[dph10]

Hi guys - it's amazing to see so many stories of people in something near the same place I'm in or was in. But it's not over for me - not quite - and I wanted to tell my story (quickly) and see if anyone had advice for this situation. It might just help me to tell my story - I have great doctors and people who want to help but I feel so alone.

Basically, I'm 29. When I was 25 I had painkillers pushed on me (long story) until I finally bit.. and then ran with it like the pusher never did. I got up to 90-100mg oxy a day for a few months and then went nuts - got suicidal and just in a terrible place realizing I had destroyed so much and couldnt keep it up... and went to a doctor specializing in Suboxone/Subutex. For the past 3 years I have been on Subutex - it was a miracle for me at first. I started at 12mg, quickly dropped to 6mg, held that for 2 years and slowly accidentally creeped back up to 8mg/day. Everything was fine. But something happened to my body - totally unrelated - and I had to schedule major surgery. Now, this seemed like a perfect time to finally stop taking the subutex, because as we know it doesn't exactly gel with the rough parts of real surgery (blocking painkillers, for instance - and having some possible interaction with anaesthesia). It would be a long process with painful wounds afterwards - (let me say now I have no more craving or want of painkillers)- and the only safe thing to do would be to get the bupe out of my system before surgery.

So - armed with a few percocet (prescribed to stop any w/ds that might happen before the surgeons could take over) - I cold turkey stopped taking the subutex (8mg/day) 3 days before surgery. It was amazing. I had not a SINGLE w/d symptom. I went into surgery and came out...

...and there was not enough morphine in the world to stop the coming storm. I held it together for 2 days in the hospital getting 2mg (?) morphine every 2 hours for al 48 hours just to keep me semi-still. The moment I got home I fell into a full blooded opiate withdrawal like I never ever thought I was going to experience in my whole life. I am a writer, smallish, not an angry crazy person.. for three days I was living in 'Trainspotting'. I was hysterically crying the entire time - throwing up, raging (destroying the room), etc... and I couldn't help any of it.

After three days I realized what was going on - that nothing is for free and that I was paying for all of it. I was withdrawing from 3 months of heavy(ish to you guys!) oxycontin abuse... say 80mg/day for 90 days.. on top of 6-8mg/day of subutex for 3 years ... plus 3 days of morphine/dilauded from the hospital. Cold Turkey. The symptoms weren't subsiding at all and I thought I was going to die. So I called my subutex doc and got back on it on a strict taper to 0. Here is where the questions start. --

I halted the w/ds with 8mg of sub- and over 10 days brought 8mg of it directly down to 1mg without A SINGLE SYMPTOM I couldnt handle. It was amazing. I hopped off at 1mg. Everyone cheered for me. Three days later I fell back into major withdrawals - nothing like the three days of H**L, but nothing I could function on. Terrible. I am a very strong person with a very positive outlook but it was wrecking my body... major RLS,etc. So I found my last 8mg pill and started shaving it off - as small as possible. I got to the end and the symptoms weren't going away. So I went back to the doctor. He prescribed 2mg suboxone pills (saying 'everyone is different - for some people the last 1mg is the hardest thing to do')... we spit the 2mg pills into .5mgs and they were taken away from me (people think I cant manage it myself now). Anyway, I took 1mg for 2 more days and then for the past three days I have taken .5mg.

I feel terrible. Again, better than the first blow-out, but marginally better than the second. I need to end this. But I can't get any work done - My legs spasm and I sweat and I'm SO TIRED (I weigh 110 pounds now down from 130 6 weeks ago). I have clonidine, L-whatsitcalled, etc. Bad enough that when I popped back on the bupe I had to deal with the pain of the surgery (head and urinary)- but its been weeks and weeks and I feel like I am beaing beaten for some terrible sin.

My question is - I understand that this part is so hard to stop because my body has been so used to opiate love for so many years (about 4 in total)- and this is the only time I've reduced it from a 90mg/oxy/sub equivalent. But I'm on .5mg.... .5MG! And it's awful! And for the first time in my life the power to take more to be comfortable is gone. Today was actually the worst of the .5 days, and I have to attribute that to the 72 hour halflife of the 1mg dose finally going away. Is that right? So then ... should I keep breaking them down? How much longer on .5mg? Our goal was about 6-7 more days at .5mg stable and then just DONE. Onto clonidine and vitamins.

