Forum members - HELP ME OUT - I am a Police Officer

[investigator1]

Hello

I am a police officer/investigator and have been tasked with investigating Presciption Drug Abuse in our community. I am reaching out to the audience because this appears to be a legit forum and not one of those "how to grow marijuana" web sites.

I had a cousin die from liver complications due to alcoholism years ago, so my new assignment has a personal connection in some ways.

First, let me be clear, no tricks, I am a police officer, and I need your help (the users, victims, addicts, etc of drug abuse) to help ensure that it does not affect the next person, and that the dealers and organizations are held accountable. Be honest with me, TELL ME what I need to know.

In my opinion, if a medical doctor (educated professional entrusted to PROTECT patients) is knowingly causing Oxy addiction then that is worst than a crack dealer selling crack.

Some questions

1. What strategy would you recommend to law enforcement (from a "make arrests" standpoint, NOT drug education or counseling standpoint) to take in order to investigate pres. drug abuse?

2. What drug is the most abused? Some say Oxy, some say Adderall, etc.

3. How can I "target" the questionable doctors?

4. How can I enlist help from non-police (Pharmacists? etc) to expand these cases?

5. Is there a general sense that the doctors have zero concern about police/law enforcement/DEA in reference to pres drug abuse? I get the feeling that they are not exactly loosing sleep at night.

6. WHO is abusing these drugs? WHERE is the problem? Kids? Schools? College? Upper income adults? Low income kids in the projects? Etc

etc etc please comment

THANK YOU

[Robert_325]

1) If you want to address the RX drug problem then go after the people writing the prescriptions. I wouldn't even bother with arresting the addicts. Won't accomplish anything (never has) while scripts keep being written by the bandit drs and your jails are full of users, not organized crime figures and perpetrators of actual crimes.

I can go to a strange city where I have never been and tell you in one week who is writing the scripts. I simply check out the pill clinics. It's pretty obvious. They're the ones writing all the scripts for lorcets and lortabs, xanax and somas plus some diet pills for the wiredog patients.

2) The most scripts are written for hydrocodone. It draws less heat from the DEA for the drs than do oxy. Hydros are a schedule III and oxy is a schedule II controlled substance. The DEA just doesn't have the people to check out the schedule III scripts.

3) You are the cop. I think it's pretty obvious though. You go to their office. You would have to trip over yourself to not be able to see what is happening. It's so obvious. They don't even try to hide it.

4) You likely won't get a lot of help for the police from pharmacies that focus on illegal scripts. They are bandits too. The bandit drs own most of the bandit pharmacies. The legit pharmacies already watch for suspicious prescriptions and will automatically contact authorities when they are presented with suspect paperwork. That is why most addicts don't fill scripts from script drs at major pharmacies but use the specialty pharmacies the addicts all know about. Hell the pharmacies advertise at the script dr offices.

5) The drs who are concerned about drug abuse and legal compliance are not your problem. So obviously the drs who are only concerned with making money and are simply drug dealers with degrees are not paying a lot of attention to you because you never hardly catch them. It should be such an easy thing to address and the police are clueless.

6) Read this forum and you will find people of all types. Soccer moms, school teachers, professionals, and those economically less fortunate as well. Even police officers have come here for help. Drug addiction has no particular favorites with ethnic groups or socio-economic classes of victims.

I personally doubt that you get a lot more info than that. Maybe you will. Understand that you are the police. I work with parole officers and probation officers regularly anyway so they know me already. I work with them getting recently released convicts and those in the court system into recovery programs. But some people just don't want to talk with the police even though the police risk their lives everyday with most trying to do good as best they can. You have to understand THAT regardless of the innocence of your request. For what it's worth I personally agree with you and also believe that the scumbags who make victims of patients for personal financial gain should be dealt with properly. Hope this helps some. God bless.

[thatgirl1971]

Hello

I am a police officer/investigator and have been tasked with investigating Presciption Drug Abuse in our community. I am reaching out to the audience because this appears to be a legit forum and not one of those "how to grow marijuana" web sites.

I had a cousin die from liver complications due to alcoholism years ago, so my new assignment has a personal connection in some ways.

First, let me be clear, no tricks, I am a police officer, and I need your help (the users, victims, addicts, etc of drug abuse) to help ensure that it does not affect the next person, and that the dealers and organizations are held accountable. Be honest with me, TELL ME what I need to know.

