[babydaddy724]

Hello I am new here but I have read lots of posts here and has been very helpful. My question is, I have been on methadone for just under a year because of a nasty heroin addiction. The methadone was great and I have been clean from drugs since I started the program. I am ready to get off of the methadone now due to the fact , well I am just tired of driving all the way up there every morning ( 40 mins each way ). Plus I just started a new job and my benefits from the state are now gone and I am not going to pay 100 bucks a week. Also I have to drag my 18 month old son up there. Anyways I have been on 100mgs for the duration and currently I am more than half way done with a 21 day detox. I just took 40mgs today ( I am going down 5 a day ). March 3rd will be my last day. They have it set up so my last 4 days there I will be on 10mgs for two days then my last two days I will be on 5mgs. Will I be safe taking the subs the day after my last day? I work two jobs and am raising a son so I really can't afford to be deathly sick. I know the magic number is 30mgs but i am coming off of 100mgs so fast I am worried that it will still be in my system even though my last few days I will only be on 10mgs or less. I have been on subs before and I know they work but never experienced precipitated withdrawal. Like I said before I am tapering down from 100mgs and I am at 40 as of today and still feel fine. I got like 9 days to go until I am done with the meth. Anyone who has any experience with this please let me know what you think. Thank you in advance and any input will be greatly appreciated.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by babydaddy724

Hello I am new here but I have read lots of posts here and has been very helpful. My question is, I have been on methadone for just under a year because of a nasty heroin addiction. The methadone was great and I have been clean from drugs since I started the program. I am ready to get off of the methadone now due to the fact , well I am just tired of driving all the way up there every morning ( 40 mins each way ). Plus I just started a new job and my benefits from the state are now gone and I am not going to pay 100 bucks a week. Also I have to drag my 18 month old son up there. Anyways I have been on 100mgs for the duration and currently I am more than half way done with a 21 day detox. I just took 40mgs today ( I am going down 5 a day ). March 3rd will be my last day. They have it set up so my last 4 days there I will be on 10mgs for two days then my last two days I will be on 5mgs. Will I be safe taking the subs the day after my last day? I work two jobs and am raising a son so I really can't afford to be deathly sick. I know the magic number is 30mgs but i am coming off of 100mgs so fast I am worried that it will still be in my system even though my last few days I will only be on 10mgs or less. I have been on subs before and I know they work but never experienced precipitated withdrawal. Like I said before I am tapering down from 100mgs and I am at 40 as of today and still feel fine. I got like 9 days to go until I am done with the meth. Anyone who has any experience with this please let me know what you think. Thank you in advance and any input will be greatly appreciated.

You're tapering entirely too fast off the methadone. Irregardless there is NO WAY that you should jump right off into the suboxone. I PROMISE YOU that you will regret this so bad if you start on the sub without taking at least three days off with NOTHING. You'll have precipitated w/d so bad you won't even believe it. You should be tapering off the methadone no more than 15% max every two weeks anyway, now you're considering jumping right off on the subs??? You've got to be kidding !!!

It doesn't matter whether or not you can afford to be sick or whether you can afford to take off work. None of that has anything to do with what is going to happen to your body when you do this. The effects of methadone detox don't take your personal situation into consideration when deciding whether or not to make you deathly ill. You will need to go 72 hours without any methadone prior to starting on the suboxone or you will regret it big time. God bless.

[babydaddy724]

Ok so you are saying that I need to wait a couple days after my last dose? Thats fine, that is why I asked. So say my last dose of meth is on a tuesday. I should wait till at least thursday night or friday morning before starting the subs? If that is what I gotta do then so be it. i will take your word and wait a couple days and see what happens. I will post and update how I feel...

Also why do you say I am tapering too fast. I only got like 8 days left at the clinic and I feel fine. why do they say you need to be at 30 mgs to make the jump. I am going to be taking less than 30 for over a week so why is this going to be a problem. If this is the case would I be better off just taking some oxy's for a few days after I am done with the methadone before switching to subs?

[Robert_325]

I did not say wait a couple days. I said to wait AT LEAST THREE DAYS.

