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Can u take different SAO's help sub withdrawals
  1. #1
    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    Default Can u take different SAO's help sub withdrawals

    I have codeine, dihydrocodeine, tramdol and benzos. Am wondering if I took each every week or so would that help me with subutex withdrawals? dont get me wrong I dont need them yet. Am on 0.8mg of Subutex. Some of you may know I've been on this Opiod for nearly 6 years. I've read where people have some success with Short Acting Opiates while weaning off Sub.

    My plan was to go to 0.2mg, do the skipping days routine and then take the SAO's I mentioned. For instance take Tramadol for 1 week, then Dihydrocodeine and then Codeine for the last week or last 2 weeks. After that use lofexidine/clonidine to help with any withdrawals from the SAOs. Can this work? surely being on SAOs can give you some time-frame for the bup withdrawals to come out of your system? again I stress this is only if needed to be. Having been on Bup for nearly 6 years I think it can be helpful to have this sort of plan place, no?

  2. #2
    cowildflower is offline Member
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    Default Same idea but. . .

    hi tech-
    I asked a similar question yesterday. I have tramadol and thought switching over to it when I get lower on subs and am ready to get off. The warnings I received are:

    Serious risk of falling back into the same addiction trap. Since subs don't really produce the high euphoria other opiates do, there is a strong chance that we will love it and won't be able to stop again. Same boat, just further upstream!

    Also, the idea of switching around drugs just didn't sound like a good idea to most people that answered my post.

    If you want to read their posts check out my thread that says something like " need suggestions " Pretty sad I can't even remember exactly what my own thread starts with!! LOL

    Anyways, good luck with everything and keep posting. We can figure it out.

    Peace
    Flower

  3. #3
    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    Hi Cowid man. Yes I've been warned about that. But at the same time I've read where folks had success. If you can control your SAO''s and take them only to cave off withdrawals, and keep it to a minimum then shouldnt that be ok? considering you will take different SAO each week or 2 weeks up to a month? surely it can make u a tad comfortable until some if not most sub comes out from your system? like I said if u got the mentallity and will-power not to get addicted or swtich addictions then it can seem worth-while, no? if one is going to go back to addiction or have that fear then is there any use coming off sub or meth in the first place?....I know myself, I've changed my thinking of addiction, I sorted whatever I could, yes it's a risk but if it done well then it can work for you, no? I think some people don't want folks doing that because it will make them isolated in coming to boards as people would have figured out a way to beat sub withdrawals, maybe they feel they wont be able to give their input? maybe they feel this board is part of their life and they want folks to do it their way or no way? I dont know but if many people are saying it has helped them surely there is something to it? oh well.

  4. #4
    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    Anybody else have any say in this?....

    As for me I tried doing the 4-a-day reduction plan and though it helped me wean down from the higher doses I need a little more time from 1mg and under. It takes me around 1 week at the least to feel reductions. I think we long term folks need to be stable mentally aswel as pshycaly. Because of the half life is so stacked up in our system it's wise for us to reduce while we feel stable. I think the trick could be missed if folks "think" they are stable enough to taper down while in infact they are not. I say this because one might believe if they don't feel any symptoms by the 4th day or even the 5th day they easily drop down, while infact the symptoms/withdrawals are only being held back and taking their time because of the half life covering us, so when folks do drop down before the half life has leveled itself out they tend to feel symptoms later on and are all made worse. This is what I figured. I tried to experiment a few times. I realized if I wean down on the 4th day am actually dropping downt before the symptoms are felt. This only makes for worse symptoms later. So I worked out it's better to wait at least a week, so I can stable mentally and pshycal. Hell someone even mentioned to take 2 months to wean from 0.2 to 0, or to stay on 0.125 for about a month. They were also on sub for many years and figured to minimize withdrawals and paws it's to stay on each dose especially the small ones for up to weeks or even a month or more so all the half life from your past sub doses will even itself out.

