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Help! Literal nightmares from Methdone...switch to MSContin?
Help! Literal nightmares from Methdone...switch to MSContin?
I read several posts re: Methadone and am now convinced that switching from Suboxone to Methadone was a mistake.
Here's my story:
In July of this year, my pain doc put me on Sub to get me off a 4-year Vicodin dependence (not addiction) because of chronic pain from a messed up neck. BTW, I was the one who initiated the withdrawal request, not my doc---he was content with my remaining on Vic since I took a relatively low dosage (7.5/500 ES 6- 7 x p/day and had only escalated that dosage once in
four years (started out with 7.5/500 ES 3 x p/day). However, it made me erratic emotionally due a tendency towards bi-polar depression and it also made me mentally foggy and emotionally/spiritually detached, so I felt I needed to stop.
Anyway, I took the Sub for four months (only 1/2 pill p/day--much lower than the doc prescribed) for about 4 months for my chronic pain since I was so reluctant to start the Methadone he prescribed. However, the Sub worked only moderately for my pain and I could not take a higher dose because of unpleasant side effects. So, I detoxed myself off of the Sub using a combination of Tramadol and Motrin and scaling down gradually. It worked.
Then I started the Methadone prescription the doc had given me months before but which I never took until after I ran out of Sub. I have been on it just over a week taking 5 mgs 2-3 x p/day. Here's the very weird thing about this drug for me. During the day I feel pretty good-no side effects whatsoever and almost pain-free. But at night it's a completely different story.
I have the WORST non-stop dream sequences you can imagine, topped off by constant waking. Twice the dreams were so frightening I had to get up, turn on the light and sleep (more like a fitful sleep) with the light on all night.
The funny thing was, when I got up I prayed for the dreams to go away the bad dreams disappeared and in their place I'd get good dreams yes, but they were non-stop, almost frenzied and very bizarre--not frightening or evil but completely disassociated and the stuff of a fantasy/sci-fi film blockbuster. They make Lord of the Rings look boring! (Too bad I can't remember them--the really would make a fantastic screenplay.)
It's obvious these bizarre hallucinations/dreams are due to the Methadone. For that reason alone, I have to stop the Methadone immediately or I will be a walking zombie due to lack of sleep. I'm actually afraid to go to bed tonight!
Anyway, I do have a prescription for MsContin that I only used once or twice. Since I've only been using the Methadone for about 8 or 9 days can I just switch over immediately to MsContin? How long does it take to get addicted to Methadone? How does MSContin work compared to Methadone?
Also, should I continue using the Tramadol? Unfortunately, that seems to have a strange side effects on me as well though it's not too bad--a sort of rushing, buzzing noise in my ear.However, I read somewhere that Tramadol, though not officially a controlled substance can also be addicting. It's a strange drug because apparently it tricks you into thinking you have no pain.
ONE MORE THING. Because I moved I had to switch doctors. This new doc is not really a pain specialist (he's a D.O.) and he didn't really want me to take the Methadone so he prescribed Cymbalta (an anti-depressant that has an off label use for nerve pain) plus some sort of anti-inflammatory that I haven't started using yet. Frankly, from what I've been told that's not going to cut it for the level of chronic pain I have. (But I'm willing to try it if for some reason MsContin doesn't work.)
So, can I take MsContin with Cymbalta and/or Tramadol? Does anybody have experience with any of these?
I'm so frustrated with my insurance company I may just go back to my old doc (who at least was a real pain specialist) and just pay cash to see him.
Thanks so much for any help you can give! I do need to make a decision ASAP re: a replacement for Methadone.
Last edited by piperlaurie; 10-27-2007 at 03:28 PM.
Piper, I sure would try the anti-inflamatory and give it a chance before going to ms-contin. Once you start that route, you will become dependant on it and no, I would not take ms-contin with Tramadol.
I do have experience with ms-contin and methadone. Methadone never worked for me at all, the morphine did. In my case, Morphine ruined my life for eight years and ruined my marriage of 15 years.
Please just be sure you need the relief from pain before starting something like morphine.
Good luck and God bless you piper. Pain can be a terrible master.
please read CYMBALTA and ULTRAM
please talk to your doctor immediately about taking CYMBALTA and ULTRAM. these 2 drugs in combination are known to cause seziures. you can't just quit taking either of them either because of the known reaction to stoping them cold turkey. yes i'm on both of them also, well i was but quit taking them because of the way they made me feel. i didn't realize i should have talked to my doctor first. please talk to your doctor ASAP.
i was on methedone for 3 months. quit cold turkey without any other pain meds. my doctor didn't believe the side effects i said i was getting from the methedone. told me he had been using it for a long time and had never had a patient tell him about any of the side effects i had. well he either wasn't listening or those other people didn't ever go back to him. i became very agitated. i paced the floors. when i wasn't thinking about suicide i was thinking of killing someone else. it didn't matter who. i spent about 6 weeks screaming at my mom and husband. i was a real mess. good thing they love me as much as they do or i would probably be dead from the methedone.
it is too bad that you have to quit taking the vicodin especially since you were getting pain relief from it and hadn't had to keep uping your dose. i am going thru hell with the doctors also. it really sucks to be in chronic pain and have to move. i haven't had adaquet medical care since i've moved. you really do need to talk to your doctor, especially if they will listen to you. if you can afford it you may have a good idea with going back to your old pain mgt.
kinda funny when I first read this
Sorry to say this, but dependent on vicoden means the same as addicted. Dont believe just cause a doctor tells you you are dependent that you arent addicted. You would have not been put on sub if you werent addicted. We would all be labeled as dependent if that was the case. Sorry to say but you are addicted, if you werent you wouldnt have to take suboxone or methodone. They are used most of the time for treating addiction. Suboxone is just for treating addiction/dependence. Ask anyone addict here, we were all dependent on opiates. That is the definition of addiction almost. Being dependent on something to be able to maintain. If you werent addicted you wouldnt need methadone or suboxone, hate to break it to ya. Your doctor sounds like he just doesnt want to scare you by telling you are addicted. He/she is sugarcoating it saying you are dependent. Even if a doctor gives you a script, it doesnt mean you arent gona get addicted. You can take recommended dose or take less and still be addicted as you sound to be. Reguardless, if you went from vicodin, to subs to methadone you are only raising your tolerence to opiates/opioids.
