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Need support/advice w/ Sub Tapering
  1. #1
    Tess137 is offline New Member
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    Exclamation Need support/advice w/ Sub Tapering

    Hi everyone,

    I'm brand new to this site. This is my first post. Hope this is a good place for my thread... I'd like to start some kind of Sub therapy tomorrow, but really need some guidance along the way, or a little push in the right direction...

    I read Robert's page on Suboxone/subutex therapy and it did make sense to me, I guess I'm just unsure of doing it on my own...

    So I guess I'll start with my usage up until this point. I've been doing >>>>>> for about 4 years (mostly IV), and have been using intravenously everyday for the past ONE year... I've been doing less than half a gram daily and for the last couple weeks I've been down to about .2 or .3 every day. And while that doesn't seem like much, I haven't been able to make it even ONE day without it in over a year... My experience with W/D's haven't been too great... So I just picked up a couple Suboxone. I could only get my hands on 4 (8-mg) Subs, so this is why I kinda need help figuring out how to make it last.

    Just any advice would be greatly appreciated. I know to wait until I have a score of 26 on the COWS sheet before I begin taking the subs. But wondering what to do after that.
    Also I'm not even sure how to break these pills up into anything more than fourths and if I want to take small doses (.5 mg) I'm gonna have to break the pill up into even smaller pieces and it seems to just disintegrate after it's in 4 pieces (which is 2 mg each)... So I'm not sure about that either...

    Any help is greatly appreciated!!

  2. #2
    NoFear23 is offline Junior Member
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    is there any way you can get more then 4? if not then following the taper you read is pointless and you will not have nearly enough to follow that plan. if not let me kno and ill tell you another plan which isnt as good as the taper youve read but will be better then nothing.

  3. #3
    Tess137 is offline New Member
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    No, I don't have access to or even the money for more... I just thought maybe 2mg a day with 4 8-mg pills would give me at least 16 days on subs, and on Robert's Sub therapy page it says you shouldn't be on them more than a week or two anyway. I've taken subs a few days in the past and it seemed to take very little to relieve symptoms. I don't plan on taking more than a couple mg's a day anyway. You don't think a week or so of spreading out the 4 8-mg's would be helpful?
    Or maybe that's not the BEST way with the little bit that I have? I might be better off with your other plan then...

    I'll take any advice at this point.

  4. #4
    Tess137 is offline New Member
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    I was rereading the Suboxone therapy page and it says to take the lowest possible dose that relieves symptoms (usually no more than 3-4 mg's/a day) for about 4 days and between 4 days and up to about a week, you can begin tapering. So I will have only gone through a pill or two by the time I could start tapering. And then I'd have 16 mg (from the 2 remaining pills) to take at a rate that is less than 3-4 mg's a day. With less than 3 mg/a day, you don't think 2 8-mg pills would be enough to taper? The tapering process must take a lot longer than I think then... hmmm..

  5. #5
    Strong Desire is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess137 View Post
    I was rereading the Suboxone therapy page and it says to take the lowest possible dose that relieves symptoms (usually no more than 3-4 mg's/a day) for about 4 days and between 4 days and up to about a week, you can begin tapering. So I will have only gone through a pill or two by the time I could start tapering. And then I'd have 16 mg (from the 2 remaining pills) to take at a rate that is less than 3-4 mg's a day. With less than 3 mg/a day, you don't think 2 8-mg pills would be enough to taper? The tapering process must take a lot longer than I think then... hmmm..
    Hi Tess,

    Welcome to the forum. I used Robert's sub therapy plan recently and I'm now been clean for a little over a month from a 7 year addiction. I abused mostly narcotic pain medication, but did use all the other lovely substances including coke, methadone, fentanyl patches, and H.

    I do believe you misunderstood Robert's plan a bit. If you go and read my thread here you will see that my induction and taper went absolutely perfect. I had no problems or symptoms at all. I used the plan the shortest you possibly could. And it took me 35 days, or exactly 5 weeks from my very first dose until my last of the sub. I even tapered every 3 DAYS instead of every 4 or so as the plan advises. I did this again because of no problems or symptoms. But I am in the very limited few that has happened too. Most everyone else here has had some type of trouble, problems, or symptoms with either the induction, the taper, or both of them. Everyone is different so what works for one, may not be the same for everyone else. I was so lucky, and blessed to get through it so quickly.