In my opinion, if a medical doctor (educated professional entrusted to PROTECT patients) is knowingly causing Oxy addiction then that is worst than a crack dealer selling crack.

Some questions

1. What strategy would you recommend to law enforcement (from a "make arrests" standpoint, NOT drug education or counseling standpoint) to take in order to investigate pres. drug abuse?

2. What drug is the most abused? Some say Oxy, some say Adderall, etc.

3. How can I "target" the questionable doctors?

4. How can I enlist help from non-police (Pharmacists? etc) to expand these cases?

5. Is there a general sense that the doctors have zero concern about police/law enforcement/DEA in reference to pres drug abuse? I get the feeling that they are not exactly loosing sleep at night.

6. WHO is abusing these drugs? WHERE is the problem? Kids? Schools? College? Upper income adults? Low income kids in the projects? Etc

etc etc please comment

THANK YOU

Hello officer,

I want to applaud Robert's reponse because mine would have been the same. I'm not worried about the 20-somethings selling their parents' scripts for outrageous prices. It's the doctors...period! I had a neurologist that had an armed guard outside because of all the people walking out with no less than 14 scripts per visit. My pharmacy told him I was red flagged and he told them to fill it anyway.

Now my family doctor is doing the same thing. He is on the board of directors at our county jail, and he writes for the inmates every morning. Then he comes to the office and writes for his other addicts. It's every walk of life; this addiction/disease does not discriminate, and nobody is exempt.

I watch people in my doctor's offices. I see mom's nodding off (I know the methodone nod when I see it). I see 70-year olds telling their daughters they are just here for their pain meds. I see people with sunglasses on hiding their faces and going to the window over and over to see if they're next. Nobody ever misses their appt., there are no cancellations, and everybody walks out with a bounce in their step.

My brother-in-law is a pharmacist. The DEA downloads everything on the 1st and 15th of every month. Tramadol is the highest written script according to him because he can't keep it in stock. He says docs write it thinking people won't get hooked but they do. It breaks down like morphine. He said the DEA laughs when they see the same docs writing over and over, and my doctor is one of them. He's been investigated twice, and he is still practicing.

Short story long, IT'S THE DOCTORS. Kids and dealers on the streets can only get them from one place and that is from somebody who has connections with scripts.

Best of luck!
Joanie

[investigator1]

I absolutely agree we must pursue the doctors. By the way, thanks for the responses.

This may sound simple-simon, but give me a strategy. You are Officer Jones and you are in charge of investigating pres. drug abuse in your community. You want to take the doctors down.

Robert, you said

I can go to a strange city where I have never been and tell you in one week who is writing the scripts. I simply check out the pill clinics. It's pretty obvious. They're the ones writing all the scripts for lorcets and lortabs, xanax and somas plus some diet pills for the wiredog patients.

Can you expand on this? I am a dummy (but want to learn....). I am a dumb cop, drug cases to me are dirtbags who sell bricks of white powder concealed in a duffle bag in the trunk of their car, driving down the freeway at 53 MPH in a 55, carefully not exceeding the speed limit.

However, this is a new world for me. TRAIN ME ON THIS

[thatgirl1971]

[QUOTE=investigator1;212357]I absolutely agree we must pursue the doctors. By the way, thanks for the responses.

This may sound simple-simon, but give me a strategy. You are Officer Jones and you are in charge of investigating pres. drug abuse in your community. You want to take the doctors down.

Robert, you said



Can you expand on this? I am a dummy (but want to learn....). I am a dumb cop, drug cases to me are dirtbags who sell bricks of white powder concealed in a duffle bag in the trunk of their car, driving down the freeway at 53 MPH in a 55, carefully not exceeding the speed limit.

