The hard part of Sobriety

[vduda]

You know when I was in the grip of my withdrawals that lasted month after month...I thought for sure this would be the hard part. I was wrong. Staying sober is the hard part. Popping, snorting, shooting is easy and withdrawing is temporary for most people, but the struggle with addiction is a daily battle. Right when I thought I had conquered my opiate addiction something happens in my life and my mind returns back to that comfortably numb feeling provided by just one shot of Dilaudid. Just like a dog returns to its vomit...so the addict returns to his or her drug of choice. I have been off of the opiates for over 8 months now. It is hard to believe. In the co???? of my sobriety I caught myself replacing my addiction with other acceptable drugs like alcohol and cigarettes. I found myself in bars and the old pool halls I frequented when I was in my early phase of my opiate addiction. Drugs circle around me like vultures waiting to devour the rotting carcas. Dealers hide in shadows like demons.

You cannot serve God and the things of this world. You will love one and hate the other. At 41 I finally had the wisdom to see where my current path was leading me...to destruction. It would have only been a matter of time before I relapsed and started hitting the opiates. At least my honesty has saved me. On this forum I have opened my heart and spoke of my struggles and have literally been torn apart by other addicts. I am bewildered at this type of behavior.

Well, I have chosen to serve one God and that is Jesus Christ. For too long I have been luke warm and sitting on the fence. This weekend so much happened in such a manner that it could only have been ochestrated by God himself. Now I have cut ties with all my so called bar and pool hall friends. My girlfriend and I have committed ourselves to become clean and sober by following in the steps of Jesus Christ. This weekend I quit drinking, smoking and some other things I don't want to mention and went through significant withdrawals. But today I rise as a new creation. It doesn't mean I am going straight out to buy my ready made Christian outfit with my yellow izod sweater and kaki pants. Hair all trimmed just right. And my perfect family following behind. That works for a lot of people.

That's just not me. God has accepted me for who I am. I am a long haired hippie surfer with pieircings and tats and enjoy extreme sports and that adrenaline rush. I still got a couple of bones to break. But this time if I do I won't be taking any opiates. So I guess I better be careful in my old age. Recovery is a life changing experience...you need to change your lifestyle. If you go back to the same hangouts and pseudo friends you will end up right where you left off. My girlfriend has been strong, but I have had a tendency to stumble her lately, something I am ashamed of for sure. So I will put my trust in God and let Him lead me into green pastures. Like I said, I probably won't ever be what one thinks a "christian" ought to be, but so be it. We found a hippie church were we fit in and no one judges us.

Just remember puting down the pipe, needle, pill, powder, or whatever is just the beginning. If I relapse I will die. I know this for sure. So I fight and fight against my flesh because I want to see my daughter grow into a beautiful women and I want to eventually marry my girlfriend and have another child. I want to become completely fit again...and hit those 15 footers in Hermosa, Costa Rica. Still need to finish my Doctorates degree. Many places to still see and intereting people to meet. Life is beautiful when you see without the haze and fog of drug addiction. I want to climb Mt. Kilomenjaro. I have seen most of world, but I want to see it again sober. Most of the time I was on one drug or another. Why is it so hard for an addict to quit using everything? All I know is the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing. God will give me the strength to make through the darkest valleys. People will always let you down, but God will always lift you up. God is love. Love is patient and kind. If someone tries to sell you God in a package of fear and hate, then it is a couterfeit. Jesus Christ died for all of us. And only by grace through faith are you saved. There is not one thing you can do on your own to save yourself. It is a gift from God. All you have to do is accept it. Even in my darkest hours God was my light. He never left me nor forsook me. I wish I could say that of my former friends and family. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life...no man cometh to the Father but through Him. Jesus is God in the flesh. He knows our struggles and temptation. What a wonderful God He is that He would give up everything to be a servant and die on a spire of wood for you and me. Again, God is Love...Love...Love.

VJ

[Chris J.]

You know when I was in the grip of my withdrawals that lasted month after month...I thought for sure this would be the hard part. I was wrong. Staying sober is the hard part. Popping, snorting, shooting is easy and withdrawing is temporary for most people, but the struggle with addiction is a daily battle. Right when I thought I had conquered my opiate addiction something happens in my life and my mind returns back to that comfortably numb feeling provided by just one shot of Dilaudid. Just like a dog returns to its vomit...so the addict returns to his or her drug of choice. I have been off of the opiates for over 8 months now. It is hard to believe. In the co???? of my sobriety I caught myself replacing my addiction with other acceptable drugs like alcohol and cigarettes. I found myself in bars and the old pool halls I frequented when I was in my early phase of my opiate addiction. Drugs circle around me like vultures waiting to devour the rotting carcas. Dealers hide in shadows like demons.

You cannot serve God and the things of this world. You will love one and hate the other. At 41 I finally had the wisdom to see where my current path was leading me...to destruction. It would have only been a matter of time before I relapsed and started hitting the opiates. At least my honesty has saved me. On this forum I have opened my heart and spoke of my struggles and have literally been torn apart by other addicts. I am bewildered at this type of behavior.

Well, I have chosen to serve one God and that is Jesus Christ. For too long I have been luke warm and sitting on the fence. This weekend so much happened in such a manner that it could only have been ochestrated by God himself. Now I have cut ties with all my so called bar and pool hall friends. My girlfriend and I have committed ourselves to become clean and sober by following in the steps of Jesus Christ. This weekend I quit drinking, smoking and some other things I don't want to mention and went through significant withdrawals. But today I rise as a new creation. It doesn't mean I am going straight out to buy my ready made Christian outfit with my yellow izod sweater and kaki pants. Hair all trimmed just right. And my perfect family following behind. That works for a lot of people.

That's just not me. God has accepted me for who I am. I am a long haired hippie surfer with pieircings and tats and enjoy extreme sports and that adrenaline rush. I still got a couple of bones to break. But this time if I do I won't be taking any opiates. So I guess I better be careful in my old age. Recovery is a life changing experience...you need to change your lifestyle. If you go back to the same hangouts and pseudo friends you will end up right where you left off. My girlfriend has been strong, but I have had a tendency to stumble her lately, something I am ashamed of for sure. So I will put my trust in God and let Him lead me into green pastures. Like I said, I probably won't ever be what one thinks a "christian" ought to be, but so be it. We found a hippie church were we fit in and no one judges us.

