[unhappy-camper]

Hi, been reading here a while, on and off, and decided it was time to get some answers from those who have been where I am at before.

2 years sleeping with the little yellow friend named Hydrocodone. The same story as most... Started ages ago with a 5mg on weekends for fun, maybe 10 pills total a year. Time passes, and two years ago I start on a more heavy regimen. My timeline is something like this over the last 2 years:

Taking 10mg hydro with 325mg tylenol (10/325)
months 1 to 6 - half a pill to two pills a day
months 7 to 12 - around three to six per day
months 13 to 18 - up to 14 pills per day

I have decided my time has come, and I need to say goodbye to my little friends.

I am around 3 months into this, and am not in any hurry to get clean in a way that causes me any more discomfort than need be. I am a grown man and have been reduced to tears, literally, for reasons I can not entirely explain.

My taper has been that around 3 months ago I dropped from the 14 or so a day down to around 8 per day. I did this pretty quickly, over the course of a week or so. I have been slowly knocking off a half a pill (5mg) on occasion, as I feel I am able to.

My current dose is:
9AM 17.5mg
12PM 5mg
3PM 5mg
6PM 5mg
9PM 5mg
12PM 5mg

About 1/3 my peak usage in 3 months.

I know, one and three quarters in the morning, but were it not for that, I could not get out of bed. The body pain, inability to function, it kick starts me, and allows me to get working and trudge through it.

I keep the 5mg every three hours as a constant, when I knock off either .25mg or .5 mg, I take it out of my morning dose. So I used to be at 30mg at 9AM, and am now down to 17.5mg. I tried a 4 hour method in the past, I honestly do not see a lot of difference over the 3 hours method I use now, but mentally, It helps, and I get a dose before I go to bed. My old method had my last dose at 9PM, making 12 hours between doses.

My question is about how I have been feeling. In the beginning, it was very rough. Cutting down in half took a lot out of me. Now I am on a schedule, and try to knock off .25mg every three weeks or so. Not strict about it at all. My problem comes from taking a day off of the taper, and I will spend the weekend taking as many as I want. Come Monday, I pay for it, but that was an arrangement I made with myself on Saturday, and was willing to suffer.

For the first time, I did not play on the weekend. So I have now been on the above dose for 10 days, 11 on Thursday. I hear everyone say it takes about 5 days to adjust, which I have now doubled.

What has me totally confused, is that after the Sunday fun day, I felt like ******** on Monday, carry over I guess, Tuesday was bad, hurting all over, Wednesday, still hurting, and by Thursday, I am starting to still feel like garbage, but I could talk to someone if I had to. Friday, I feel pretty good, I went to a movie, was not high, and did not mind.

Over the three day weekend, I worked through it. I did not get a lot done, and was not able to focus as well as I would have liked, but it really was not too bad.

So Monday again rolls around, and up to today, which is why I am asking, I feel like ********. The body aches are more or less gone, or not there enough for me to be bothered. However, I now feel like I have the flu all the time, I am stuffed up. The worse for me, is I am cloudy. A total inability to concentrate and focus. I feel exactly like that sick person on TV looks in the cough syrup commercials.

Any idea why this is happening? I am on a pretty steady regime here. I have a friend who has had back surgery and is on 10mg every 3 hours for life. She is fine, and has been for 8 years or so. I am taking less than her, and having issues. How long does it take for me to acclimate to the dose I am now on?

I have been prescribed Klonopin for outbreak panic for the last 10 years of my life. I take .5mg as needed, never more than once a day. I have a stockpile, as I do not take it all the time.

The only thing I can add to this that may be causing issues, is it could be Xanax hangover. I have been stockpiling the .5mg Klonopin, but picked up a few hundred 1mg Xanax. I have taken 1mg a night for the last 2 weeks or so. I then took that down to .5mg a few days ago, and am still on the .5mg. I will try .25 Klonopin instead, just to mix it up.

The thing is, I used to be on 4mg Klonopin a day, for 2 years, and as much of an evil mess that was to taper off of myself, I managed, and do not recall these feelings of "stupid" and cloudy head. A benzo is a benzo as far as I am concerned, so I do not see why Klonopin vs Xanax would make much difference. I am also not looking to remove Klonopin from my life, it is there as an emergency thing, and I never mixed it with Hydro. I am glad I have it now to assist though.

Can anyone who has been through this tell me more about the time frames I am looking at here? Are the weekend fun days totally screwing me? Should I try to spread out the doses so the 9AM one is not so much, and I have more to level with over the day? I really can not imagine much less in the AM to be honest. I certainly do not get high in any way on the 9AM dose.

I actually am fearful of the days what I am down to 10mg that I have to spread out over an entire day, as I wonder if I can even acclimate to that dose. That is around a .25mg every 4 hours, which seems impossible.