    So if you are going to be using the sub therapy plan as advertised, it is going to take you approximately 6-8 weeks or so. Maybe less, maybe more? So you do not have enough of the subs to do it as the plan advises.. But the plan is not written in stone either. You can alter it to fit your own individual needs. As long as you can induct yourself at a low enough dose, and taper it down regularly, you can make it work. It doesn't matter really how you get clean, only that you do!

    Sub is extremely strong and powerful. A tiny bit goes a long, long way.

    I had the 8mg pills also. What I did was to cut them up until I had (4) - 2mg pieces. Then I used a sheet of typing paper and the back of a kitchen spoon to crush one of those 2mg pieces into a fine powder. Then from there you can separate that pile of powder into 4 equal piles of .25mg each. If I can do it, I'm certain that you can too! Just eyeball it and that would be close enough. And from those .25mg piles you can get any dose you will need.

    And use some aluminum foil, or something similar to store the crushed powder in. Keep it marked as to what dose is in it or you will forget how much it is at some point. Or at least I did and was so glad I wrote how much was in each piece of foil. It really is very simple if you relax, and take your time.

    So hope this info helps you, and just know that you CAN do this Tess! You will get lots of support here. It's usually slow on weekends, but on weekdays it picks up quite a bit. Glad you posted and please keep doing so. Use this as your journal to look back on and see how you did, and how far you've come. Again welcome to you and let me know if I can be of further help.

    Hugs,
    Karen

  6. #6
    Strong Desire is offline Advanced Member
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    Something else Tess that came to mind. You have to really, really WANT THIS this! We can give you all the encouragement, suggestions, and support you will ever need, but if you really don't WANT IT, it doesn't matter in the least. You have to put your getting clean above all else.

    And getting clean really is the easy part. I got clean many, many times, only to relapse every time. I would strongly recommend that you go to some NA, AA, or CR meetings for additional support. There should be some in your immediate area if you just google it.

    My way of getting clean, and STAYING clean was not working, so I knew I had to do something very different. So I searched and found a NA meeting right down the street that meets in the very early morning hours that works for my schedule. You can too. AA is basically the same as NA because they both use the 12-step method. CR is a Christian-based group if you're wanting to use that. Doesn't matter which one, but I would suggest going to one and seeing how you like it. I really love going and have met some awesome people. I now have my sponsor in place and doing great right now.

    That's because I WANT IT so bad Tess! That's really what it takes to get and stay clean in my opinion!

    You CAN do this!

    Karen

  7. #7
    Strong Desire is offline Advanced Member
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    Sorry Tess, but something else I thought of. Go at this (getting clean) as hard as you did going out and finding your drug of choice. I know if you were anything like me, I could ALWAYS find a way to score some of what I wanted. So maybe if you use that same approach, you could get more of the subs? Again, you have to WANT IT really bad!

    I don't know what alternate method No Fear is speaking of using the subs you now have? They can speak with you about that part. There will be members with other suggestions and opinions for you soon. You decide how you will get clean. Like I said earlier, doesn't matter how you do it, it only matters that you do!

    Karen

  8. #8
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Okay Tess, you have 32mg. total. Follow what Karen did to get your pills cut down to the smallest pieces possible:

    You need to cut the 8mg into 4 pieces than each of those four pieces into two. You may have to crush the 1/4 piece and divide into two 1mg. piles. If you can, divide each of those 1mg. piles in half. You will then have two .5 mg. piles, you can divide the .5mg into two piles to get .25mg. You got this so far?

    Get this all set up ahead of time. Get a COWS worksheet from the internet and make sure you get to a score of 26. Take one of the .25 piles and put it under your tongue. Wait 1 1/2 to 2 hours and see how you feel. If you're still in w/d after that time, take another .25 pile. again wait 1 1/2 to 2 hours and see how you feel, repeat until you feel "normal", hopefully at 1mg. or .75 mg. you'll feel normal. After you get stable post and let us know what mg. you're stable on. Then begin your taper.