Just remember puting down the pipe, needle, pill, powder, or whatever is just the beginning. If I relapse I will die. I know this for sure. So I fight and fight against my flesh because I want to see my daughter grow into a beautiful women and I want to eventually marry my girlfriend and have another child. I want to become completely fit again...and hit those 15 footers in Hermosa, Costa Rica. Still need to finish my Doctorates degree. Many places to still see and intereting people to meet. Life is beautiful when you see without the haze and fog of drug addiction. I want to climb Mt. Kilomenjaro. I have seen most of world, but I want to see it again sober. Most of the time I was on one drug or another. Why is it so hard for an addict to quit using everything? All I know is the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing. God will give me the strength to make through the darkest valleys. People will always let you down, but God will always lift you up. God is love. Love is patient and kind. If someone tries to sell you God in a package of fear and hate, then it is a couterfeit. Jesus Christ died for all of us. And only by grace through faith are you saved. There is not one thing you can do on your own to save yourself. It is a gift from God. All you have to do is accept it. Even in my darkest hours God was my light. He never left me nor forsook me. I wish I could say that of my former friends and family. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life...no man cometh to the Father but through Him. Jesus is God in the flesh. He knows our struggles and temptation. What a wonderful God He is that He would give up everything to be a servant and die on a spire of wood for you and me. Again, God is Love...Love...Love.

VJ

I gotta disagree, I have come to find religion to be complete b.s., god makes faulty humans full of defects, he then punishes them for his defective work? I am happy it does something for you, but its just you, give yourself more credit, your doing this, this god guy is doing nothing, you pretending there is magic at work helping you makes you feel strong, great! Still just you and your imagination, give yourself a pat on the back, its all you.

[Robert_325]

I gotta disagree, I have come to find religion to be complete b.s., god makes faulty humans full of defects, he then punishes them for his defective work? I am happy it does something for you, but its just you, give yourself more credit, your doing this, this god guy is doing nothing, you pretending there is magic at work helping you makes you feel strong, great! Still just you and your imagination, give yourself a pat on the back, its all you.

Chris,

I am sorry you have such an attitude towards life. If God doesn't exist, why not leave everyone in a ditch face down and just take everything you can? I wore a double shoulder holster for years. I know how you feel. I was like that once. But I grew up at about age 50. Today I am clean and have no desire for any of my defective behavior and it is because of my relationship with Christ. It's not just VJ, it's lots of us.

This is not a religious forum, but it bothers me to see others bash Christ for no reason. Life isn't perfect because one believes, but if you really believe life gets so much better. God is a big boy, and He doesn't need me to protect Him. I just have to share my feelings when I see Him blasted like you did for no reason. I still wish you the best. No hard feelings intended.

VJ ... I am happy for you. I found that it isn't the drug addiction that makes you go back to snorting, popping, shooting, smoking or whatever. Addiction is just a result of all the defective character traits we have and our lack of spritual condition. I am a total scumbag when I don't do what is necessary to maintain my spritual condition. At 50 I finally started trying to clean up my inner self, and the rest of it followed. It took a while, but today I don't do drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, I don't even find it necessary to drink coffee. I don't wear khakis and IZOD sweaters either. I still like to have fun. The old hippie is still in me, he is just under control and he pays attention to the important things in life. The old gangster is gone however. I don't find it necessary to wave firearms around anymore. I will be going to the San Blas Islands off the coast of Panama in July to carry The Word to the Kuni Indians for 10 days. I get high doing things like that today. I wish you luck in the future staying clean. And for what it's worth, I am already dead the second I use again. It just can't happen for me either. I am full. No room for anymore BS in my life. I dare say that I should be dead already so many times. I can't push the envelope anymore and expect to survive.

[BECCAGRL27]

You know when I was in the grip of my withdrawals that lasted month after month...I thought for sure this would be the hard part. I was wrong. Staying sober is the hard part. Popping, snorting, shooting is easy and withdrawing is temporary for most people, but the struggle with addiction is a daily battle. Right when I thought I had conquered my opiate addiction something happens in my life and my mind returns back to that comfortably numb feeling provided by just one shot of Dilaudid. Just like a dog returns to its vomit...so the addict returns to his or her drug of choice. I have been off of the opiates for over 8 months now. It is hard to believe. In the co???? of my sobriety I caught myself replacing my addiction with other acceptable drugs like alcohol and cigarettes. I found myself in bars and the old pool halls I frequented when I was in my early phase of my opiate addiction. Drugs circle around me like vultures waiting to devour the rotting carcas. Dealers hide in shadows like demons.

You cannot serve God and the things of this world. You will love one and hate the other. At 41 I finally had the wisdom to see where my current path was leading me...to destruction. It would have only been a matter of time before I relapsed and started hitting the opiates. At least my honesty has saved me. On this forum I have opened my heart and spoke of my struggles and have literally been torn apart by other addicts. I am bewildered at this type of behavior.

Well, I have chosen to serve one God and that is Jesus Christ. For too long I have been luke warm and sitting on the fence. This weekend so much happened in such a manner that it could only have been ochestrated by God himself. Now I have cut ties with all my so called bar and pool hall friends. My girlfriend and I have committed ourselves to become clean and sober by following in the steps of Jesus Christ. This weekend I quit drinking, smoking and some other things I don't want to mention and went through significant withdrawals. But today I rise as a new creation. It doesn't mean I am going straight out to buy my ready made Christian outfit with my yellow izod sweater and kaki pants. Hair all trimmed just right. And my perfect family following behind. That works for a lot of people.

That's just not me. God has accepted me for who I am. I am a long haired hippie surfer with pieircings and tats and enjoy extreme sports and that adrenaline rush. I still got a couple of bones to break. But this time if I do I won't be taking any opiates. So I guess I better be careful in my old age. Recovery is a life changing experience...you need to change your lifestyle. If you go back to the same hangouts and pseudo friends you will end up right where you left off. My girlfriend has been strong, but I have had a tendency to stumble her lately, something I am ashamed of for sure. So I will put my trust in God and let Him lead me into green pastures. Like I said, I probably won't ever be what one thinks a "christian" ought to be, but so be it. We found a hippie church were we fit in and no one judges us.

Just remember puting down the pipe, needle, pill, powder, or whatever is just the beginning. If I relapse I will die. I know this for sure. So I fight and fight against my flesh because I want to see my daughter grow into a beautiful women and I want to eventually marry my girlfriend and have another child. I want to become completely fit again...and hit those 15 footers in Hermosa, Costa Rica. Still need to finish my Doctorates degree. Many places to still see and intereting people to meet. Life is beautiful when you see without the haze and fog of drug addiction. I want to climb Mt. Kilomenjaro. I have seen most of world, but I want to see it again sober. Most of the time I was on one drug or another. Why is it so hard for an addict to quit using everything? All I know is the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing. God will give me the strength to make through the darkest valleys. People will always let you down, but God will always lift you up. God is love. Love is patient and kind. If someone tries to sell you God in a package of fear and hate, then it is a couterfeit. Jesus Christ died for all of us. And only by grace through faith are you saved. There is not one thing you can do on your own to save yourself. It is a gift from God. All you have to do is accept it. Even in my darkest hours God was my light. He never left me nor forsook me. I wish I could say that of my former friends and family. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life...no man cometh to the Father but through Him. Jesus is God in the flesh. He knows our struggles and temptation. What a wonderful God He is that He would give up everything to be a servant and die on a spire of wood for you and me. Again, God is Love...Love...Love.