Thanks to anyone who has any advice, sorry this is so long, I could not shorten it and get my history in detail.

[rogjah]

Im gonna be short cus I gotta sleep, talk more later

I was exactly the same as you. I worked up to 10-14 10/325 Perc's per day.

I started tapering about ohh 2 months ago. Im at 3 per day right now and I got back to the DR on 9/11.

Yes the weekend thing is screwing you up. No doubt about it. Your body is not going to readjust to it's new taper levels when you fill it back up on the weekends. Dump the weekend binges and let your body start adjusting to the taper. It's not always fun, but it's part of the price for getting involved with this ******** in the first place.

talk later

[unhappy-camper]

Originally Posted by rogjah

Im gonna be short cus I gotta sleep, talk more later

I was exactly the same as you. I worked up to 10-14 10/325 Perc's per day.

I started tapering about ohh 2 months ago. Im at 3 per day right now and I got back to the DR on 9/11.

Yes the weekend thing is screwing you up. No doubt about it. Your body is not going to readjust to it's new taper levels when you fill it back up on the weekends. Dump the weekend binges and let your body start adjusting to the taper. It's not always fun, but it's part of the price for getting involved with this ******** in the first place.

talk later

Thanks for the reply. I guess amongst my way too long post, there is one core question. I know the weekend play time is killing me, so I stopped that. If someone can cold turkey in 4-6 days and come out of that feeling pretty OK; what the heck is going on with me, sitting on 10-12 days or so, on the same flat dose, that I am having so many ups and downs.

I know this is not nearly as bad as what many people here have gone through. I think the one difference I have from any post I have seen here in all my lurking, is I am sitting on some pretty stupid psychological issues.

I will not go as far as agreeing with the diagnosis's I have had that I am manic, bi-polar, OCD, Asbergers etc, but they have all been suggested. When I do get off these I am not going back to a life I remember being better than being on them.

I am indeed tired of the ups, downs, and money spent, and want to get off them, but when I do, even fully recovered, I am right back to a life that I never really liked much to begin with.

[Robert_325]

Just stop it! You're prolonging the misery, you could be totally done in about four days with the worst of it. You can use the Thomas Recipe for lessening the w/d symptoms. It even calls for a benzo to help you. It helps a lot. Here is a link. God bless.

This is from an article in the St. Petersburg , FL Times Newspaper on

[unhappy-camper]

There seems to be three methods suggested here, cold turkey, taper, and Suboxone. I would say it is pretty evenly distributed who choses what. I am not sure I am in need of something the level of Suboxone to be honest.

So I am choosing the taper method, over cold turkey. This has to do with previous panic, anxiety, work, etc issues, it is the only one that is going to work for me.

I am still sort of wondering, how, if most are hitting 5 days and getting physically better, when a person tapers, what is the duration of time to acclimate to the lower dose?

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Just stop it! You're prolonging the misery, you could be totally done in about four days with the worst of it. You can use the Thomas Recipe for lessening the w/d symptoms. It even calls for a benzo to help you. It helps a lot. Here is a link. God bless.

This is from an article in the St. Petersburg , FL Times Newspaper on

[melinda7.5]

Hi UC
I did a taper before quit and yes it helps...I was on a lot of pain meds
but with the taper I had a BBQ with 70 peoople on day 4 after I quit...
I still thing it is an easy way to go as long as you can stick to it...
I had a hard time at the end and that is when I found this forum and I got the support I needed to quit...
so lets get it done
let us know if we can help
Melinda

[iloerose]

Someone on the board wrote that for her/him tapering was like death by a thousand cuts, so I don't know what to tell you about w/d while tapering. I couldn't do it. That said, many people taper by 25% roughly every five days down to one or two a day and then jump off. Robert is right, the best method is the Thomas Recipe and c/t. You get through the w/d in about 5 days or so. By day 5 most feel better. The deal is you have to WANT to quit, you sound like you are into hanging on to old habits, like the bingeing on weekends. Many here have done the c/t w/o the benzos and working/ doing their daily routines as if nothing is going on and made it through. The mental part of not using is the roughest, it's not enough to get clean, you have to want to stay clean.

Peace Out

IloeRose
The Thomas Recipe - For Opiate Withdrawal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found this reading the board, but decided to post it again for those who haven't found it and for all us "newbies". Peace and good luck to all of those here stuggling with addicition.


"PLEASE NOTE: I am not a doctor, simply a long-time Rx opiate junkie who has had many opportunities to develop a way to detox. This is a recipe for at-home self-detox from opiates based on my experience as well as that of many other addicts. It is not intended as professional medical advice. It is always wise to make sure none of the recipe ingredients or procedures conflict with medications you may be taking. Likewise, if you have any medical condition, disease, allergy or any other health issue, consult your doctor before using the recipe. Thanks, Thomas

THOMAS RECIPE

If you can't take time off to detox, I recommend you follow a taper regimen using your drug of choice or suitable alternate -- the slower the taper, the better.