    I think folks have long paws (from sub) because the bup is stuck hard on our receptors, so even if you do a wean to a low dose there is stil considerable amount of sub life in our brains and body. So it's been said best bet for long term users such as myself is to wait for a while until symptoms appear and then get stable mentally and pshycally. I've read around many forums and this is what I figured out and also from experimenting. Just imagain you took 0.5 of sub for the first time? and you stayed on that dose for 1 month, wouldn't you be stable? of course. So I read that the point is if your in symptoms or nuicence withdrawals while weaning its so all the bup you took in the past is evening itself out, and eventually no matter how long it takes you will stablize, and then to keep repeating this process, only way to lessen withdrawals and PAWS to some degree.

    As I said this is all from researching, asking people's experience and personal experiment too. Only strictkly for long term users. I also read that the people who are on bup for a short while which could range from 1 month to 6 months actually suffer more then long termers? because by the time they wean and taper off they still have considerable amount of bup in their bodies and receptors. I read that this is because the sub is actually still rising in their bodies by the time they jump, whereas to long term bup individuals the sub has reached base-line so you're good to taper down and get use to minor symptoms, by the time you jump you would have taken many months to wean and in those times you would have gotten use to the feeling of reality and some symptoms, so is there any truth in this? seems to make a a lttle sense doesn't it.
    Last edited by Technical; 03-10-2011 at 09:19 PM.

  5. #5
    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    I always thought short term stays on bup only mean longer mild withdrawals because when your tapering down your also building the sub inside yourself, but to a long term user your actually reducing the amount of sub in your system as it has reached its ceiling level in the body, so your all good to go taper long enough to get rid of much as bup as possible. I know it seems complicated and bunch of jibberish but the more I think about this the more it seems to make a little sense. I think you need to be open-minded and look at all the options and experiences here.

    Anyway like I said am weaning down as soon as I believe the symptoms have gone and half life has level itself out. Am on 0.6 now. Its taken me 2 years to go from 11mg to 0.6mg. And it's been comfortable too, because I experimented and took my time. Hopefully it will be the same when I jump, surely all this tapering can only benifit me when I jump?...Before the wean I was already on subutex for 4 years between 8mg and 11mg. I already added enough bup in me that I couldnt add more and reached it's maximum, so I don't think tapering this long is adding or making it any worse? well that's the way I see it anyway! If anything the more I go down the more I feel a little bit of reality, so if I can get use to that and some minor symptoms that can only mentally be on my side can't it? meaning your receptors are use to long doable symptoms so by the time you jump it won't be so much of a shock. Make any sense? again I concluded this after many months of reading and many different experiments on my behalf. Will update soon.

    If anybody can voice their opinions on short acting opiates being used while any bup comes out of the system then that'll will only make me weigh up my options. Am thinking of using different short acting opiates for around 4 weeks after my jump date. Take codeine for 1 week, take dihydrocodeine for 1 week, tramadol for 1 week or 2 weeks (or any order) and then using clonidine or britlofex to help with any symptoms/withdrawals from the short acting opiates! surely this could be of some benifit? as many have claimed this method has been benifical for them. Yes the dangers of re-addiction on short acting opiates is real but if controled and only used to help minimize any bup withdrawals then isn't it possible?
    Last edited by Technical; 03-10-2011 at 09:24 PM.

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    cowildflower is offline Member
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    Default just wanted to know I am here

    I hate it when I write posts seemingly to myself

    So, I just wanted to you to know that I am checking your thread to see if anyone gives out advice. I keep finding excuses to stay where I am; but I am at a much higher dose than you. I am around 3 mg still. was down to 2 but had a horribly stressful (understatement) week and just couldn't deal. Yes, I know that in 'real life' those things are going to happen and I cannot turn to drugs to deal with them. But, at this point, I am already on drugs and just didn't have the strength to drop my dose right now.

    Let me know if you have any more thoughts on this, and your dropping down goes!

    flower

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    oneistoomany is offline Member
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    I just want to say hi too, LOL-- I read your post but don't have an answer-- Just don't want you to feel like no one cares. I do-- Just don't know the answer.

    Becky

  8. #8
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    technical, we can think of all sorts of rationalities to stay on sub for ages. i did

    it was mostly fear. you can taper as slow as you need, but in the end, ya just gota jump and be done with it. get some benzos to help you sleep, taper as low as you can possibly get (i was about .25)

    and as for your original question, can you use SAO to get off subs. hahahaha, sorry mate, but what made you take subs in the first place.

    thats a joke in my books, i would be right back of to the races. use the sub. be wise.
    taper.
    jump.
    get on with it.