here is the list from strongest to weakest opiate/opioids
aspirin (believe it or not is an opioid )
morphine (ms contin)
morphine (iv use)
burprenophone (main ingredient in suboxone)
Now look at the list above and see how much on the list you are jumping around, you are going from strong to stronger back and fourth, back and fourth. Now the opiates (hydrocodone, demorol, ms contin, oxy) feel the best. The opioids like burenophine/suboxone and neurontin and methadone hit the receptors differently. Its quite a bit stronger in a sense the way it works with the body. Maybe you dont need as much methadone as you were put on. Technically they even though suboxone has a more powerful opioid, they put less buprenophine in the sub, for lower abusers. Stuff like vikodin, and oxy, and tramadol. They usually give the methadone to stronger users that use a lot of oxy, >>>>>>, iv morphine and so on. All opiates/opioids are at different strength levels. I think you would be more likely to have a stonger addiction/dependence overall if you go with the MS contin. I think it would be an over all bad choice and youd end up realising you are addicted. If you werent addicted, you wouldnt have been given suboxone, ( its not a pain reliever) Its for addiction only. Methadone however has been used for pain manangement in some instances. However if you werent addicted you wouldnt need suboxone or methadone to quit your so called dependence. Call it what it is. Its hard to realise that you are addicted, it just sounds bad. But honey it sounds like you are addicted. You would go cold turkey from vicodins with no problems if you werent addicted. Once again dont fool your self, all of us addicts are were dependent or still are dependent on opiates/opioids at one time or another.
Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post, but I just have to respond to some of the misinformation in Normankay's response to piperlaurie.
First of all, aspirin is NOT an opiate. It is an NSAID, and it works by inhibiting the production of prostoglandin, which in turn inhibits the brain's ability to send pain signals. The active chemical in aspirin was first found in the bark of the willow tree, unlike opiate drugs which originate from the opium poppy.
Nextly, there is most certainly a difference between opiate dependence and opiate addiction. All chronic pain patients who take opiate drugs continuously for a period of months will become physically dependent. Not all opiate dependent people become addicted though.
Dependence is a physical condition which requires that the patient taper off the opiate medication to avoid physical withdrawal symptoms
Addiction is characterized by a pattern of behavior - things like continuing to use opiate drugs after the pain has resolved, continuing to use the drugs despite negative consequences, overwhelming fixation on getting and using the drug.
Wait! I'm not done! Methadone is used as a replacment therapy for opiate addicts, and it is also used for pain control in chronic pain patients. The fact that your doctor gave you a scrip for Methadone does not mean you're an addict. In fact, when Methadone is used to treat addiction (as opposed to pain) it has to be dispensed daily from a special clinic.
Suboxone is also used in treatment for opiate addicted people, but it is prescribed to taper pain-patients off of high doses of opiate pain medication when they want to stop taking the medication and try other methods of pain management. Suboxone/Subutex is also prescribed off-label for pain control in chronic pain patients, and is sometimes prescribed for anxiety and depression as well.
As to Normankay's list of opiate drugs and their relative strength, please take into consideration dosing differences, tolerance levels and the fact that different people react to the different opiates in different ways. So, the fact that you are moving from weaker to stronger opiates really doesn't mean a whole lot. Like the thing Normankay said about there being less buprenorphine in Suboxone because it's for addicts is totally backward. Suboxone as used for addiction has more buprenorphine in it, when used as a pain reliever it is prescribed at very low doses.
I wish you luck in your search for relief from your pain. If you have to take opiates to feel well enough to function in your life, and you become dependent, that is ok. Studies have shown that when chronic pain patients use opiate pain medication they generally use it as prescribed and though they develop physical dependence (also called habituation) they rarely become addicted.
Edited to add: I would read up on Cymbalta, especially regarding withdrawals from that medication before starting on it. I've heard it's a hard one to quit.
Last edited by bottlecappie; 10-29-2007 at 01:33 AM.
Reason: to add one last thing
Couldn't have said it better Bottlecappie!!!! We all have to be careful that we are giving the right ingo out.We all are here because we care and that's great but we need to be careful.Heck I have given the wrong info before but thankfully someone jumped in and corrected me.We do a good job here and I know that you all care and that means alot to everyone.....Dave
Sorry for some of the misrepresentation, but dependence/addicted. Call it what you want. Really its a matter of opinion to which doctor you talk to.
As for the Aspirin in list of opiates. That originally came from a post by MPVT. Its funny he is here saying itst not, when I first heard it was from him.
mpvt here is your opiate comparison chart, taken from your post
If aspirin isnt on the list you shouldnt have put it there to compare with if it wasnt.
Now back to the dependence and addiction part. Hate to break it to you but it is both the same in many doctors books. You have your opinion and I have mine.
If you go to a doctor and say you think you are addicted, he will agree with you. If you go and say you feel dependent for the same patient. He again will probably agree with you. Dont get it confused , dependence and addiction are words that doctors use to comfort you.
As for amount of buprenophine used in suboxone. You seem to have not read it clearly. For pain management with buprenophine they give you more. When its with in suboxone its less buprenophine. I dont know what you didnt understand about that. Suboxone is clearly stated its use is for addicts. You need to go to the suboxone site to clarify your ideas on the drug it sounds like. Buprenophine by itself is a pain reliever yes.
What sounds funny is all addicts use suboxone and methadone to taper down with. If opiate addicts had enough opiates they would taper with them if they could. Opiates dont descriminate, its not one person gets addicted and another one gets dependent. Its two of the same. Re-read your facts maybe, I discussed this question with my doctor this morning and we both found it rather amusing to the dis illusion you are talking about piper. My doctor also did enlighten me about aspirin, but said overall I had it spot on.