For the Recipe, You'll need:

1. Valium (or another benzodiazepine such as Klonopin, Librium, Ativan or Xanax). Of these, Valium and Klonopin are best suited for tapering since they come in tablet form. Librium is also an excellent detox benzo, but comes in capsules, making it hard to taper the dose. Ativan or Xanax should only be used if you can't get one of the others.

2. Imodium (over the counter, any drug or grocery store).

3. L-Tyrosine (500 mg caps) from the health food store.

4. Strong wide-spectrum mineral supplement with at least 100% RDA of Zinc, Phosphorus, Copper, Magnesium and Potassium (you may not find the potassium in the same supplement).

5. Vitamin B6 caps.

6. Access to hot baths or a Jacuzzi (or hot showers if that's all that's available).

How to use the recipe:

Start the vitamin/mineral supplement right away (or the first day you can keep it down), preferably with food. Potassium early in the detox is important to help relieve RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome). Bananas are a good source of potassium if you can't find a supplement for it.

Begin your detox with regular doses of Valium (or alternate benzo). Start with a dose high enough to produce sleep. Before you use any benzo, make sure you're aware of how often it can be safely taken. Different benzos have different dosing schedules. Taper your Valium dosage down after each day. The goal is to get through day 4, after which the worst WD symptoms will subside. You shouldn't need the Valium after day 4 or 5.

During detox, hit the hot bath or Jacuzzi as often as you need to for muscle aches. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of hot soaks. Spend the entire time, if necessary, in a hot bath. This simple method will alleviate what is for many the worst opiate WD symptom.

Use the Imodium aggressively to stop the runs. Take as much as you need, as often as you need it. Don't take it, however, if you don't need it.

At the end of the fourth day, you should be waking up from the Valium and experiencing the beginnings of the opiate WD malaise. Upon rising (empty stomach), take the L-Tyrosine. Try 2000 mgs, and scale up or down, depending on how you feel. You can take up to 4,000 mgs. Take the L-Tyrosine with B6 to help absorption. Wait about one hour before eating breakfast. The L-Tyrosine will give you a surge of physical and mental energy that will help counteract the malaise. You may continue to take it each morning for as long as it helps. If you find it gives you the "coffee jitters," consider lowering the dosage or discontinuing it altogether. Occasionally, L-Tyrosine can cause the runs. Unlike the runs from opiate WD, however, this effect of L-Tyrosine is mild and normally does not return after the first hour. Lowering the dosage may help.

Continue to take the vitamin/mineral supplement with breakfast.

As soon as you can force yourself to, get some mild exercise such as walking, cycling, swimming, etc. This will be hard at first, but will make you feel considerably better.

Thomas"

[melinda7.5]

Hi Rose
for some people it's not that bad I did it and it worked great for me...
hope you had a good time on vacation and update your thread...LOL
Melinda

[iloerose]

Sorry Melinda, didn't mean to imply that tapering didn't work, it's just that the person seems to be going through such a tough time with tapering. I will post to my thread today, been so busy getting back to school. I told everyone I wasn't coming back until I had to and now I'm paying the price of too much work and not enough time Well, the weekend is almost here!

Unhappy-Camper: I didn't mean to sound unsympathetic to your struggle with tapering. Getting off these ******** pills is so dang hard! Any work you are doing to get out is a good thing. I wanted to quit for a few years before I finally did. Just couldn't let go of those "old friends". It was always tomorrow, tomorrow I will only take a few, etc. Just couldn't let go. Maybe you can use some of the things from the recipe to help you.

Peace

Iloerose

[melinda7.5]

Hi Rose
you dont have to be sorry to me...LOL
It just worked for me
I just wanted to say hi to you on your thread
have a good night
Melinda

[unhappy-camper]

Hey Melinda, thanks for the reply. If you do not mind, can you tell me what your normal peak dose was, and a little about your taper schedule. Especially how you did the very end part. Thanks.

Originally Posted by melinda7.5

Hi UC
I did a taper before quit and yes it helps...I was on a lot of pain meds
but with the taper I had a BBQ with 70 peoople on day 4 after I quit...
I still thing it is an easy way to go as long as you can stick to it...
I had a hard time at the end and that is when I found this forum and I got the support I needed to quit...
so lets get it done
let us know if we can help
Melinda

[unhappy-camper]

IloeRose, thanks for the recipe. For me, I am not there yet, as I am on a taper, and really just wanting to know rate of acclimation to a changed dose. I will start a new thread with that one specific question in it, as I think people can not get past the "just do it" idea.