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    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    I actually started to take sub because I liked the high it gave me...I was misinformed about the withdrawals and PAWS side of it..I think once you've been on long-term sub then using a short-acting-opiate to help sub withdrawals can only be an advantage. Everybody knows sub has long withdrawals so using a SAO to loosen those receptors a bit or not to feel too much of bup withdrawals can only be wise. Yes danger of being addicted to SAO's is real, but it's not impossible not to be addicted to them. I only want to use them to help me with my withdrawals. It's in my own hands. Surely a long drawn out process consisting of bup-withdrawals gives one more chance of a relapse then SAOs can...Also Ibogaine is also an option, though I find many sub users don't have too much success unless they do a couple of flood doses but none the less it's still an option isn't it.

  10. #10
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    well youve got it all sewn up then havent ya. you dont need this forum, you already know what you are doing.

    (yeh seems blunt, but ask a question, get an answer, and tell us wot you doing, hullo, hullo, )

    good luck anyway, if ya can get off opiates that way go for it.
    me i managed after over 20 years iv, to use subs to get clean.

  11. #11
    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    Yes I know my plan, don't know if it will be properly executed. I came here wondering if other folks went through the same plan or any folks who were on sub for years and are clean. So far Ive looked so many times and cannot find many sub-users (1 year or more) who can say they are happy and clean. This instills a bit of fear in me!

  12. #12
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    That's because the people who are clean and happy have moved on with their life. They don't generally hang around the forum after they are well. There are tons of people who got clean after using subs for years and have stayed clean, mended family relationships, etc. They just don't stay on the forum, sadly, sharing all their success stories for a long term basis.

    You see more problem stories because they are the only ones still trying to get well. It's impossible to bring back all the successful people who have used subs for 8-10 years or more, even from other countries too, to share their success stories. You'll just have to take my word on it if you choose to.

    I can't do anything to prove what I'm saying but I have no reason to make it up. There comes a time when we have to trust someone to tell us the truth or not believe anyone. I can't control which choice you decide to go with.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 03-18-2011 at 01:42 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  13. #13
    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    That's because the people who are clean and happy have moved on with their life. They don't generally hang around the forum after they are well. There are tons of people who got clean after using subs for years and have stayed clean, mended family relationships, etc. They just don't stay on the forum, sadly, sharing all their success stories for a long term basis.

    You see more problem stories because they are the only ones still trying to get well. It's impossible to bring back all the successful people who have used subs for 8-10 years or more, even from other countries too, to share their success stories. You'll just have to take my word on it if you choose to.

    I can't do anything to prove what I'm saying but I have no reason to make it up. There comes a time when we have to trust someone to tell us the truth or not believe anyone. I can't control which choice you decide to go with.

    I hear you. So far am going with your plan of taper. Now am on 0.5mg. Problem is I still feel the same as though I was on 8mg. I can certainly feel the reduction-dose but I can also feel half-life in life. I was hoping by now I would be in in some sort of withdrawals or felt the dose more i.e bit of clearity. This tells me I got a lot of half-life in me and what is to come...Well nothing I can do about that except taper and see where it takes me...Remember I've been on bup-sub for nearly 6 years.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technical View Post
    I hear you. So far am going with your plan of taper. Now am on 0.5mg. Problem is I still feel the same as though I was on 8mg. I can certainly feel the reduction-dose but I can also feel half-life in life. I was hoping by now I would be in in some sort of withdrawals or felt the dose more i.e bit of clearity. This tells me I got a lot of half-life in me and what is to come...Well nothing I can do about that except taper and see where it takes me...Remember I've been on bup-sub for nearly 6 years.




    No doubt subs are strong and logically you do have a lot of half life stored up. Slow it down a little. You can stretch that four days out to a week if necessary. Some of us have faster or slower metabolisms and other variables.