VJ

OMG VJ, you have no idea what your letter has done to me, this may sound crazy to people who are not GOD FEARING people, but, I don't think, but know and believe that this specific letter was meant for me. Let me explain, I am a firm believer in God and have been all my life, however, just these past months I actually started attending church regularly and started reading my bible and will continue to until I hit the last verse in revalations. Today I went and started on Suboxone, I have been battling an opiate addiction for the last three years, I have been smoking since I was 13( I am now pushing 28) and smoking "green" (if u know what i mean) for the last 2 years. I found that the more wisdow I gain from not just the Bible, but christian t.v., church, and other reading material, that the more God is speaking to me and answering my cries for help.When I read your letter, it literaly brough me to tears. I consider myself a baby christian, and hoping that God wanted me to go on this suboxone treatmeant so I can get clean and live a new life. I figured I would start there, then cut out the "green smoke" and then the cigarettes. My ? to u is, did u get clean off of opiates with help, or strickly by faith, same ? with the cigarettes, did u quite them all together at once? And to the ones I offend by speaking about God, because of different races and religions in our country, TOO BAD, and get over it.
Thank You VJ, and God Bless

[vduda]

Wow,


Robert you are a true zealot for the Lord. I respect your wisdom and what you have gone through. It seems we meet all the time on this forum and we share a common spirit (the Holy Spirit). It is so cool that your bringing the Gospel to the world. If I make it to 50 I hope I will be doing the same thing and doing it sober. I have faith that I will not fall again. Like you pointed out if we use again it means death. And I mean death to this body and this world. My fervor for God is being rekindled and I feel Him working in my life. In the last 2 months I have had many trials and tribulations, but I made it through with the power of Jesus Christ. But this weekend my eyes were spiritually opened. The anger has gone from me. Nothing to prove to no one...surrendering to His will. What a beautiful thing it is to serve such an awesome, loving God. Pray for me brother and I will pray for you. We are the same body in Christ. Held together by a bond beyond this world. I feel your spirit and praise God that He has used you for the purpose of the Gospel. Let it ring from the roof tops...from the highest mountains and the lowest valleys. I will be there with you in spirit.

Becca,

You give me inspiration. God leads us to do certain things many times not knowing why we do them. I felt I had to post this thread...I didn't know why, but know it has been brought to light. Your coming on 28 and you are taking the right steps to sobriety. I was saved when I was 17 and Jesus Christ delivered me from everything all at once. All drugs, alcohol, the green, LSD, opiates, downers, everything. I tried to kill myself at 16 because I could not take the harshness of this world. Laying there on my bed with both wrist spilling my lifeblood on white sheets and about 60 714's (Qualudes) I was on my way out, but again God saved me by sending someone to find me in that state and get me help. From 17 to about 22 I lived my life for Jesus Christ and I can say that it was the best times in my life. My spirit was still and the world passed by so slowly...silently. The pain had resided like a wave washing over the sands. But the world slowly brought me into its grib. Lucifer, Lord of the Flies, god of this world is sublime and fools even the faithful. It started with drinking, smoking some herb, then cocaine, LSD, Mescaline, Barbituates, and so on until I found that one thing I could not turn from opiates. At 30 I began my decade of opiate abuse and it left me dead, but God brought me back. Three years ago I tried to detox with buprenorphine for a week and was clean for about two months before I relapsed. From there on I hit the opiates double hard. A broken marriage of 20 years, then a failed engagement, many other futile relationships, losing custody of my daughter, chronic kidney stones (caused by the meds), and finally a near fatal car accident where I broke my neck, dislocted my shoulder, concussion, internal bleeding after hitting a cement-steel wall at 90 mph. Many people would say, "you see there is no God...curse Him and be over it". Not me, I grabbed onto Him with both hand, but I found he was the one holding me. After a habit of 3,500 mg of Fentanyl, Morphine, Methadone, Demerol, Oxycodone, Hydrocodone, and Propoxyphene a day, not to mention the 30 to 40 cc's of Dilaudid and Hydromorphine I booted in my veins everyday along with a 40 to 50 mg chaser of Xanax (4 times the fatal dose) I was killing myself slowly. This I did day in day out. My track marks are a fading reminder of my demise at that time. Now the tracks are almost healed and so is my heart. In the last year of my destructive and fatal path I had become bed ridden from the drugs and my broken neck and was a bloated 230 lbs (usually I am about 187lbs), jaudice from a failing liver, kidneys shuting down and all my blood screens completely screwed: cholesterol 429, triglycerides 1,200, Liver enzymes over 300 (normal is 0-56) and my endocrine system shut down and I lost all my hair on my body. The doctors gave me two weeks to live. The neck surgery I had a couple of months before was a complete success. Again, a miracle. Literally, my C-5 vertebrae and disc had exploded from the impact. From April to the end of July I sat in my bed immobile. No feelings in my hands. Looking at a guitar I could not play. This is death for a musician. The doctors removed the bone and disc fragments from my spinal cord, replaced the vertebrae with a cadaver vertebrae and fused three vertebrae with titanium plates. Not the first time I have had titanium in my body. They hoped for the best, but what the experts got was a miracle. I made a complet recovery from the surgery, but I was still dying from my addiction. Now were caught up...so there I was dying with two weeks to live and God got me out of that bed and I admitted myself to the Detox center once more. This time the buprenorphine shots did nothing and I went through full withdrawals for months and months. I'd like to think of it as divine suffering. Coming off the opiates and benzos cold turkey. Seizure after seizure plagued me daily. Cramping, diarrhea, insomnia...it went on and on. I lost 65 lbs in the first month. Completely bed ridden God came to me and whispered you are free...free. So slowly, I began to regain some strength, but I never quite recovered. At 4 and a half months I had neurological test done and they found that I had damaged my CNS beyond repair. That is what 20 yrs of Benzo use will do to you. So they put me on a medicinal dose of a long acting benzo. In days I was on my feet with no seizures and almost all other symptoms were gone. I consider this a miracle. God again placed the right people in my life to help me. Now I take very little of the meds. Don't crave them at all. If I could I would throw them in the trash and one day I have faith God will deliver me from this self made affliction. But it reminds me of Paul when he asked God to heal him three times, but God did not. God's ways are not our ways. He knows what He is doing. So I carry on...my cross if you will. I also had quit cigarettes when I went into detox. No big deal.

To the present. A couple of months ago I had diagnostics and blood screens done and everything came back perfect. At that time I had been off the opiates for 6 months and I felt great. The doctors were dumbfounded. They even said it was a miracle. Cholesterol 200, Triglycerides 100, Liver enzymes 11, weight 187lbs, waist from 41 to 31, BP 160/105 to 120/70 and my testosterone levels were off the chart. I was in the condition of a marathon runner.

But how quickly we forget as humans the struggles we face. So I started hanging out with the same old crowd at the bars and pool halls. At first, I wouldn't drink or even smoke one cigarette. In the end I was going out every night drinking, smoking a pack a day, and doing some to other stupid things. However, I justified it by saying I'm not doing any opiates so I'm Ok. Then I started going out with an old friend who became my girlfriend. I had 5 fights in a matter of a month and a half. I put one guy in ICU for weeks wit a fractured skull and a broken arm. At least I can say I never started one of these fights...but that is no excuse.

