all these. He just started working out again. He's trying to quit everything, too.

    I'm beginning to see it may be the only way for us to beat all this stuff. Once you start respecting your body you may not want to poison it. When I was working out I had less back pain, too.

    Just thinking out loud. Always looking for an answer.
    PQ

  15. #15
    PoppyQueen is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Hey Fairy Girl, what does your doctor think about Suboxone. My psych. has suggested that some people stay on it for life. I wonder if that will be my fate. It doesn't seem too far fetched to me.
    PQ

  16. #16
    boostm3 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    16

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by PoppyQueen

    I'm a couple years away from 52 so I hope I have a chance. Jeez. As I look over my years the time I was straight for the longest period of time is when I was working out regularly. When I started using regularly, my exercise routine went out the door.

    Now my husband will be 52 next year. He drinks too much (binge drinking) but he's not an alcoholic, takes a Valium daily, and he smokes too much. I hope he can beat all these. He just started working out again. He's trying to quit everything, too.

    I'm beginning to see it may be the only way for us to beat all this stuff. Once you start respecting your body you may not want to poison it. When I was working out I had less back pain, too.

    Just thinking out loud. Always looking for an answer.
    PQ
    the fact that hes started working out really helps.. I started last january, and am still going to the gym 5 days a wk. Im wt lifting, doing a body part per day. the aches and pains I had developed in my lower back and shoulder are totally gone, and I look so much better, with fat being replaced by muscle. Ive quit drinking booze and smoking cigs in the last couple of years, and if this is possible, how is it that that doctor says hes never seen any addict clean up after 50.. that just sounds like so much bull, or, hes been dealing with a very limited population it seems to me.

    Fairygirl, whether your post of that letter stirred up trouble or not, the fact is, you DID post it, and now you owe it to us to give us his email address, and allow us to obtain further information.. To just post a potentially damaging letter like that, and then cut off our ability to follow up re our own treatment relative to his statements is unconscionable.. Please reconsider... youve opened the can of worms .. at least, help close it, by posting a way to email him for followup questions.

    >>So, the point of this is, he's not there to rob us of anything, he's there to help us and care for us, or else he wouldn't be so kind<<

    If hes there to help, then he wont mind fielding questions about his assertion that hes never seen anyone clean up after 50 yrs old. IVe quit smoking and drinking booze after 50, but i guess that doesnt count, since his statements were directed at opiate addiction, I presume.. Since hes seen so many patients, as you confirm, his assertion carries weight. Ive been contemplating detoxing from 90 mg methadone after 15 yrs.. But, this new information changes that... Clearly, with all his experience, he should know.. Ill be damned if im going to go down that path if its only going to lead to failure. But before i make this decision, I need to speak to him. If you wont provide this, then delete that letter.. its not fair to present it, but not allow followup.

  17. #17
    Miles is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    330

    Default

    To all wishing to contact the alleged Dr. Degross:

    You are wasting your time seeking any useful information from him. Any physician who alleges "A person who suffers with addiction has brain chemistry that doesn't function as it should and the reason it isn't working properly is due to an inherited gene" obviously failed Genetics 101 in med school.

    His letter to Fairygirl is riddled with tripe. One of his more flagrant assertions, "Also the individual needs to be warned that they are carrying the gene that will cause addiction to alcohol or opiates or both," is not far removed from witchcraft. There is absolutely no medical evidence to support such piffle!

    The doctor's epistle reads like a first-year med student's last minute attempt at writing an issue paper. For that, he deserves an "F" and should be advised to change to a more appropriate major... Parapsychology or the study of Voodoo. Other nonsensical allegations of his are too numerous to cite in this posting.

    Miles

  18. #18
    boostm3 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    16

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by Miles

    To all wishing to contact the alleged Dr. Degross:

    You are wasting your time seeking any useful information from him. Any physician who alleges "A person who suffers with addiction has brain chemistry that doesn't function as it should and the reason it isn't working properly is due to an inherited gene" obviously failed Genetics 101 in med school.

    His letter to Fairygirl is riddled with tripe. One of his more flagrant assertions, "Also the individual needs to be warned that they are carrying the gene that will cause addiction to alcohol or opiates or both," is not far removed from witchcraft. There is absolutely no medical evidence to support such piffle!