I said you were tapering too fast because methadone has an extremely long half life and it can take several days before it really hits you. And ABSOLUTELY NO you don't switch over and taper off with oxys. You've already done it now. God bless.

[babydaddy724]

whenever you say it can take several days to hit you do you mean the withdraw? I am down to 30mgs today and still feel fine but if I miss a day I feel like garbage. for example a couple days ago I slept in and couldn't get to the clinic because I had to be at work at 6am. Around 9 that morning I felt terrible so I took an early half hour break to fly to the clinic to dose and I was fine after that. I was at 40mgs that day. Like I said in my original post my last four days there goes 10mgs, 10mgs, 5mgs, 5mgs. There is no way its going to take three full days to feel the withdraw. They purposely had my last few days set up like this because they know I am switching to suboxone when I am done. Don't take this the wrong way I really appreciate all of your input ( your the only one taking the time out of your life to help a guy you don't even know). So with that said I am planning on waiting as long as possible before starting the subs. Also maybe you took the oxy thing the wrong way. What I was saying is, since I have to wait so long after my last dose of methadone would things be easier on me just to take some kind of pills just for three or four days just until the methadone is out of me enough. Trust me I have no intentions on getting back into drugs again because I will never put myself through this long hassle of trying to get clean off of life destroying drug again. I have been battling getting clean for a year and a half now. But anyways I just need to make this three days not so bad because also like I said before I have two jobs and a 18 month old son. There is no way I can deal with being that sick while living my very busy life. Any input ( I don't mind constructive criticism, but try to take it easy ) would be much much much appreciated...

[Robert_325]

I promise you will need three days off the methadone prior to sub induction or you will suffer precipitated w/d. If you were to use oxy to attempt to shorten that you would still have to go a good 36-48 hours. That makes no sense. You're better off dealing with the three days of misery from the methadone. I promise you I'm right on this. If you start on the sub too soon you'll regret it more than I can say. Good luck and God bless.

[mpvt]

You are at 30mgs of methadone a day, that is the threshold dose where you can make the jump to buprenorphene (suboxone,subutex). A year on methadone isn't long enough for your brain and body to recuperate so making the switch to buprenorphene is a very good idea. Listen to what Robert tells you about buprenorphene as he is the expert here and has helped numerous people deal with buprenorphene. Good luck and keep in touch.......Dave

[babydaddy724]

Robert first off thank you for all of your help but I still do not think you are understanding what I am talking about with the oxy's. I am not looking to shorten my 3 day wait. I am simply saying what if I were to use them for three days after my last day at the methadone clinic to ease my 3 day wait without having to be sick. For example march 3rd is my last day at the clinic. Would it hurt to use ONLY on march 4th, 5th, and the 6th. Then on march 7th I will start using the suboxone to beat the precipitated w/d. Thank you again for all of your input...

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by babydaddy724

Robert first off thank you for all of your help but I still do not think you are understanding what I am talking about with the oxy's. I am not looking to shorten my 3 day wait. I am simply saying what if I were to use them for three days after my last day at the methadone clinic to ease my 3 day wait without having to be sick. For example march 3rd is my last day at the clinic. Would it hurt to use ONLY on march 4th, 5th, and the 6th. Then on march 7th I will start using the suboxone to beat the precipitated w/d. Thank you again for all of your input...

I understand COMPLETELY what you are asking me regarding the use of the oxy to fend off the methadone w/d symptoms. Here is the deal. There is NOTHING you can take to stop those three days of w/d symptoms as THAT is a specific part of the pre-induction phase of subs coming off methadone. You can NOT take an alternate opiate and expect to avoid precipitated w/d.

If you take any oxy, hydrocodone, percocets, or whatever to ease your w/d symptoms you will be guaranteeing that you will suffer BADLY from precipitated w/d. Bottom line is that there's NOTHING you can do to avoid the w/d symptoms of the three day period unless you want to suffer precipitated w/d when you do the sub induction. Sorry, but I don't make the rules, I'm just the messenger. You're just going to have to tough it out. God bless.

[icandoitin08]

I refered someone to my suboxone doc and my doc told them that they had to be off the methadone for 30 days before they could start the suboxone.