This weekend it finally hit me after being off the opiates for 8 months. My girlfriend and I had been attending what I would call a hippie church, very cool and laid back. Not institutional. She started to change her life...quit drinking and partying all together, but I still had that bar scene pulling me. This weekend I stumbled my girl and God opened my eyes. I threw away the alcohol, cigarettes and other unmentionables and went through what was comparatively mild withdrawals. My eyes are wide open...once again God had delivered me from myself.

So to those of you out there who thinks that God is a fairy tale or somekind of magic wheel in the sky you have not experienced his loving mercy. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God knew it was a difficult thing to grasp Him so He took on the flesh and dwelt among as the person of Jesus Christ. 100% God and 100% Man. He overcame every temptation. He was blameless. Yet He died for you and I so we could commune with Him again. He became the sacrifice for our sin, even becoming sin. By Grace through faith we are saved... The good news is that He has risen and brought salvation to the world. My God is not buried in dirt, but sits at the right had of the Father. For there are three in heaven the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and these three are One. As Jesus said, "I and the Father are one". He told Philip when demanded to see the Father, Jesus referred to himself and said, "You now have seen the Father and know the Father".

In all my folly I never cursed or denied my Lord. Never will I turn my back on him. I will praise His name to the grave. He delivered me from my addictions. God is Love. Nothing is impossible with God. Just the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. I have moved worlds in my life. Today I rise as a child of God. Greater is He (God) who is in me than he who is in the world. So yes Becca the Holy Spirit has delivered me from my destructive behavior. That is not to say I will not struggle or screw up, but today I am whole. God Bless. And for Robert or Becca if you ever want to speak with me directly my email is vduda@msn.com

God Bless,

VJ

[vduda]

Chris,

I wasn't ready for such a diverse response. First, I would like to say that I am not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs. Only the Holy Spirit can touch a man's heart and give him or her faith to believe. Chris, I can understand why you feel the way you do. Obviously, we have all gone through many trials and tribulations in our lives. Usually, one of two things happen in this situation. You become hard like the world and turn from God or you become humble and turn to Him. I take no comfort in taking credit for my recovery...I praise God. For I am weak, fragile, and vulnerable. These words are coming from a man who has taken Martial Arts his whole life and held the Eastern Region Championship 3 straight years in PK when I was younger. Played professional soccer like a race car. I have overcome some of the most tragic injuries, died three times from overdoses, shot 4 times and yet here I am. It is God who has sustained me. I can do nothing of myself unless God has ordained it. Soften your heart Chris and perhaps you will hear the quite whisper that is God. I have no anger for you...only love.
May God Bless you and your struggle against the enemy of addiction. But as for me God gives me my strength to make it through another day sober in mind and spirit.

[mikeyh]

Hey rob,by reading your post,looks like you been through the ringer,your really doing good, ive only been hooked on pain meds thank god thats the only thing,,,your a good man you are always trying to help someone ,the lord has picked you for the job,and keep doing the good work...when i read your post that you write to anyone,for some reason it sinks in i dont understand that,its like i look foward to seeing your post to other people...your one big reason im trying to quit so hard,seems like your there for everyone,and know just what to say to make things so much better...thnx for all you do,,,mike

[erinkj]

Hola brother! it has been awhile but, I try to keep up with your posts. This is a busy time for me..Finals week...oh, JOY! . I just wanted to give you a quick shout to say I'm proud of you. Addiction is easy but, beating addiction is beyond tough and is a life long challenge. (as you well know) NO path is smoothe or straight, there will be bumps, curves and stumbles along the way. When you have fallen, you have picked yourself up. When you have been lost, you have found your way. Is this divine intervention? or the spirit of a true survivor? I think BOTH! KUDOS to you. Peace...Erin

[vduda]

Thanks Erin,

It is always good to hear from you. Hope all is well with the family. Can you believe it is coming up on 9 months since I have been off the opiates. It is hard to believe. You helped me so much in the beginning. There has been some bumps in the road, but God is my strength and has given me that gift of the "spirit of a survivor". My body chemistry has balanced out. I feel pretty good. No more anger...now there is a peace within after going through some crazy situations in the last few months. Life is Beautiful. Don't be a stranger. You have my email vduda@msn.com. God Bless.

VJ

[Chris J.]

Chris,

I wasn't ready for such a diverse response. First, I would like to say that I am not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs. Only the Holy Spirit can touch a man's heart and give him or her faith to believe. Chris, I can understand why you feel the way you do. Obviously, we have all gone through many trials and tribulations in our lives. Usually, one of two things happen in this situation. You become hard like the world and turn from God or you become humble and turn to Him. I take no comfort in taking credit for my recovery...I praise God. For I am weak, fragile, and vulnerable. These words are coming from a man who has taken Martial Arts his whole life and held the Eastern Region Championship 3 straight years in PK when I was younger. Played professional soccer like a race car. I have overcome some of the most tragic injuries, died three times from overdoses, shot 4 times and yet here I am. It is God who has sustained me. I can do nothing of myself unless God has ordained it. Soften your heart Chris and perhaps you will hear the quite whisper that is God. I have no anger for you...only love.
May God Bless you and your struggle against the enemy of addiction. But as for me God gives me my strength to make it through another day sober in mind and spirit.

Hey bro just thuoght I should explain, I was in no way attemting to ******************** on your beliefs, I just was trying to give you a boost, that you are playing a huge role in your recovery, it aint just "magic". I can also accept that maybe there is something thats giving you the strength you needed to make it through, I personally do not feel any supernatural processes are at work helping me I am just grinding it out, and at times I find myself wishing I could believe in it, I was raised in a christian home with born again parents and was a believer till about age 12. at about that age I began to notice the hypocracy of my parents and of the members of the church, I also found the stories and accounts of history to be just impossible to believe and that science was giving me answers to these questions that made sense to me and appear to be a more accurate account of how things have come to be as they are and found myself doubting the entire bible and its claims, I have yet to find any christain that could expain to me how the fossil and geological records are wrong and the bible is correct, maybe you will be the one that can do that. I do repect your postion and just wanted you to take some credit for your recovery and I enjoy reading your posts the more of them I read the more respect I have for you, I in no way was trying to offend you if thats how it sounded. If anyone can provide some concrete evidence of magical intervention I am all ears, I would love to have it proven to me I want to go to heaven too..if its really there. My mum says to me "when you die chris and your standing before the lord what are you going to say for yourself not believing all these years?", I said "I'll tell him the damn truth, all the information I was given led me to believe it isnt true, I was given bad information its not my fault, you let them decieve me"..lol..even she had aslight chuckle at my answer although she didnt like it, her last words were " always a smartass answer, some things we can count on from you" ...LOL ....take care guys...Chris

[hopefulgirl]

Thank you to all of you for being here for me... I have been on these boards since Monday, I am on my 3rd day of vicodin withdrawals, & I'm actually up cleaning the house a little....Will 2morrow be horrible??? or am i on my way to feeling better??? was on them daily for about 3 months...any info helps thanks

[mommy3]

hey girl, see I told ya... Your instincts have kicked in... If you are up cleaning up the house, then yes, it will be better tomorrow. Maybe not mentally but physically you are getting back into the groove of things. Im proud of you. You made it this far!!