    The doctor's epistle reads like a first-year med student's last minute attempt at writing an issue paper. For that, he deserves an "F" and should be advised to change to a more appropriate major... Parapsychology or the study of Voodoo. Other nonsensical allegations of his are too numerous to cite in this posting.

    Miles
    Miles, I visited the debate forum you linked in your last response.. Interesting stuff, there. Its an age-old debate regarding free-will and its place in modern society. Szasz' position is clearly that taken by libertarians; the other side is clearly that of traditional liberals. And whether its about drugs, or any other social or economic issue, the approach of each 'side' is consistant.

    Back to the doctor's letter that headed this thread. Simply stated, I cannot see any responsible physician who's active in the field stating categorically that "In my 40 yrs. of treating people with addiction I have not seen a patient over 52 years of age become and remain sober." I ought to start my detox just to prove him wrong. It certainly provides a challenge and a good dose of motivation. In my case, I really dont have much desire to detox from methadone at this point. Ive done well with its 'help'.. Gone back to school and earned a masters degree, and a bunch of other stuff. Main thing is, why if im doing well do I want to detox. Regardless, that is something I will have to come to grips with, the good doctor's statement notwithstanding. I find it irresponsible in the extreme, though. Its such a fatalistic statement, though, that its hard to see how hes dedicated to helping addicts with such an approach. Ive quit smoking and drinking already. I wonder if hes never seen those two addictions conquered either.

    Here's something I didnt know:

    "Most people don't realize that all mammal brains make morphine....2% of all human beings don't make morphine. They don't make it cause they inherit a gene that doesn't allow the morphine system to work properly. These people feel pain worse than most and they don't generally deal with stress. But the real problem is that a person don't know they don't make morphine until its too late"

    We make morphine in our brains? I knew we made Endorphins. But we ALSO make Morphine? Is he equating endorphins to Morphine? Heres a dictionary definition of endorphin:

    "Any of a group of peptide hormones that bind to opiate receptors and are found mainly in the brain. Endorphins reduce the sensation of pain and affect emotions."

    Sounds to me like he is calling endorphin Morphine. This is not techincally sound, is it? What about this 2% of the population deficient in the Morphine Producing Gene?!!! He says its presence may be detected by ingesting an opiate, and if you like the sensation, instead of feeling numb and tired, then this is evidence that you are among the 2% with the morphine deficient gene.. I dont know, Miles, but this sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo, doesnt it?

    Even if it were said that we all produce endorphins, but some of us feel pain more than others, what about the monks in the far east, who are able to train themselves to lower their body temperature, experience extraordinary amounts of pain, etc, etc, through extreme training and mind control. how would he explain these folks..

    I think removing all free will from the discussion, as he seems to be doing, is very harmful for those he claims he is trying to help. And as far as his claim that any large population segment has shown itself to be totally incapable of giving up drugs goes, >> throw it out with the bathwater.

  19. #19
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by PoppyQueen

    Hey Fairy Girl, what does your doctor think about Suboxone. My psych. has suggested that some people stay on it for life. I wonder if that will be my fate. It doesn't seem too far fetched to me.
    PQ
    He has recommended us to go the suboxone route, but we have to detox to 50mg before doing so. I've been looking online about the topic and it seems to be a good way to go. But, I've already had alot of friends that have been there done that and back in the meth clinic. I may try it myself, it just scares me that if i do, then I'm quitting my clinic with 2 weeks takehome and can have a month if I want. So, if it didn't work for me, then I would have to start form ground zero AGAIN! I did look on the sites that others have given me on the topic of suboxone and that site also states that "Addiction is a Disease". I don't know, just reading what i see. I do believe myself that it is a disease, because it states it very loud and clear in this article that I was told to read, but still others don't. But as I've stated in many other of my replies, I'm just voicing my own opinion and I know what's best for me and actually came to this site to get more answers, and don't seem to be getting cooperation, just contraversy. Sorry, I can't help!!!! But, I do beleive if you set your mind on anything, that you can do it! Good Luck!!!

  20. #20
    Miles is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    330

    Default

    Boostm3:

    Your insights are keen. I know some physicians who are as equally irresponsible as Dr. Degross, but in all fairness, they may have been duped by drug manufacturers. It is nigh impossible to stay abreast of the literature these days. Compounding the physician's dilemma is the excessive amount of research that is sponsored by drug manufacturers that fails to meet the rigorous standards of solid science. The "search for the truth" has been usurped by the "pursuit of the market share." Who suffers as a result? The patients!

