[figling]

My 19 year old son has been using one drug or another since he turned 11. Marijuana has been a staple all these years, used meth for some months but hated it, and now we've discovered he's addicted to heroin. He came to us for help, and around three weeks ago I took him to a clinic where he was prescribed Suboxone.

I overheard him today asking a friend if he wanted to "get high" tonight, and I have to think he meant marijuana, since the suboxone is meant to block the effects of heroin. In any case, I'm beyond frustrated because while my boy insists he wants to be drug free, he clearly isn't quite "there" yet. He will not submit to counseling or in-patient treatment, and I'm afraid that nothing will change except his drug of choice without some lifestyle adjustments and psychological help. Furthermore, he's adopted and we know for a fact that his birth father was an addict, so we think that there are strong genetic influences in play here.

The other concern I have is that he has not worked a full-time job since December and I wonder if he's ever going to be employable again. Pre-employment drug testing is pervasive these days, and I'm thinking the one thing he'd really like to do..to get a CDL and become a trucker...will not happen for him if he's got any drugs in his system.

I've already heard enough lectures from people who haven't lived through this. What I need is advice from people who have been there and tips about ways to motivate him to make the changes he needs to make to be an independent adult. Will staying on the suboxone change his brain chemistry to where he can think more seriously about his life? I suspect he will be on it for some time. Does anybody know if it would show up in a pre-employment drug screen and if so, would it knock him out of consideration for a job? Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Robert_325]

You've got a tough situation with your son. He has basically been high his entire life, except as a very small child. His social skills are pretty much non-existant so he is going to have to learn a lot AFTER he gets cleaned up. And you can't do that for him as much as you would be willing to. I'm a parent too and understand. I am thankful I've not had to go through what you are. Thank God!

You are correct in that the suboxone works against opiates only. If he is not going to leave other drugs alone he is probably not in the proper mental state to clean up from the opiates. It's possible I am wrong but unlikely. He has to realize he can't use drugs or he won't stay clean even from the opiates. I am making an assumption here, but its a safe assumption. He is an extremely high risk for opiate relapse.

CDL tests are tough. He won't pass the test with drugs in his system. Even pot will be detected in urine tests for over a month for a regular smoker. My concern would be dealing with this drug issue first rather than the CDL. He is 19 and still has time left where you can possibly turn him around. Unless the behavior/drug problem is handled everything else is just a bandaid, a short term fix. His problem is his behavior. You could possibly use the CDL as motivation for him to clean up if he really wants the CDL. It sounds like he is much more concerned about getting high to me than obtaining a CDL. He hasn't even had a job in over six months. Doesn't seem very motivated right now.

Your son is a perfect candidate for staying on suboxone for a longer term than the usual month or so. It will help keep him off the opiates, unless he stops taking the suboxone and relapses on the opiates. That would definitely be a concern and really is a likelihood regardless of what he is saying. I really don't know for sure what to tell you. You can take drastic action or back off. Those are your choices, nothing in between. You've got to take over everything, get him in a longterm residential program where he can't leave or else you have to give him enough rope to hang himself. Tough love. Those are your only options that I see. He needs to hit bottom so he will go willingly, or else you have to put him someplace and be prepared to fight with him. Remember that it's the drugs talking and not him as I'm sure he is frustrating you big time. But at 19 you have a major battle on your hands if he is not willing. Let us know how it's going. Good luck and God bless.

[EN OPP]

Robert's input was very insightful from a parents' point of view, but I'd like to give you my opinion through a different perspective. I am 21 years old, and I also used drugs from a younger age, I tried everything out there, but stuck to pot most of the time. It wasn't until a couple years ago that I started dabbling in opiates and eventually became addicted. I've now been clean for 4 months. When I quit, I put my mom through what you're going through right now, and I wouldn't accept help from anyone. I had lost her trust, a lot of money, (both mine and hers) and my job. That was rock bottom for me, and I decided to finally be off these drugs, for myself no matter how bad it hurt.

Your son coming to you for help means he realizes he has a problem, and wants to fix it which is a great first step. As far as working goes, I too was unemployed for a while after quitting and I had no motivation to find a new job. Life was just not the same without my pills. Eventually I re-learned to enjoy life, and pursue my goals. It just takes time and you will have to be patient with your son.

One more thing I want to add, I don't believe that because he's still smoking weed that he isn't in the right mindset to quit opiates. Weed helped me tremendously after I quit, it helped me sleep, took away nausea, increased my appetite, and helped relieve alot of the body discomfort and anxiety that accompany withdrawals. I know how harsh the drug screenings are for jobs these days, but there are many all-natural "detox" products that will help him pass drug testd nowadays. I'm not condoning that he smokes, I just believe the benefits far outweigh the risks.

I hope I could help somewhat while you are going through this arduous phase with your son. I really hope he succeeds, good luck, and if you have any questions I'll be happy to try and help.