[hopefulgirl]

Thank you mommy3, I am also on Cymbalta, just went back down to 30mg, how long after I am off the vicodin should i start to try & get off of the Cymbalta? I do not want to be on any thing, seems like the depression meds have basically made me more depressed.....

[mommy3]

Well to be completely honest, I was on Wellbutrin XL and stopped it abruptly at the same time i stopped the Vicodin, I blame my suicidal thoughts on the stopping of the anti-depressant. Stopping any kind of opiate will cause you to seem depressed, unless you were depressed before you even took opiates. Its your body trying to find its "sense of normality". Then you also have "rogue pain" which is pain your mind says is there but is really not there. That is the addict in us speaking. Never stop your anti depressant until you talk with your doctor. Be completely honest and tell them what you are going through. They will tell you what you should do about the cymbalta. Trust me, dont stop taking it please. God Bless.

[mommy3]

Hey bro just thuoght I should explain, I was in no way attemting to ******************** on your beliefs, I just was trying to give you a boost, that you are playing a huge role in your recovery, it aint just "magic". I can also accept that maybe there is something thats giving you the strength you needed to make it through, I personally do not feel any supernatural processes are at work helping me I am just grinding it out, and at times I find myself wishing I could believe in it, I was raised in a christian home with born again parents and was a believer till about age 12. at about that age I began to notice the hypocracy of my parents and of the members of the church, I also found the stories and accounts of history to be just impossible to believe and that science was giving me answers to these questions that made sense to me and appear to be a more accurate account of how things have come to be as they are and found myself doubting the entire bible and its claims, I have yet to find any christain that could expain to me how the fossil and geological records are wrong and the bible is correct, maybe you will be the one that can do that. I do repect your postion and just wanted you to take some credit for your recovery and I enjoy reading your posts the more of them I read the more respect I have for you, I in no way was trying to offend you if thats how it sounded. If anyone can provide some concrete evidence of magical intervention I am all ears, I would love to have it proven to me I want to go to heaven too..if its really there. My mum says to me "when you die chris and your standing before the lord what are you going to say for yourself not believing all these years?", I said "I'll tell him the damn truth, all the information I was given led me to believe it isnt true, I was given bad information its not my fault, you let them decieve me"..lol..even she had aslight chuckle at my answer although she didnt like it, her last words were " always a smartass answer, some things we can count on from you" ...LOL ....take care guys...Chris

One thing here...just one... Not to long ago on TV scientist made a discovery. They were on top of one the highest mountains in the world, looking for bugs that had been frozen for ages to study them... Do you know what they accidentally stumbled upon??? CLAMS!! FREAKIN CLAMS!! from the ocean!! On top of one of the highest mountains in the world, beneath hard packed ice they had been frozen in time from ages ago. Now tell me how on earth did all those clams from the ocean get up on top of this huge mountain that you couldnt even see the top of because it was beyond the clouds? MY ANSWER: The Great Flood..... Till this day they cannot explain why, who, what , when, and how those ocean clams got to the very top of that mountain.. weird that they found those, or is it another testimony to Jesus Christ and the miracles he did? Im not judging you but I am trying to help you better understand. God Bless.

[Chris J.]

One thing here...just one... Not to long ago on TV scientist made a discovery. They were on top of one the highest mountains in the world, looking for bugs that had been frozen for ages to study them... Do you know what they accidentally stumbled upon??? CLAMS!! FREAKIN CLAMS!! from the ocean!! On top of one of the highest mountains in the world, beneath hard packed ice they had been frozen in time from ages ago. Now tell me how on earth did all those clams from the ocean get up on top of this huge mountain that you couldnt even see the top of because it was beyond the clouds? MY ANSWER: The Great Flood..... Till this day they cannot explain why, who, what , when, and how those ocean clams got to the very top of that mountain.. weird that they found those, or is it another testimony to Jesus Christ and the miracles he did? Im not judging you but I am trying to help you better understand. God Bless.

Wrong. do you know how mountains are created? I do, they are pushed up, all mountaintops were at some point at sea level so not strange at all to find fossils from an ancient beach on them, as thats what they were long ago that isnt proof of a global flood at all its proof of vulcanism and plate tectonics which are geological natural processes extensively understood by science, you can find that on any mountaintop near the coast.
There is actually no evidence of a global flood in the geological record, and it isnt wrong it has never happened, many local floods, they continue to this day but never global, think about it how much water would need to be added to the earths oceans to raise the sea level even a foot? It is an incredible amount so now think of the rain that would need to fall to cover mount everest, 40 days and nights aint gonna do it, 40 billion maybe and where is all that water, this is a closed system we have it recirculates via evaporation and precipitation if it covered the mountains it should still be here, but it isnt we dont have enough water to cover all the land pushed up as it is now and never have.
Now lets think about the logistics of having every creature on earth aboard one wooden boat, any idea the hundreds of thousands of gallons of fresh water they would need each day with no pumps or pipes to move it where it was needed aboard or the size of the space it would require to store? Come on, its a preposterous idea at the least and couldnt be done today with all our technology and we havnt gotten to the amount of dung that would need to be shoveled overboard on a daily basis to avoid the disease that would overtake all the biology living in it, noah didnt have a crew big enough for that I am commercial fisherman I know all too well the work involved in life at sea, its no picnic.
Then there is the fact that "god" having these omnipotent qualities would even need to induce a flood to fix the creation mistakes he made, a mere thought from him and it all goes away, he shouldnt need to resort to geological proceeses to fix up his creation cause its gone to ******************** on him, more preposterous grandious thinking on our behalf. and for him to murder most of the humans alive, why? he is supposedly all love how can an entity that is pure love want vengeance? Omnipotent all loving yet needs constant praise and acknowlegment of his superiority and his wrath if you dont deliver the praise and worship the way he wants it? These qualities seem to be at such opposites of each other I find it hard to believe in a being that has them all, doesnt seem possible for them to coexist in one being, they cant.
If god is all love then he can never want vengeance as that is not a loving quality, he can never punish as that is not love either that is more vengeance. He can not be all the things claimed in the bible, they contradict each other in fundamental ways, I would love for a chritian to actually address these facts one by one so I can understand how they rationalize or understand these problems so I may understand them too because as of now to me these are huge holes in the bibles story, and makes me wonder if they are incorrect what else in it is also false. Now you see how I got to where I am at, I'd love to believe it who wouldnt want to go to "heaven" ? This post is intended as conversation not an attack or to provolk a fight it is to stimulate conversation so I may understand in the way that others that have overcome these issues do, my intention is not to argue but to understand please take it that way, I have had little sucess with discussing this with my family as they take it as hostile argument against them personally. Chris

[mommy3]

You know in another post I had made I stated that a few years back i thought almost as you thought about the bible, not to that extent but I was doubtful. I read the bible, and read and read and still I could not even make sense of the thing. Up until recently, at a road block in my life I asked for God's help and he gave it to me. I got my bible out of the closet, dusted it off and started reading it. And ya know what, instead of me just reading it like before, it was like God was whispering every little word in my ear. And it all came to me. If your heart isnt willing, then no, you will never understand God's work. I personally think that each of his words is for a certain "situation".