    Re the brain's production of morphine, you are correct. Endorphins are the body's natural opiates. Endorphins flood the space between nerve cells and usually inhibit neurons from firing, thus creating an analgesic effect. On a lower level they can excite neurons as well. When endorphins do their work, the organism feels good, high, or euphoric, and feels relief from pain [analgesia]. Logically, endorphin levels go up when a person exercises, goes into labor, or is stressed out. Although they seem to be triggered by stress, endorphins can do more than relieve pain, they actually make us feel good. Dr. Degross is just flat out wrong in his writings. Regrettably, I cannot explain to you why he penned such drivel, although I have my suspicions.

    And yes, his fatalistic age 52 threshold for sobriety gives me grave concern. "52?" Doesn't that seem like an odd demarcation line, not to mention the mere foolishness of such a proposition? I wonder how he would respond if asked, "What physiological changes occur in the human body circa age 52 in support of your argument?" Once again, the more I read his letter the more I am convinced he graduated last in his med school class, if he in fact graduated at all.

    You raise a critical point in your comments about the removal of free will. And you are right on target... absent free will, we really are pinballs bouncing around in a huge pinball machine. Some indeed find it comforting to explain all human behavior in reductionist terms, i.e., reducing all human behavior to genetic programming. Unfortunately, I know too many physicians who share that view as well. Now that's really frightening!

    Regards,
    Miles

  21. #21
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by boostm3

    quote:Originally posted by PoppyQueen

    I'm a couple years away from 52 so I hope I have a chance. Jeez. As I look over my years the time I was straight for the longest period of time is when I was working out regularly. When I started using regularly, my exercise routine went out the door.

    Now my husband will be 52 next year. He drinks too much (binge drinking) but he's not an alcoholic, takes a Valium daily, and he smokes too much. I hope he can beat all these. He just started working out again. He's trying to quit everything, too.

    I'm beginning to see it may be the only way for us to beat all this stuff. Once you start respecting your body you may not want to poison it. When I was working out I had less back pain, too.

    Just thinking out loud. Always looking for an answer.
    PQ
    the fact that hes started working out really helps.. I started last january, and am still going to the gym 5 days a wk. Im wt lifting, doing a body part per day. the aches and pains I had developed in my lower back and shoulder are totally gone, and I look so much better, with fat being replaced by muscle. Ive quit drinking booze and smoking cigs in the last couple of years, and if this is possible, how is it that that doctor says hes never seen any addict clean up after 50.. that just sounds like so much bull, or, hes been dealing with a very limited population it seems to me.

    Fairygirl, whether your post of that letter stirred up trouble or not, the fact is, you DID post it, and now you owe it to us to give us his email address, and allow us to obtain further information.. To just post a potentially damaging letter like that, and then cut off our ability to follow up re our own treatment relative to his statements is unconscionable.. Please reconsider... youve opened the can of worms .. at least, help close it, by posting a way to email him for followup questions.

    >>So, the point of this is, he's not there to rob us of anything, he's there to help us and care for us, or else he wouldn't be so kind<<

