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How SOON Am I Able To Start Suboxone again after my last prescribed dose of Percocet?
  1. #1
    HeatherLynn is offline New Member
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    Unhappy How SOON Am I Able To Start Suboxone again after my last prescribed dose of Percocet?

    So a little history really quick before my question: 2 years ago I was on 10mg of percocet every 4hrs for pain. No longer needed to be on them for pain. When I tried tapering the conventional way with the doc's supervision, my body didn't do well it at all, wd's were horrendous (had been on percocet for 2 years) This is when my doc mentioned Suboxone and thus I came to be on it. I have now been on Sub for 1.5 years with no problems. My dose is so tiny, only .05 once daily. I break a 2mg pill in 4ths. I know it's such a small amount but my body is soo overly sensitive and if I don't take it, my body just flips into major WD.

    Ok so now, my question. about 4 days ago my pain doc and finally decided its' time for me to go on a short burst of percocet for my slipped disk (until I can receive an epidural injection in my back) as the pain is no longer bearable. I have abstained from having to take these for the pain for so long by taking ultram, as I cannot stand narcotics and the way they work with my body. HOWEVER, I had no choice with the level of pain i'm in. So he talked to my sub doc and they agreed. SO. I waited almost 28 or so hours before taking my first dose of 10mg of percocet. Now, the first few doses were almost unbearable. I felt so sick and it did not help the pain. After all the research i'd done, I assumed it must have been some of the Sub stuck to my receptors still, and therefore not working to it's potential. I believe I was correct, as after the first 2 days or so it got better, better, but still gross and not great. SO here I am, where after I take 5mg's of it, about 3 hours after taking it, I am in horrible WD, with body aches, over all malaise, and just feel like someone took all of the energy right out of me: It's complete WD only after 3 or 4 hours of taking a pill! This is hell!! It doesn;t even really help the back pain! I'm so confused. After this experience I'd much rather deal with the pain! I want to convert back to the Sub, but I am scared as to how long I have to wait. From what I see on the discussion boards, it looks like I may have to wait almost 20 hours. Does anyone know if I can take it sooner? The WD's are so bad, after 4 hours of them I have to take another percocet! I want to switch back before too many days go by, but wanted to kind of have a benchmark in my head to look at..like.ok i've been in WD for 8 hours..I only have to wait (X) more..you know? I am also going to call my Sub and pain doc later and ask, but sometimes people with personal experiences have great advice, too. Sorry for the book, and looking for any advice! Thanks, Heather

  2. #2
    MaisieC is offline Senior Member
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    Hi Heather,

    I'm sorry you're having such a dreadful time! Robert is the one here who can advise you about suboxone, but I'm wondering about the role of ultram in all this. When did you take your last ultram? Were you taking it at the same time as the suboxone, before? I ask because although ultram is not a narcotic, it is an indeed an opioid. Suboxone can be used to help people detox from ultram addiction. I wonder if it's not complicating this picture.

  3. #3
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Ultram works on the same brain receptors as percs or hydros or whatever. You can't be taking ultram while you're on suboxone therapy. That won't work.

    You need to be in SEVERE w/d prior to starting back on suboxone. Just don't do it if you're still taking ultram. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    HeatherLynn is offline New Member
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    WOW. I am so surprised right now. I have been prescribed ultram WITH the suboxone for over a year now, with both the pain doc and sub doc telling that it is A OK! Wonderful! Glad these people are intelligent? The only thing I did notice on my own was that I could NOT take these two together as my heart started to do weird things, so I would take the ultram during the day (around 1-3 50mg pills) and then not take any more after 6pm, then take the sub at like 11pm. That seemed to resolve that. ANYHOW i'm still surprised. I know that Ultram is synthetic (hardly!) but I think these docs are crazy to deny (most of them anywAY) that this is non habit forming and stuck to the idea it's not a narcotic (when it clearly is classified as one in the UK)

    SO To clear something up, I completely stopped taking the ultram when I was prescribed the Percocet last weel, I wouldn't mix those!! Maybe going off both the sub and ultram and trading it for the Percocet is just too much for my body as this is pure hell. I m praying and pushing through today, Im going to try to make today the day (even though Im in pain) to not taking any more percocet and jump back to the sub. I am miserable, and in horrid WD's every 3 hours now with taking the percocet, like I said. Maybe the Sub has ruined my receptor's, crazy stuff! Ugghh. Thanks so much for the support and advice guys !
    Last edited by HeatherLynn; 06-24-2009 at 09:28 AM.