So go on and suggest ms contin, maybe read some of the other posts here about how most opiate pain relief patients werent addicts before they started using opiates for pain relief. After a few years became addicts using opiate pain relief. I looked for your description of dependence on mayo clinic and they both were one in the same.
Methadone like I stated to, is used for pain relief. Suboxone isnt used anywhere for pain relief, hate to break it to you. Buprenophine alone is. Not suboxone, you should know they both arent the exact same. I think you need to not confuse others.
Normankay, you are completely off base with your ideas about dependency vs. addiction. They are not one in the same. Bottlecappie's definition is correct. I will list a few sources for you,
"Dependence vs. addiction. The words "addiction" and "dependence" are often used interchangeably, but they are not synonymous. Dependence and tolerance refer to physiologic responses to a drug, while addiction is a behavioral and psychological phenomenon."
"In his article, Tommasello hopes to point out the difference between dependency and addiction, stating that “the biological processes involved in the relief of pain are precisely the same processes that lead to physical dependence.”
“If someone is on a sufficient dose for long enough, that person is going to become physically dependent,” Tommasello stresses. “There is nothing that science can do to avoid that. It is simply a side effect of the long-term use of narcotic drugs.”
The author believes it is counterproductive to label such dependent individuals as drug addicts. “That person's problem is pain, not addiction. Labeling him or her as a drug addict can ignite feelings of shame and guilt, a stigma unwarranted in these patients.”"
"Many people who are in chronic pain take medication that could possibly lead to addiction in their search for pain management. However, most people will not become "addicted" to their pain medication even though they may become habituated (or dependent) to it. There is a difference between physical dependency and addiction."
I hope that this is clear enough for you, and maybe you will stop spreading misinformation. If you need more sources then I would be happy to provide them for you. I hope this helps everyone understand the difference between addiction and dependence.
I hope everyone has pain-free day,
I can post things that provide info that helps make my point to
Now its more a matter of opinion, we arent doctors here and nobody here apparently has the over all correct answer. There are multiple studies defing my point just as much as yours circa. If you want I can be a dip to and post the same ******************** stating my opinions as well. So why dont you realise its not spreading wrong info, you have your opinion and I have mine. Now you are nonsense spreading misinfo to people like me. So you are going to have to stop to. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. If I wnwant to I can do the same search on google stating dependency is addiction. Go to any NA, AA, most pain specialist, methadone doctor or counselor, Pshychiatrist and all will have different opinions. All of them on one side of the fence or the other. Dont tell me I am spreading wrong info, when you googled a few sites to show me you probably havent even read and tell me you are right. Why dont you read them. Now we are all here to help like mpvt said. Most of us however arent doctors so technically all of us here are spreading our own opinions. You guys are attacking my opinion which I feel is true. I am not attacking yours. She asked for peoples opinions, none of us are certified to give the most correct advise, not even you circa, or piper. Now I am through with this thread, I am not going to have a p i s s i n g contest over opinions anymore. I am here to help when I can, if you have talked with as many addicts as you think you have, you would be more to believe what I have said. Now showing this post to over 5 addicts I can say they think the main idea over dependence and addiction are one in the same whether you like it or not. You may have to get out of the house more and quit living your life to what you have read plainly from another internet site. Talk to real breathing people you can see LOL, which a lot of people here dont do apparently. I cant help it if a majority of people here are hermits and dont talk to real people getting most of there info from another online opinion.
Last edited by Normankay; 10-29-2007 at 01:39 PM.
The best site describing the difference, very well I will post. I cannot simply post a part of it because it is too long, but it explaines the whole deal, about why the confusion between addiction and dependence exists in the first place. It is an interview with a leading addiction and pain managenment specialist by the National Pain Foundation. I really suggest that people read this site if they have any sort of feeling that addiction and dependence are the same. Normankay, your source is not even relavent to this argument because it is not discussing medical patients,not to mention your source does not tell anyone that there is not a difference between drug dependency and addiction. Your opinion only puts an added weight on patients who have done nothing wrong and attaches a stigma to a legitimate treatment that does not belong there. Check out the site below for more information on this topic, anyone who is interested.
I hope everyone is ahving a pain-free day,
Er, nothing personal and I don't want to turn this into some kind of flame war about what is and what isn't an opiate, but it is an unmitigated fact that Aspirin is not an opiate, narcotic, or anything like that.
Yes of course Aspirin is not an Opioid, I do not think there is any argument about that. The reason it is on the list ( I have seen aspirin on opioid strength comparison lists before), is to show the relative strength of the opioids to the aspirin. IE That aspirin is weaker than propoxyphene, which is weaker than codiene. It is not saying that aspirin is an opioid. I hope this helps clear things up a bit about that. Apparently Normankay was a bit confused about why it was on the Opioid comparison sheet and that must have been why he thought it was an opioid. IT IS THERE FOR COMPARISON.
I hope everyone has a pain-free day,
Last edited by circa9870; 10-29-2007 at 03:05 PM.
Help! Literal nightmares from Methdone...switch to MSContin?
Thanks everyone for your responses/help. As to the addiction vs. dependence controversy, I'm going with Bottlecap and Circa 9870 simply because medically they are absolutely 100% right. I'm saying this not because, as NormanKay asserts, that I'm looking for some sort of absolution for being dependent on pain meds, but because as a professional writer and researcher, I know where and how to look to obtain accurate information. It's how I make my living, after all.
The medical consensus is that there's is a clear distinction between addiction and dependence. The sources which Bottlecap and Circa have cited, are only just a few...there are hundreds more that say the same thing. Enough said.
I know that addicts would love to blur that distinction for reasons that can only be described as self-serving. Unfortunately, it's because of addicts that people with chronic pain seeking legitimate help to manage their pain now have to deal with FDA phobia on the part of physicians, etc., making it even harder to get legitimate help. Case in point. When I went to my new doctor (because I had moved) I had to sign no less than six pieces of paper that were all directly related to that above-mentioned phobia. He also would not prescribe any of the medications my previous pain doctor has prescribed for me, instead he gave me Cymbalta and anti-inflammatories, which really don't do anything.
