Dear Friends, need prayers

[cryin out]

I have been going to Celebrate Recovery for a few months, to worship only, just because I was not sure I truly was in a safe environment, and I was not sure where to work through the pill addiction. So I made an appt with the CR pastor and shared my struggle, and I found out a few days before our appt where the substance group was held and commited to going to that. I have only been to counsel once and to group once. I was very excited to finally accept my problem and get out of denial. For a long time I was in denial because I was not so sure I should accept the term of addict. It almost seemed to me like a label of something I should not be. But those of you that know CR principle 1 is definately the way I feel, I am unmanageable. If I have pills I take them, then spend all my money on what I can get until refill. This month a family member had surgery. I bought her first 3 scripts and could not buy her anymore, so I gave her out of my pills, but I have not received what I have given away to her back yet.

I am suffering from anxiety and sadness right now. For one reason, of course the fear of w/d. Usually I can not move over a week and I still have the pain that causes me to be seen as a chronic pain patient.
My hope was that I would have enough CR time to make friends and gather support so that when I am stronger I could have that in my life. I have been staying with my ex husband, but found out early on he is not a good support for me in this matter. So I keep all my struggle to myself, except that I have counsel again tomorrow and if I can manage to stay out of w/d I will make it to group on Friday.

If I do not get my pills back I will be in w/d Friday or Saturday sometime. I have my stepdaughter coming to visit on Monday for the holiday, and of course Christmas. I do not see how I can manage to endure this going through w/d. When I have previously detoxed it was by choice and I stayed as busy as possible but really dont do physcally well, in fact the last detox I could not stand for days.

I remember Metal Duck saying why are people afraid to withdraw? a few weeks back and I laughed. Is it saying goodbye to the pills, or the experience of the unknown during withdraw since we never really know what we will experience. I dont get diarrhea, go figure.
In some ways it seems I am feeling sorry for myself. Well, I possibly am. I also have some expectations that I am going to fail at if w/d occurs now. But then, if not now, when? In a few weeks? Well in my mind, a few weeks would be better only because the holiday will be over....lol and maybe would have developed a support and some friends (although I know I have the board here thank you all)
My pastor said last week he wants me to detox by tapering with my doctor and I smiled and said ok, but inside I knew that may not be possible. And now, it is not. I cannot go to my doctor because he said if I ran out early and came to him he would cease our medical relationship and also be sure word got out in the local area that I misued my pills so that I would not get them in my state. So no, I cannot go to him.

I am sure so many can relate to these feelings, in fact so many successful people this week that were in this emotional state last week. At least I have more hope, but am I ready? I think this is what scares me most.

[Robert_325]

Welcome to the world of addiction. It's a hell of a place to try and live. It's full of fear, self-loathing, anger, all the bad emotions and feelings that exist.

You could wait until after Christmas if you're going to cave in doing it now. You need to start when you're ready to make a commitment. Celebrate Recovery is a great recovery program by the way and I highly suggest getting really involved there.

I will be here, been here for years. When you are ready I will gladly help you but you need to be ready to make the commitment to stick it out and it doesn't sound to me as if you are ready or able before Christmas with your plans. Keep me posted. You'll be in my prayers. God bless.

[cryin out]

Robert, we are so grateful for you. I have been cryin out to the Lord for 2 days now just now sure what I am going to do. And one minute I am calm and trust and the next minute I am a case just knowing what lies ahead with my hostessing responsibilities, grandbabies, holiday, oh gosh. I dont want to be the one to ruin it all much less drop the ball when i am suppose to be the one holding it all together.
Maybe I can get my pills back and then it gives me all this behind so I can press forward. Regardless, I will be here when it happens, whether in 2 days or 2012

[sookie3]

Robert, we are so grateful for you. I have been cryin out to the Lord for 2 days now just now sure what I am going to do. And one minute I am calm and trust and the next minute I am a case just knowing what lies ahead with my hostessing responsibilities, grandbabies, holiday, oh gosh. I dont want to be the one to ruin it all much less drop the ball when i am suppose to be the one holding it all together.
Maybe I can get my pills back and then it gives me all this behind so I can press forward. Regardless, I will be here when it happens, whether in 2 days or 2012