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    HeatherLynn is offline New Member
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    the other quick thing was I wanted to make sure i'm not going to die or anything if I take the sub after 8 hrs of taking the percocet. I know I risk worse wd's (so i hear) however, I just didn;t know if anyone knew if that is super dangerous. I am pretty pissed about the fact that my sub doctor never called back yesterday so I could ask him these ?'s. Considering he's about 89 years old and has 100 patients a day, it doesn't surprise me!

  6. #6
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    I would wait for longer than eight hours before going back to the suboxone to be safe. You're already miserable anyway, I would give it a good sixteen hours or so at least. Let us know how you make out today. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  7. #7
    MaisieC is offline Senior Member
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    Oh my God, they had you on subs and ultram at the same time? Then they switched you to percocet? No wonder you feel like hell. Of course that's why you were having those heart symptoms. Your poor body. That doctor should be barred from practice.

    That said, I don't think your receptors are ruined, but I do think you've been put through hell completely irresponsibly. And it may take some time for your body to adjust.

    No one should be on suboxone for as long as you were. It's designed to help you detox from other opioids, not for long-term maintenance. Given what you've been through, I don't think you should go back on the subs at all. I know your withdrawals from the percocet were bad, but you're already on your way to being detoxed and I would recommend doing a slow taper off the percocet rather than getting involved with subs again. If you start with the subs too soon, you're going to feel way worse than you feel now. Don't put yourself through this additional agony. You've embarked on a detox off the percs, and I think you should stay the course.

    Unfortunately I can't advise you about pain management going forward. It seems you need to be on medication ongoing? There are other people on this board who have experience with chronic pain who can discuss this with you. I just think you need to get clean from all these narcotics and the mess your doctors have created for you.

    Hang in there and please let us know how you're doing.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    I really agree with Maisie. I was not implying that going back on subs would be the best thing for you. I was merely trying to answer your question about how soon you could it. I should have pointed out the time factor you've used these meds is not helping you at all at this point.

    We recommend using suboxone for like 6-8 weeks for opiate detox. I don't advise people to use it for years. That doesn't mean I'm automatically correct but we have a pretty good success ratio here with suboxone. Once you are off ALL the pain meds you could more accurately determine your true pain level with no meds affecting the way you feel. That's the best way to know exactly how much pain you're really in without your drug dependency being such a huge factor.

    Lots of people find that after being clean for a while off ALL these pain meds that their pain level actually improves. The meds have a way of making us feel worse after using them for a while. That's a whole other subject but trust us, you don't need all these meds, especially not at the same time.

    If you need help getting off all the meds we will be there for you. If you are wanting to continue to take pain meds longterm then you need to eliminate suboxone from the equation regardless. Tell us what you decide to do and we can help accordingly.

    I think that it's pretty obvious what you're doing now is not the right way to do this. We are here if we can help. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 06-24-2009 at 12:46 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    bev49 is offline Banned
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    Hi there, Robert. Remember me? I haven't been here in quite a while and don't recognize any of the people here now, it's so nice to see you're still here helping people. As for me, my situation goes against all the advice given.

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    bev49 is offline Banned
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    (accidentally hit the send button before I was done)... Anyway, my story goes against the traditional wisdom. After being addicted to opiates for 40 some odd years (am now 59 years old), and on methodone for the last 33, I successfully switches to sub.. I started on 16 mgs. a day which was ridiculous, quickly got myself down to 2, and am now on 1 mg. per day. The catch is I've been on it for almost a year and do not see myself off. The idea is terrifying and even the doctors I've seen seem to agree. I do agree and would advise anyone not NOT NOT to stay on suboxone long term, there are a million individual stories and its different for each of us. I wish with all my heart I had done things differently and could be totally drug free now. I have major fear about what will happen if and when I have a pain situation, i.e., surgery or something. But I don't see how after 10 years of >>>>>> addiction followed by 33 years of methadone addicxtion and now 1 year of sub addiction my body could every adjust. Anyway, it nice to be back on this board, nice to see you still her, Robert, and wish everybody the best....