But - this is so much worse than I ever thought it would be. It's been so long that I look at my body and expect to see bruises from where someone has been hitting me. But it's just me - me against me - and no one else can understand how much it hurts. I just need to hear if someone's been in a situation like this and how much longer I can expect to be stuck in this terrible mud. I believe the drug is a life saver, and for those who say to 'get on and get off' - that doesn't work for someone like me, someone who found a drug of my lifetime. I needed over a year or two on sub just to re-wire my brain to not want painkillers anymore - the real kind - Had I hopped off I would have just relapsed. Now there is really no chance of that. But I did not know it would come with this level of abuse. Maybe I am just that 1% who has 'issues'.... any words would be SO appreciated.

Thank you.

[Araminta]

I didn't want to leave your post unanswered. So, hey, off of the top of my head, it sounds like you need to go back to your Subutex/Suboxone doctor and have your dose increased temporarily so you can taper back down off of it with less agony.

It would be good to know for sure which one you've been taking also: Subutex or Suboxone? Suboxone is the one that contains the opiate agonist (that is, the drug that makes opiates not work). Subutex does not contain this. So, if you had been taking Subutex before surgery, it wouldn't have been necessary for you to stop taking it, because it would not have interfered with the morphine or whatever else they gave you for pain or sedation at the time of the surgery.

If you're not comfortable at the .5 mg. it sounds to me that you'd be better off taking .75 mg or so for a while. I believe it's important to be at a dose where you're somewhat comfortable, stay at that dose for about 4 days, THEN decrease your dose by 25%. Going from 1 mg. to .5 mg. may have been too big of a jump for you. It might have been better to have gone from 1 mg to .75 mg., then when you were adjusted to that and symptom free, gone down to .5 mg.

All I know about this is what I've read on these boards. I have not yet tried Suboxone or Subutex for detox, but it may be in my future.

Best of luck to you, whether you are able to gut out these symtoms or are able to get back on a slower taper. Again, don't go by what I say. I hope Robert, Intelmetal, or anyone else with more actual experience than I comments on your post soon!

Best,

Ara

[peanut30]

I think Ara is right. Wait for Robert or one of the posse with experiene with this. Just hang in there. You might want to re-taper yourself so that you don't go backwards. I know your in pain but hang in there my friend. We are here for you.

[intelmetal]

Ara is right about the reduction amounts. You made a mistake reducing your dose from 1mg to .5mgs, that's painful, OUCH ! Try doing .75mgs for 4-5 days, then reduce to .5mgs and see how that works for you. You need to taper ever so slowly off of the subs. I started skipping days at .25mgs. I skipped this past Friday, took .25mgs on Saturday, skipped Sunday, Monday, and I am supposed to take .25mgs today ( Tuesday ), but am feeling fine so far. I think I am going to skip today just to test myself. It is almost 1:00 P.M. CST and I still feel OK. If I go down hill, I will just go ahead and take my scheduled dose of .25mgs and skip 3 days. Hopefully this is not the case as I kinda feel like I'm done ! I will keep you posted as I progress. ALMOST DONE !
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

P.S. Read my thread " Intelmetal's own thread ", it might help you.

[dph10]

Originally Posted by Araminta

It would be good to know for sure which one you've been taking also: Subutex or Suboxone? Suboxone is the one that contains the opiate agonist (that is, the drug that makes opiates not work). Subutex does not contain this. So, if you had been taking Subutex before surgery, it wouldn't have been necessary for you to stop taking it, because it would not have interfered with the morphine or whatever else they gave you for pain or sedation at the time of the surgery.

If you're not comfortable at the .5 mg. it sounds to me that you'd be better off taking .75 mg or so for a while. I believe it's important to be at a dose where you're somewhat comfortable, stay at that dose for about 4 days, THEN decrease your dose by 25%. Going from 1 mg. to .5 mg. may have been too big of a jump for you. It might have been better to have gone from 1 mg to .75 mg., then when you were adjusted to that and symptom free, gone down to .5 mg.