[Robert_325]

It is a fact that scientists have determined a great flood took place at about the time in history that coincides with Old Testament scriptures. The scientific community does not say that it rained, but they claim that earth was struck by a huge asteroid, fragment of destroyed planet, or something similar causing a huge tsunami of sorts. A body large enough striking earth could cause a 500' storm surge or more that would wreak havoc over several continents. That is a fact. It would appear as a storm to the rather backwards people of the period in time. We don't have ANY proof of what took place around the world as there was no written history in all locations at that early time in history.

The huge wooden structure that is believed to be sitting near the top of a mountain in Turkey is not a fossile risen by a mountain that was lifted up from the ocean floor. Funny it appears to be a boat. Wonder how it got there??? Of course it has not been excavated yet to substantiate any suspected theories. We can not say what it is or how it got there.

No one can give specific positive proof that Biblical stories all have scientific backing. That is impossible. Anyone who wants to focus on calling events from the Bible fiction, figments of imagination, or whatever can do that and it is time wasted to try and convince them otherwise. Events brought on by the will of The Creator would obviously be beyond human understanding. People who have faith and choose to believe the Biblical explanations will continue to believe and those who would attempt to tear down those beliefs will continue to try and destroy.

There is really no reason to even discuss all of this on this forum. No ones opinion will be changed anyway.

[Chris J.]

It is a fact that scientists have determined a great flood took place at about the time in history that coincides with Old Testament scriptures. The scientific community does not say that it rained, but they claim that earth was struck by a huge asteroid, fragment of destroyed planet, or something similar causing a huge tsunami of sorts. A body large enough striking earth could cause a 500' storm surge or more that would wreak havoc over several continents. That is a fact. It would appear as a storm to the rather backwards people of the period in time. We don't have ANY proof of what took place around the world as there was no written history in all locations at that early time in earth's history.

The huge wooden structure that is believed to be sitting near the top of Mt Sanai is not a fossile risen by a mountain that was lifted up from the ocean floor. Funny it appears to be a boat. Wonder how it got there??? Of course it has not been excavated yet to substantiate any suspected theories. We can not say what it is or how it got there.

No one can give specific positive proof that Biblical stories all have scientific backing. That is impossible. Anyone who wants to focus on calling events from the Bible fiction, figments of imagination, or whatever can do that and it is time wasted to try and convince them otherwise. Events brought on by the will of The Creator would obviously be beyond human understanding. People who have faith and choose to believe the Biblical explanations will continue to believe and those who would attempt to tear down those beliefs will continue to try and destroy.

There is really no reason to even discuss all of this on this forum. No ones opinion will be changed anyway.

No your dead wrong, there are no credible scientists claiming a great global flood, and the bible is quite specific of rainfal causing it. Remember our geological record, core samples? No global flood and there isnt one science journal claiming otherwise, and nothing even remotely close to time of the supposed flood, bible claims a very young earth while we have evidence of its existence with lifeforms billions of years ago. To say anyone asking these questions is wanting to debunk and dont waste time with them they will never believe, what your really saying is anyone who has all the facts wont be convinced otherwise well good, we are supposed to follow logic and reason arnt we? If the bible cannot be put to scienticfic scrutiny then it has nothing to back it up, to say anyone who does it will fail because they want it to is a total cop out and no argument at all, I will rest my case if thats the best answer there is and reaffirm my thoughts that the believers never look closely to see if what they are buying into is really true, if I am to commit my life to something it had better be valid not made up. It should be able to stand up to the tests of authenticity and if you read it it tells us to test it and prove it for ourselves, but you knew that already so I wont quote verse. I know the bible inside out, backwards and forwards test me anytime. I stuck to just the flood subject and have shown many inconsistancies in the story, and outright impossibillities somehow you avoid those and talk of giant ice rocks from the sky to allow for the extra water and call the flood a wave, the ark survived a 500 ft. tusami? You need to rewrite the bible yourself to make the story credible to yourself, that isnt evidence thats self deception and isnt at all convincing. If what you claim is truth can you provide links to the impact crater made by this giant snowball as i cannot find it anywhere in the science journals i subscribe to nor any refference to an impact in biblical times, the yucatan wasnt made of ice so ill save ya from that one. Remember I asked for evidence not theory or hypothesis, science claims a differnt version of events and is happy to give the evidence of how it reached those conclusions, we can have confidence in its results as we can see where the conclusions came from, they are not baseless or require belief first, it just makes alot more sense than what your saying. I am not saying there is no creator, I actually can blow alot of holes into evolution too, it fails miserably when scrutinised closely, not one fossil to show macro just micro, not only that evolution can never give you an eyeball as its supposedly random mutaion being selected if usefull, the cells making up an eyeball are useless till you have the entire optic nerve, lens, retina and nero peptides to decipher the nerve impulse so it could never get that far, the few original cells would be rejected as not usefull so it explains nothing, I am not "antigod", I am searching for the truth and I havnt found it yet, just two stories that both lack evidence to support their claims although there is enough evidence to disprove the bibles story, there is enough to disprove evolution too. I dont know what the truth is yet, just that what i have heard sofar isnt satisfactory from either camps but science by its very nature will self correct itself and change with newer evidence..it creeps towards the truth, something I dont see religion doing, it runs from it and that causes me doubt.

[Robert_325]

You are making statements about science and the Bible that are incorrect and claiming facts. You are not all knowing just discounting anything that is said. You don't know all the info that is available as well as you say. There are many scientists who discuss what I have said in text. There is plenty of info available on these subjects. You are not quoting facts, you are ranting ... but I still wish you the best. Oh yes ... I never talked about "giant snowballs" or the Yucatan being an icecube as you attempt to mock. I will not respond further. LOL This is a wellness forum.

[mommy3]

Im with Robert on this totally...

Hopeful, how are you doing, havent heard from you in a few hours so thought I would check in on you..Please post and let me know how you are if you can.

[hopefulgirl]

I'm ok, on 73rd hour now, still feeling nauseaus, cant really eat anything, gonna try & get some sleep , be back in the morning, thanks for caring, it really means alot......