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by bev49 View Post
    (accidentally hit the send button before I was done)... Anyway, my story goes against the traditional wisdom. After being addicted to opiates for 40 some odd years (am now 59 years old), and on methodone for the last 33, I successfully switches to sub.. I started on 16 mgs. a day which was ridiculous, quickly got myself down to 2, and am now on 1 mg. per day. The catch is I've been on it for almost a year and do not see myself off. The idea is terrifying and even the doctors I've seen seem to agree. I do agree and would advise anyone not NOT NOT to stay on suboxone long term, there are a million individual stories and its different for each of us. I wish with all my heart I had done things differently and could be totally drug free now. I have major fear about what will happen if and when I have a pain situation, i.e., surgery or something. But I don't see how after 10 years of >>>>>> addiction followed by 33 years of methadone addicxtion and now 1 year of sub addiction my body could every adjust. Anyway, it nice to be back on this board, nice to see you still her, Robert, and wish everybody the best....






    Hi bev ..... of course I remember you. It's good to see you back on the forum. It's been a while. I've wondered several times how things were going for you. Hope all is well.

    Taking 1mg of suboxone per day (following 33 years on methadone/10 years >>>>>> addiction) isn't the end of the world. You should be proud of yourself.

    I admit that I like to see people finish up and get totally clean. But it certainly isn't my place to judge or criticize anyone if they choose to use suboxone or methadone long term. At least you're not taking a high dose.

    You would have likely been a methadone patient forever had you not switched to suboxone. And I'm not saying either one is bad. I personally WISH you would let me help you taper down and off the suboxone like your original plan when you first came on the forum. However I realize there are a FEW cases where using subs is one of the legitimate options even over the longterm. You have to do what's right for you with the suboxone whatever that is. I'm here if I can help.

    Now that I'm done preaching I will answer your question about pain. There can be a problem with the effectiveness of RX opiates while using suboxone. You're at a relatively low dose at 1mg. If you had an emergency requiring pain medication you would probably be disappointed with how RX opiate pain pills work. But you could take a higher dose and it would probably help. Therein is the danger for overdose as one would be trying to get pain relief unsuccessfully.

    If you are having some kind of planned medical procedure, ANYTHING that can be planned for, then you can skip some days in advance and you'll be okay. Considering your current 1mg dose it would likely be only a matter of days prior to surgery that you would need to be off the suboxone. Those situations are not that big of a deal. If you were taking a much higher dose it could be lots more difficult to deal with.

    If you're a longterm user of buprenorphine then you should definitely carry a card, wear a bracelet or necklace, you should have some kind of medical >> so a dr would be aware in case you were unconscious in an accident or some kind of medical emergency. If you think about it then it's logical. You wouldn't be reacting properly to medication and a dr would need to know why. Hope that helps.

    Keep us posted how you're doing. Take care. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 06-24-2009 at 03:47 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  12. #12
    HeatherLynn is offline New Member
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    I want to start off firstly by thanking everyone with their wonderful thoughts/input. Every bit of it makes sense, helps me get through this, and in turn, I do feel better about everything. I'm glad I found this yesterday!

    To address the long-term Sub use, it's funny because I went into this Sub therapy with the intention of using it as an aid to help come off of the Percocet, and was SO adamant about not using it for more than 1.5 - 2 weeks at the MOST. I also had some internal personal conflict of the, "Am I trading one for the other?" "Jumping from the frying pan into the fryer?" lol..and was actually told so by alot of people who didn't believe in the sub. I think this happens to a LOT of people. They go into it thinking , this is going to be a quick detox. And then you get stuck.