    If hes there to help, then he wont mind fielding questions about his assertion that hes never seen anyone clean up after 50 yrs old. IVe quit smoking and drinking booze after 50, but i guess that doesnt count, since his statements were directed at opiate addiction, I presume.. Since hes seen so many patients, as you confirm, his assertion carries weight. Ive been contemplating detoxing from 90 mg methadone after 15 yrs.. But, this new information changes that... Clearly, with all his experience, he should know.. Ill be damned if im going to go down that path if its only going to lead to failure. But before i make this decision, I need to speak to him. If you wont provide this, then delete that letter.. its not fair to present it, but not allow followup.
    Boostm3, I'm so sorry that everyone has been so offended by this letter, I just thought that the letter was a great letter and everyone would enjoy reading it. Like I said in an earlier post, I am no Dr. by any means and don't know much about all these other things that you and miles are referencing to, saying the Dr. who wrote this letter is wrong and by no means should even be practising. All I know, is that he is my Dr. at the moment and has been for a little over 4 yrs. so I thought he knew what he was talking about and I believed it too. It just makes sense! And as far as him stating that he has never seen anyone clean up over the age of 50, he is referring to opiate addiction. That's what the letter is about! And, for one, I do not have this Dr.'s e-mail address,and would not ask for it, because I have no intentions on e-mailing him and he can talk to me in person instead of on the web. And secondly, you are asking a lot from me. I go to this clinic and could be kicked out over a "silly letter" that i posted on a site on the internet for many people that need answers to their qusetions, and I thought this letter answered alot of my questions that I was still needing answers to, so I thought it would benefit evryone else also. This actually violates the Dr's privacy for me to post something without asking anyway and I didn't think it would turn out with such contaversy or ither would I have ever posted it or didn't think of his privacy from the beginning ither. I really thought that many would respect the fact that soemone out there had an actual letter written from an addiction specialist that they could read, and again I thought it was an informative letter, maybe I'm not sooo smart after all. Was just trying to help and give that help to others. If anyone can find ou how to erase it, erase it! I don't post much because I don't have the time, but I do like to read others stories and any kind of information anyone can give me on addiction. Also, Miles the web-sites you gave me to look at also states that addiction is a "disease"! I don't know about you, but what i read is somewhat what I tend to beleive, especially if it's a site about "opiate addiction" also.

  22. #22
    boostm3 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    16

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by fairygirl79
    Boostm3, I'm so sorry that everyone has been so offended by this letter, I just thought that the letter was a great letter and everyone would enjoy reading it. Like I said in an earlier post, I am no Dr. by any means and don't know much about all these other things that you and miles are referencing to, saying the Dr. who wrote this letter is wrong and by no means should even be practising. All I know, is that he is my Dr. at the moment and has been for a little over 4 yrs. so I thought he knew what he was talking about and I believed it too. It just makes sense! And as far as him stating that he has never seen anyone clean up over the age of 50, he is referring to opiate addiction. That's what the letter is about! And, for one, I do not have this Dr.'s e-mail address,and would not ask for it, because I have no intentions on e-mailing him and he can talk to me in person instead of on the web. And secondly, you are asking a lot from me. I go to this clinic and could be kicked out over a "silly letter" that i posted on a site on the internet for many people that need answers to their qusetions, and I thought this letter answered alot of my questions that I was still needing answers to, so I thought it would benefit evryone else also. This actually violates the Dr's privacy for me to post something without asking anyway and I didn't think it would turn out with such contaversy or ither would I have ever posted it or didn't think of his privacy from the beginning ither. I really thought that many would respect the fact that soemone out there had an actual letter written from an addiction specialist that they could read, and again I thought it was an informative letter, maybe I'm not sooo smart after all. Was just trying to help and give that help to others. If anyone can find ou how to erase it, erase it! I don't post much because I don't have the time, but I do like to read others stories and any kind of information anyone can give me on addiction. Also, Miles the web-sites you gave me to look at also states that addiction is a "disease"! I don't know about you, but what i read is somewhat what I tend to beleive, especially if it's a site about "opiate addiction" also.
    Fairygirl, Im sure you meant no harm.. but frankly, if youre unwilling to provide contact information for your source, then I would strongly advise you to delete this letter.. If you have any sensitivity whatsoever, you will see the troubling nature of his statement regarding the futility of cleaning up if youre over 52 yrs old... Im smart enough, and independant enough to not pay that much credence.. But not everybody who is over 50 has the amount of schooling and experience that I have, and believe me, this statement is going to hurt them plenty. So I implore you, either provide info so the doctor may explain himself, or delete the letter. Besides, if you could get kicked out for posting the letter, now even if you dont care about the deleterious effects it could have, you at least have your own self interest to think about.

    >>anyone can find ou how to erase it, erase it!<<

    Ah.. good... you should be able to do this yourself.. Go to the thread that contains the letter, and go to your post that contains it.. There are 4 or 5 icons across the top.. drag your mouse across them.. one of them will say 'delete' the entry.. there you have it.. IF that doesnt work, contact hoss, the board mod, and tell him you wish to delete it. Whenever a post like this is made that quotes a source that winds up raising more questions than it answers, if the source isnt available to explain himself, its usually just better to get rid of it, especially if it contains questionable and negative information wrt people's recovery.. its the humane thing to do.. ...