However, this is a new world for me. TRAIN ME ON THIS[/QUOte

I'm just as clueless as you are, but if the DEA doesn't cooperate, I'm afraid you are in for a very long haul. I wish you the best of luck. The best thing I could do is educate the people I know in my community...starting with my own kids. They are predisposed to addiction. I told them to never take a drink or a prescription drug that is habit forming.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Robert_325]

I can only spend so much time trying to educate the police department with this type of matter. You know for a fact that the guy driving 53 in a 55 with 5 kilos of powder bricks and has a Glock in his belt and probably a mac10 under the seat will "take you out INSTANTLY" if you even threaten his safety or freedom if he so much as even gets the jump on you for a moment. But yet you guys continue to go after him when busting the drs would place even a larger dent in the RX drugs available on the street. I am trying to work with those people having dependency and recovery issues to help save their lives and that has to have first priority for me. This isn't really a web site where undercover operations are dealt with for the police department. The police departments should be offering lots of money for people to professionally train thier officers in covert operations as they are obviously lacking expertise in know-how for this type of operation. You can only ask us to spend so much time on this subject as this is a long ways off from what I do here and my time is very limited.

Real simple. Just call around to clinics and find out who is writing scripts for lorcet, xanax and soma. Ask on the phone. Make up a patient story. Damn, be sneaky. Isn't that what you guys do??? They will likely tell you they need MRI copies or some proof that you have a bad medical condition. Phony up some obviously bogus mri report, something that the dr would KNOW was not real, but something that didn't look like a schoolchild put it together. Know what I mean by that? If a dr writes scripts repeatedly based on falsified medical reports and ficticious information then you have a scumbag dr in your lap along with the grounds you need to pursue him/her. What could possibly be so difficult in doing that? Hell, you guys would end up getting the bandit doctors, the pharmacies, pharmaceutical salesmen and all kinds of people. Just use your head. This should be a cake walk as blatant as these jerks are in the way they conduct their business. God bless.

[thatgirl1971]

I can only spend so much time trying to educate the police department with this type of matter. You know for a fact that the guy driving 53 in a 55 with 5 kilos of powder bricks and has a Glock in his belt and probably a mac10 under the seat will "take you out INSTANTLY" if you even threaten his safety or freedom if he so much as even gets the jump on you for a moment. But yet you guys continue to go after him when busting the drs would place even a larger dent in the RX drugs available on the street. I am trying to work with those people having dependency and recovery issues to help save their lives and that has to have first priority for me. This isn't really a web site where undercover operations are dealt with for the police department. The police departments should be offering lots of money for people to professionally train thier officers in covert operations as they are obviously lacking expertise in know-how for this type of operation. You can only ask us to spend so much time on this subject as this is a long ways off from what I do here and my time is very limited.

Real simple. Just call around to clinics and find out who is writing scripts for lorcet, xanax and soma. Ask on the phone. Make up a patient story. Damn, be sneaky. Isn't that what you guys do??? They will likely tell you they need MRI copies or some proof that you have a bad medical condition. Phony up some obviously bogus mri report, something that the dr would KNOW was not real, but something that didn't look like a schoolchild put it together. Know what I mean by that? If a dr writes scripts repeatedly based on falsified medical reports and ficticious information then you have a scumbag dr in your lap along with the grounds you need to pursue him/her. What could possibly be so difficult in doing that? Hell, you guys would end up getting the bandit doctors, the pharmacies, pharmaceutical salesmen and all kinds of people. Just use your head. This should be a cake walk as blatant as these jerks are in the way they conduct their business. God bless.

Robert, I totally agree with you. It's not just pain clinics; it's doctors in private practices. The DEA would need to cooperate. They are the ones that download every pharmacy's computer log on the 1st and 15th of every month. They have all the info right in front of them. Yes, the pain docs will try to get away with the control 3's; they are convenient and able to refill and call in. Sheduled 2 drugs cannot be called in and they cannot be refilled as you know. The DEA has all this information twice a month, and yet these doctors continue to practice. Sooner or later the soma coma patients and the hydrocodone abusers will need something stronger. That's when the oxycodone and oxycontin starts to be a problem.

Just my opinion for what it's worth. No good looking to what bigger ethnic group, economically well off or economically challenged. No neighborhood is going to tell you anything. You have to go to the SOURCE. It's in every community.

Joanie

[jdog55]

I have a question to you, if i was in my car and i would keep going over the lines. you would pull me over. you would see that i was on something. understand that allot of case not all the narcotics are precribed by there doctors. in my case, i /broke my neck back and both shoulders, this was 8 years ago. i have been on percacet and oxycoton. before i never ever took any kind of drugs or drank alcohol. i started to drink allot. i finally went cold turkey. i was tired of my life. i went back to my doctor and told him there has to be another way. so he gave me kadien 100mg. i started taking this med. it worked then i found out that this med is morphene,, now i am back to square one. the doctors are nothing but drug pushers. where you need to start is with the doctors. it is so easy to fill out a script and send you on your way. not all people who are using are druggies. i to worked for the police dept. to answer your question the most drug abused in this area is oxycoton {morphine} and the second is percacet..i hope you find all the answers you need. i commend you in caring...