Cryin out I agree with everything that Robert has said.
And I also know the torment your going through it was something I wrestled with for many years.
One thing I do know is that thinking and worrying about it constantly makes the anxiety worse. If you can try to keep busy as much as your body will allow do it. I'm weaning off Subs at the moment and keeping busy helps ,me, along with all the fabulous support from this forum.
Keeping your mind occupied with other things is a big part to getting clean and as Robert said 'You've also got to want it'
I hope whatever you decide or whatever happens you have a smooth, happy and healthy christmas. I'm always floating around off and on the forum at the moment if you need some support..
Best wishes, Sookie

[ClassiqueMom]

cryin' out..

i don't have personal experience to know what you
are going through.. (except second-hand)

my heart goes out to you..
and my prayers will keep you close in heart
and before the throne of grace....

take care of yourself, physically, emotionally and
spiritually..

be strong.. and of good courage..

*gentle hug*

Classique MoM

[cryin out]

Thank you . So much. In truth I do want it, but it is the timing. I am holding the stories I have read here for months in my heart as only time will tell. If I get what I need then I will make it until the holidays are over and if I dont get what I need then it will be what it is. Yeah, Sookie, the anxiety makes it so much worse, and I am going to work on that. Classique, thanks for showing up when I am cryin out on these boards

[Catrina]

Hi Crying,

We all know what you're feeling right now. On the one hand you are soooo ready to start this journey and get on with it! On the other hand, (if your family is anything like mine) you are apt to be under scrutiny without an twit of compassion, "after all, we did this to ourselves!". OK Right,. That doesn't change a thing. In the beginning, for me, I found most any excuse not to give up my pills...I had to work, I had to babysit the grandkids, I had company comming, etc., etc. etc. Then I found these boards and suddenly the one thing that changed in my head is that I got excited...beging clean was possible and I wasn't going to let anything or anyone get in my way! First, though you have to get though all the rest of that junk and there will be the day (hopefully by choice) that you will make up your mind that you have simply had enough and it's now or never. It'll happen you're already on your way. I can't wait for that day to come for you. We're here waiting and storing up love and understanding for up. My biggest wish for you is to get rid of the fear! It's the one thing that had me relapsing time and time again. Suddenly I realized that c/t was only a week and then I'd have the rest of my life to face bravely and proudly!

Peace,

Cat

[MetalDuckMFC]

First of all, I'd like to say welcome to the forums.

What I meant when I asked why so many people are afraid of withdrawal, I was implying this physical detox. Any pill addict knows EXACTLY what is going to happen when they run out of pills. And running out is a certainty. Maybe not this week, but you simply will not ALWAYS have your drug of choice.

Now, the anxiety, and mental turmoil that comes with the process is a different story. Worrying about how you'll live without them, worried about not really being yourself. These are legitimate fears. And completely normal. But, what you NEED to realize, and believe, is that 100% of the people that get clean, and remain clean, eventually become themselves again. Could take 2 weeks, could take 6 months. But it is going to happen. So try to brush those fears away.

Also, if it helps at a, you're on a relatively low dose of a relatively weak opiate, compared to a lot of us, like Robert, and I. I k ow Robert was using ungodly amounts of oxycontin daily, and I was up to about 10 oxy 30mg a day, along with Norco, percocet, Opana, whatever I could get my hands on. Your process will be shorter lived, and much more mild.

And you can wai until after the holidays, or you could do it right now, and be about 80% of the way back to being normal by Christmas. Yeah, this next week would be rough, but we're all here for you.

I wish you the very best of luck. I will check on this thread every chance I get. Talking this all out really does help.

God bless.
-Bobby

[MetalDuckMFC]

My apologies. You are not a new member. I didn't pay attention to the name of the poster. Stupid iPod Touch, hahaha.

Well, crying out.... You know what needs to be done, and only you can make the decisions to do it. I know you're strong, even though you deny it. You WILL get through this.

[cryin out]

Oh no worries, metal duck, it is totally ok. To be honest, I am dealing with alot of emotion today. And my body hurts, which is trying to scare me about if I must c/t but I often think it is the norco that messes with ya and causes other pains. Thanks, if I have to ride this storm, I will be here writing and cryin out of course, but hopefully in a good way. I am so tired of this life.

[TexasGirlKatie]

Cryin out....how are you feeling today??

