Find Roberts Comments, take it to heart - my 2 Cents (or 2mg) getting off suboxone

[Bitor2010]

I just wanted to tell you as a long time (over 3 years) dependent of Suboxone/Subutex, that, the intense desire, panic and fear and need to jump off of this horrible, horrible stuff (whatever your opiate of choice is/was), is completely understandable (and indeed the very personality of an addict seems to be all or nothing), but I would urge even plead that you make a battle plan and READ AND DIGEST WHAT ROBERT suggests!! I am not a doctor, and this is just my opinion only (albeit a strong one and learned through pain).
Finding the dose that makes you physically OK but NOT high on Suboxone and then tapering (Robert seems to be the most rational and caring person to turn to for a schedule) by 25% every 5th day (so 4 straight days on the reduced dose) seems to be working for me (as per Roberts’s suggestions). I would urge using the new "Film Strips" of this stuff as it is so much easier to cut it if you can get them - the reason they came out with the films is undoubtedly because they found that even jumping from small doses of Suboxone, even if you have been there for awhile, can be almost as bad, if not worse than what I have read about Methadone detox. The good news, it seems pretty easy to come down from a large dose to the smaller doses, so I do believe you can take shortcuts down to say 4 to 8MG a day, but then…...
What precipitated my taper? :
I was put on 32MG of Suboxone right off the start, over three years ago, after having been up to 30 some odd Blues (10MG of hydro) a day. First, this was overkill and anyone starting on Suboxone, please, please don't let your (usually well meaning) doctor put you on so much of this stuff when it’s completely unnecessary in most cases. Let him prescribe you 32 or 24 MG/day, but stockpile it, cut up those pills right away and as soon as possible, find the dose that does not make you high, but that takes the pain away. And YES you can get a high on Suboxone, don't let anyone kid you (if you keep trying it will stop making you high real quick which is good). Fortunately, for the last couple years I have been in the 8 to 2 MG range, many months of taking less than 2MG, as I did eventually get semi-serious about getting off of it – but I still used it as a crutch emotionally, so never gave the taper a real try (and I would abuse over X-mas, etc.).
Well, so I was feeling bad anyway, trying to keep at ¾ of a 2MG pill, went back up to over 2MG for a week, got sick of myself and did a crash taper then jumped on a Friday – by Sunday I was insane with Withdrawal and desperation – I mean I have a family and a job and no money in the bank, so I needed to function. I took enough to feel half human on that Sunday night, went without for another 24 hours which brought me to my doctor’s appointment on Tuesday. The doc gave me 30 of the 2mg “Film strips”, which are very easy to taper down with. Took enough of what I had on hand at the docs to feel ok and then, on a Wednesday took nothing, AND found this board, thank God.
Quickly started getting rational and decided that since I had put my body through hell, I would try to start my taper at .5MG. It worked, I was able, with some heavy depression and minor physical withdrawal, but by the second day, I was OK. I did get some mild exercise, soaked in a hot tub, and that helped. But that magic number seems to be 4 days, as although I think .5MG was a tad lower than where I was actually at, I was able to stabilize so now I am on day one of .375, its noon, and I feel better than I have in quite awhile (my job is horrible and I take Welbutrin, so all of this makes things harder – but if I can stay as far away from the physical withdrawals as possible, I think I can do this. At this point Robert would be skipping days, but I feel that since I crash landed into my taper, I am going to keep to the 4 full days, and jump off in the microgram range (like .010). One thing to add – the strangest part is that the withdrawal as you taper should be minor, but it can come up and hit you in the face for half a day, and then calm back down – eat right, rest, get some exercise, soak in a hot tub, take supplements, just as if you were going cold turkey.
Anyway, my main point is, that no matter if you been on Suboxone or another powerful opiate for any length of time as to make you physically dependent DO NOT GO COLD TURKEY ESPECIALLY ON SUBOXONE, you will probably not get through the first 3 or 4 days and Suboxone tricks you as it will take until day 3 until you really start feeling bad (half life or “stickiness” of the drug)- of course my fear is that, even jumping at that low rate I will get sick (so I allowed for skipping days at .01mg for up to a week if needed) but if it’s just mild lethargy or depression, I can run that off (treadmill) or biking. OH, almost forgot I pray daily for God to fix my brain, as he is the ultimate healer and knows what to do. I think this coming to a head, and I finding this Board at the same time my doc was promoting the strips was divine intervention – I have no doubts about this. I pray for you and all of us that suffer and fight the good fight – don’t give up. I will post back when I can and let you know how my “micro” taper works. God bless all of us and thank you Robert, thank you – I have real hope for the first time in quite awhile that I can beat this, and beat it before my next doc visit!