    That taper is a guide but we may need to make some adjustments when we've used a really long time. It was intended for me doing the induction and taking someone right through the taper. If it takes you a little longer after six years that's okay. Just push yourself as best you can without making yourself sick in the process. Don't be a martyr.

    You can taper all the way to zero mg if you want and skip the day skipping process even, that helps some people. I don't claim that it's a one size deal for everyone but if you stick with it as closely as you can you'll be successful. Have faith in yourself and you'll come out winning.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  15. #15
    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    No doubt subs are strong and logically you do have a lot of half life stored up. Slow it down a little. You can stretch that four days out to a week if necessary. Some of us have faster or slower metabolisms and other variables.

    That taper is a guide but we may need to make some adjustments when we've used a really long time. It was intended for me doing the induction and taking someone right through the taper. If it takes you a little longer after six years that's okay. Just push yourself as best you can without making yourself sick in the process. Don't be a martyr.

    You can taper all the way to zero mg if you want and skip the day skipping process even, that helps some people. I don't claim that it's a one size deal for everyone but if you stick with it as closely as you can you'll be successful. Have faith in yourself and you'll come out winning.

    Thanks man!...Do you know anybody personally who did well tapering after long-term use? and didn't have it soooo bad i.e wds/paws???...

    Also when I reach the skipping stage should I skip for 2-3 weeks? for example take 0.2mg for 6 days right and then miss the 7th day. Then take the 0.2mg dose for 5 days and skip the 6th and so on until I come up to 1 day and jump off. Considering I've been on bup for a very-long time the skipping process should be at the most a month for me right?

    Also what If I was take to something during my skip-days? for instance dihydrocodeine or lorezepam or whatever?

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    AnnieC50 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technical View Post
    Thanks man!...Do you know anybody personally who did well tapering after long-term use? and didn't have it soooo bad i.e wds/paws???...

    Also when I reach the skipping stage should I skip for 2-3 weeks? for example take 0.2mg for 6 days right and then miss the 7th day. Then take the 0.2mg dose for 5 days and skip the 6th and so on until I come up to 1 day and jump off. Considering I've been on bup for a very-long time the skipping process should be at the most a month for me right?

    Also what If I was take to something during my skip-days? for instance dihydrocodeine or lorezepam or whatever?
    Technical, I just thought I would throw my 2 cents in here. I mean no disrespect but I have to say that I had to chuckle after reading your post. Most people use Subs to get off the opiates that you want to use to help with your taper off Subs. I am no expert but it really makes no sense to me at all and I believe you are playing with fire. You keep saying that you feel fine when you taper. Did you ever think that the taper is working and you won't need to suplement it with other opiates? You may never feel any withdrawls if you take it slow. I believe it is fine to take as long as you think you need to taper off subs even if you have to go down to .10 mgs or less before you jump. My advice to you is to put your big boy pants on and tough it out as far as any possible sub withdrawls you may have and stay away from suplementing it with any other opiates. Soon you will be clean from subs and living your best life. I didn't mean to be so blunt and I truly wish you all the best.

    Annie

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Technical ..... like I told you before, after all the time I've been here I know tons of people who used for lots longer than you all over the world literally who are clean and happy today. But why would they be here posting? They are living their life, that is the idea to get our life back.

    Don't be so skeptical! If you willl just lighten up and trust me I promise I'm telling you the truth. Taper all the way to zero if you change anything. That would be better than changing the skipping process. Everyone always wants to think that they are unique, that no one else's situation is as bad as their's was when in reality we were all just a bunch of dope heads and are the same.

    If you will do what I suggest to you I guarantee you'll end up clean. It isn't rocket science, and I don't have all the answers in formulas and all that. I DO know what works. Just give what I'm saying a chance and I promise you'll end up successful. What have you got to lose listening to me but a bad habit? I have no reason to BS you, I'm doing my best to help you as much as I can but I need you to be naive enough to go along with me. If you do that you'll end up clean I promise.

    And forget the freakin PAWS! You're going to make yourself have PAWS just from thinking about it so much. I'm telling you it doesn't happen that often. Trust me dude, I've done this with hundreds if not a thousand people. Hardly anyone really gets PAWS .... LET IT GO!!!