[hopefulgirl]

i have a question, if i were to take one pill would that start my withdrawals all over from day one or would it ease them a bit?? I dont know what to do, having a hard time right now, please helpppppp

[Robert_325]

i have a question, if i were to take one pill would that start my withdrawals all over from day one or would it ease them a bit?? I dont know what to do, having a hard time right now, please helpppppp

You need to get the pain meds out of your house if they are still there. I know this is tough, but it's the small price we pay to get clean. It's HELL is a better description. Play the tape all the way through. I know for me the second I take an RX pain med I am through. If it gets to where you think you are going to die, then contact a dr or a connection if you must and get a couple Benzos ... like a valium, ativan or xanax. Only take it for the present day....don't repeat it.

Most all of us have been where you are and I am not belittling what you are going through I promise. It is a drag. But think about the reasons you decided to detox. If you're like me you have blown it a bunch of times and you know you have to do this. Hang in there. But PLEASE don't take any opiates!!! You will be sorry. You will lose the time you have clean and be starting over. I would never be able to stop with one. I had to clean out the house before I ever started or as weak as I am I would have been right into that pill bottle. Again, I would get rid of any opiates in the house NOW. Keep posting and we will be here to help you.

It also never hurts to ask God to help you. He will if you ask .... might consider giving it a try. It's worked for lots of us. Changed my life for sure from taking 25-30 30mg OC a day to being clean and living life happy. Good luck and God bless.

[hopefulgirl]

I have been praying believe me, i am just so nauseaus, cant even think of eating anything.....ughhhhhh!! when will this start to get better??

[Robert_325]

I have been praying believe me, i am just so nauseaus, cant even think of eating anything.....ughhhhhh!! when will this start to get better??

Glad you are praying. You know we don't always realize it, but you are receiving help. It could be worse than it is. God will not ignore your pleas. Just be humble and sincere. He likes that.

If you are really having stomach problems, especially running to the bathroom, then take some Immodium. You can take it as needed. It actually has an opiate in it. It will not affect your recovery, but it will help with the stomach problems. Also if you are running to the bathroom often, get some Gatorade and drink lots of it. It has loads of electrolytes that will help with the dehydration you will experience. That just wears you out in itself. Also try to put something light in your tummy. I know it doesn't taste good, but even some pudding or something easy to get down. It will help. They try to cram food down you in rehabs. There is a reason for that.

You are into the third day now. You really don't have that much longer to go before at least the very worst of it will be over ... probably a couple more days and you will begin to see some difference. This is a very critical time for you. Don't blow it. You could start feeling a little better after the 4th day. We are all a little different in how it affects us. But you are so close now. Hang in there. Keep posting and let us know how you are doing. There are people rooting for you. Keep your head up and stay focused. Good luck and God bless.

[Chris J.]

You need to get the pain meds out of your house if they are still there. I know this is tough, but it's the small price we pay to get clean. It's HELL is a better description. Play the tape all the way through. I know for me the second I take an RX pain med I am through. If it gets to where you think you are going to die, then contact a dr or a connection if you must and get a couple Benzos ... like a valium, ativan or xanax. Only take it for the present day....don't repeat it.

Most all of us have been where you are and I am not belittling what you are going through I promise. It is a drag. But think about the reasons you decided to detox. If you're like me you have blown it a bunch of times and you know you have to do this. Hang in there. But PLEASE don't take any opiates!!! You will be sorry. You will lose the time you have clean and be starting over. I would never be able to stop with one. I had to clean out the house before I ever started or as weak as I am I would have been right into that pill bottle. Again, I would get rid of any opiates in the house NOW. Keep posting and we will be here to help you.

It also never hurts to ask God to help you. He will if you ask .... might consider giving it a try. It's worked for lots of us. Changed my life for sure from taking 25-30 30mg OC a day to being clean and living life happy. Good luck and God bless.

This is exellent advice, dont take any opiate it will prolong the WD not ease it, least thats been my experience, keeping them around is a form of "keeping the door open" and is dangerous as your mind is going to play games with you and that will be its first option and its happening already, get rid of them it will reaffirm your commintment to your body which seems to have a mind of its own during this process, take something if you feel you must but nothing with any opiate, you need to trust us on this one. I say let it be absolutely horrible, pain is an incredible teacher, the easier it is to get out of this the easier it will be to get back into it is my experience, let it be ugly so your unconcious mind and body really hate the experience and will be less likely to want to repeat it, our brains need to rewire the ideas that opiates are good and rewarding, we need to train our bodies and minds that they actually cause incredible pain, that is the lesson we want, I say let it happen and let it hurt, it will hopefully be gross enough of an experience that no part of your being will want to have to ever repeat it, you can do this, if I can anyone can, I hit over 30 days clean this week and I am feeling sooo much better and you will too very shortly, chuck the opiates and continue the grind and let the pain teach what opiates are really all about for folks like me and you. Keep hanging in there we will encouage and support you all the way through it so you have lots of folks who have done the same thing you are doing rooting for you, your gonna be ok if its gets really bad make a post telling us whats happening and we will help you throught it, take care..Chris

[mommy3]

Robert is one of the many who walked me through this hour by hour, literally. When you come out of this you can actually tell yourself, you went through hell, looked at it right in the face and gave it "the finger". lol pardon my expression. You will make it, i promise you...Just keep praying and let God handle it. Before you know it, you will wake up and say WoW. God Bless.

[vduda]

Chris,

I understand you questioning the Bible and its claims, but at the same time to follow science blindly which changes daily based on the tangible is a bit naive...no disrespect. Science is not the answer to everything. I have a B.S. in Microbiology and a B.A. in Religious Studies. I have seen both sides of the coin. Science actually supports many of the Bibles claims and I think you should approach both science and spiritual things with an open mind. In science what is right today is wrong tomorrow. This is what you put your faith in...man and his perception of reality? Man is so flawed...full of hate and deception. Look around the world and all the pain and suffering. Where is your science when it comes to the starving people of this world? Your sacred science is killing this world and that is an empirical fact. A scientific fact.

You can get into plate tectonics and the creations of mountains and use scientific terms to back it up. Yes science is very useful, but it does not give you the answers to those things that can't be measured or in some way is intangible.

For one thing the answers are right in the books of the Bible. The first book of the Torah, Genesis states in the "In the beginning"...but the Hebrew word that is used signifies that it was a second beginning for the earth. That the earth was already in existence, but had been destroyed and made void and empty. These Biblical scholars who claim that the earth is only 10,000 yrs old have no understanding of geology. Perhaps, man has been in existence for 10,000 yrs but not the earth after the second creation of the earth. So if people want to believe that the earth is 4 and a half billion yrs old in my opinion it shows God's eternal majesty. In the scripture is states that 1,000 yrs is like 1 day to God. Forgive me if I don't quote exact chapters and verses, but I am going from memory and the Word of God that is written on my heart. You know Chris I believe if you use the scientific process correctly it can be very helpful. However, it seems that many scientist don't understand this process and instead try to prove their hypothesis correct whether it is or not. Your suppose to state a hypothesis and test it and verify it by having others provide the same results by duplicating the process. Nowadays it seems all backwards. Theory is theory...but most people accept as if it is truth. Truth...what a concept! Your so-called infallible science shows that we originate from one man and one women. So does this support Adam and Eve. Depends on who has the info. and how it is used. In my opinion people focus on the wrong things and miss the great miracle of life. I've written 100 page papers defending one premise or another. And you know you could support either position with plenty of pretty little facts and other well laid out concepts.