[Bitor2010]

Just an update, I am on the first day at .21mg, no skipping days planned on my taper until later as I have been on this stuff so long (however I have been doing the full four days and then cutting by exactly 25%). The films have let me literally go sub .01 if need be - I think I WILL start trying to skip at .01. - why so low? Well, because I can for one thing, and because I feel with the half-life hot on my heals, it makes more sense to stretch it out after 3+ years on this stuff. NO, not going to be tempted to "jump" - wanted to at first, but no

It has been no cake walk as its only been a week and I went from a hard earned .5 (a quick cold turkey come down from 1.5mg before I found this site) to .21 - I figure that I am only taking about 14% of what I was taking three weeks ago (about 1.5mg/day).

But my advice, if you can exercise, vigorously, do it!! It will wipe you out at first but it will take away that panic anxious dread feeling and give you a few hours of feeling good! I think it will also ease the transition when PAWS comes a crawling.

I RUN, fairly hard - I overdid it a bit at first and could only eat and sleep afterwards, but only 4 days into running, I am feeling better and have more stamina and I think it’s making the taper much easier. If you can't RUN, Bike, if you can' Bike, Swim, or walk or whatever, can't stress it enough if you are able - force yourself if you have to, you won't be disappointed and it may just give you that bump you need to keep on keeping on the taper and beyond. Love you all, God bless, and thanks Robert for maybe saving me a lot of agony with your method.

Going down every 5th day has not been without some bad days, but mainly anxiety and some RLS - no big headaches or stomach issues, hot and cold

[oneistoomany]

This is really good advice Bit! Keep up the great work, you sond like you are doing amazing. I am happy for you~

Becky

[Bitor2010]

Becky,

You are the first to respond to any of my 3 posts and it felt good, just that "way to go" can be so important, especially from people who know what they are talking about. I am going to try and keep my progress posted since I am a long term Suboxone user and using a variation on Roberts Plan. So far today I feel fine physically and only a bit of fog and a tad of transient anxiety- I am going to look for your posts and read up on your story if you have been here before.

Thanks again!

Tom

[oneistoomany]

On 3-24 I will be 2 months clean. I didn't go the Sub route, I went off opiates cold turkey. I am finally starting to feel better. I was having a lot of anxiety issues, but this last week everything seemed easier and not so difficult.

Write down your journey here so that you can have a history of how you are feeling. I read mine every once in a while to remember where I never ever ever want to be again. Sometimes it does feel as if you are talking to yourself, but still keep writing- it is very theraputic.

Robert is an amazing man and I have so much respect for him. I know he isn't feeling well right now. Well, for what it is worth~ Welcome to the board and keep up the good work. :-)

Take Care,
Becky

[Bitor2010]

WOW, congrats!! I could tell you went CT from looking at some of your posts, but was unsure of how you were doing, that is soooooo great to hear- I will keep posting, daily if possible. Yeah, I heard he was sick and I was sad - I don't know him from Adam, but he gave me hope with the tapering plan and seems to have helped so many others - I will keep him and you in my prayers! Keep up the great work!

[Sydney0502]

Hi Bit, I just started tapering with Sub this past weekend. It amazes me you started your taper at .5? I dont even know where to begin to get to that using a 8mg pill>? Unfortunately but fortunately I used Subutex, not suboxone. I cant do the Nalexone (or whatever that stuff is) since my DOC is Tramadol at over 1k mg a day..can cause seizures, etc. Plus, I didnt want to have to deal with more drugs to come off of.

anyway, something you said in your post stood out that "I think" needs more addressed. You said you take enough not to get "high" just not sick anymore. THIS is what I needed to understand more of before I did my first Sub. Of course, as most people are, my first day I was more paranoid just not to take the Sub too early and get the precipitated w/drawal.

I started the whole (lowest possible dose) induction but ended up taking the entire 8mg pill. My doctor overprescirbed me too and I am kicking myself not asking for the 2mg pills instead of the 8mg (plan to go back this week and ask to switch) but I just filled the prescription and not sure if the insurance will let me get another "prescription". I dont think the Pharmacy will take a "trade"....lol.