[babydaddy724]

Ok I am taking you at your word because you seem to be the person that knows what they are talking about. The only thing I dont understand is I know someone personally who decided to quit the methadone program and she just started using again and she never got sick. This was a two year methadone patient. I know this because when I asked her how she quit methadone she said "I just started using again" and she never got sick. I thought precipitated withdraw was when you took subs while methadone was in you. Not when you took oxy while methadone is still in you...

[Robert_325]

You can theoretically switch to oxy from methadone, then start using oxy again for several days, three days or whatever, but you still have to score a minimum of a 26 on the COWS worksheet. That is a minimum of modertaley severe w/d so you will still have to go without any meds for at least a couple days regardless of what you do. So may as well just do it the way you're already doing it. God bless.

[MaisieC]

Hi babydaddy,

You're absolutely right to trust Robert on this. He knows what he's talking about.

I'm not sure I understand what the relevance is of the story about your friend who went off methadone and started using heroin again. I don't see any suboxone in that equation: am I missing something?

The thing about starting on suboxone is that you have to be at a certain level of withdrawal in order to make the transition. If you're not at that level, the suboxone itself will cause (or precipitate) very bad withdrawal symptoms. So anything you do to prevent or lessen your withdrawal symptoms from the methadone is going to screw you up with respect to getting onto the suboxone successfully. If you use oxys to ease your withdrawal, you're shooting yourself in the foot, because you have GOT to be in withdrawal in order to make the transition. If you try to take a "short cut" to make it easier, it's going to come back around and bite you in the behind.

Take care, and good luck!

[babydaddy724]

I do understand how suboxone works because I have been on it before and I know I have to wait until I am in moderate w/d. I guess what I am really trying to ask is would it be easier on me to use for a couple days before making the switch or just deal with the w/d from the methadone. How bad am I going to feel? I have been through w/d before from pills and dope but not methadone... Will I be able to go to work feeling like this? Should I make sure I have someone to watch my son for me for those three days? I just want to be prepared. I know it wont be easy because if it was people wouldn't be going to the clinic 10+ years...

[MaisieC]

I've never used dope or methadone; my experience is only with pills. But it seems to me that "moderate withdrawal" is "moderate withdrawal," regardless of which opiate/opioid you're coming off of. I think the COWS worksheet is organized around symptoms rather than the drug you've been using. So I'm guessing that you're really worried that coming off methadone is going to put you in severe withdrawal, right?

This is just a guess, but I imagine you can probably expect to feel pretty ********py. You are tapering fast (based on what I've known from various friends), and you said that you feel like garbage if you miss a day. So I wouldn't be surprised if you had to miss a couple of days of work or needed some help with the baby.

Take care.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by babydaddy724

I do understand how suboxone works because I have been on it before and I know I have to wait until I am in moderate w/d. I guess what I am really trying to ask is would it be easier on me to use for a couple days before making the switch or just deal with the w/d from the methadone. How bad am I going to feel? I have been through w/d before from pills and dope but not methadone... Will I be able to go to work feeling like this? Should I make sure I have someone to watch my son for me for those three days? I just want to be prepared. I know it wont be easy because if it was people wouldn't be going to the clinic 10+ years...

Daddy ... I am posting the link to the COWS worksheet below. Read it. You will see how sick you have to be in order to score a 26 as a minimum as suggested.

The three day thing with the methadone is mainly due to the long half life. Methadone w/d symptoms linger a long time and often a patient can miss a day and it doesn't make them ill. It's just because of the way methadone works. Methadone detox is a drag and why it's suggested as a last resort med. It's great when a person needs pain meds for life.

To be realistic you're going to feel very poorly following three days of methadone w/d or if you went the other way and w/d from two good days of oxy w/d. Best thing is make the necessary plans to have some help if it's available for your son. That's if he's too young. But you are going to feel like hell either way you go. That's just the way it is.