Because of what I see is clearly going to be undermanagement of my chronic pain, I am now forced to go back to my old pain doctor who lives over an hour away. I will also have to pay cash for both my visit and my meds since my insurance will not cover any doctor who lives 30 minutes away from where I live. This would not have happened if it weren't for FDA phobia caused by addicts who abuse prescription drugs.
By the way, just so you know, NormanKay, I undermanage my own pain care, usually taking less than the doctor prescribed, tolerating a certain amount of pain just to ensure I don't start abusing any drug. That is the not the behavior of an addict, trust me.
Thanks again everyone for your help. If anyone does have some legitmate and accurate information (or their own personal experiences) re: methadone vs. MsContin it would be helpful to hear what you have to say. Keep in mind, I am NOT looking for a buzz, or false sense of euphoria...I only want to live a normal life relatively free from pain.
just showing you what you missed
The above is the same address to what circa posted earlier on drug dependency versus addiction. If you read through the whole article which it looks like you missed, the first comment says this
"Fresh Air Reply to this Comment
Wow.... a voice of sanity rises through the muck, that is this country's drug knowledge/treatment/policy. I am tired of reading about only drug "abuse" never drug "use"/drug "treatment" ... and getting detox help is near impossible because of all this confusion. I am now addicted to the back pain meds that 8 years of doctors, hospitals, clinics and specialists have all Rx'd for me.... I take full resposibility for my addiction/ dependency, I looked it up and I learned about the medicine before I took it, so I knew this day would come, I just didn't know that there's no safe, decent place to detox, once you are dependent or addicted to an opiate "
Here is the definition of addict from
Look at the definition of the word addict when used as a verb.
ad·dict /n. ˈædɪkt; v. əˈdɪkt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[n. ad-ikt; v. uh-dikt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who is addicted to an activity, habit, or substance: a drug addict.
–verb (used with object) 2. to cause to become physiologically or psychologically dependent on an addictive substance, as alcohol or a narcotic.
3. to habituate or abandon (oneself) to something compulsively or obsessively: a writer addicted to the use of high-flown language; children addicted to video games.
And sorry to have made anyone mad, but after reading almost all day on this topic, much say there is a grey area between the two. In alot of cases dependency goes my way and just about as many go the way piper and circa are saying. Throughout many readings people may or maynot justify there use by saying dependent when addicted and vis versa. There really is a lot of contradicting evidence I have just read online today. (probably 15+) I don't come to make anyone mad. Many doctors don't know if there is in fact a difference. Basically through some readings a dependent person tapers when they want to get off. I have tapered many times with opiates. Its only as of late (the last 6 months) I havent tapered as easily as I have before. I finally ran out of tapering "will" because I got my dose of opiates too high to feel comfortable enough to taper. I then went to Methadone detox, and it works eh...ok, I guess. So I was an addict who tapered. For the first couple years I used opiates at what most would consider a prescribed dose, ( about 3-4 vicodins a day). One day I ran out of vicodins, and the only thing available was something stronger, that was oxycontin. I was affraid of this drug at first, I was able to get it for a few years before I actually tried it. I heard stories of people dying and so on, so I just was nervous and affraid of it. Once I moved up to oxycontin, I realised I probably was never going to want to take vicodin again, just because it worked better. I tried to quit cold turkey and withdrawled hard so I then tapered to quit. When pain came again, I used again for awhile tapered then quit. I probably tapered and quit about 4+ times. People dependent and addicted feel the same withdrawls, there is no difference. All opiate addicted patients taper usually with either methadone, suboxone, or opiates. That is why there is a grey area with the dependence and addiction. (From readings)
From the posts that circa posted its more of an opinion, there is no fact stated. If you want to read the posts circa posted you will notice that its all opinion. Reguardless most doctors dont know the difference. I never saw anything about a phobia you are talking about piper. The paper a doctor shows you before you are prescribed addictive opiates is a contract that basically states that you know you are taking a substance that can be addicting and no way is the doctor who prescribes you responsible for any bad things such as addiction or death. Its not because of addicts, thats just nonsense. Also, in one of the readings circa also posted it clearly states how when dependent you come to a point with opiates where you technically need to raise at a point because you have become tolerant. This again is another greay area stated in the readings. An average addict raises his or her dose when the opiates dont work anymore, just as a dependent would. Now you can call it what you want. I am just stating things I have read today whether you like it or not. You can read all you want, and have just as many quotes to help make your opinion validify in your head. I have done just the same, finding readings saying sometimes its just a matter of opinion. There is no definate fact on either.
Well, I find it amazing that you can tell me what the papers said that I signed (remember there were five of them) when you weren't even there to read them. Trust me. I read them and they were all FDA-phobic. Doctors are getting nervous for fear they will get stomped on for "overprescribing". Fortunately for us chronic pain sufferers there is a new bill that was just introduced to the House that will make it easier for doctor and patient alike.
Anyone that wants this bill to go through can log on here: http://www.painfoundation.org/
That's all I have to say on the subject. I rest my case.
After thinking about this for most of the day, I feel I have to say something.
First of all, as well meaning as they may be, Doctors, researchers, scientists, and others will never understand addiction, alcoholism, cravings, etc unless they have experienced it themselves.
I have been clean and sober for over twenty three years, have gone to thousands of AA/NA meetings, and know several thousand alkies and addicts. The story is always the same, even if each story is different in a personal way.
I smoked my first cigarette at age 9 and was hooked. I had my first taste of alcohol at age 10, and from that day on, I could never get enough. Alcohol is the oldest drug there is and addiction to it is not much different from being hooked on drugs.
At age 17, I joined the Navy, and from that time on, my life was ruled by my addictions. I was a garbage can. I put everything into my body I could to make me feel high, to forget, to feel better than anyone else. I popped pills and smoked dope to prolong the effect of alcohol. People that didn't drink and use like I did were scum. Losers. Women were toys to be used and discarded. Sexual addiction is a powerful driving force. The hell I descended into was not just a physical and mental addiction, but also an emotional and spiritual addiction. I alienated my family, my friends, and eventually my wife and children. I reached a point where I could not get high any more nor could I sober up. Alcohol poisoning almost killed me before I was checked into a detox center.