Big hugs!
Katie

[cryin out]

Hi Katie, well late last night something came through to get me through a couple days, then we shall see. I can honestly say between now and 3 weeks will be my time. If I can get through with enough until my family leaves, that is what I want only because of the holidays and what I need to do to bless them, BUT there is always that chance I wont have enough. So I am keeping my heart in check and close to the w/d side knowing it may happen when family is here and I just need to do the best I can. I really need you guys. Last time I c/t I posted here and a mod moved it and I was completely disconnected from The people here who I know and needed. I was so sad when that happened.
So, shall I keep this post going when the time comes. I had a hard time last time, jsut could not even move for almost a week, it was wierd. And it could have been that someone was staying here that kept offering me a little methadone, and told me it would help just enough, and of course I could get up for a short period of time and make dinner or laundry then slam back down. This is not anything I would have thought to on my own, but was a suggestion from someone who had a bad problem that tapered way down, so I kind of trusted it. I almost wonder if that is why it was as bad, but I dont know.
Either way, I know what is coming, mustering up courage, going to CR tonite and going to tell them what my plans are as well in group. But please guys, more than anything, I need you all that have done this to be here, just to know you are there and can read my thread when I am havign a hard time helps. I dont want it moved....
Katie thanks bunches for checking in. So proud of you I tell ya. I shared your story with another opiate addict last night. Because you really are amazing and you tackled this head on with alot of grace.
love to you all, it may be in two days, or two weeks but its coming, and as Catrina has said before, I am focusing on the exciting part. When she quit she was excited finally, and I am weary at this point and to be free is exciting. Please guys, stick with me. Exciting or not, I still get scared of the unknown too.
Katie, how is smoking going, you kind jumped in with both feet with everything. How is that going for you? I chew nicotine gum, after doing really well quitting, then going through a bad time, I decided on gum. I still have that addiciton now to contend with as well.

[azul diablo]

Just wanted to point something out, if you had started your detox the day you started this thread you would be finishing up on Sunday and would have had another whole week to recover for the holidays. There is no perfect time, there never will be. I was upwards of 250mgs of ox a day and did the CT route and didn't miss a day of work. It can be done, you just have to actually want it. Right now you're just prolonging the inevitable....

Good luck!

[cryin out]

I hear ya Azul, I think I am really afraid of not being able to move again for a week. Grandkids come tomorrow, stepdaughter comes monday and it is a panicy feeling to have no control over your body, much less be the one to caretake plus my own 3 kids. I dont know how you guys worked through your w/d but man, that takes real strength. I did not know you worked through it Azul, but know a few that were able to. Amazing to me. But yeah. We will see how I feel tonite. To be honest a few times today I thought of just getting rid of the pills and just being sick, but my grandkids are a handful. Your right, more excuses. But in my mind, I wont be up and about until next weekend possibly, if it goes down like last time.

[cryin out]

I burst into tears tonite, because yes, no matter what or when it is inevitable and I am putting it off. Fear, worry, expectations....I may be doing this weekend now because coming through Christmas clean is a great thought and starting 2012 even better.
I have one issue of concern maybe someone has dealt with. I tend to wake up at night with mouth pain, like my jaw hurts somethign fierce. I may be grinding my teeth together all day because I catch myself sometimes and I chew nicotine gum. The pain It moves around, 1 day on one side, another day totally different area, and I am pretty sure it is related to my pill use as I have seen other pill people have mouth problems that were not dental reasons. I am down to my last 4 peices of gum and not buying anymore, but I am concerned about the night pain that wakes me. Maybe some miracle will occur that I wont...lol but I would deal with it best as I could and often had to break up a bit of pill to get some sleep. Is detox not going to happen if I had to take 1/4-1/2 norco in the night to get on top of pain? I could give the few I have left to a family member for night use only, but I dont want to NOT get off the meds if that would disregulate the process. And I promise this is not an excuse to use, in fact is like one of the hugest fears of the detox is dealing with that. I have tried everything, even taking 800 mg of nsaids before bed and I also use heat, which helps some but not enough for me to sleep.
Anyway, even if nobody has good suggestions, please if you feel lead, keep checking on my thread, adn please mods do not move it (please, please, how i need the support of the people that frequent this area in particular right now)

[TexasGirlKatie]