Hi Ara-

Thank you so much for answering my post. It's been 4-5 days since you wrote, and I've just gotten back to town from a little trip. Sunshine is very helpful. Who knew?!

So - to clarify - I was on subutex for about 3 years, and when I went to 2mg I switched to suboxone. (I dont know if they make a 2mg subutex pill but at this point I just don't want to be ... changing things...). First off, if you are right about subutex not interfering with pain medication - that is certainly one mistake I made. However, I was taking a solid 8mg/sub a day, and at that level even if it didn't interfere, I know that I have one heck of a high tolerance to opiates, and so I didn't want them to have to flood me with them just to have an effect. The problem we ran into was that I wanted to use the surgery as a great event to 'jump off' the subutex (for the first time). The miscalculation was that 3yrs-of-sub+surgery medications+no taper after surgery = absolute 9 levels of Dante's favorite place.

I have to say that right now I am safely on .5mg/day. I jumped from 1 to .5 and it was too much - I had about 4 days of sleepless, upset, drippy, chilly, leg kicking agony ... and then on the 5th day it was gone. However now at .5mg I feel fine for most of the day and then it starts to fall apart in the evening. We moved from .5 to about .3/.25 for a day and I was immediately up at 3am with pretty heavy symptoms! Argh! Even though I want to be comfortable, I need this to be over - and for me that means I cannot really increase the dose. I am still at .5 and we're trying to make the time in between doses longer. I dont know how to split a .5 down further - its already so small.

However, this brings me to an important point about your post and many others...
there is a lot of unintended misinformation on these boards, and I'm afraid some of it has showed up in your posting.

BOTH Subutex AND Suboxone are 'Opiate Agonists' in the sense that they BOTH make opiates not work. That is what Buprenorphine (Bupe) IS ... it is basically a very strong opiate that does hit the opiate receptors (partial agonist and antagonist... partial) but does NOT deliver a 'high' in the traditional sense. Look at it this way (very watered down) - that an opiate ultimately delivers three things to a person:

1. A flood of dopamine resulting in tranquility and a 'HIGH'
2. The stopping of PAIN.
3. Receptors are controlled by the chemical, resulting in a body becoming use to them being renewed by an outside chemical (TOLERANCE)

Now - if you break down (in my experience) - traditional opiates versus Buprenorphine (subutex OR suboxone) you will get these levels measured DIFFERENTLY. That is why we use them for different things.

OXYCODONE (percocet, oxycontin) - the 'gold standard' AKA Control drug:

1: 'the high' - say is an 8/10 (10 being some kind of ecstasy)
2. 'the pain stopping' - is also about an 8/10 (10 being 100% effective)
3. 'the tolerance' - is also an 8/10 - you will develop a tolerance pretty quickly and your receptors will want more of this drug after a few doses (10 being, say, heroin).

Now - look at this strange opiate-agonist, originally invented for pain, called
Buprenorphine:

BUPRENORPHINE (subutex or suboxone) - how is it different from oxy?

1. 'the high' - is very low, say 1/10
2. 'the pain stopping' - is not great - about 3/10
3. 'the tolerance' - its ability to step on the receptors - is high... 10/10 (it is a 10/10 because bupe will (in small doses) stop 100% of the withdrawal from even Heroin, the most addictive opiate.

Buprenorphine is therefore bad at combating PAIN when compared to the same dose of .. say OXY or HYDRO needed to hit the same amount of receptor-controlling. It is also bad at giving you a HIGH. So why would doctors prescribe it? Because it is strong enough at #3 (receptors-tolerance) to HALT the withdrawals from any opiate in small doses. This means that despite it not giving you a high it is a VERY strong drug in small doses. Furthermore, think of it this way - once you are 'wearing' a 10/10 in the tolerance-receptors department, you cannot take an 8/10 and expect it to even be able to take hold. Those receptors are OWNED by Buprenorphine and Oxycontin has no chance unless you bring an army.

