The hard part of Sobriety

[vduda]

Hey Chris,

I respect you greatly for having the civility to discuss such deep constructs. You made a great point by saying "the universe reeks of design". That's awesome! And I agree that there is a grand creator. You use the word "paradox" and that is exactly what I am. In short, it is a miracle that I believe in God considering my background and overall life. Look, I am a long haired hippie surfer with piercings and tattoos and a unique sense of fashion. Moreover, I scored a composite score of 149 on the Stanford Binet and a perfect score of 1600 on the GRE and almost perfect on the MCAT. On the ACT I scored a 35 which is in the 99 percentile. Now what does this mean...absolutely nothing. On paper I am a genius, but not smart enough not to become a junkie. So you have it.

I have been a skeptic my whole life and have battled against the status quo pretty much my whole existence. I grew up with immigrant parents, my father is an atheist and my mother was brought up Catholic in Brasil. In her time who wasn't Catholic in Brasil. Just a little background.

When I read the Bible for the first time at 17 I also had many questions and doubts. But I prayed even though I had not accepted Jesus as the Messiah who freely gives salvation to whomever will accept in faith. Faith...now that's a tough one. So here's my take after reading the 66 Books in the standard bible and psudopigraphas and Apo********************has in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

The Torah or the first five books of the Bible is actually an account of how man saw God, not how God saw man. In other words, God guided Moses, but it was Moses who interpreted what God gave to Moses to form a nation. Imagine 2 million people wondering in the desert for 40 yrs. There had to be strict rules so they would not perish. Again, the miracle is that they were able to survive for forty years in a desert with that many people. God communed with man...but of course man is going to interpret things as he understands, in a dicothomous manner. So either God was wrathful or He is merciful. The Hebrews chose wrathful for it gave them a structure that they needed to form a nation in the middle of a big dirt pile. The divine is powerful and His ways are not our ways. Just look at the universe and how mysterious it is and magnificent. And that is just God's footstool. So many questions...and so few answers. But many times the question is more important than the answer. So is God hateful, jeolous, wrathful, vengeful and childish. Emphatically, NO!!! That sounds like man to me. So when you take into account the Torah and rest of the books of the Old Testament take this into consideration. God creates the process, but it is man who uses it for good or evil. That is free will. So much debate about predestination. God is omnipotent and omnescient. And in being so He is above the mundane...He exist outside time and is not constrained. He is eternal...hard to imagine. However, being so does not interfere with free will. It is my choice to believe in Him or not. It is my choice to take a gun and rob a man of his life. Just because God knows does not determine the outcome. Again...free will.

Now when we get to the New Testament there is a significant change in the interpretation of God. And there is one reason for this fact and that is that God became flesh and dwelt among us in all His glory. In John it states "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with and the Word was God". In the Greek "Word" means expression thereof. So Jesus is the expression of God in the flesh...begotten, not created. What a wonderful God to become the very thing He created. Basically, He wouldn't ask us to do anything He wouldn't do Himself. Now that's cool. The creator of all things becoming that which He created. Yet He was 100% divine and 100% Man. That is why Jesus always referes to Himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. Most people during this time in Israel spoke Aramaic and the very statement of being the the Son of...means to be equal to that very thing. So Jesus was 100% God Man. Difficult for humans because we deal in dichotomy. The mystery is made known to those who have spiritual eyes and ears...to see and to hear. The scriptures saids, Jesus is the Alpah and the Omega; the beginning and the end, the first and the last. This is not to mean in a chrononlogical order, but rather cyclical or if you will eternal. Jesus has always been for He is the Word or Logos the very expression thereof of the Eternal God.