All those years that I drank and used, I did it for the EFFECT, to change how I was feeling. That my friends is addiction.
At fifteen years of sobriety, I found myself taking oxycontin for my back, hips and legs. Before long I noticed that the oxy made me feel pretty mellow and it scared the ******************** out of me. I switched to ms_contin and no longer got any change in how I felt. I took the morphine for another six or seven years and indeed became dependant on it and that dependance did cause some problems. I never did become emotionally dependant and never took a pill to get high. And that is the basic difference. Instead of loving the drug as I did when I was a user, I hated taking it. It bothered my spirit.
To end this, almost a month ago, on my own, I got off the morphine and did indeed go through hell again for a week, but that is past now. I have absolutely no craving for morphine or anything else because I did not abuse it, I just used it.
And that my friends is how I see the difference between addiction and dependance.
For all that struggle with pain, God bless you and may he give you the help you need.
Well I had asked both of my parents what kind of papers they had signed.
My mom had breast cancer and was put on opiate pain relief, and my dad had cancer in his lymphnodes and was put on opiate pain relief. I asked them both if they had to sign any kind of phobia based paperwork. They basically said you sound full of it. Go ahead I have already read a few mistakes in your posts on this thread alone and too tired to point them out. Reguardless, the papers they signed were legal release forms for being put on long term opiate pain relief. My dad and mom arent the type to skip through important information and just sign it. They said they both brought them home read them over then signed it. According to their memory they said it was to let them know that they (doctors) are in no way responsible for addiction. Reguardless, you can believe what you want. A big part of addiction is denial. As for when my mom had cancer that was 4 years ago, my dad has less then a year of being cancer free. Both inteligent and no longer using opiates for pain relief. You can say all you want about your supposed 5 papers, its funny how you remember them when you signed them 5 years ago. Maybe California is different. I am not coming here completely uninformed. You can tell me all you want you arent this and that. It sounds to me like you are taking the sides with people that have the same opinion as you. Thats fine. I basically am saying that opiates dont discriminate. My mom or dad havent drank, smoked or done any illicit drugs unless prescribed in over 20 years for religeous reasons and by choice. I however go to NA and AA meetings, talk to two doctors weekly and have and will go with what they say. I am not going to just go with what you say, because thats what you say. If you know the medical field, the majority is ran off opinion. Meaning that all doctors have different beliefs on what they feel should be done, esp in prescribing pain relief. Some dont even prescribe opiates when they have a patient in pain relief, more due to their personal beliefs not because of what the overall consensus is. You should maybe educate yourself more. I will leave it at that. Fine you arent addicted, you are dependent and so all of us addicts werent lol. Now that just sounds ridiculous. Believe what you want to.
BOTTLECAPPIE!!!!!!!!!!!! You Go Girl ~~~~~~
Hey girl.....welcome to the insanity! (Kidding)......I was going to suggest for you to come here and vent, but I see you've already beat me to it! Glad to see you!
Janice I shall remain grateful for Suboxone...........
Thank you Gary, your comments were very lucid and compelling. Unlike someone else on this board who, quite frankly, writes in such a garbled, disjointed fashion, I tune out before I even get to the 4th sentence.
Anyway, I appreciate your sharing your story. I think you make an excellent distinction between addicted vs. dependent. I especially liked when you said:
[I]"And that is the basic difference. Instead of loving the drug as I did when I was a user, I hated taking it. It bothered my spirit."
It does most definitely bother my spirit taking these drugs--even at the low dose that I'm currently using. I think it more than significant when a drug may not effect your during the day (like methadone) but gives you nightmares at night. Even taking a nap during the day, this doesn't happen. What does that tell you?
I believe it's because at night we are at our most vulnerable--open to both good and evil, as it were. I know this because when it comes to the dream world I am very sensitive. I've had amazing God-sent dreams that proved to be amazingly prophetic so it disturbs me that I may be opening myself up the "dark side of the force" to put it in film venacular. I also find it interesting that the very word "pharmaceutical" is a Greek word that's partial definition is "to practice witchcraft." When you consider that just about every other ad on TV these days is an ad selling some form of "witchcraft", i.e, drugs, it does make you wonder where we're headed with all this.
Anyway, for me, apart from a miraculous healing, I don't see what choice I have to deal with my constant pain from a combination of herniated discs, reversed cervical curve, stenosis, bone spurs and now, arthritis, even though I'm too young to be in this condition.
I do have one question for you. You said you took MsContin for six or seven years and only had "some problems". If I may ask, what were those problems? If I have to take chronic pain meds, I would like to take one that doesn't give me nightmares at night! The thing about methadone is that it's so cheap! And since I will be without insurance for who knows how long, that is one less expense I would have. I only take 10 mgs p/day of methadone, with one dose of Tramadol in between if needed. I don't want to go beyond that for sure.
Thanks again Gary for sharing your thoughts-and your life experience. I really appreciate your taking the time to do so in a thoughtful and kind manner.
Originally Posted by gdr245
Hi Piper, and thanks for your reply.
When I started the ms-contin, the side effects weren't a problem for a while. I will post a list of the possible side effects listed on the drug information page you get when clicking on the morphine page and comment on it.
shallow breathing, slow heartbeat; I never had this problem
seizure (convulsions);Not for me
cold, clammy skin; I experienced this sometimes
confusion; Never noticed it
severe weakness or dizziness; or Some dizziness, but not too bad most of the time
feeling light-headed, fainting. I did blackout a couple of times. The last time I blacked out, I collapsed on my left leg and broke my left foot and tore a ligament in my knee.