[2old4this]

Sure would be nice to see some of these 'Dr. Feelgood' crooks stopped. My last pain mgmt dr. was absolutely to worst I've seen. Office was always packed. Standing room only. Wait every month was 2 hrs. or more, and never saw the doc - just his 'script writer'.

They still do those post-dated scripts. So, you can see all those same people from the Dr's office again - at the 24 hr. pharmacy waiting for a refill. They start to gather there about 11:30 pm so at midnight on the refill date they can ease the pain.

I've sat in this packed office so many times and heard couples or partners talking, or very quietly arguing about how "...I wouldn't run short if you weren't taking as much of this stuff as I am..." trying to talk the doc into an early refill.

Doesn't take much mental gymnastics to see what goes on out there - every time. For this doc to be oblivious to all this is just not believable.

Although this dr. was certified for subutex/suboxone he wouldn't prescribe it to me or anyone that wanted off opiates. He'd just say 'cut back a while, and still write the prescription for the same mg. and amt. He knew. And always Kadian ($$$) with another prescription for generic ms contin in addition.

I've thought about this guy a lot n the last few months. But I'm sure he's figured out how to cover his tracks. Like having you sign a disclaimer about the effects of opiate drugs - and they give you this paperwork MONTHS after you've been taking strong stuff. Right...

[h8mylife]

This sounds fishy. Maybe it is just me- but seriously?
especially since there have been no posts from "investigator1" since Robert gave him the `suggestions'.... I dunno maybe I am just too suspicious?
quote: "I am a dumb cop".... would the force put a `dumb cop' on an assignment like this? I am willing to be wrong- this could be legit........
shrug---- h8

[cagirl]

Your right h8...I have a few cop friends theres no way they would post on here, announcing it anyway... He just dosen't sound legit to me, Whoever it is ??

[Username removed at request of user]

I agree sounds a little funny to me.. when we all know all you have to do is make up a fluke ailment, get set up wth PM doctor and there ya go , got all the info you need right at your fingertips,, how hard is that to figure out.. want to bust the doctors, be a patient. simple as that.

[investigator1]

People my inquiry was legit. I apologize if it is too "out of the box" to try a radical idea such as actually pose a question directly to users and addicts.

I am sorry if this was too shocking to you.

I guess I should stick to "cop work" and stop being creative.

I came out, told you I was a police officer, made it clear, and people are still not happy.

To the folks who responded, thanks for the info. I have learned ALOT over the last couple of days.

Thanks again

[h8mylife]

Investigator1,
Thankyou for responding. And actually- thanks for `thinking outside the box'. Don't take it personal. As abusers- we are suspicious by nature. Or maybe it is just me. I actually think it is a nifty idea to ask 'us' as we would be the ones to know- obviously. Trust me: there is very little out there that could `shock me'.- this just seemed strange, period. So thank you for clearing it up. And don't sell yourself so short- you were bright enough to post the questions. (that took some b*lls)
As I stated: "I am willing to be wrong".. and thankful I was. You won't please alot of people ever-- that's just life. (ha)
So don't worry about not making people happy. If you are to continue on this project that the boss has given you---- you'll find that ALOT of people will be t*cked-off.
God bless and happy hunting! har har-- h8

[musicman48]

People my inquiry was legit. I apologize if it is too "out of the box" to try a radical idea such as actually pose a question directly to users and addicts.

I am sorry if this was too shocking to you.

I guess I should stick to "cop work" and stop being creative.

I came out, told you I was a police officer, made it clear, and people are still not happy.

To the folks who responded, thanks for the info. I have learned ALOT over the last couple of days.

Thanks again

No offense to you sir, we have no one to blame but ourselves for our addictions,but most of the people here are trying to solve the immediate threat of addiction or w/d and how to get clean and support each other , staying clean, and educate ourselves on addiction and addiction solutions and questions about drugs we may be taking.."not abusing" If you are a real cop and you are as naive as you say you are, then contact the DEA and let them help you out/educate you on local investigation procedure/technique.Respectfully.