    The trick for you will be to try to induct at the lowest possible dose. You may not be able to get a full taper in and may have to taper faster than normal, but you may be able to abate the w/d's. If you could get more that would be best, but if you want to do this with subs and not go c/t, we'll try to get you down pretty fast. You will have some w/d. most likely. but we can try to get you down far enough that the w/d will be tolerable.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

    PS. Nofear may have a real good idea how to deal this small dose, a plan B as it were. So let us know.

  9. #9
    Tess137 is offline New Member
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    Karen and Iloerose-
    Thank you for your insight and experience. I didn't realize I should take doses THAT small, I think just because even 1/4 of it looked so tiny, I didn't realize how potent it actually is.

    I waited til about 22 hrs after my last dose, with a score of 26 on the COWS, before I started the "induction". I hadn't read these posts when I started though so I had only split them into 1 mg. pieces. So I took 2 mgs. today about 12 hours ago.

    I was also wondering if I need to wait til I'm in moderate to severe W/d's again before I take a second dose? Like is it as important as that first dose being taken too soon and creating prec. w/d's.? I've gone 12 hrs and I'm still feeling okay (probably b/c I gave myself 2 mg's, but now I know to take less). I'm going to try and wait another 10-12 hrs before I have to wake up and go to class before I take my second dose. If you guys read this before I get to this second dose, how much do you think I should take on the second day if I started with 2 mgs? Keep it at .5 mg increments every hour?

    I guess I'll just be quickening the Sub tapering process with the little amount I have... I'm going to try and get a couple more if I can though... We'll see.

    I'm really surprised to hear that using such small amounts of suboxone- anywhere from 2 mg's down to .25 mgs. can lead to withdrawals FROM the SUBS themselves. Originally I had thought I'd be able to take very small amounts of suboxone for about a week, just lowering the dose to .25mg by the end of that week. Is it really possible to WITHDRAW from something you've only taken a couple times over the course of a few days? It doesn't seem like that would even happen if you did >>>>>> three days in a row... Right? You wouldn't feel TOO horrible on that third day. Like you wouldn't be withdrawing from it after three days, just maybe have a hangover. Physical dependence, which is what creates the W/d's, usually takes a bit longer than a week, wouldn't it? I don't know, just some thoughts...

    But anyway, thank you all for reading this and taking the time to help me out. It really makes me happy to know there's still a lot of good people out there in the world. Thanks for the help!! I don't have many people that know I'm addicted to H, just my boyfriend. So it's nice to be able to open up and actually get advice from people with experience in these situations.
    Last edited by Tess137; 08-20-2012 at 01:42 AM.

  10. #10
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    hey tess. you feel good huh.... ?? its workin... thats how subs work. if you are on less than 1mg a day, i would say as long as you feel good. take it once a day. get stable. then taper... its how YOU feel. and if you feel no wd by now, trust me you would know if it was precipitated wd.... (it sux so bad it really does you would know)

    so to answer a question up front. NO YOU DONT HAVE TO BE IN WD BEFORE YOU TAKE YOUR NEXT DOSE. you made the switch, and you are on a role.... you got it right, so keep on ok.

    which means its holding you. so you are either on, or very near to, your stable dose. AWESOME...
    iloerose likes this.

  11. #11
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    Tess,

    You should take your dose as Kiwi said at the same time everyday. So whenever you took your dose of 2mg. take it at the same time the next day. (For your next dose: If you want to try to drop to 1 mg. you can do that and see how it goes, but that's a bit of a drop from two. You could also try dropping by .25 mgs to 1.75 and see you you feel.) If you can get lower that would be good, but if you can't well hey stay at the two for a few days before you start the taper, the important part is to be stable before you drop.

    However, if you stick to protocol, on the third day drop at least by .25%, you want to make these last so you can get down as far as you can in dosage before you go off. If you can get more, get more. AWESOME that you are doing this.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

    If the KIWI contradicts any of what I've told you, follow her advice. She knows a whole lot more than I do.