He lived as a man, was tempted, sweat, felt pain, struggled, and experienced everything we do, however, He was always stayed true to His divine nature...never sinning. Again, the mystery...the cross. Whatever happened on that spire of wood that He hung from brought man back into the eternal presence. He died for all our sins...past, present and future. The Law that Moses handed down to the Hebrews could not save them because not one man could ever fulfill them, except for one Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. He became sin for us that we could take part in that eternal promise. The good news is that He went into the belly of the earth for three days and even then His overwhelming mercy gave the lost souls a chance for salvation. Does this sound like the God of the Old Testament. Jesus was the exact reprsentation of God...His very radiance. He was gentle, humble, loving and caring. He was a servant...cleaned His disciples feet and healed the sick and infirmed. Elevated women to be equal with men (something unthought of at this time). Rose people from the dead. Cast out demons and had absolute power over principalities. Had power over the elements and yet aloud Himself to be put to death and treated with the utmost disrespect. This is the God I know and follow. God is Love. He is not burdensome, but rather removes the heavy load from your shoulders. Chris, take a look at the books of John in The New Testament. The Gospel of John and 1st, 2nd and 3rd John changed my life. Again, the good news is that He has risen and is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. We can go directly to God...no need for dogma and the institution. Now he who believes and confesses the Jesus is the Messiah takes part in His very body. I am part of that body. By Grace I was saved through faith...a gift not of works, lest any man should boast. In other words there is nothing I can do to obtain salvation...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It is free...God has paid the price with His blood. And in that blood we are washed as white as snow.

So I was saved when I was 17 and served God for many years, but again free will...brought me down almost to the grave. I can never lose my salvation since there was nothing I could do to earn it. Jesus never has lost one of His...no one can snatch me from His hand. I confess that in my 41 years of life I have done horrible, wicked things and have grieved the Holy Spirit that resides in me. But you cannot judge a man based on on snapshot of his or her life. You need to see it through. I have never forsook Jesus Christ. In my darkest hours I have never cursed Him or blamed Him for anything. Because I know I have free will. So I take responsibility for my actions. God has been very patient with me and that's a good thing because I can be such an idiot. But me writng this to you is a miracle in itself. Seek first the Kingdom of God and all things shall follow. I know that science is important to you so approach the scriptures using the process. I guarantee if you read the 4 books I recommended that your end result will be salvation.

Next time, I would like to give you my understanding on "evolution" or as I like to call it "deevolution". God Bless Chris.

VJ

[erinkj]

HOWDY! This may be a silly question but, i know you can answer it for me . What does a siezure feel like? I meen, do you get any warning signals before you sieze? or, does it just happen? Thanks in advance...Peace...Erin

[cmarino]

there is a lot of wisdom that can be extracted from these posts, irrespective of our personal convictions. but i can't get past one thing...

vduda -- in your first post you wrote "withdrawing is a temporary condition for most people". does that mean it's permanent for others?

i am NOT trying to play semantics. i'm just really taking everybody at their word at this point.

[Typical]

I have been away but have to respond simply as most has been said.

The GIFT of faith.
One must accept the gift first.

This is, quite simply, one of the reasons I have strayed from my "degreed profession."

T.

[mpvt]

Withdrawls differ from addict to addict or dependeant.What can happen especially with heavy long term addicts is that they quit and fall into PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawl Syndrome).Which is withdrawl like symptoms lasting for months and sometimes for the rest of your life.This is were ORT (Opiate Replacement Therapy) comes in.Alot of heavy long term addicts do well on a stable dose ofmethadone or buprenorphene.
I myself have been stable for almost 6 years now and I don't plan on getting off methadone ever.....DAVE

[Robert_325]

Withdrawls differ from addict to addict or dependeant.What can happen especially with heavy long term addicts is that they quit and fall into PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawl Syndrome).Which is withdrawl like symptoms lasting for months and sometimes for the rest of your life.This is were ORT (Opiate Replacement Therapy) comes in.Alot of heavy long term addicts do well on a stable dose ofmethadone or buprenorphene.
I myself have been stable for almost 6 years now and I don't plan on getting off methadone ever.....DAVE

I had PAWS each time I detoxed in the past following MANY years of opiate abuse ... everything abuse actually. The PAWS always lasted for months and would eventually cause me to relapse. It was awful. The last time I detoxed I used Subutex and only stayed on it for six weeks ... didn't have to use a maintenance dose for a long term. I had no recurring or ongoing symptoms of any kind. I believe, for me at least, it was because I never had to go through a horrible detox this time. Had to be in W/Ds before starting the Subutex but that was only a couple days. Since I never went into a heavy detox it seemed logical that this kept the PAWS from coming back. Just another plus to doing detox with ORT. Guess some of us need the ORT longterm and others can use it effectively for a shorter term.