[2009kim]

My suggestion is start seeing doctors. My GP issues my friend scripts all the time. She had him put her son on Aderal with out refering her to anyone. They were in the doctor's office less than an hour.
You need to start sending in people to check out the doctor's to see how fast they write you a script. Doctor's that write scripts for everything have a reputation.

[sisterwin2]

this guy is bs......... LOL. Not sure why he is here but no one this stupid is an investagator....

But a good laugh.

Sister

[glitch]

This was a real 4ull shi5 stunt by a fake or stupid cop.



Thanks Robert for holding our ground

we are here to help people not do the law inforcement work for them. GLITCH

[kimmygirl]

Hello Mr. Investigor,

Don't they teach this stuff (what you need to know) at the police academy where you trained to be a cop? I think you are going about your investigation all wrong. How do the other cops in your precinct go about drug investigations?

kimmygirl

[2manycats]

No offense to you sir, we have no one to blame but ourselves for our addictions,but most of the people here are trying to solve the immediate threat of addiction or w/d and how to get clean and support each other , staying clean, and educate ourselves on addiction and addiction solutions and questions about drugs we may be taking.."not abusing" If you are a real cop and you are as naive as you say you are, then contact the DEA and let them help you out/educate you on local investigation procedure/technique.Respectfully.

I was just reading old threads & came across this one. I couldn't agree more, Musicman. There is no one but myself to blame for my addiction.

The one local doctor who did try to help me with my chronic pain by prescribing opiates was very strict on his patients following through with other treatments (injections, PT, etc.) in conjunction with medication. No other physician within a 60-mile radius treated chronic pain.

It was my own addictive behavior that found the online pharmacy world.

There is a fine line between our government closing down blatantly illegal pill mills and overstepping their boundaries by interfering with pain management specialists.

I watched my mom battling stage IV lung cancer (metastasized to the brain, liver, spine) struggle in pain every single day because her oncologist refused to bump up or switch the Tylenol #3 and 0.5 mg Ativan he prescribed her during the last 6 months of her life.

She needed adequate pain medication but the specialist insisted that she could "cope" with codeine alone. His one comment to my dad was sickening - he told Dad that he was more concerned about the DEA "breathing down his neck" than anything else. My mother cried out in pain so often. My dad refused to switch oncologists due to insurance. She suffered as a result.

Dad spoke with the Walgreen pharmacist who only reinforced the oncologist's view - and added that codeine was ADDICTIVE. Yes, she actually said that, knowing damn well that Mom was in the end stages of cancer.

Dad's way of dealing with it all was to find the closest bar and get smashed, unfortunately.

When Hospice stepped in during the last 2 months, Mom was immediately given morphine and it released her from that agony. They were angels. I struggle with the guilt every day about letting Mom suffer like that.

There really are chronic pain patients who do NOT become addicted to their pain medication, who take it as prescribed. I was just not one of them. And whose business is it if a dying patient needs and uses morphine every 8 hours?

I don't see why my behavior and other addicts' behavior -along with overzealous government agencies - should be used as an excuse to punish physicians who truly care about relieving legitimate pain.

Honestly it frightens me to think about the number of terminally ill patients & CP patients who suffer every day because their physicians are afraid of the DEA's scrutiny.

There is such a fine line here.

I'm sorry for the rant - had to let it out. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Jess

[Robert_325]

You didn't offend anyone. No one in their right mind would disagree with your comments. It's sickening that people have to suffer when terminally ill because drs are afraid. I personally don't think it matters if a terminal patient becomes addicted to pain medication. I mean really .. what difference does it make? Let them be as comfortable as they possibly can. I can't imagine anyone who would argue that philosophy ... especially if they have watched a family member go through what you describe. Most of us have had similar experiences. God bless.

[Psyched]

Robert,
You have a good point. I feel the same way. I mean, if the patient IS terminally ill, what the heck is the point? I personally don't think they are going to get THAT addicted. We occassionally have terminally ill psych patients and I have had a couple of nurses tell me that they wish they could just offer them whatever they wanted just to keep them comfortable. It is a dilemma, but I know what I WISH I could do for them