    quote:Originally posted by MILES And yes, his fatalistic age 52 threshold for sobriety gives me grave concern. "52?" Doesn't that seem like an odd demarcation line, not to mention the mere foolishness of such a proposition? I wonder how he would respond if asked, "What physiological changes occur in the human body circa age 52 in support of your argument?"
    My hunch is that the reason he uses 52 as the cutoff between the ability to recover and not is probably because hes had experience with a 51 yr old having a successful recovery, but not a 52 yr old.. or older.. >> love to ask him, how many post 52 yr olds hes had experience 'treating'! At the risk of rampant repetition, I can understand fairygirl's naivte wrt the negative consequences of posting drivel like that.. But the doctor? No. he doesnt skate quite so easily [}] Besides, if this is the good doctor's experience, perhaps hes raising more of a question about his ability to treat, rather than any physiological characteristics held by 52 yr olds, but absent from 51 yr olds.. its too ludicrous to continue..

  23. #23
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    I know how to delete the topic, but wht did you have to come across so harshly about deleting? Is it because the letter offended you that badly. I feel like for one time in your life, maybe you have came acoss something that has some truth to it. And for you to say, that I should give you info. & it shouldn't matter if I got kicked out of the clinic, that's indaspicable!!!!!!!!! So, what if someone told you that they were going to take your methadone from you today, you wouldn't like it to well, would ya? And as far as giving you info. abou this Dr., I really don't have any info. The only info. I have myself, is his name, where he works, and the # to the clinic. And as far as calling, you can't just up and call any doctor and expect them to talk to you on the phone, unless you are one of his patients or it's an emergency situation. You have to have an appointment with any Dr. to talk with them. Let me think on it today, and I may possibly give you some info. so that you and your collegues can get your questions you have for him answered. You know, I have to think about the consequences in me giving out someone else's personal information. And as far as deleting the letter, I will, but not at the moment, because I have some others that are going to read the posts and replies that were made. Until then, I won't! Because for the simple fact, that there are others out there that will find this info. helpful!

  24. #24
    boostm3 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    16

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by fairygirl79

    I know how to delete the topic, but wht did you have to come across so harshly about deleting? Is it because the letter offended you that badly. I feel like for one time in your life, maybe you have came acoss something that has some truth to it. And for you to say, that I should give you info. & it shouldn't matter if I got kicked out of the clinic, that's indaspicable!!!!!!!!! So, what if someone told you that they were going to take your methadone from you today, you wouldn't like it to well, would ya? And as far as giving you info. abou this Dr., I really don't have any info. The only info. I have myself, is his name, where he works, and the # to the clinic. And as far as calling, you can't just up and call any doctor and expect them to talk to you on the phone, unless you are one of his patients or it's an emergency situation. You have to have an appointment with any Dr. to talk with them. Let me think on it today, and I may possibly give you some info. so that you and your collegues can get your questions you have for him answered. You know, I have to think about the consequences in me giving out someone else's personal information. And as far as deleting the letter, I will, but not at the moment, because I have some others that are going to read the posts and replies that were made. Until then, I won't! Because for the simple fact, that there are others out there that will find this info. helpful!
    Fairygirl, all the answers to your questions are contained in my numerous post responses to you. IM not going to repeat myself.

    >>I know how to delete the topic<<
    If you know how to delete it, then why did you just ask: "If anyone can find ou how to erase it, erase it!" ?????

    This is the last IM going to say on it.. At this point I really dont care what you do with it.. But your own mature, rational, common sense should tell you that if youre going to post something from a doctor, addressed to a significant population reading it, that is telling them essentially that attempting to clean up is useless, because hes never seen anybody do it successfully, for you NOT to expect to be grilled on it is shortsighted to say the least, miopic in the extreme. Do with it what you want, but realize that instead of helping people, youre doing a tremendous disservice if anyone takes his comments seriously. I dont know what the purpose in his statement was. If it was directed to you personally, then you also betrayed a trust from him if you didnt get permission to repost it.. You already admitted your clinic might toss you if they knew you posted it.. Seems to me that on all counts, you were in error in posting this, even if you seem to think of yourself as some kind of pioneer, publishing without permission controversial and untested, undefended material. Its academically bankrupt. >> like to see his comments stand up before peer review.. this notion about an Addict Gene is so far out there that it in itself is so unproven and unsupported that it alone should have given you pause before posting .. Advocating behind it, as you have done, is even worse. I dont know what your educational background is, but I doubt its beyond the highschool level. Whether you realize it or not, by posting it, and supporting it, and not deleting it despite its untested content, you are in your way advocating it.