I burst into tears tonite, because yes, no matter what or when it is inevitable and I am putting it off. Fear, worry, expectations....I may be doing this weekend now because coming through Christmas clean is a great thought and starting 2012 even better.
I have one issue of concern maybe someone has dealt with. I tend to wake up at night with mouth pain, like my jaw hurts somethign fierce. I may be grinding my teeth together all day because I catch myself sometimes and I chew nicotine gum. The pain It moves around, 1 day on one side, another day totally different area, and I am pretty sure it is related to my pill use as I have seen other pill people have mouth problems that were not dental reasons. I am down to my last 4 peices of gum and not buying anymore, but I am concerned about the night pain that wakes me. Maybe some miracle will occur that I wont...lol but I would deal with it best as I could and often had to break up a bit of pill to get some sleep. Is detox not going to happen if I had to take 1/4-1/2 norco in the night to get on top of pain? I could give the few I have left to a family member for night use only, but I dont want to NOT get off the meds if that would disregulate the process. And I promise this is not an excuse to use, in fact is like one of the hugest fears of the detox is dealing with that. I have tried everything, even taking 800 mg of nsaids before bed and I also use heat, which helps some but not enough for me to sleep.
Anyway, even if nobody has good suggestions, please if you feel lead, keep checking on my thread, adn please mods do not move it (please, please, how i need the support of the people that frequent this area in particular right now)

I would NOT risk taking a half or any of a pill. We all know what that can lead to....not worth it girl! You deserve better than that! Instead of simply masking the symptoms, let's focus on fixing the problem at hand

Grinding of the teeth is usually attributed to stress and bring tense. Exertion of the muscles will put you into a deeper, more solid sleep. Try working out, but not too close to bedtime.

Valerian Root (can be found at Walmart, Walgreens etc) helps relax you, and I believe would really help!

If those aren't working, they DO make one-size-fits-most mouth guards for this.

Focusing on relaxation and some meditation right before bedtime should help.

Go into these trials with positive thought, and you'd be surprised at how much it'll help!

[TexasGirlKatie]

Just saw your previous reply. You are so sweet!

About the smoking, that habits been gone! I actually quit in february, and picked it up again for about two weeks! I had completely forgotten that I started again for a second! It was the perfect time to quit again, because my body hadn't developed a full blown addiction to it again. And I really actually hate smoking and the smell and everything! I don't miss it at all!

Look into the E cigarettes! You can taper the nicotine intake and they WORK WONDERS!

You are strong and you have the soul of a survivor, I can see it! You got this!!!

Here for you all of the way!

[cryin out]

Thank you sweetie, last night I was up all night with that night pain I was saying so I did take a little to sleep. Also took my gabapentin and been creashin off and on since 6 am. So this is kinda day 1, I did have nite but so small. I have tried all the above excpet the meditation. I think the hydro makes me do it so when I finally get off it, I hope that is a habit undone as well. I am going to tell my family I am sick, despite grandkids here and stepdaughter coming. Even that little bit last nite, already my tummy is upset and all so not feeling real great ya know, but not in the throws of any w/d for sure. Going to lay with my little girl now and visit with her. Love to you all

[cryin out]

After getting some counsel on my pain problem, I am tapering the next couple days while we work on clearing up some issues of sinus congestion in my head. This is what is beleived to be causing much of my face pain, but it is unbearable. I never realized how bad during the day because I was medicated, but today I found out. So it is a taper today, maybe tomorrow, while we work on this with herbs and massage, and with the taper I am blowing my nose more naturally with the drainage that comes in w/d. That is the update, people. I pray to be out of pain enough to move forward, but at least had a decent day with the grandbabes.

[Robert_325]

Sinus infection can cause headaches along with the opiate taper. Get some excedrin migraine. Works great for headaches. As Katie suggested Valerian Root or Kava either one can help with anxiety from the taper. Hang in there. God bless.