You need to experience the symptoms to score yourself properly so you are defeating the purpose of this by making yourself feel good at this time. It's a small price for getting clean. Otherwise it's pre-cipitated w/d and you don't want that. God bless.

http://www.suboxone.com/pdfs/OWR.pdf

[babydaddy724]

I have an update on my situation witch is really not a good one. Here is what happened I was supposed to go to my last counseling today but my counselor was not there today and I was told I needed to be there tomorrow at 6am which is impossible because of work. I dont know why they are giving me a hard time because I only have a few days before i am done. Anyways we had a small argument and I was told if I cant make it tomorrow then I would have to sit and wait to be the last one dosed ( which would make me miss work and I cant do that ). This turned into an argument and anybody that goes to the clinic knows they can care less about you. I told them I would not be back. What is my wait time if I took 25mgs today as my last dose...

[Robert_325]

Print the COWS worksheet from the last post I sent you so you can use it as a guide.

I'm sorry about your diffuculty at the clinic but it may have been a godsend. Based on a 25mg dose, and I know that is a reduction from only yesterday which is still workable, is probably going to be a good 72 hours. That's an estimate and it could vary a few hours, but be honest with yourself or you'll only be hurting you.

Keep us posted how you're doing. Just remember that you'll only have to do this once. Then you never have to use again. God bless.

[MaisieC]

I'm really sorry to hear about your experience at the clinic. This sounds completely consistent with what my friends have told me about their clinic experience: they get treated like naughty children and subjected to arbitrary and unfair decisions. I know you won't miss that BS.

I'll be thinking of you. I hope you'll keep posting here and let us know how you're doing. Take care.

[janet941]

They are drug dealers. They want you to beg like all drug dealers do, right? Methadone is EVIL!!!

[mpvt]

Methadone should be used for the worst addicts that can't seem to get clean no matter what they do. If your able to go on heroin binges and then stop for a few days or longer then methadone is not for you. Methadone is meant for the daily addict who is totally out of control because 1, their tolerence is out of control 2,They have been heavy daily abusers for a minimum 5 years strait. When you get to this point in opiate addiction your brain and body have gone through massive chemical changes. Methadone enables addicts to stay clean and get their lives back together. It is not replacing one opiate for another as methadone will allow your brain and body to revert back to as normal a state as possible. Methadone patients usually need tostay on methadone for life as they are in need of ORT to function normally.
Buprenorphene (suboxone,subutex) is a wonderful medication for all addicts including the heavy addicts I talked about. It does work best on addicts that don't use daily and have under 5 years of active addiction. Methadone and Buprtenorphene are the way to go for addicts that have failed rehab/detox, cold turkey ect. You have to stay on these drugs long enough to heal.
I stated out 7 years ago at 400mgs a day of methadone. I have never nodded or felt lazy on methadone. If you feel this way then you need to come down as your to high on your dose.
After 3+ years I began to feel that I could come down a bit. I dropped 10% a month until I reached 300mgs. I stayed there for 6 months and started down again never dropping more than 10% a month. I'm now into 7+ years and I'm at 120%. If I wasn't a chronic pain patient then I could probably come down to a maintenance dose. I have been back to work for 6 years and my life is great. You have to make a commitment to ORT just like we committed ourselves to active addiction. So be prepared to take control of your life. Taking a dose of methadone and going home to do nothing accomplishes nothing. So get up and exercise, work, volunteer whatever but get active and stay away from eating tons of sweets. Methadone does make some people crave sweets and this is one reason for the weight gain, also inactivety doesn't help either. So like I said, methadone and Buprenorphene are the new gold standard but be prepared to work at getting back into a normal life.Good luck everyone and hang inthere.

[babydaddy724]

Well its been about 30 hours since my last dose of 25 and I pretty much feel like garbage. I know I wont sleep good these next couple days but I can get my hands on some klonopins if need be. I am not a big fan of nerve pills but on the other hand I need sleep. Plus I doubt using them for a couple days wont kill me. I will post tomorrow after work and let you know how I feel....

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by babydaddy724

Well its been about 30 hours since my last dose of 25 and I pretty much feel like garbage. I know I wont sleep good these next couple days but I can get my hands on some klonopins if need be. I am not a big fan of nerve pills but on the other hand I need sleep. Plus I doubt using them for a couple days wont kill me. I will post tomorrow after work and let you know how I feel....