[cmarino]

i was really hoping it was a poor choice of words. i saw people mention paws before, but i never knew what it was. thank you for the explanation.

[erinkj]

Vduda and Robert or anyone with advice. My 21 year old step son is headed for an early grave FAST. We sent him to re-hab back in january and he did well for awhile. At first he was only smoking a little green after a couple weeks out of re-hab. He has been back to his previouse habit of "wake and bake" green all day for months now and has fallen back into the habit that landed him in re-hab...banging dilauded. We are hearing rumors that he is shooting heroin also but, he denies that. This week he raided my husbands med bag of percs, vics, oxys and xanax and I am told that he took most of them together....He seldom ever drinks and when he does it is only a few but, he is drugged out of his mind ALL the time. He goes on drug binges and is currently on day 4 of his latest....so, I am told! He has done meth in the past but, he preffers banging ANYTHING! I am at my wit's end here...I love this boy with all my heart and I will NEVER give up on him. He doesn't live with us and he WON'T work, he goes from friends home to home until they are sick of him and kick him out...He has no criminal record and has always stayed out of legal trouble (unlike his 23 yr old brother who my husband plans to kill) he is a very loving, sweet person... he doesn't like to fight or cause trouble. His mom had him put on ritalin when he was a kid for ADHD and he has run the gamut of dextromethorophan, etc for years....He went off all psych meds when he was 17 and has been steadily adding to his drug portfollio since....Any advice on what to do for him? I don't want him to kill himself! My oldest stepson who is 23 is a fullfledged, brawling, trouble making, in and out of jail, alcoholic...this step son has O.D on coke and crank 3 times in the last 2 years....I love the oldest step son also and would help him to but, unfortunately he is not learning jack from all his jail time and all the help we have given him only seem's to encourage his behavior as he figures we will always bail him out etc, so, hubby has cut him off! The oldest is in denial therefore anything we say fall's on deaf ears but, the youngest readily admits he is an addict but, won't even try to stop using.....Any advice or recomendations would be most welcome guy's, I don't care if I have to commit them and they end up hating me forever...as long as they live, that is ALL I care about! ....Peace to you all...Erin

[Robert_325]

Sorry you are going through such heartbreak with your sons. I have been so fortunate to not have to deal with that with my children. I count my blessings daily. So not having direct experience with my own children I don't want to sound condescending. I can only share my opinion.

I know that as a parent we are willing to do anything to help keep our kids from going through what we did. But it becomes something we can't control by the time they are in their twenties. Addiction is heartless. It destroys everyone it touches. Sadly it's hold is often stronger than our love for the person who is addicted. One of the hardest things to do is to let someone we care about fall on their face. But if we continue to bail them out of trouble ... well it's almost a form of abuse to them I think. They have got to learn to live within certain perameters or face the consequences.

Having your sons' legal rights removed and becoming guardians or something similar is an option. But it's not as easy to do as it probably should be. It's much easier to have them arrested. But that is really a difficult thing to bring ourselves to do even if it might save their life in the long run. If they are not around you then they have a place to run to if you approach them. That makes it harder. Eventually they will use up all of their friends and have no place to turn. Maybe then they will be easier to approach ... provided they survive that long. But as long as they have a place to go it doesn't sound like they have truly hit bottom yet. In the end no one wanted to be around me. At that time I finally found more value in the relationship with family.