    Thats my position. I stand behind it.. And Im pretty sure that if there are any other scientifically trained personnel reading this, they'll agree.

    But even if you reposted without permission, to me, the most serious mistake youre committing is publishing something here, from a doctor, telling people over 52, that this doctor has never seen anybody in this age group successfully clean up from opiate addiction. This is Such a controversial statement, affecting so many, that without providing a source allowing patients in this population to find out more information in support of this highly controversial statement, that it should be taken down on this one point alone. You dont even need a scientific background to tell you this; common sense would do it. Even if you believe it to be true.. what possible good can come of posting it? Without more information on the subject, it places a dagger right into the hearts and minds of people in this group trying their hardest to clean up. Its telling them that no matter how hard they try, this doctor has nonetheless never seen anybody do it. IT BEGS for supporting documentation. I have enough background to know that doctors are fallible.. But, alot of less educated folks take what ever comes out of any doctor's mouth as the gosple .. Its these folks who will be most negatively effected by this comment. While I agree with most of what Miles says, my main objection to this posting of yours is just what I said... its injurious to the attempts of detoxing opiate patients to clean up; its contraindicated. If nobody has ever done it, then whats the point?! Thats the msg your promoting by leaving this up.

  25. #25
    lulu12 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    34

    Default

    This is very informative! Thanks, the good dr. shouldnt shoot out this note without making it clear that it's his opinion because that note doesnt seem to factual.

    Desaree

    speak kindly! Karma my friend!

  26. #26
    mamaknows is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Miles, I new to this whole talking-to-unseen-others thing AKA the forum. When it comes to autopsies they are not the end all of knowledge. There is alot of supposition. But the thing I wanted to ask you is: In an autopsy, is it possible to show where the SA node in the heart is? I will tell you. No. The SA node is a very vital part of the workings of the heart. It is the part of the heart where the rate is set. But it cannot be seen. Me thinks maybe a different analogy or something. Mamaknows

  27. #27
    Miles is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    330

    Default

    mamaknows:

    I have seen several Sinoatrial nodes in the upper section of the right atrium of the heart, both in the dead and in the living. However, I have never seen addiction or mental illness at autopsy.

    Miles

  28. #28
    fairygirl79 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Hey guys, to help sum up the topic of what the Dr. said about him not ever seeing a patient over the age of 52 in his 40 years of medicine. I asked him what he meant by that, and he said that he has never seen anyone over the age of 52 become clean on "His" 12-step program. And the letter wasn't just intended for me, it was given to all patients that go to the medical clinic. I just thought it was a good letter to post, because everybody has a question as to why they are addicted and I thought it was some good info. But, that was my opinion on it. I'm not educated enough on the topic to really argue with it, I am an RN, but not a DR. so I don't have enough education on this very topic to really argue with the opinions of others. Miles, now that I have read alot of your posts, I do believe that you are a Dr. now, so to you, I am sorry about ever questioning you on it! But, I do have a queston for you, are you also addicted to anything, or are you just on here to help others with questions they have?

  29. #29
    boostm3 is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    16

    Default

    >> I asked him what he meant by that, and he said that he has never seen anyone over the age of 52 become clean on "His" 12-step program.<<

    Well, THATS DIFFERENT!!!!! Being an atheist, I can tell you those faith-based recovery programs would never work for me. But thats a far cry from saying hes never seen anyone in that age group succeed in cleaning up after an opiate replacement therapy program. Good thing you cleared that up, because the impression the reader is left with is that he was referring to all treatment modalities. Now that we see his comments are limited to faith based programs, and specfically, a 12 stepper, it carries much less weight as far as Im concerned. We already know empirically that methadone programs are far more successful than 12 step programs at dealing with opiate addiction. His statements do nothing to alter that impression. Its good that you posted this 'qualification' to his letter..

  30. #30
    dizzy23 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    537

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by Jonesing

    Miles is gonna have a field day with this !

    Jonesing

    []Just read this post and also just read some post Miles wrote about his view on addictions,you are so right,I'm sure he loved this letter from Dr.Degross.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22