As it pertains to the flood. There is plenty of empirical evidence the whole earth was covered by water at one time. And I understand that it is difficult for you to accept the fact that life was sustained by Noah and a boat full of animals. However, logistically it is quite possible. And your right about the rain. Before the great flood, which by the way is told in every culture in the world, like the story of Gilgamesh and every American Indian religion and for that matter every religion. Why do you think that is? Well like I said you are right about the rain...before the rain started to fall water came from the earth as a vapor, which could be easily explained geologically. It did say that the heavens were opened and it rained 40 days and 40 nights. So the floodgates were opened. Why is this so hard to accept. The earth constantly goes through a process of purification. The miracle is that God saved us by having a man work for 120 yrs on a boat large enough to carry on life on this planet. However, it is so easy for the scientific community to accept Darwanian evolution which in essence states that somehow proteins organized themselves in a primordial soup that randomly organized itself into a single cell life sustaining organism...but it does not say how or even gives a hypothesis to this supposed instantaneous aberration of life. It gives no basis, but you would rather believe in this Chris, then a force so great...so eternal...so majestic. Just look into the sky at night and marvel. So many wonderful and unexplainable things.

God is beyond words...don't be a prisoner of worldly deceit. Test the fruits to see if they are sweet or bitter. By the way I did a little time in Med School before I got my Double Masters in Education. Never stop questioning, however, when the truth presence itself don't miss it because of a hard heart. The truth will set you free and if Jesus sets you free you shall be free indeed my brother. God Bless.

VJ

[Chris J.]

Chris,

I understand you questioning the Bible and its claims, but at the same time to follow science blindly which changes daily based on the tangible is a bit naive...no disrespect. Science is not the answer to everything. I have a B.S. in Microbiology and a B.A. in Religious Studies. I have seen both sides of the coin. Science actually supports many of the Bibles claims and I think you should approach both science and spiritual things with an open mind. In science what is right today is wrong tomorrow. This is what you put your faith in...man and his perception of reality? Man is so flawed...full of hate and deception. Look around the world and all the pain and suffering. Where is your science when it comes to the starving people of this world? Your sacred science is killing this world and that is an empirical fact. A scientific fact.

You can get into plate tectonics and the creations of mountains and use scientific terms to back it up. Yes science is very useful, but it does not give you the answers to those things that can't be measured or in some way is intangible.

For one thing the answers are right in the books of the Bible. The first book of the Torah, Genesis states in the "In the beginning"...but the Hebrew word that is used signifies that it was a second beginning for the earth. That the earth was already in existence, but had been destroyed and made void and empty. These Biblical scholars who claim that the earth is only 10,000 yrs old have no understanding of geology. Perhaps, man has been in existence for 10,000 yrs but not the earth after the second creation of the earth. So if people want to believe that the earth is 4 and a half billion yrs old in my opinion it shows God's eternal majesty. In the scripture is states that 1,000 yrs is like 1 day to God. Forgive me if I don't quote exact chapters and verses, but I am going from memory and the Word of God that is written on my heart. You know Chris I believe if you use the scientific process correctly it can be very helpful. However, it seems that many scientist don't understand this process and instead try to prove their hypothesis correct whether it is or not. Your suppose to state a hypothesis and test it and verify it by having others provide the same results by duplicating the process. Nowadays it seems all backwards. Theory is theory...but most people accept as if it is truth. Truth...what a concept! Your so-called infallible science shows that we originate from one man and one women. So does this support Adam and Eve. Depends on who has the info. and how it is used. In my opinion people focus on the wrong things and miss the great miracle of life. I've written 100 page papers defending one premise or another. And you know you could support either position with plenty of pretty little facts and other well laid out concepts.

As it pertains to the flood. There is plenty of empirical evidence the whole earth was covered by water at one time. And I understand that it is difficult for you to accept the fact that life was sustained by Noah and a boat full of animals. However, logistically it is quite possible. And your right about the rain. Before the great flood, which by the way is told in every culture in the world, like the story of Gilgamesh and every American Indian religion and for that matter every religion. Why do you think that is? Well like I said you are right about the rain...before the rain started to fall water came from the earth as a vapor, which could be easily explained geologically. It did say that the heavens were opened and it rained 40 days and 40 nights. So the floodgates were opened. Why is this so hard to accept. The earth constantly goes through a process of purification. The miracle is that God saved us by having a man work for 120 yrs on a boat large enough to carry on life on this planet. However, it is so easy for the scientific community to accept Darwanian evolution which in essence states that somehow proteins organized themselves in a primordial soup that randomly organized itself into a single cell life sustaining organism...but it does not say how or even gives a hypothesis to this supposed instantaneous aberration of life. It gives no basis, but you would rather believe in this Chris, then a force so great...so eternal...so majestic. Just look into the sky at night and marvel. So many wonderful and unexplainable things.

God is beyond words...don't be a prisoner of worldly deceit. Test the fruits to see if they are sweet or bitter. By the way I did a little time in Med School before I got my Double Masters in Education. Never stop questioning, however, when the truth presence itself don't miss it because of a hard heart. The truth will set you free and if Jesus sets you free you shall be free indeed my brother. God Bless.

VJ

Now that is post I can respect. Exellent dude, and while I beg to differ on more than a few points I agree you are correct on alot of it BUT dont think I am not aware that science is always aproximate and tentative. I am also aware of the fact many scientists fall in love with their theory and bend or manufacture facts to support their theory, this happens far more than we would like to think but there is still alot of good science done among the self serving science, you shouldnt accept it blindly anymore than any other scource of information, you need to check it yourself. I also did a mini debunk of evolution too at the end of my other post to show I am aware of the flaws apparent in some areas of science it doesnt have all the answers, I never said it did, I did say it is self correcting, it creeps towards truth and I truly believe that, it just gives a more believable version to me at this time, and I do believe in a grand creator, the universe reeks of design as does the incredible bio diversification we see here on earth, I agree wholehearted with you random mutation is a poor explanation of how it all got here I dont buy it either, its just I cant accept the bible's description of the creator, he hates, he's jealous, wrathfull, vengefull, petty and even childish at times yet is omnipotent and all loving at the same time? We have free will yet he knows the future? He knows his own future too, how can he choose anything at all if he knows his own future, doesnt that make it deterministic not free? These types of hard questions are where i struggle with it, too many opposites and paradox to be believable to me with what i understand at this point anyways but I really appriciate you replying with some real answers for me to chew on, having someone with real knowledge AND patience is truly a breath of fresh air for me with this subject I hope we can discuss this much more extensively I do find it all fastinating, thanks so much for your time duda, not related to mike duda are you? ..Chris