What I mean to say is this: if I was on 80-100mg of Oxycodone a day and an 8mg dose of Subutex (or Suboxone) stopped the withdrawals from that, then for 72ish hours from dosing it would take a LOT of Oxy - more than 100mg for SURE - to OVERPOWER the Bupe-in-Sub(utex OR oxone) - and make me 'high'. It might have been possible but it takes severe amounts and you wouldnt want to anyway because the bupe has you under its control saying 'your receptors are taken care of'. I know this is certain because After 1 year on Subutex (at about 4mg/day) I got ahold of 40mg oxycontin pills (before I was 'clean' in the head!)... and took them. One - NOTHING. Two - NOTHING. Three - nothing. It was insane.

The Bupe is that strong. It - in either Subutex or Suboxone form - enters your body, takes charge of the opiate receptors, and therefore blocks all (but VERY extreme amounts) of opiate from breaking through, overpowering it, and making you high OR controlling your pain (as before.. however much of chronic pain is part of the addiction so it will help more than it appears it 'should'). This is why there was a risk with surgery. There is no anasthesiologist (sp?) in the world who wants to be monitoring a patient who needs seriously over-normal amounts of morphine to simply stabilize (during the 72 hour period this amount is VERY VERY high and not comfortable to any doctor to give... after the 72 hour period, as I have learned - it is just ********py for me! Because after 72 hours, the opiates (morphine, etc..) WILL work - but they have to match the subutex dose to hold back withdrawals. Even in an advanced surgery/hospital scenario, it is impossible to explain to the doc that I - a small mid-20s boy - will need the equivalent of something around 80-100mg oxycodone/day JUST to be stable. NO ONE in a non-detox hospital is comfortable doing this. So instead I got 2mg morphine every 2 hours and it was a really awful experience!

Finally - the misconception about suboxone v. subutex - I dont know, you might be right - had I had ANY naloxone (the added ingredient in suboxone) in my body during surgery then possibly the naloxone would have done its job and initiated a painful full board withdrawal upon opiates in my IV. But I don't think so... because:

Suboxone is considered 'Abuse free' ONLY because it has Naloxone added - and therefore the definition for 'abuse free' is that it cannot be crushed, injected, or snorted. When the pill is crushed or injected the naloxone becomes active and puts a world of hurt onto you. But I THINK the naloxone simply goes out of your body if it is not- so if I took it under my tongue, had surgery, the opiates they gave me might have just acted normally since the naloxone is made active by the method of administering ITSELF... and the method was normal.

This does not change its ability to stomp on your receptors - BOTH Subutex and Suboxone are built to do JUST that... but if you crush and inject one of them you will hit a wall. I am not an IV user or a 'snorter' so suboxone wasn't necessary for me. However in the beginning (the first year!!) I believed what you believe above - and thats why I took the oxycontin - because I thought 'I have the right bupe and I can still take a painkiller without it being blocked'. But I was wrong - my body was already being blocked - for a whole year - and the pills did nothing. They weren't strong enough to overpower the effects of the Buprenorphine within the 72 hour half-life period.

Please help stop this myth. Subutex AND Suboxone are both for Opiate patients trying to stop - because of their main ingredient Buprenorphine (which offers partial agonist AND antagonist reactions). IV users should take Suboxone because it will curb their desire to inject it to get high - whereas pill-takers do not need to deal with the Naloxone in Suboxone. I always preferred Subutex because it tasted like a medicine and not 'cherry'... and I want to remember that I am always taking a medicine.

To finally end- I am on .5mg/day. I hurt. I feel stable for most of the day and nights are .... mostly ok ... mornings before the dose suck. I am waiting for that to stabilize more before dropping. I hate that I need to go so slowly, but it seems that my body is going through a major process of learning to live without this large dose in my system. And how do you break down .5mg?

Any corrections to the information above is not just wanted, it is necessary. We need 100% accurate information when dealing with this!

Any replies are so appreciated ... you have no idea. Thank you for brightening my day .

[gettingthere]

dph10: first of all--good job!

I hope this helps.