[ClassiqueMom]

hi cryin' out..

my fil had a sinus infection for 6 months.. no help from all kind of antibiotics..

i search earth clinic and found a recipe that people claim does wonders..
he tried it.. and called and said, when can i do it again.. because it worked for him too!

make a cup of tea..
add 2 - 3 tbsp apple cider vinegar
a tablespoon of honey
and squirt of lemon..

i so hope that helps you!
and absolutely hope the mods leave this here.. (ya just never know)

just incase there's a reason it must be removed, just search earth clinic for
sinus infection ..

prayers are continuing for you!
Classique MoM

[cryin out]

Yeah I did that drink Classique Great minds think alike, and I got that excedrin you recommended, Robert. At least I hope that is what they brought home. I better check Thanks for helping me go into battle. Oh I always do kava and valerian and have them on hand always, but definately through detox. When I say taper, Just enough to take the pain edge off enough so I can interact without crying around the grandbabes...lol I have never been this low. I hope it helps with W/d too. I was encouraged that it may but I know we all gotta go through them. Stepdaughter comes tomorrow and I am nervous and hoping I can be fairly normal like some have made it through. Love to you all

[cryin out]

I keep having moments of feeling like I am going to break down and sob away. Been crying at lots of things, but that anxiety feeling coming through often, even with a little medicine in my body. That is kinda hard feeling this way

[ClassiqueMom]

cryin' out..

something i read long ago..

crying doesn't indicate that you're weak..

since birth --- it has always been a sign that you're alive !
-----------

just a little push from behind to keep you going in the right direction..
y o u -- c a n -- d o -- t h i s !!!

.. sooooo ..

d o -- i t !

[cryin out]

still on taper plan, doing well there, face swelling is coming down. Just updating, I feel a bit cranky with these grandbabies to be honest, and stepdaughter wont e in until tonite now. I am still a bit scared of withdrawal of course with all of this in my home, but I will be on the boards checking alot. I have been reading these boards like mad on quiet times so I can build myself up

[TexasGirlKatie]

I love ClassiqueMom's quote....I have one I thought I'd add:

Tears are just pain LEAVING the body....Cry your eyes out! ITS OKAY!

And you can do this!!!! Don't be scared....you look this thing right in the face and tell it to GET LOST!

Facing fear is usually the hardest part of whatever endeavor you are taking on.

You got this!

[ClassiqueMom]

how are ya doin'?, cryin out?

still praying for you..
please know you can be strong

Classique MoM

[cryin out]

Had family in town so forgive my lack of update, thanks for checking in. I was doing good keeping small doses while my kids were here. Then some people came with lots of temptation and I blew it for a couple days. I can tell my body does not want little doses now. Family will be gone Tuesday and I am trying to decide what to do now. I have pain again from little amounts of hydro, that part has always been what drives me back. I also had some test results Thursday and I am in adrenal insufficiency and waiting for new meds for that. Could be why detox knocks me on my tail for over a week instead of 4-5 days. Still praying on keep tapering and see how little my body will take before pain kicks in then work from there on finding something to work through my pain, an excercise or something. OTC combos do not eliminate the pain. Or should I just suffer bad for awhile. I know the adrenal thing will take some time to heal itself with supplements and hormone therapy. But excuses will always be there. I am still here though. Dealing with sadness, as my ex husband whom I live with really ruined Christmas, we are never valuable enough for him to make us feel good on holidays. I am about done with this too and I know the hydro numbs my pain emotionally. Oh boy, to feel it all for real...eek. That is why I had the setback this holiday when it was around, I was dealing with sadness and trying to give the kids a good time as best I could.

[cryin out]