I understand wanting to get rid of the w/d symptoms with klonopin, or get rid of as many of the symptoms as is possible. But remember that is why I gave you the COWS worksheet. If you mask the symptoms. you won't know when you're ready to begin and not have precipitated w/d.

I've mentioned it about three times now at least that you're going to need about three days of taking nothing or you'll end up with precipitated w/d. You have to be able to score the symptoms on the worksheet. If you take something to where you can't score it properly then you're wasting your time even messing with the COWS worksheet. Good luck and God bless.

[babydaddy724]

Hi I am back with some good news. Today at about 1:30pm today I met my Suboxone doctor. She gave me enough to last about 3-4 weeks (13 8mg Tabs ) and when I left I was so scared to take one. After about an hour of debating I cracked an 8mg in half and threw it under my tounge. This was exactly 75 hours since my last dose on tuesday which was 25 mgs of methadone. I waited about a half hour after I took it and I thought I was feeling worse. About 20 mins later I got out of the car to pump gas and I just realized I feel pretty damn good. So I guess I did wait long enough. I just took another 2mgs of suboxone about a half hour ago and I feel fantastic. I AM SO HAPPY NO MORE CLINIC... It can be done people. I weened off of 100mgs of methadone in like 20 days to get down to 25 and quit. Now I have a confession to make. During those 3 days I used a bit to lessen the withdraw. I used a few bags of dope and some pills to take the edge off. But anyways I started the subs today and I feel great. It really wasn't even that bad of a process. If I can do it anyone can do it trust me. Just follow what I did and you will be fine!... Thank everyone for yor help it was much appriciated...

[babydaddy724]

Update... 3rd day on suboxone and I am already down to taking 4mgs a day and staying comfortable. Its nice to not have to make that ride every morning. Like I said it can be done if anyone needs or wants info from someone who just experienced the switch from methadone to suboxone contact me here or leave an e-mail and I will happily try to help as much as I can.

[Pow skier]

Nice dude, your lucky it went that way without a hitch. When I went from a couple months of methadones the doctor told me to take the sub the next day, the night before I had taken 30 or 40 mg of methadone-it was not good. In fact, I didn't feel very good for about two months. The doctors don't know enough about this drug. My only advice to you would be to only take if for a few months, then get off. I was doing great for the first 4-5 months, down to less than 4mg and could have gotten off of it, then I broke up w/ a girlfriend and all of a sudden I was depressed and couldn't get off in that state. 13 months of suboxone later and I'm down to 1mg, can't wait to be done with it, I have felt ********ty for the last 7 months, but couldnt get off of this stuff or lower my dose.

[dago77]

...Hey Bro, I read your post last night. I did not respond because I dont know enough about tapering off subox myself. Im sure by now you have read a lot of posts from Robert. He knows exactly how to taper you off with minimum w/d. Im sure he will get back with you. If not maybe post another thread to him. He knows the tricks. Good luck brother.

Ryan

[melinda7.5]

Hi Guys
Robert is not able to get on line right now comcast is having trouble in his area right now...
Talk to you later, Melinda

[dago77]

...Hi Melinda, I think maybe we forget sometimes that you are also thrying to get better! I know you have quite a bit of clean time in now. So how are you doing/feeling these days? You have been clean since August? Is it getting any easier? Today is 15 days.


Ryan

[babydaddy724]

Pow Skier, Trust me I am not going to take these subs no more than 3 more weeks. I am already down to 2mgs a day and plan to go down to 1 in a couple days. I have ( I think ) like 8 maybe 9 tabs left. When those are gone I am not going to get more. They are too expensive here to keep buying them. I go to a clinic that just lets you walk in and buy em. Its almost funny to me, you walk in and they are like " Ok, how many you need? " There is like a menu on the window and you just tell em how many you want. The least amount you can buy is five 8mg tabs for $100. The most you can get is like $320 dollars worth. I spent $210 and that got me 13 of the 8mg tabs. You can get the 2mg tabs but you get more for your money if you get the 8's I can't keep forking out that kind of money. The place is in Pittsburgh right in Oakland if anyone lives in the area. Its called Priority Healthcare Clinic.