You said, "and over 10 days brought 8mg of it directly down to 1mg without A SINGLE SYMPTOM I couldnt handle. It was amazing. I hopped off at 1mg." It sounds like you are going too fast.

I know for me I tried to taper too quickly: I went from 12 mg to 8 mg to 4 mg in three days! I thought I was doing pretty good at 4 mg for four days (from high doses of methadone and percs (and previously oxycontin, oxycodone, hydrocodone, and morphine--prescribed for nearly ten years). I tapered down to 3 mg--and stayed there for four days...and it was rough! Yesterday, my fourth day I broke down (and felt so guilty) and added 1 mg--back up to 4 mg. BUT I felt so much better! I was actually functioning, the fatigue had been nearly unbearable but yesterday it was so much better. I guess the point is, you have to listen to your body in a way that anyone that has been taking any opiates for any length of time has gotten out of the habit of doing. (You may have the worst behind you, I don't know...)You have to do what you and your doc think is right for you--and I am by no means an expert. I do know that if you read on this board, do not critize and listen--I mean really listen, you will get the answers and hopefully support you need.

I wish you the best... this is truly the fight of our lives, but right now, for this hour of this day, we are winning!

[gettingthere]

dph10: first of all--good job!

I hope this helps.

You said, "and over 10 days brought 8mg of it directly down to 1mg without A SINGLE SYMPTOM I couldnt handle. It was amazing. I hopped off at 1mg." It sounds like you are going too fast.

I know for me I tried to taper too quickly: I went from 12 mg to 8 mg to 4 mg in three days! I thought I was doing pretty good at 4 mg for four days (from high doses of methadone and percs (and previously oxycontin, oxycodone, hydrocodone, and morphine--prescribed for nearly ten years). I tapered down to 3 mg--and stayed there for four days...and it was rough! Yesterday, my fourth day I broke down (and felt so guilty) and added 1 mg--back up to 4 mg. BUT I felt so much better! I was actually functioning, the fatigue had been nearly unbearable but yesterday it was so much better. I guess the point is, you have to listen to your body in a way that anyone that has been taking any opiates for any length of time has gotten out of the habit of doing. (You may have the worst behind you, I don't know...)You have to do what you and your doc think is right for you (I would listen to the above posts concerning Robert--Just read around on the various threads on this site and you'll get a feel for what he has to say). I do know that if you read on this board and listen--I mean really listen, you will get the answers and hopefully support you need.


I wish you the best... this is truly the fight of our lives, but right now, for this hour of this day, we are winning!

[Robert_325]

dph10 .... Congratulations on your personal success. You can rest assured that the majority of people on this forum giving regular advice on using subutex/suboxone properly know how it works. Don't take a mistake in one post as an indicator that people here don't know how subs work and we need to be enlightened. Any forum will have a person here and there making a mistake.

There are people successsfully tapering off subs here daily after years of abuse following our taper plans. We know how to taper off subs and how to use them correctly. You need to read around the forum before saying that you need to make sure we have the correct information.

You can NOT accurately determine what % of pain relief or anything else that subs provide in comparison to oxy or hydrocodone. That is strictly your experience and those numbers will vary from one person to the next. God bless.

[coyotegulch]

Just wanted to add my experience.
I have been on Sub for almost exactly 2 years. My Dr. is one of the best people I've ever met and he kept me on for so long because of my extremely addictive nature and history. Luckily for me my insurance paid for most of it.
I did a fairly prolonged taper and just finished by last .5 mg 4 days ago. WDs are not bad at all. Fatigue and leg creepies at night are about the worst of it. Some sneezes and a bit of yawning too. I've been extremely active (hikes and cycling) for the last 6 months and I really think that has helped. I've read other posts that advice exercise and I can say that it has helped me dramatically. I've been waking up after 4 or 5 hours of sleep and have found that hot baths are good for the leg issues. Just get up and move around.
I know that I probably won't feel good for another week or so, but that's OK. I just keep thinking about being free of drugs. I think about how happy my mother would be if she were still alive. I think about life.
Read Eckhart Tolle, it helps.