Less serious side effects are more likely to occur, such as:
constipation; This was a major problem for me. Eventually the medicine I was taking to deal with the constipation gave me problems. This is one of the reasons I decided to get off the morphine.
warmth, tingling, or redness under your skin; Had a lot of hot flashes. Yes, I am a guy.
nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, diarrhea, loss of appetite; I have a bad stomach to begin with and I think the morphine made it worse.
dizziness, headache, anxiety; Only the dizziness
memory problems; or Memory loss was a big problem for me.
sleep problems (insomnia). To the contrary! After I started taking doses over 30 mg, I would sleep all night and most of the day. 60mg three times a day turned me into a Zombie. Dropped back to twice a day and it helped some.
Another problem I had was with getting Doctors to prescribe it for me. Some just won't prescribe morphine except for terminal cancer patients. I also had a lot of problems with the VA not filling my scripts on time.
Having the addictive personality that I have, I never did get comfortable with taking the stuff. When you wake up one day and realize your life revolves around having a sufficient supply of any Narcotic med around, in order to stay out of withdrawal, it can be a real problem for some. It was for me.
I am fortunate that epidural shots have helped me enough so that I am not in constant severe pain. The only thing I can take for pain now is Tylenol and I'm sure everyone knows how much help that is. I can't really do much like normal housework, yardwork, etc. but I don't have to do much of that. I too have arthritis, Stenosis, bulging discs, bone spurs, and all the fun that goes with ulcers, bypass surgery, BPH, and diabetes, and on and on. Having such poor health, I take responsibility for and that is probably what causes me to have so many side effects from meds.
Most of my life I feared pain and that is what drove me to taking the morphine. No more. I will not fear pain again.
I would never tell anyone that they should not take narcotic medicine for legitimate pain that effects their lives. Ms-contin is a Godsend for some people and take it for long periods of time without all the side effects I had. Everyone reacts differently to differing meds.
I can only share my experience and urge people to be completely honest with themselves when they consider taking narcotic meds. Many, unfortunately don't have a lot of choices. Where once I had complete disreguard for people, I now feel a great deal of compassion, and the human condition saddens me. I take comfort in believing that God only gives us what we need.
I wish you a pain free life piper, and hope you find it.
asprin in the opiate comparison chart
Further up on this thread someone was saying that aspirin was on an opiate chart which I had posted myself.Let me clear this up so that people don't think I'm some idiot thinking aspirin is an opiate!!
That chart is a Opiate Comparison Chart comparing the strength of opiates to morphine.The aspirin I assume is there only as a example of it's pain killing strength to morphine.I hope this clears things up and I will try and find the whole chart and post it as it's quite interesting. Have a good day everyone......Dave
Ok, I found it,as you can see they are listing the aspirin only as a comparison..Dave
Opioid Strength (Codeine) Equivalent Dose (30 mg codeine) Strength (Morphine) Equivalent Dose (10 mg morphine mg)
Aspirin 1/36 1080 mg 1/360 3600 mg
Difusinal 1/16 480 mg 1/160 1600 mg
Dextropropoxyphene 1/4 120 mg 1/40 400 mg
Codeine 1 30 mg 1/10 100 mg
Tramadol 1 30 mg 1/10 100 mg
Anileridine 2.5 12 mg 1/4 40 mg
Demerol 3.6 8.3 mg .36 27.8 mg
Hydrocodone 6 5 mg .6 16.67 mg
Morphine 10 3 mg 1 10 mg
Oxycodone 15-20 1.5-2 mg 1.5-2 4.5-6 mg
Morphine IV/IM 40 .75 mg 4 2.5 mg
Hydromorphone 50 .6 mg 5 2 mg
Oxymorphone 70 0.4 mg 7 1.4 mg
Levorphanol 80 0.26 mg 8 .8 mg
Buprenophine 400 0.075 mg 40 .25 mg
Fentanyl 500-1000 0.03-0.06 mg 50-100 0.1-0.2 mg
Carfentanyl*** 1,000,000 30 pcg 100,000 100 pcg
***Used only in sedating large animals.
Last edited by mpvt; 10-31-2007 at 04:12 PM.
Thanks for your reply and for putting so much effort into it--your detailed list was very helpful. I took one 30 mg of MsContin yesterday and it lasted a very long time--too long, really because once again, I had the weird dreams even though in my effort to minimize my intake of pain meds (an effort I've always made--even with Vicodin), I am now trying only one 5-mg dose of Methadone p/day, followed seven hours later with 30 mg of MsContin.
Today I will try cutting the 30 mg in half and take only 15 mg of MsContin (no later than 3:00 pm) and see what that does to my sleep tonight. The reason I'm switching back and forth between the two is so that I won't develop too much of a tolerance to either. I'm not sure if this strategy will work. When I see my doctor in a few weeks I will ask him unless you or someone else on this board knows if this will work!
Anyway, the real issue is to find a way NOT to have to take either of these drugs. I can tell you that if the weird dreams and/or nightmares continue I will have to stop them all. I can't go back to Vicodin because that drug made me very erratic emotionally (plus giving me mind fog and a feeling of detachment). Thankfully, my daughters tell me that my temperment has vastly improved now that I am off of Vicodin.
I am now looking into natural alternatives for pain control that, I'm told, might actually work. One of them is a product called Mangosteen.
My $64,000 question to you is how do you deal with your pain? If you can't do anything, how do you enjoy life?
I ask that because I truly believe we are not supposed to walk around in bondage to pain. While finding "natural" alternatives to pain meds is a worthwhile goal, even more worthwhile is finding a "supernatural" alternative. After saying everything I said, it may sound contradictory when I tell you this, but I believe that God can, and wants to heal people. When Jesus said "I've come to give you live and give it more abundantly" I know that "abundant life" included our physical healing.
If you read the Bible it says that Jesus went about "healing ALL that were oppressed of devil." There was no one he did not heal who wanted to be healed (believe it or not some people would rather stay sick)--only in his hometown where "he could no mighty works because of their unbelief." Even looking at this logically, if "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" why wouldn't that "all" include us today?
After all, God's will never changes, nor does his heart for hurting humanity for whom he willingly laid down his life so that we would not perish but have everlasting life. You and I are included in that hurting humanity, of that I have no doubt.