One thing that concerns me is you saying your son went off psych medicines.
Why did that happen? If he needs psych meds and isn't taking them then that could be a huge factor in this deal. I think too many drs pass out these medications, but for someone who needs them, it's really critical that they have them. I would seriously try to work something out with this if possible.

Other than getting your son back on his necessary psych medications I think you either have to have them put away or let them run the course and hope they survive. You can pray which I'm sure you have done. That helps but they can sabotage your prayer efforts with their actions. This is a tough situation. You don't have many options. Wish I had better advice but I don't think there is a stock answer that works. Everyone would know the answer if there was one that was tried and proven. Good luck and God bless.

[erinkj]

Thanks for the reply. I have not given up on my oldest step son but, we will no longer bail him out or help him with anything unless he would like to go to re-hab. (he has never been) I also know that this boy is in denial so, I can do nothing for him now but love him. The youngest step son, the one who I am very worried about and who has been to re-hab is making me so very heartsick...I constantly worry that I will get a phone call that he has been found dead with a needle in his arm, he is only 21....just a baby realy! Your words are very wise and I see the truth in them...I wish I could do something...he is told daily by his mother and other family members that he is stupid, worthless, etc and he talks to me about these things when I see him and we talk about his life (wish we saw each other more often then, maybe I could help more) I tell him he is NOT stupid, and he is not, he is so smart and capable of greatness...but, that he is making foolish choices...he is not stupid but his choices are! I know he started using as a way to self medicate his ADHd or perhaps it was to self medicate the withdrawals from years of prescription stimulants...either way he is using....I had him on St.Johns wort for a couple of months a few years ago but, it upset his stomache to much and that made him quit. I have discussed with my husband about getting him back on med's but, unless I am there to remind him, he won't take them...He had a terrible time remembering to take them and he had to be on sleeping pills to counteract the stimulant so he could sleep...ERGH...it is very frustrating.....I guess then, at this point all I can do is wait, pray and hope...At least he knows that we will move heaven and earth to help him off the drugs...and he knows that we love him....I have 3 of my own children also, ages 19, 16 and 12...they love their step brother and they all have mutual respect and freindship between them; my kid's talk to him frequently about cleaning up...He told me he feel's so guilty and hate's that they know he uses...maybe that will help push him to get clean.....You are right that sooner or later he will have no friends left and no place to go, I just hope it happens sooner.....Thanks alot for the support Robert...I may hit you up for detox advice if he tries to get clean...God Bless and peace to you...Erin

[Robert_325]

Erin ... if there is ever anything I can do to help you can always private message me anytime from this site if you would prefer. I am always available to try and help save a kid's life. I mean that. God bless.

[averagejoe2501]

Well said...you are a very intelligent, well spoken man....I agree with you 100 percent

[erinkj]

A couple of questions for you if you don't mind . Are you familiar with the flumazenil (sp?) detox for benzo's? I have "googled" and read some info but, I would like to hear from others who have detoxed that way. I thought VJ may know some about it but, I haven't seen him posting lately. I know that he could tell me about his benzo withdrawals. Do you have any past experience with xanax or other benzo withdrawal? I CANNOT handle boards like benzoisland...OMG, those people purvey some freaky ideas! And they scare the living sh*t right out of people, just reading there is enough to induce a panic attack . My dose is small compared to many (currently 1 1/2 mg per day) but, the way I am feeling between doses is beyond freaky and not quite like anything I have ever felt before...It would help me ALOT to find someone I could talk to that has been down this road....Oddly enough, I think comparing withdrawal symptoms would help keep me chilled and not as stressed thinking I am loosing it! EEK....Any idea's? thank's in advance...Peace...Erin

[Robert_325]