    As Far as long term use with suboxone, I feel like it totally makes sense for the type of patient that has mental drug addiction as well, and this is a some-what life long drug for them, because if they use it correctly, it keeps their cravings for narcotics or drug of choice at bay. That's great, i'm sure it saves peoples lives.
    For me, it did save my life and bring a sense of normalcy again, as I was going through physical withdrawal every few hours on the percocet and this was a miracle rescue drug. I started out at a very low dose (2mg per day) and tapered MYSELF down to about .025mg once at night. (that looks so small, it's literally a crumb of a 2mg pill) My Sub doc never ever has talked about my Sub (other than constantly telling me I should be proud for being his only patient on such a low dose.) I go in every 2 weeks and we talk about my anxiety (maybe) if i'm lucky, and never talk about tapering..I do it on my own. He's a very old "addiction specialist" and just believes when the time is right , the time is right, don't push yourself, be on it for as long as you want.
    I'm at the point now where i'm on such a rediculous dose (have been on it for a year now at this dosage) that it seems to the average person to be pointless. HOWEVER if I try to go ONE night without taking it, all hell breaks loose with my wonderful system. HORRID WD's come right on after about 16 hours of taking it. SO it seems like I could just stop taking it where it's just a small amount, but I guess somehow I have to figure this out from here. MAYBE every other night and just be stronger about dealing with the WD's? I guess I'll cross that bridge after I weather this current storm..

    SOO to get back to my earlier situation, as well as an update: The only reason I am able to function and write at this moment is b/c, at 9 hours into my WD I took the Sub. It was 9 hours of Diarreah, extreme restlessness, running nose, body aches, and basically I felt as though I was going to die, I shouldnt need to explain , you all know very well i'm sure! Sub Doc, and the pain doc were not returning calls ( i wanted to get the go-ahead to take the sub), so once I had the support of family here with me I took it, and right after the doc did call me.(pain doc) He told me to take 5 mg of percocet AFTER I had JUST taken the Sub to help with the WD's until the SUB kicked in. And, In addition he would give me a clonidine patch (believe it is a beta blocker that helps with blood pressure and to reduce some of the physical symptoms of the WD if i'm right?) and anti naseua medicine..and to jump in a hot shower, or any rescue mechanism I knew would work. WELL I thought the percocet part was complete and utter crazy talk. I mine as well shoot myself in the head. (this is the pain doc, not sub doc) SO i stuck it out and took more sub than normal (I think it ended up being almost 3/4 of a 2mg pill) and its now almost 3 hours later...and all of my WD's are gone, but I feel really over-medicated and weird. I think maybe that it's from taking too much, or more than usual of my Sub. OR it could be my blood pressure out of whack, I hear it can do weird things when you are on this type of roler coaster situation, the ringing in the ears, and fullness in my head. Ugh AND the sub doc STILL hasn't called. Im so mad. I am just looking forward to getting back on my normal dose tomm of sub and seeing how things go with pain. The test unfortunatly will be tomm, as I have an epidural injection in my disc tomm which gives me 2 days of horrific pain. I plan to load up on Advil and use the heating pad. The pain doc told me to think for a week with a clear head about whether I am ditching the Sub and getting on a fentanyl patch for good (or until can get this disk issue resolved) or, be on nothing. Right now I'm saying no to everything and will take pain because I have a family to take care of, i'm 27 with a 2 yr old and husband, and house to take care of ,....I would take pain over being put on all this ********, and I don't want to be dazed on something and miss my daughter's life.
    Sorry for going on and on, I just need to talk about this to feel better, and you guys have been a great help, and once I'm back on track in the next few weeks, it seems you guys would possibly be an excellent tool in helping me figure out and execute getting off the sub , since I am soo close to that. I am just thankful I made it through the day and can function right now. Thanks guys again
    XO
    Heather

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    bev49 is offline Banned
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    Dear Robert, I don't have time for a long message right now but let me just say this one little thing: I LOVE YOU!!!! LOL..... You always say the right thing, always make me (and no doubt many others here) feel better and I just think you're great.

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    HeatherLynn is offline New Member
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    no thoughts, people?

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    Hi heather
    I think we missed your post give us a minute and will get back to you.
    Talk soon, Melinda

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherLynn View Post
    no thoughts, people?




    Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I've had sleep problems and last night was my first night of sleep following two nights in a row of no sleep. I was out early last night and didn't post much. Was like a zombie last night.

    I can't believe an idiot dr said to take percocet after you had taken a suboxone dose. That is typical professional ignorance.

    As far as longterm use I don't approve but I won't get into a debate over it. Anyone can argue either side, I would rather leave that alone. I disagree with your old addiction specialist. I definitely would NOT stop suboxone in favor of going to fentanyl.

    If you want to get off the suboxone I can help you. Let me know if that is what you want to do. I don't ignore posts like it seems we did here with yours. Typically I'm on here daily and answer posts promptly. So let me know if you want help. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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