People who do 25% every 5 days, that is amazing to me. I am doing more like 5% every 2 weeks, if that.

I have a lot of psychological history that I have never really seen brought up in these forums with regards to opiates. In short, I have certain health issues I need to contend with or I will be taking a massive regression from where I am at now in my psychological treatment. ie: cold turkey would cause that regression. Call it rationalizing if you want but this was at instruction of my psychiatrist.

As to wanting to quit, yes, I am there. I am more exploring the method of how to do it at this point. I knocked off the playing on weekends, and am getting ready to be more serious.

I am a smoker, and I have never tried once to quit in 15+ years of smoking. Why? Because I do not want to quit. I know, if I do not desire to quit, I will fail, and I generally do not do things I know ahead I will fail at. Starting to get a hint of wanting to quit that too, but now is not the right time.

I was on a maddening mix of SSRI's and SSNRI's and substantial benzo's at one point in time, and decided I needed to get off. The Dr's are sort of silly in that they pass out anti depressants like candy, and claim they are not addictive.

I define addiction as anything you think you need, that you could get by without. Especially if your body feels adversely when you stop usage. While entirely different, dealing with anti-psychotics, coming off of antidepressants; hugely painful as well, just in a different way.

Thanks for hanging on this thread, everyones advise is helpful and valuable to me.

Originally Posted by iloerose

Someone on the board wrote that for her/him tapering was like death by a thousand cuts, so I don't know what to tell you about w/d while tapering. I couldn't do it. That said, many people taper by 25% roughly every five days down to one or two a day and then jump off. Robert is right, the best method is the Thomas Recipe and c/t. You get through the w/d in about 5 days or so. By day 5 most feel better. The deal is you have to WANT to quit, you sound like you are into hanging on to old habits, like the bingeing on weekends. Many here have done the c/t w/o the benzos and working/ doing their daily routines as if nothing is going on and made it through. The mental part of not using is the roughest, it's not enough to get clean, you have to want to stay clean.

Peace Out

IloeRose

[unhappy-camper]

Hi Iloerose, thanks. To be honest I did not come here for sympathy, so even if you were unsympathetic, I am ok with that

Some good old fashioned honsty at time can be really helpful. I am not sure it was you, but someone said "just stop it" in one of these posts. I am not going to heed that advice, however, I spent a few days, mulling that comment over in my head.

At first I thought ok, this person is being irrational, and does not walk in my shoes, so they have no way to make such a suggestion. I sat on that a hour or so, and then the part of my brain kicks in where I start to work over the suggestion. I consider, am I rationalizing myself, in order to keep using? Yes, of course. Will that rationalizing ultimately prevent me from my goal? No, my past personality has shown me that.

So I run everything that is said here in the back of my head over the course of a few days. If someone calls me a wimp, I will sped some time on that, determining if I am being weak, or not.

Thank you all for your input, I read it all, and take it all in, and see if I should alter my current plans and methods, or continue on the plan I have based on what I know of my behavior patterns.

Originally Posted by iloerose

Unhappy-Camper: I didn't mean to sound unsympathetic to your struggle with tapering. Getting off these ******** pills is so dang hard! Any work you are doing to get out is a good thing. I wanted to quit for a few years before I finally did. Just couldn't let go of those "old friends". It was always tomorrow, tomorrow I will only take a few, etc. Just couldn't let go. Maybe you can use some of the things from the recipe to help you.

Peace

Iloerose

[MaisieC]

Hi unhappy,

Well, you sound like you're having a miserable time, and I'm sorry. I think I understand a bit about your background, so I am sympathetic to that, but I think you are driving yourself crazy looking for an answer that may not be forthcoming, or at least not to your satisfaction. I have detoxed both through cold turkey and tapering, and I think you should do whatever works for you. But you're not going to feel good when you taper. I don't think people have symptom-free tapers. Basically you're keeping yourself in withdrawal for an extended period of time. The trade-off is that the WD symptoms are not as bad when you taper as when you do cold turkey. But you're still in WD, and you're still not going to feel great.

If you have a taper schedule and that's the way you want to do it, then go for it. But worrying about how long the WD symptoms "should" last at each decrease is going to make you nuts. Your body is dependent, and you're going to feel bad to one degree or another as long as you're decreasing your dose. Keep tapering, and you'll be clean eventually.

Good luck and take care,
Maisie

[melinda7.5]

Hi Maisie
WELCOME BACK ...I hope you are doing well and it is so good to have you back...
Talk to you later...
Melinda

[MaisieC]

Originally Posted by melinda7.5

Hi Maisie
WELCOME BACK ...I hope you are doing well and it is so good to have you back...
Talk to you later...
Melinda

Thanks so much, Melinda!!!