Anyway, you read everywhere that so many people say their first experience with sub is as if they were sober for the first time. So I guess I thought when I "level" I will feel practically normal. But interesting, now that I think of it, if you are using this the correct way, why would you want to feel the same as you would the day before taking an opiate (or whatever) at such extreme doses. In other words, most of us going to sub are already out of control with whatever our DOC is. We are way beyond tolerance to what is considered "reasonable". So to get feeling "ok" the first day on Sub I would need to allow the Sub to take the difference in withdrawals of what I had the day before. It makes sense to still be in a state of w/drawal after taking your Sub as you dont want to be "high" or "feeling well" but rescued from the horrible "counterproductive" withdrawals which usually have us using again.

So, if I would have understood this better I may have tolerated some of my symptoms more or atleast not freaked out. I still continued to sweat, be chilled, have an overall "malaise" feeling after 4mgs. BUT, I didnt wait long enough and took the rest of the 8mg.

I stopped only because Robert's posts are so adament of 8mg being the max in most cases.

But now Im disappointed I am at 8. Today is my first "stable" day from the induction. Meaning I am told to stay at 8 for 4 days (4mg in morning and 4mg at night).

For you though, reading how much you were on..how on earth do you feel at .5mg? I agree, exercise, excercise.

I want to come down more but I just came off Tram and with Tram it can stay in your system for months and if I was going cold turkey..I can tell you I would just now being hitting huge withdrawals. So I am fine feeling what I am feeling.

But, I have never felt out of withdrawal like so many people say their first experience is. Can you let me know what is "leveling". What are we to expect and accept when we take our doses to not trick ourselves into thinking we need more? Blessing to you for sharing and I am here praying for you and will continue to watch your experience. Its hard to relate to so low dose though. I am looking for someone similar to me..just starting on 8mg...but I feel anyone at this point tapering from this stuff I can relate too!

[humbled6893]

Just an update, I am on the first day at .21mg, no skipping days planned on my taper until later as I have been on this stuff so long (however I have been doing the full four days and then cutting by exactly 25%). The films have let me literally go sub .01 if need be - I think I WILL start trying to skip at .01. - why so low? Well, because I can for one thing, and because I feel with the half-life hot on my heals, it makes more sense to stretch it out after 3+ years on this stuff. NO, not going to be tempted to "jump" - wanted to at first, but no

It has been no cake walk as its only been a week and I went from a hard earned .5 (a quick cold turkey come down from 1.5mg before I found this site) to .21 - I figure that I am only taking about 14% of what I was taking three weeks ago (about 1.5mg/day).

But my advice, if you can exercise, vigorously, do it!! It will wipe you out at first but it will take away that panic anxious dread feeling and give you a few hours of feeling good! I think it will also ease the transition when PAWS comes a crawling.

I RUN, fairly hard - I overdid it a bit at first and could only eat and sleep afterwards, but only 4 days into running, I am feeling better and have more stamina and I think it’s making the taper much easier. If you can't RUN, Bike, if you can' Bike, Swim, or walk or whatever, can't stress it enough if you are able - force yourself if you have to, you won't be disappointed and it may just give you that bump you need to keep on keeping on the taper and beyond. Love you all, God bless, and thanks Robert for maybe saving me a lot of agony with your method.

Going down every 5th day has not been without some bad days, but mainly anxiety and some RLS - no big headaches or stomach issues, hot and cold

Hey Bit,
You and I are a lot alike. I started my induction on sub at 1.5 mgs about three weeks ago. I've tapered slowly down to now .25ish (it's tough getting the dose correct breaking up a 2mg pill). I've struggled with anxiety, depression, chills, headaches, etc. But all of it has been manageable. And I feel that having these symptoms is a reminder that I'm getting off the opiates that I've been on for the past 4 yrs.

You're doing great! I also agree that exercise is critical. There have been so many days that I haven't felt like going, but I force myself. I always feel better afterwards.

Keep doing what you're doing and know that we're all supporting you.
Humbled

[Bitor2010]

Well, I had a setback, not under my control - my wife cuts up the strips -we had 8 and 2mg strips, so yesterday, intead of my .21, I took more like 1mg - total honest mistake, but made me feel horrible as I felt STONED. I am trying now to skip at least two days and get back to .21 as I figure I took 5 times what I should have been, but its one dose, had to fight not to panic and was really angry at my wife, and then myself - I have appologized to her, but I think she gets how important every hard fought step is now.