  12. #12
    Tess137 is offline New Member
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    2 mg the first day was enough to get me to the 24 hr mark the next day. And now I've only taken 1 mg today. Gonna see how that does me... I definitely think I'll be able to drop the dosage by day 3. Thanks for the help! I'm starting to figure out how I can actually make these 4 pills last. If 2 mg was enough the first day, I don't think I'll need more than that today (I feel okay off 1mg today) so I think a taper is still manageable for me!

    Feeling positive with almost 48 hrs since my last dose of H. I know I can do this with time.

  13. #13
    iloerose is offline Platinum Member
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    If you can get stable at 1mg. that'd be cool. But keep in mind that you may need a little bump. You should stabilize within about three days and then start to taper by .25% every three days. You need to stay stable and get down to the lowest amount possible. You don't have very many and w/d is possible from the subs and you may experience some bumps, just keep on going and keep on posting. Cheeky may be back on to check on you. Pay attention to what she says. She knows this well. Good for you that you want to quit the H and get on with your life.

    Peace,

    Iloerose

  14. #14
    Tess137 is offline New Member
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    Yeah, I think 1mg wasn't enough, so I took 1.5mg all in all today over the course of 3-4 hrs. I also have some weed to ease symptoms. But I found when I got up to go to class earlier today I was too weak to stand for more than 30 seconds at a time without having to go lay back down. I'm also hypoglycemic (low blood sugar) and I haven't been eating much in the past 2 days so my vision was blacking out when I would stand up and my head was hanging low, I just couldn't get myself to even get dressed and get ready for what I NEEDED to do today. I feel so horrible about not going. Today was the first day of class for this semester and I couldn't do it... which means I might get dropped from the class and I need to have a certain amount of classes and be full-time to get the benefits I do. UGH. I was feeling so good about being able to handle the minimal w/d's I'm feeling. The subs are making this very bearable. I was even able to sleep a few hours the second night of being on subs (probably because I took my dose at 11am). But I can tell that sleep and fatigue are definitely going to be problems this week. Plus the total lack of appetite, even with pot, makes me unable to get the strength I needed, like today just to get up and walk up and down the stairs in my house was all I could bear.

    I'm going to continue on with the sub tapering plan as I've been advised to. It's making sense to me finally. and I've taken 2mg yesterday, and only 1.5mg today, so I'll stick with that tomorrow... And start to taper down by 25% on the third or fourth day depending on how I feel. I'm finding that I start to feel a little sick and get w/d's BEFORE the 24 hr mark when I should take another dose. It seems like I need to take it a liiiittle sooner than 24 hrs, but that should be fine right?

  15. #15
    caughtagain is offline Diamond Member
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    check this out... Spells everything out for you. All my best, Reid

    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

  16. #16
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    tess. noooo. dont start taking it early. ok. just wait it out. what time do you dose.? i dosed mid morning, so i had my morning routine to get thru, get up, feed critters, get to work. take subs just before i leave.

    you are doing great. dont start convincing yourself you need it before 24 hours. thats your 'old' self talking.

    and iloerose knows what shes talkin bout...

    stick with the plan. but dont go rushing it. get it right. cool

  17. #17
    Tess137 is offline New Member
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    Oh, I didn't realize it was important to only do it ONCE a day, spread out by 24 hrs. I thought you just wait a good 24 hrs for the first dose so you don't get sick w/ prec. w/d's, and then after that take small doses whenever you start feeling w/d's again.

    I dosed at 11am yesterday and today did it in .5mg intervals between 9 and 11am. I just wanted to take some tonight instead of in the morning, because it actually helps me get to sleep once the sub kicks in, I start feeling normal, smoke a bowl, and can actually SLEEP. Whereas I've heard they commonly make it MORE difficult to fall asleep. But yeah, I'll try to keep them 24 hrs apart, and just stick to doing it around 10am...

  18. #18
    Anonymous Guest

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    once you are on a stable amount you dont need to do it in increments. did you read the link.? anyway yeh, once you have a stable dose, take it once a day only...

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