This is such a hard time, people. I moved back with my ex husband while I was super sick and lost a ton of weight because for weeks could not keep anything down. Was so afraid that as a single mom, if I were hospitalized what would happen to my kids. Now 4 months I have been staying with my ex after a 3 year separation and it has been so hard here. He is good at getting the kids off in the morning, but some days I do not know how we will buy food, and he wants to control everything based on his Christian beleifs that are really legalistic. One of my kids is acting really wierd like he is. I jsut need to get this off my chest. I have so much going on, it is so tough, and I deserve better, and my ex owes me alot of money. Even with his CR experience, he told more people than I even know that I was have been wanting to get off pain medication. I could always tell when he would tell a new person because he would run into the house after church and tell me strange things like, I would have to go to a hospital to get off these meds (hydros) I would laugh because I have this forum to learn and ask for help and have seen people home detox time and time again. I wonder if my pain is worse because it sucks being here. I am still in my mind working on the tapering and seeing how I can work through the pain issue, while I mend the adrenal insufficiency dx. I know this will all take time to heal (if that pain issue can be healed) I want to continue CR, but really have had to be as anonymous as possible. I do not tell my ex what group I go to and now I need to not visit with people in that group in his presence or he will eventually figure it out and tell people in his other church and it could cause much problem for me. Oh my gosh, this post probably makes no sense, except that I have life changing decisions to make here, and my pain med use is something I do not want to do, because it is days like today when I hide my pain in my script, not just for physical pain if that makes sense. I got yelled at because our last night with family so I rented a couple comedies, making sure they were PG. The one mentioned divorce and he pulled the movie out and started yelling at my daughter and I that we choose inappropriate movies to watch with children, then my son, yells at me stating I am poisoning his mind, or something to that effect. This son is 11. I have not even rented any movies in the 4 months I am here, I have always tried to be careful what I have my children see, I dont even have cable. I am just one of those careful moms. I am finding I have alot of hurt that I try to hide in these pills, not just my physical. I made a huge mistake coming back here. I even may stop counseling with the CR pastor because my family pointed out a very important point. The CR pastor does not know how my ex is when not in church, and they were friends a year before I came back. My family wants to be sure I am getting fair counsel that will help me succeed and that it is probably already bias. I am so sad tonite. I cannot stop working toward my goals because I am overwhelmed with this trouble. My family will be going tomorrow-I need to get refocused on getting off, or at least tapering good again. I hate that pain is such a problem in my pelvis as I can hardly support my body when that pain comes. If I could identify something to help, I would feel more positive that I can stay off even if go ahead and detox. Forgive me banter, I am really hurting because I made such a bad decision based on fear of my illness.

[Denny_D]

This is such a hard time, people. I moved back with my ex husband while I was super sick and lost a ton of weight because for weeks could not keep anything down. Was so afraid that as a single mom, if I were hospitalized what would happen to my kids. Now 4 months I have been staying with my ex after a 3 year separation and it has been so hard here. He is good at getting the kids off in the morning, but some days I do not know how we will buy food, and he wants to control everything based on his Christian beleifs that are really legalistic. One of my kids is acting really wierd like he is. I jsut need to get this off my chest. I have so much going on, it is so tough, and I deserve better, and my ex owes me alot of money. Even with his CR experience, he told more people than I even know that I was have been wanting to get off pain medication. I could always tell when he would tell a new person because he would run into the house after church and tell me strange things like, I would have to go to a hospital to get off these meds (hydros) I would laugh because I have this forum to learn and ask for help and have seen people home detox time and time again. I wonder if my pain is worse because it sucks being here. I am still in my mind working on the tapering and seeing how I can work through the pain issue, while I mend the adrenal insufficiency dx. I know this will all take time to heal (if that pain issue can be healed) I want to continue CR, but really have had to be as anonymous as possible. I do not tell my ex what group I go to and now I need to not visit with people in that group in his presence or he will eventually figure it out and tell people in his other church and it could cause much problem for me. Oh my gosh, this post probably makes no sense, except that I have life changing decisions to make here, and my pain med use is something I do not want to do, because it is days like today when I hide my pain in my script, not just for physical pain if that makes sense. I got yelled at because our last night with family so I rented a couple comedies, making sure they were PG. The one mentioned divorce and he pulled the movie out and started yelling at my daughter and I that we choose inappropriate movies to watch with children, then my son, yells at me stating I am poisoning his mind, or something to that effect. This son is 11. I have not even rented any movies in the 4 months I am here, I have always tried to be careful what I have my children see, I dont even have cable. I am just one of those careful moms. I am finding I have alot of hurt that I try to hide in these pills, not just my physical. I made a huge mistake coming back here. I even may stop counseling with the CR pastor because my family pointed out a very important point. The CR pastor does not know how my ex is when not in church, and they were friends a year before I came back. My family wants to be sure I am getting fair counsel that will help me succeed and that it is probably already bias. I am so sad tonite. I cannot stop working toward my goals because I am overwhelmed with this trouble. My family will be going tomorrow-I need to get refocused on getting off, or at least tapering good again. I hate that pain is such a problem in my pelvis as I can hardly support my body when that pain comes. If I could identify something to help, I would feel more positive that I can stay off even if go ahead and detox. Forgive me banter, I am really hurting because I made such a bad decision based on fear of my illness.

Cryin Out ..... I just wanted you to know that I am here and listening to you speak to "us" tonight! So say what you will and if I have anything to add I will post to you.

Just wanted you to know that you are not alone tonight! God Bless.....Denny