[Bitor2010]

Well, I had a setback, not under my control - my wife cuts up the strips -we had 8 and 2mg strips, so yesterday, intead of my .21, I took more like 1mg - total honest mistake, but made me feel horrible as I felt STONED. I am trying now to skip at least two days and get back to .21 as I figure I took 5 times what I should have been, but its one dose, had to fight not to panic and was really angry at my wife, and then myself - I have appologized to her, but I think she gets how important every hard fought step is. I felt so bad for getting mad as she is only trying to help, but she put an 8MG cut up strip in my pill box where my 2mg cut up into .21's go - I was so down, hard to explain how bad I felt - but press on!

[Bitor2010]

listen, hang in there, do the full four days on - it will get easier and exercise if you can! It does get easier, especially if you can exercise kind of moderate to hard

[Bitor2010]

Leveling - take four full days at a 25% dose reduction and make sure you feel ok, if not, maybe add a day before droping another 25% - I am using suboxone film strips so I can cut them up into tiny slivers - If you can get them get them. If not, there are others around this board that teach you to disolve your pill and use an eye dropper to get the exact dose - works the same. Get feeling ok, stabilize for 4 days, then cut by only 25%, forget about how long it takes, just set your plan and go for it.

[Bitor2010]

It was a rough setback, both the physical feeling and the stupidity of it, combined with fear - but here I am at work, took nothing this AM, going to try and skip tomorrow (unless I get sick) - took a pretty vigerous walk at lunch which calmed me down and I finally feel like my head is clearing - I am thinking, that if I skip today, and maybe tomorrow, I should be able to get back on my .21 (two more days left, but will allow up to 3 extra days if this mistake cost me that much). I don't think it will, but with this drug, at these small doses, I am out of my knowlege - will let you all know.

[Bitor2010]

Update to the setback - Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat with exercise? Or half-life? Or a little of both probably. So that Wednesday when I, completely by my wife’s accident, took 1MG film instead of my second day at .21 (so probably 1MG!) - made me HIGH but sick and weird, dejected, scared, angry. But the next day, Thursday, I took nothing, hanging in through the anxiety of the day. Then I got home and ran on the treadmill harder than I have ran in many years. My legs ached last night and some today, but totally blew any withdrawal/PAWS out of the water!!! Went from feeling that head full of lead to feeling GOOD. Woke up this AM feeling GOOD! Did not take anything so far today, took a hot shower.

So do I think it’s done for me? Man that would be a miracle, if I could just rely on exercise, from now on, etc. BUT, Tommy is no fool. I had my wife put two .9mg slices in my pill case for today in case I got sick as I know this half life thing can play tricks on anyone. My plan is to make it at least until tomorrow morning (72 hours without a dose, after that big whammy of a mistake), then dose at an even smaller dose .9mg, wait an hour (btw, the smaller the dose, the longer it takes to feel relief) and then take another .9 to stabilize. Then try to stay stabilize for 3 more days and move on with my taper skipping .21 if possible. If not, I will move back to a couple days at .21. My main point is to get back on track, and maybe even gain.

So you see what I did, with God’s help, and my wonder Wife, I did not give in, I fought back hard with hard exercise - if you can do any type of exercise do it as it will help very much if you are tapering and even if you are going CT (although it does not last as long going CT, and I have done this many times). Besides, you get hooked on exercise and it will take care of most of the PAWS, I promise you that. You may NOT feel good while exercising but you will soon after you are done.

Wish me luck peeps. If I wake up tomorrow and feel OK, I will get on my bike and take a ride - can't run that hard two days in a row! Don't want to kill myself. If I go downhill today where I am sick, I will take .9mg today and .9mg in the am, and then go to a .18 stabilizing dose. Praying for all of you, please do so for me, I will keep you all posted. EXERCISE, can't stress it enough.

God bless all of us who are fighting - we did it to ourselves but:

"Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls;
the most massive characters are seared with scars."
Khalil Gibran

[oneistoomany]

You sound great!! I am so happy for you-- before you know it you will be off Sub. You are in my prayers~ I hope you are having an awesome day :-)

Becky

[Bitor2010]

Thank you Becky! I am sure you know what it means to have someone give you that pat on the back when you need it - Thank You so much. I am certainly cautious and don't want to push so hard that I go backwards (that ain't going to happen), but at the same time I think we have to balance this being good to ourselves with the realization that it will, at times, be some hard won battles - You did it CT if I remember right, well I think that is the best as you never forget the pain (or at least not for awhile). So in an odd way, I welcome some suffering as I want a reminder of what it took to get through this, something to make me never want to go back, and I am getting those times for sure.