I have seen people receive miraculous healings and I really don't think it's difficult to receive from God; however, much like the Pharisees and the Saducees we make it difficult with our religious thinking that "makes the Word of God of no effect." That's why you see people in Third World countries who have nothing--no material goods or even a cursory knowledge of Christianity--hear that Jesus came and bore "their sins and carried away their sickness and disease"--and just believe it. Result? They receive divine healing. That's what desperation will do.
Okay, okay I'm preaching to myself here, just as much to you (and anyone else who reads this who is tried of living in constant pain.) As I write this, I've been reading scriptures that pertain to healing and building up my faith to receive from Jesus what I truly believe he wants to give me--and you--more than we even want to receive it! (Pasted scriptures below.)
I will be praying for you Gary--I can see how your heart has been changed. I believe you when you say: "Where once I had complete disregard for people, I now feel a great deal of compassion, and the human condition saddens me. I take comfort in believing that God only gives us what we need."
You in turn have encouraged me by your courage and compassion and I thank you for that. I truly do pray, as the apostle Paul prayed, that "above all things you will prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers."
Originally Posted by gdr245
Last edited by piperlaurie; 11-01-2007 at 04:07 PM.
Hello again piper. I don't believe anyone should go through life suffering from constant pain, nor do I believe God wants that for anyone. Jesus said on many occasions that the light of God resides in us all. Having a Godlike nature, if we could only fully realize that, we would not need to suffer. Unfortunately the human condition is such that we must learn our lessons and take small steps one at a time. I study Theosophy and all religions, in search for the truth, but I still believe that God saved me from an alcoholic death and gave me another chance.
As for my pain, it is not bad enough to ruin my life. I ask Jesus for help when I need it and I get it. I know this is not the case for everyone. If I do not give my pain power over me, if I keep my attitude right, I do ok.
Unfortunately, many, many people must take narcotic meds to live a decent life. There is nothing wrong with that. If they become dependant on that, it can't be helped. I am dependant on heart meds, blood pressure med, etc. etc. I quit the morphine because it was the right thing for ME to do. I just really had a lot of trouble with the side effects I mentioned earlier.
I don't know why you are having the dream problems. Perhaps it is the Methadone. I really hesitate to give any medical advice, but when I started the opiates, it was 15mg twice a day. At that low dosage, it doesn't hook you too bad and you won't be experiencing withdrawal symptoms because the pill is wearing off before you take another. You see a typical dose of ms-contin for someone that has been on it for awhile, would be something like 30mg once every eight hours. Most Doc's start their patients off slow and only increase the dose as tolerance to the drug builds.
Piper I wish you would see your Doctor and have a good talk with him or her and get a proper dosage schedule set up. You may find low doses twice a day will work for you for sometime. I don't know how persistant your pain is. After the Methadone, you may need more than 15mg. I just don't know.
I have looked at some of the herbal remedies and other natural remedies. I did pick up some white willow bark in case I needed it but have not been forced to try it yet. I'm trying Melatonin to help me sleep. That is still a problem after almost a month.
I wish I had a magic potion to offer people that are plagued with chronic pain. Like I said, it is sad that people suffer so. I really am one of the fortunate ones.
If you would like to email me, you can click on my nic and use the email link.
Love and light
Someone who is dependent on pain meds is just that, dependent on that med to help alleviate their pain and symptoms so they can function at least a little, for some of each day, and do some of the stuff a normal person would. We don't like having to rely on this stuff, we would give it up immediately if we had another solution. Dependent people, like us, worry about the side effects, the long term damage and we don't enjoy them at all. Many times, people in severe pain don't even experience euphoria and that is what draws so many others to abuse these drugs to begin with. Our bodies are fighting each day, just to function and enable us to get out of bed. We come to dread the drowsiness, the constipation, the nausea and etc. that results from using them, and that comes back sometimes for no reason, and of course again, everytime we have to adjust a dosage.
We are the people, who no matter how much we take, are never truly pain free, but if we can get some relief, a little easement of our agony, just a little cessation, we will take what we can get.
However, if we turn around, and one day, we can no longer get our meds, we will go home in our misery and cry. An addict will beg, borrow, or steal, in most cases, though not all, to get their fix. They don't wait for their doc to prescribe something, they will play doctor, pharmacy, and emergency room shopping games to get their next fix. If their doc gives them a scrip for a months supply, they are out far, far sooner, and desperately trying to figure out how to get more sooner than the regular prescribing schedule. They are the people who panic when they discover that you can no longer have refills on Schedule II drugs, and they have to go to their docs monthly to get a new scrip, because they know they will be out long before that month is up and in dangerous withdrawal if they don't find more.
So, before you call others an addict, read some of the posts on these boards, you will see addicts who have stolen pills from their own mothers, from cancer ridden relatives on their deathbeds, just to selfishly get their next fix. Yes, there are some who will not stoop that low, but many forget about everyone but themselves and needing their next fix, and they forget how to care. Then you will see the drastic difference.
A person who uses them as prescribed, who goes to their doc and asks for help when their pain is out of control, but will not try to self medicate, or deliberately take 10 pills at a time to get help, is not an addict. I know, very frequently, just because we have to use these types of meds, we are lumped together, by misinformed people, doctor's, pharmacists and sometimes even our own families. It is very sad, but just one of those things we have to shrug off and plod on. If you use them as you are supposed to, and do not abuse them, or hurt others, or con the docs to get stuff you don't need, then you are not an addict.
please get off methadone!!!!
please stop methadone.this is my second time kicking and dealing with the withdrawals and i would welcome any other painpill withdrawal over this.i was stupid to start back.2 weeks of hell is what you will go through if u dont stop now.please take my advice dont put yourself through it.