[dph10]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

dph10 .... Congratulations on your personal success. You can rest assured that the majority of people on this forum giving regular advice on using subutex/suboxone properly know how it works. Don't take a mistake in one post as an indicator that people here don't know how subs work and we need to be enlightened. Any forum will have a person here and there making a mistake.

There are people successsfully tapering off subs here daily after years of abuse following our taper plans. We know how to taper off subs and how to use them correctly. You need to read around the forum before saying that you need to make sure we have the correct information.

You can NOT accurately determine what % of pain relief or anything else that subs provide in comparison to oxy or hydrocodone. That is strictly your experience and those numbers will vary from one person to the next. God bless.

Hi Robert -

I understand that you're the grand poobah around here, but we had no contact at all. I wrote what was a long but clarifying post replying to the misconception that was written in response to my post. I didn't attack you, I didn't address you or any of the other 'pros' because I assume you know the full spectrum of information on this complicated drug. I simply responded to the people responding to me, and to other posts I've read that have either been or not been corrected. I am sorry if it came off like I was attacking you, but it had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with tapering! I see that you offer a great deal of help and support to people tapering, but that's just one aspect of this drug and its very mechanism of delivery is something many of them don't understand even though they are doing a proper taper. As I wrote in my post, I didn't even understand for a year - thinking I could take oxy one day while keeping my subutex dose going simply because it was not suboxone. Not true...

In any case, what you do here is wonderful for people and so very needed and helpful - but do not take one mistake in a post as a reason to NOT enlighten people about how complicated this drug actually is. You read that post as if I was speaking to you but it had nothing to do with you - it was about the misinformation in the post itself and others on here that might or might not get cleared up. Different ways of interpreting facts to better explain them to people who might silently not be listening sometimes is not a bad thing and this is not a dictatorship.

In any case, if anyone was following for some reason - I followed this course:

- 1 week on 1mg
- 6 days on .5mg
- 5 days on .25mg
- 1 day on 0mg
- 1 day on .25mg
- 3 days on 0mg
- TODAY.

I am very afraid. I have energy and high hopes for parts of the day but they are so fleeting. I am in a very high stress and high powered job and am starting to realize that although I was 'floating' through it for the past 3 years, I'm losing my liferaft for 6months-2years possibly.

I can feel the full blown symptoms going away, but the restlessness and FATIGUE has set in and seems to want to stay. The more research I do on this, the more I realize just how hurt my receptors are. I was on bupe for nearly 1,200 days - I finally did the calculation and saw that terrifying number. Clearly I am in the last category - the one that expects bad/no sleep for months (or years) as well as fatigue. Many accounts have gone on to state that even supplements and vitamins have little/no effect for the next few months because the receptors have been so rewritten by the sub- moreso than the oxy would have (the half life was at least giving them a chance to breathe and open before being medicated- but the sub just never left for 1,200 days.)

I guess I would LOVE to hear from people in similar situations or those further down the road. I have read some threads of people's success stories, but I know there is a huge difference between taking subutex/suboxone for 10 days - 30 days - 60 days .... and ... 1,200 days.

People are excited for me when they see me happy and alive - but those moments have come from tapering down - even taking .25mg I was 'alive'. What I fear now is that they expect things to start getting better ... something I desperately want - but I want to know the reality of it as well and what - if anything- I can do to get those receptors firing as fast as possible.

I have taken the stimulant Vyvanse for ADD/HD issues, which is like a non-abusable adderall (metabolizes after digestion) - but the combo of 'no-bupe-world' and the vyvanse produces not a stimulated energetic feeling in my body and brain but ... it feels like it is doing its job but the focus/energy/stimulation stays in my stomach! It's an odd unsettling feeling so I haven't been taking it much.

I'm really just wondering - from all of those sub success stories after long term use of it - .... does it really get better? And how can you best describe when/how that starts to happen? I wish I had 'good days' and 'bad days' but right now I seem to have 'bad days' with 'good moments' and 'no sleep'... and the data I have found in several places online points to that happening for many months (min. 6 max... 2 years) to come. That is a very scary prospect and I wonder if I should consider getting back on anti-depressants while it happens (or if they affect dopamine/seratonin) in ways that negate the purpose.