A couple of questions for you if you don't mind . Are you familiar with the flumazenil (sp?) detox for benzo's? I have "googled" and read some info but, I would like to hear from others who have detoxed that way. I thought VJ may know some about it but, I haven't seen him posting lately. I know that he could tell me about his benzo withdrawals. Do you have any past experience with xanax or other benzo withdrawal? I CANNOT handle boards like benzoisland...OMG, those people purvey some freaky ideas! And they scare the living sh*t right out of people, just reading there is enough to induce a panic attack . My dose is small compared to many (currently 1 1/2 mg per day) but, the way I am feeling between doses is beyond freaky and not quite like anything I have ever felt before...It would help me ALOT to find someone I could talk to that has been down this road....Oddly enough, I think comparing withdrawal symptoms would help keep me chilled and not as stressed thinking I am loosing it! EEK....Any idea's? thank's in advance...Peace...Erin

Hi Erin,

I have heard of fulmazenil, but only as a medication for treating overdose caused by benzos. I can see where something like this could be used for detox though. I also googled it just now and read a little about it. It is a partial agonist for benzos so it makes sense that it could be used for detox. This is the first I have heard of that use though. It's very interesting. VJ is on vacation. He is actually on his way to my house as we speak. I am looking for him to be here any day.

Guess benzoisland.org is a little too radical. LOL I will not suggest that people go there anymore. I have definitely gone through major detox from benzos. Have had seizures, electric shock syndrome, all of the major side effects. I used benzos for close to twenty years by prescription. Used xanax, klonopin, valium, ativan all of them. Of course I obtained extras too. Not proud, just a fact. At the end was taking about 15mg of xanax and about 6-8mg of klonopin a day. I really think, I know, it's very important to do a slow taper with a benzo that has a long half-life to control the detox side effects some. Detox from benzos can literally kill us. Seriously. Xanax is the most commonly used, but if we switch to klonopin or valium, they are the best to detox with. It has to be done slowly or the side effects are inevitable. Electric shocks really suck big time. I have been lifted off the floor with them. They will lift us off the mattress trying to sleep. They just come out of nowhere and it's like being shot with a huge dose from a stun gun. It hurts! I hate to even think about them. They go on forever too. Dreams are horrific during benzo detox. And the seizures are a total drag! I remember it all too well. There is also the awful metallic taste in your mouth that makes eating quite an experience. I will be happy to discuss it with you anytime. Just about to crash tonite, but I will be online tomorrow. Talk to you then.

[erinkj]

Thank you very much, it helps talking with those who have been there. I am in a real "funk" but am also a bit hormonal so, insult added to injury; so to speak!

Well, now I know where vj went, you guys have a great time and tell him I said hello. Last saturday night my hubby a friend and I went to see a show billed "zappa plays zappa." It was Dweezle Zappa playing Frank Zappa's tunes. Frank was a bit before my time but, I knew some of his tunes, hubby and friend grew up with that music so, they knew them all. The music was flawless! and we were in the second row, I never realized how many instruments Frank's music uttiliised, WOW, It was awesome!