Your experieincing some of the most common side effects from changing from synthetic opiates like methadone and tramadol to the real drugs like MS contin. All of the drugs your taking have different side effects and yes I have taken every single drug out there including all of the ones you have mentioned so let me give you my experience with these drugs. First of all you should not switch over to methadone from any other synthetic or opiate drug until you have had time to let the other meds reach their 1/2 life in your system and your body cleanses them out of your system. Each drug has a different 1/2 life so you have to look up or ask your pharmacy or the Poison Control Center non emergency line what each drug's effeciacy and 1/2 life is. More importantly when using methadone, methadone is the most powerful manmade synthetic opiate made and it is used by the body very differently than most other drugs. Methadone is stored in the fat cells of the body versus being metabolized by the liver like most opiates therefore it takes up all of the receptor keys that you have in your brain for opiate pain medicine. I dont know how old you are but remember as a child when you looked at a castle and around the castle there were turrets with blocks and in between the blocks a man would stand and shoot an arrow out at the enemy, well your brain looks much the same in that there are key holes or opiate receptors and if you take methadone it will fill every single keyhole including the ones that MS contin and tramadol and any other medcine would use so the other meds become useless. Its very common when changing meds to have nightmares but remember sweetie they are only active brain waves that are occuring while your asleep, if you feel your in real danger then the situation is really a much different one than you explained. Methadone is by far the best pain killer that I have ever used and I have used every pain killer, short acting, long acting, man made and mother nature made so I would get back on the methadone as soon as possible. The nightmares will go away after a few days of adjusting to the methadone, what dosage are you taking and how many? I can tell you this and I am just being honest, from the way that you ask questions and the way you make statements, your hooked on these drugs especially if you really have been taking them for as long as you say so. But you have a disease or chronic pain that requires these meds so don't feel bad about it. To many people try to make this about "Drug Seeking" and "Drug Addiction" when then truly are millions of so many patients in pain that on a daily basis wont get help because doctors make them feel bad about taking long term opiates. Dont even get it a second thought, but please Educate, Educate, Educate, read all you can about your illness and the medicines your taking. I I hope this was any help if you have any other questions please let me know, you can also email me at email@example.com
take care and good luck
PS get yourself a big teddy bear to protect you until you get used to the methadone!
I just wanted to let you know that I totally agree with your posting. It was precise and precious for those of us afflicted with the horrible life of chronic pain. We are the last group of patients, it used to be the alcoholics that no one would help or even talk about, now its us the drug addicts and it makes me sick. Check out my posting below to Piper and lets chat sometime you can reach me at firstname.lastname@example.org
First, thank you all for responding to my posts and giving me your comments/suggestions/viewpoints. I don't doubt that any of you are trying to help in any way you can--no matter what your perspective.
I must set the record straight on several issues. First, I am not coming against addicts in any way, except when addicts refuse to get help and screw it up for the rest of us who truly need these meds for pain control--not for the sense of euphoria some of these pain meds give, etc. I assure you if I was doing it for that, I'd be back on Vicodin.
I do stand by my belief that I am physically dependent, not addicted to pain meds. Again, if I was addicted, tell me why in four years time, I only escalated my does of Vicodin once, and even then it was a minimal increase? I don't exhibit drug-seeking behavior, but what I do exhibit is a deep desire to not have to be dependent on any drug because all opiates -no matter what anyone may think--effects you on some level. I personally believe that is true even if we don't see it on the surface.
Having said that, if I'm somewhere and I start to feel more pain because it's past the time I'm supposed to take the Methadone (or whatever) and I don't happen to have the meds with me, of course I will start to feel anxious. Who wouldn't, knowing that the pain will only increase unless you do something to stop it? Is that drug seeking behavior?
To me, it's just being fearful of pain because, as we all know, pain's no picnic. (BTW, since someone asked, my chronic pain is from a combination of herniated discs, stenosis, a severe reversed cervical curve and arthritis in my neck. I also have had two back surgeries, the last one which was partially failed.)
Anyway, because of my belief that taking pain killers exacts a toll on my spiritual life, (I'm speaking of myself here--not anyone else--that's for each person to decide) my very real and necessary goal is to be off of ANY pain killers ASAP. (BTW, I stopped the MSContin and I'm still having the nightmares/weird dreams so I know now that it is the Methadone that is doing that to me--yes, even at only 5 mg's per day.)
I don't know if I can reach that goal, but at the very least, I would like to keep on taking as low a dose of possible on whatever pain med that DOES NOT give me nightmares!
Getting back to detoxing off Methadone...does anyone have suggestions how to best do this? Remember, that I switched from 4 years of Vicodin to Subxone for 3 months, then almost immediately over to Methadone which I have been on now for 3 weeks.
I see my pain doc on Tuesday. I was going to ask him if putting me back on Vicodin or starting Oxycontin and taking one or the other for just 2 weeks would help me get off Methadone. My logic, and I admit it could be very faulty here, is that I never had nightmares on Vicodin because of its short life (4 hours). As long as I didn't take Vicodin near bedtime I was okay. (This shows you I must be "allergic" --for lack of a better word-- to all opiates in the sense they all give me the same side effect while sleeping.
If anyone has any suggestions as to the best way to get off this nightmare-inducing Methadone, I would be very grateful! Also, if it does appear that all opiates give me nightmares is my only solution: (1) switch back to short acting opiates or (2) find a non-opiate based pain killer--either long or short acting?
Thanks for your post--I did learn a few things from it; however, I've been taking the methadone ( 5mg p/day) for three weeks now and I still have nightmares/weird dreams every night. I would think I'd be used to it by now!
Anyway, read my post and you will see what I'm trying to do about it. I wish "Teddy" would help but unless the teddy bear can wake me up in the middle of a bad dream, I'm afraid he'd be rather useless. Honestly, these dreams feel like hallucinations vs. dreams, even though technically I am asleep. It's very weird. Like I said, if I could remember them all, some of these dreams would make incredible fantasy/sci-fi films. Peter Jackson move over?
Originally Posted by mbales5459
Hey hope I don't screw up someone's post, I have been a fly on the wall for some time and now feel it's time to speak. No one thing said by any is in and of its self wrong or write. You say to may tow I say too mah tow dig it. Normankay is just not PC enough for the touchy feely side of this discussion.
I got a whole alphabet of letters behind my name and I don't know. I am also really high IQ and I still don't know. However, N I feel is true of heart and being honest with himself and others.
Originally Posted by Normankay