But back at you, congrats for another sober and hopefully happy day! You are inspirational.

[oneistoomany]

There is a lot of truth in feeling the pain of withdrawals. I relapsed one time and now I know without a shadow of a doubt that if I take 1 pill I will have to feel the pain of withdrawals. I think one reason why some people relapse at least one time is we get over confident and the addict in us convinces us that we can be in control and use recreationally or to just get through one tough day... I did go cold turkey both times I quit and I can say that I am 100% sure I will never have to feel wds again.

So take the tough days in stride, get through them and remember them!!!

Thank you for your kind words and for keeping us posted on how you are doing- write both the good and the bad and any random thoughts you want to remember-- I go back to my thread every once in a while to remind myself that wds are as bad as I remember.

Take Care
Becky

[Bitor2010]

Update, 14 days Suboxone FREE!!! - sorry it’s taken me so long to update my progress but I was in a really nasty bike accident (not motor bike, regular), messed up my lip and face pretty bad and was out of work for 7 days. BUT, the great news - I had not taken anything up until the accident, in the ER I was offered morphine or vicodin, but I opted for a NASDI (non-narcotic and just quit it from there) and I am glad to say that, although I have some more healing to do from my accident, I am on day 14 or 15 with NO SUBOXONE. So the taper and exercise worked, taper after 4 full days at 25% less than what you were taking, and use the film strips, go down as far as you want - mine ended pretty much (besides that mistake) at the first dose of .21, but then again I had the Trauma and 9 days away from work (but I did NOT suffer much except for some anxiety and maybe RLS - God works in mysterious ways. I did pay for it though as my lip is going to need a plastic surgeons touch to completely fix. BUT, I would say that is more than a fair trade to be off this ????. Paws? Yes I have some, but don't listen to the horror stories, it gets better every day!! And exercise when you can. God bless, I will update in a week or two to let you all know I am still SUBOXONE FREEE - the taper works!! Don't listen to the people with the horror stories, I don't think they were doing it right or were really being honest.

Tom

[swtrigal]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! for your journaling of the Sub taper. I have hope after reading on this forum and your posts have done much to bring encouragement to me! I too, am a runner and will plan on upping my miles on the road to getting off Suboxone (probably in 3 weeks I will start the taper)..I have been horrified that the Drs that prescribe this medication are not knowledgeable about the intense withdrawal getting off this stuff. The closest thing I heard to the truth was my Psych saying "well I have noticed some people have a hard time tapering down from 2 mg"..
So grateful that folks here understand. i have tried to "jump" off the Subs at 1 mg and had miserable withdrawal and did not last.
Thanks for the updates! Bringing prayer in the picture is what I need to hear also. I do pray but it has been kind of a nightmare these last 7 months since rehab. I just want to be done with the whole thing..

[Bitor2010]

YOU WILL! And follow the taper! Go down as far as you need, and then skip days if you have to. As a runner, as you taper, you will notice how great you feel after and it lasts - you won't feel perfect or 100% even after its done, but you can then run your way free of that - I am sure. If it was not for my bike accident, I think I would be 90% and minimal PAWS due to running - when you feel that anxiousness, run, run, run. Your legs may ache a bit, but as a runner, you know your limits, you don't have to kill yourself, just be aggressive. God bless and YES, I prayed everyday for God to fix what was wrong with my brain - and thanked him for my life - kept it that simple. Best luck and I know for SURE you will do it and it won't be 1/10th as bad as you are thinking right now.

[Robert_325]

YOU WILL! And follow the taper! Go down as far as you need, and then skip days if you have to. As a runner, as you taper, you will notice how great you feel after and it lasts - you won't feel perfect or 100% even after its done, but you can then run your way free of that - I am sure. If it was not for my bike accident, I think I would be 90% and minimal PAWS due to running - when you feel that anxiousness, run, run, run. Your legs may ache a bit, but as a runner, you know your limits, you don't have to kill yourself, just be aggressive. God bless and YES, I prayed everyday for God to fix what was wrong with my brain - and thanked him for my life - kept it that simple. Best luck and I know for SURE you will do it and it won't be 1/10th as bad as you are thinking right now.