I talked to our local psych "MORON" about the xanax dependence and the way I am feeling, etc; He said "Just break your morning dose in half for a week, then start breaking the afternoon dose for a week, then evening. In 3 weeks I should start ommiting one daily dose, etc!!!!" UM, I have been TRYING to break one dose in half a day and it is not working, in fact, I am fighting not taking a fourth dose (I am prescribed 1 x's 4 daily) DUH! This MORON is clearly not worth the paper that his useless degree is printed on....All this trouble stem's from trying to get off of SSRI med's after being on them for 11 years...This same psych tried to kill me the way he had me quit.....I am of course, back on the ssri so I can get off the benzo, so I can then taper off of the SSRI the RIGHT way (will take up to 2 years for me to be SSRI free) BIG DRAG! Yep, brain zap's S*CK, got those real bad with SSRI withdrawal along with to many freaky symptoms to list. I will say that ALL the symptoms I had with SSRI withdrawal mimicked many of the symptoms I was put on the med to treat only, the were worse than the original problems, with a few I had never had before. ( I was dx with panic disorder 11 yrs ago.....it was VERY ugly, but, probobly just excessive stress I may never really know)
Anyway, the symptoms I am having between xanax doses (withdrawals) are not quite like anything I have EVER had before. The pin's and needles stuff is no biggie to me, I have had that with panic, migraine and SSRI so, I can cope with that. Many of the symptoms I can cope well with as they are similar to panic and SSRI withdrawal and some are even like the neuro side effects that I get with migraines but, the symptom that is freaking me out is that I feel almost like my throat is closing off and like I will choke if I try to swallow in fact, I have a very difficult time swallowing at all when my benzo wears off. Also have ALOT of pressure in my head that is unlike any I have had before, lot's of twitches mostly in my face like my eyelid's etc. I am not getting brain zap's, at least nothing like when I went off SSRI, My co-ordination is off between doses, mostly my left side, my hand and arm feel like they are about to fall asleep or like they don't work right. I have had MRI's and CT scans this year because of stroke like symptoms I had with migraines but, they are all clear thankfully. There have been a few times that I have wondered if I was having a kind of a mild seizure but, I have not had an EEG and had no convulsions. I also have no one other than you guy's to compare notes with....I have read up on seizure symptoms and I have had many that fit....I am probobly just over complicating this all....I am no stranger to bizzare neurological symptoms, not with my history...(no drug abuse history for me though, acid twice as a teen and smoked green a few years back then, not scince I was 17 and am 35 now, I don't drink and have rarely ever used rx pain killers, even when I was rx'd them I stuck to OTC unless it was extreme) I saw my mom go through hell with the ton's of med's doc's had her on for 15 yrs so, I have always avoided med's when possible. I made an apt to see the psych ANP that cares for my hubby next tues, she is great but, my insurance won't cover it because she is an ANP so, it will be $190.00 out of pocket ERGH, but, she got my hubby off of 12 mgs xanax a day and safely switched to klonopin, now they are working at tapering his benzo and he is doing great so, I trust her to know what she is doing. She wanted to detox my hubby inpatient but, he refused...I would jump at that chance......I am scared, I admit it...especially when my hubby had nothing like the neuro symptoms I am having when he missed his high xanax dose, but I am getting withdrawals bad from a low dose, guess I am just very sensitive or maybe I am a sissy! Thanks again Robert, I appreciate you lending me your ear (so to speak) catch up to ya later...Peace and God Bless...Erin

[Robert_325]

Switching your xanax over to klonopin like your husband did makes all the sense in the world. Xanax half life is only about 6 hours and klonopin is about 30-36 hours. So it's a longer lasting benzo like valium. That is what people who know what they are doing have us do. It's a longer detox but you can do it with milder symptoms. I would really recommend that. Being you're not taking an extremely high dose of xanax you can do this the way your dr said to do it but you will have symptoms I assure you. Benzo detox sucks big time. It's really smart to do it the least painful way if possible. You won't seizure from the dose you're taking but it still won't be pleasant. I can still make suggestions as you go along either way. I don't envy you. It sends chills down my back just to think about it. I hated it.

I grew up with Frank Zappa. Mothers Of Invention was a favorite of mine in the 60s. Lots of people don't realize that Frank Zappa had a PhD in music. He was a genius. I still have a couple of his albums. I have Hot Rats from 69 I think, and Apostrophe. Your husband likely remembers them. Haven't played them in a while, but may have to now after thinking about them. Dweez is a great musician too. I have never seen him live, but have listened to his CDs. Frank was flipped out to name his kids Dweezil and Moon Unit. He had some unbelievable arrangements to his music. That is where all those instruments you spoke of came from. He played acid music with orchestras. Use to blow me away! He was incredible.

VJ and Mee should be here by the weekend. Haven't heard from them in a few days. They were visiting some other people first and are stopping here on their way to CA. I will show them around Houston some while they are here. Sure we will have fun. I will tell them you said hello.

Let me know how your detox is going. If I can help I will be happy to. Talk to you soon. Good luck and God bless.