When I met my current boyfriend, I was taking 300mg wellbutrin, 8mg subutex, and 30-60mg vyvanse per day, and that was me 'clean'. I was ok on the outside but on the inside I thought 'Who is the real me? I forget.'... So I stopped the wellbutrin cold turkey - no problems. I can stop the vyvanse too - aready basically have. And I have now spent 60 days tapering the subutex to 0 in my system.

I already feel like I have been beaten for 2 months. The idea of 6 more months to 2 years of fatigue and no sleep is... it puts a crack in my foundation I guess.

To summarize: Thank you for listening - Robert I was not criticizing you when I clarified what I initially didnt understand about bupe so please don't jump down my throat- I have great respect for you here helping people but information is not a bad thing ever (unless it is wrong) - and my subjective (yes, it is subjective) scale of putting these drugs into 'pain' 'pleasure' and 'receptor control' is something that could be useful for someone.

[Robert_325]

There are lots of success stories with people showing up here with three years and longer sub histories. Had some over six years from when it was first really available in the States. They have had success getting off reducing by 25% of the dose every 4-7 days in most cases with long using histories. Normally it's only 3-4 days at each level down the taper. Seems you dropped pretty quickly to me but more power to you if it's working for you. God bless.

[purpledog]

dph10 get a grip. chill out pal.
1200 days, jeez if i counted all my days on methadone, hmmm, let me count roughly, um 4000 days, and then all the morphine before then, um 10 years, at 365 days, ok do you get it.
then my latest habit on more methadone um 3 years, nearly another 1000, so all together um 9 or 10 thousand. ok. so i can assure you that you are not gonna suffer for 6 months to 2 years.
where did you hear that bollocks.? i did a hard cold turkey off methadone in 2001 and for 8 weeks i never slept, that was without weaning down properly. so no reason why you should go longer than that for suffering. i doubt it.
mate, good on you for getting down, but if you took 1200 days to do it why hurry up and do the last bit really fast.thats crazy. no wonder you feel so anxious about things.
my personal opinion of course, this information or misinformation is entireley the opinion of myself, kiwi purpledog, and is not intended to represent the people on this forum.
heh heh
good on ya tho, take it easy
purple

[dph10]

Thanks for that, purple dog.

http://opiatedetoxrecovery.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7538

Is where I got the information about long term bupe use leading to long term PAWS (Post acute withdrawal symptoms) that are what I'm talking about. The duration seems to be a bupe/subutex/suboxone issue because this drug is so comprehensive about covering your receptors.

I can say that I took about 50-60 days to taper down and don't think that I was rushing it - yes, I rushed at times but pretty much hopped back on where I stopped and so the taper was clear the whole way.

I've been off of it now for 6 days and my symptoms are only this crazy fatigue, sleeplessness, and emotional drain - I just don't care about anything. That's what my post was about - I'm just wondering if any other long term sub users have any info or stories about the period after withdrawals are over.

Congrats on having 20 years of drug abuse. 1,200 days was enough for me and I am not proud of it.

Originally Posted by purpledog

dph10 get a grip. chill out pal.
1200 days, jeez if i counted all my days on methadone, hmmm, let me count roughly, um 4000 days, and then all the morphine before then, um 10 years, at 365 days, ok do you get it.
then my latest habit on more methadone um 3 years, nearly another 1000, so all together um 9 or 10 thousand. ok. so i can assure you that you are not gonna suffer for 6 months to 2 years.
where did you hear that bollocks.? i did a hard cold turkey off methadone in 2001 and for 8 weeks i never slept, that was without weaning down properly. so no reason why you should go longer than that for suffering. i doubt it.
mate, good on you for getting down, but if you took 1200 days to do it why hurry up and do the last bit really fast.thats crazy. no wonder you feel so anxious about things.
my personal opinion of course, this information or misinformation is entireley the opinion of myself, kiwi purpledog, and is not intended to represent the people on this forum.
heh heh
good on ya tho, take it easy
purple