    At the end if you need something take an ambien for sleep or a klonopin, something like that. But you shouldn't need ANYTHING more than that I assure you. Trust me man!
    Last edited by Robert_325; 03-18-2011 at 08:32 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Technical is offline Junior Member
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    Ok that's fine. Point taken..I will reduce in the next few days to see how I feel.

    @Annie I mentioned switchin to a SAO because some folks claim to have success with that. Yes I know most of us got on the sub-train to get off SAO's but the thought of long drawn out mild withdrawals can make you look for options is all, such as a SAO covering your mild withdrawals for a month and then using comfort meds such as clonidine-lofexidine to beat the SAO withdrawals..Not many Sub-Patients know sub has long withdrawals if not tapered properly and believe it's easier then SAO's to come off, which on the contrary is not true if jumped from a high dose, but like everyone says it depends on the individual... But yeah it was only an option as a way to be prepared is all.

    I don't plan to use this option as a first,but was just a plan if things go unbearable..Yes am doing fine now but I was led to believe at this stage one would get some symptoms as to feel some sort of reality but I still feel in a little fog. I would rather get use to some symptoms now so when I jump I would have had some experience in the symptoms and basically be used to it..Anyway at the moment am doing Robert's plan and see what happens...I do excercise a lot so that's a positive for me.

    Thanks guys.
    Last edited by Technical; 03-19-2011 at 12:59 AM.

  19. #19
    AnnieC50 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technical View Post
    Ok that's fine. Point taken..I will reduce in the next few days to see how I feel.

    @Annie I mentioned switchin to a SAO because some folks claim to have success with that. Yes I know most of us got on the sub-train to get off SAO's but the thought of long drawn out mild withdrawals can make you look for options is all, such as a SAO covering your mild withdrawals for a month and then using comfort meds such as clonidine-lofexidine to beat the SAO withdrawals..Not many Sub-Patients know sub has long withdrawals if not tapered properly and believe it's easier then SAO's to come off, which on the contrary is not true if jumped from a high dose, but like everyone says it depends on the individual... But yeah it was only an option as a way to be prepared is all.

    I don't plan to use this option as a first,but was just a plan if things go unbearable..Yes am doing fine now but I was led to believe at this stage one would get some symptoms as to feel some sort of reality but I still feel in a little fog. I would rather get use to some symptoms now so when I jump I would have had some experience in the symptoms and basically be used to it..Anyway at the moment am doing Robert's plan and see what happens...I do excercise a lot so that's a positive for me.

    Thanks guys.
    Technical, I am so glad that you are following Roberts plan I will continue to monitor your post and root for you all the way Best of luck my friend

    Annie

  20. #20
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technical View Post
    Ok that's fine. Point taken..I will reduce in the next few days to see how I feel.

    @Annie I mentioned switchin to a SAO because some folks claim to have success with that. Yes I know most of us got on the sub-train to get off SAO's but the thought of long drawn out mild withdrawals can make you look for options is all, such as a SAO covering your mild withdrawals for a month and then using comfort meds such as clonidine-lofexidine to beat the SAO withdrawals..Not many Sub-Patients know sub has long withdrawals if not tapered properly and believe it's easier then SAO's to come off, which on the contrary is not true if jumped from a high dose, but like everyone says it depends on the individual... But yeah it was only an option as a way to be prepared is all.

    I don't plan to use this option as a first,but was just a plan if things go unbearable..Yes am doing fine now but I was led to believe at this stage one would get some symptoms as to feel some sort of reality but I still feel in a little fog. I would rather get use to some symptoms now so when I jump I would have had some experience in the symptoms and basically be used to it..Anyway at the moment am doing Robert's plan and see what happens...I do excercise a lot so that's a positive for me.

    Thanks guys.





    Technical ..... I always spend Sunday in church for the biggest part of the day but I'll be home later if I can offer any help. Continue to do what you KNOW are the right things to be doing to help yourself.

    Don't push yourself too hard. Let me know later if I can help. Been kind of sick myself lately but hearing God's Word always picks me up. If you are so inclined this is a good time for prayer and the exercise is great medicine for opiate detox.. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 03-20-2011 at 07:23 AM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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