You have done an awesome job. Deserve to be proud of yourself. I love seeing success stories of people following the instructions to the letter and being successful. Share around the forum. Glad you are here! Happy to see your faith in prayer. He's never let me down yet. God bless.

[Bitor2010]

Robert, I don't know you except from reading most of your posts, but I owe you more than I can repay - the taper plan, the success stories, all were so, so important to me, thank you and thank God for people like you.

I had last heard you were Ill and I was sad about that - I hope you are doing much better!

Tom R.

[Robert_325]

Robert, I don't know you except from reading most of your posts, but I owe you more than I can repay - the taper plan, the success stories, all were so, so important to me, thank you and thank God for people like you.

I had last heard you were Ill and I was sad about that - I hope you are doing much better!

Tom R.

Tom,

That is very kind. I appreciate the well wishes. You're more than welcome for any help I've been able to provide. God bless.

[oneistoomany]

Tom!! Just poking my nose in here to say GREAT JOB!! I am so happy that you are doing so well (Sorry to hear about the accident though.)

Keep up the great work~
Becky

[xguntherc]

It's great to read all of your stories in here guys.. day 14 with no sub sounds great. Well done.

So a petal bike accident? I have a Trek EX8 mountain bike I plan to ride a bit more once I get past this sub BS.

What do you guys mean by PAWS? (post acute withdraw syndrome or someething)
is that something that should be worried about? or just the after affects your body may go though after having such a large change.

I am a 3 yr sub user, on day 3 of the taper plan. Went down to .5 mg of the strips for a while. took none wednesday, took .5 thurs, and nothing today. I plan to take hopefully nothing tomorrow but I also have to be at work and very alert for my job. And I will be running around and sweating a bit. That might actually help. I might take a sliver, sliver of the film for work, but not sure.

suggestions.

[Robert_325]

It's great to read all of your stories in here guys.. day 14 with no sub sounds great. Well done.

So a petal bike accident? I have a Trek EX8 mountain bike I plan to ride a bit more once I get past this sub BS.

What do you guys mean by PAWS? (post acute withdraw syndrome or someething)
is that something that should be worried about? or just the after affects your body may go though after having such a large change.

I am a 3 yr sub user, on day 3 of the taper plan. Went down to .5 mg of the strips for a while. took none wednesday, took .5 thurs, and nothing today. I plan to take hopefully nothing tomorrow but I also have to be at work and very alert for my job. And I will be running around and sweating a bit. That might actually help. I might take a sliver, sliver of the film for work, but not sure.

suggestions.

Let me know how I can help you. I will be online tomorrow. God bless.

[BWTom]

I've been reading up on this site for a bit now and could really use the help of Robert_325
I'm not sure exactly how to go about this but it's for my husband who is trying to get off suboxene.
We would love to recieve any helpful info.
Thank you so much in advance!

[BWTom]

Hello,
I've been reading this site for some time now and would like the assistance for my husband while he tries to get of his dose of 2 ml of suboxene. He went 1 day without and by the next morning the pain was so bad he ended up taking a pill.
Please Help!

[Bitor2010]

THANK YOU - still dealing with some ramifications of the accident, but should be behind me in a couple weeks and I lost track of how many days off the suboxone - 20 + for sure. I think all the distraction of the accident actually helped. But, was in some pain but only took NSAID's the entire time. Still have some backaches, etc. but so good to be off suboxone. Doc said with my accident I can give you tramadol - I said "no", "no", "no" - I told him I don't care what they say, it is a narcotic and very much like an opiate. Good to hear from you, hope all is well!

Tom

[Bitor2010]

Update - well 21 or 22 or 23, days, not certain suboxone or any other opiate free! My bicycle accident was a nasty one, but I was up front in the ER about my "issues". Everything seems to be healing OK. Face, back pain that seems to be getting much better thank GOD, Ego. The last step is to have a procedure tomorrow to fix the stitching job on my lip - its not that bad, but bad enough where my lower lip on my left hand side does not meet the corner of my mouth. The accident has been hard, but in a strange way, it seems to have hardened my resolve to not take any opiate pain killers. I mean if I HAD too I guess I would as some pain no NSAID can touch, but I was never that bad - took a ton of Motrin layered with Tylenol though! Now with this surgery, I told them NO OPIATES and of course they wanted to give me tramadol - I used to use that when I ran out of pills for heavens sake, I said NO tramadol! Don't believe what they tell you, it IS very much like an opiate and is addictive. Wish me well, God bless all of you and I will report back when I feel up to it.

Tom