[Robert_325]

I was really hesitant about responding to this first post. This is a touchy situation. I want to say that I have read most of your posts and agree with what you usually say. So take what I say the right way please. I was 21 once too. I also started getting high very young and didn't stick with pot ... I abused everything. On my 21st birthday my parents were trying to find me, not even knowing what country I was in while I was with my girlfriend partying in Acapulco running around in a limo drinking Cristal and doing lines. So I've been young and understand the difference in attitude with a few years. I would not listen to anyone when I was 21 and my parents had no choice but to allow me to run my course. And I made it ok, even though I was blessed, thats the only reason I made it.

I hope figling's son makes it. But there is more to this than him just smoking some herb. I personally don't have a problem with pot except that its illegal. Believe me I've smoked my share. And it does help some people with w/d symptoms. But listen to yourself talking about the benefits of herb and about taking "cleanse" products to pass a urine test for work??? How adult is that really??? What about a random test? They do those with DOT and CDL licenses. So is it responsible to smoke pot and risk a random losing everything you have? If he wants a CDL license then he needs to engage in the right activities to get that license. If he wants to smoke then he should do something other than get a CDL.

No way figling should blow off his son. I agree he needs to be patient and understand that his son is still young and he is acting accordingly. I'm sure figling will show his son love and compassion or he wouldn't be writing here for suggestions. But I also think this young man needs to focus on making some major changes in his life, not trying to figure out which drugs he will still be able to get high on if he gets off the opiates. That kind of attitude is not likely going to help this guy clean up. It's not the end of the world to not have a job, but this guy has become addicted to heroin and hasn't worked in seven months or so. That doesn't sound like he needs to be holding on to any drugs for old times sake. This guy needs to clean up his life before he messes it up worse. At least that is my opinion.

[figling]

You are both offering some wonderful insights from the perspectives of a newly clean addict and one who's older and has more distance from his past abuse. I appreciate you both very much for helping me with this. What I really get from both of your replies is that it will take hitting rock bottom for my son to make the decision to get completely clean, and only he will know what rock bottom is.

So I have more questions. I want my actions to support rather than enable J, so I wonder what actions I should take to gently allow him to hit rock bottom. What actions did your parents take...or stop taking... that might have contributed to your final wish to get clean. Also, it would help me to know how you both managed to stay clean once you made the decision to be so. What kind of support did you seek out and how did you change your lives? Did either of you do residential treatment or suboxone? Was religion a big factor for either of you?

Just to give you a little more perspective, I need to tell you a few more things about us. First, I'm Mom. Dad is completely depressed and unable to cope with any of this and would rather pretend it's not happening, so I'm on my own. Also, we live out in the middle of nowhere....18 miles from the nearest small town...so I can't just take the car keys away and tell him to walk or use the bus. When I give him gas money, he promises to go look for a job, but never seems to get one. If I quit giving him gas money, which is what I wish I could do, he would probably just go and stay with his friends, I would lose any ability to help him get suboxone, and he'd end up back on opiates for sure.

Thank you both again for getting involved in this discussion.

[EN OPP]

Robert_325 - I've also read, and enjoyed many of your posts. I think you give everyone here that you talk to very good advice, including what you said in your previous post. I thought about it, and I shouldn't have said that smoking is beneficial at all for her son. As far as getting his CDL, there is no point risking not getting a good job because he was smoking weed every day...I usually try to be as helpful as I can on this forum, but sometimes I let my personal views get in the way of my posts.

I enjoyed what you said about the partying in Acapulco, I can relate to that, and even though I'm still very young, I have not lived that crazy lifestyle in a couple years. I think it's out of my system . I never went out while on the oxycodone.

figling - When I said that I hit rock bottom, basically I had no more funding for my drug habit, and my relationship with my family and girlfriend were falling apart. That gave me initiative to finally get clean. There is no need to make your son hit "rock bottom" because at that point there's a chance he won't come back. It seems to me that if he is willing to stay on the suboxone, that he wants to stay clean.

There are two main things that helped me not relapse until now. First, I cut all my connections off to get the drugs the first day I was clean. That way, whenever I craved the opiates, there was no way of me getting them. The second thing is exercise. I used to be very active before becoming an addict and gave it all up for the drugs. Now that I'm clean again I'm back to surfing, wakeboarding, and working out. If your son has any interests like that, try to get him out there being active. It will make his recovery faster, and he will feel again what it's like to be healthy without any chemicals in his body.

As far as support goes, I'm a very introverted person, especially when it comes to problems. My mom was the only one that found out about my addiction, and she supported me as much as she could, even though she had no idea what I was going through. This forum helped me out the most. Maybe you could get your son to come on here and read some of the posts. It really touched me emotionally when I first realized there were so many people in my situation, and so many people here willing to help like robert_325. There are many support groups like NA, but I don't know much about them. Also, I didn't try suboxone or any other treatment. I quit cold turkey, but that's just what worked for me. I've heard many good as well as bad things about the sub. keep us posted on your sons' progress

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by figling

You are both offering some wonderful insights from the perspectives of a newly clean addict and one who's older and has more distance from his past abuse. I appreciate you both very much for helping me with this. What I really get from both of your replies is that it will take hitting rock bottom for my son to make the decision to get completely clean, and only he will know what rock bottom is.

So I have more questions. I want my actions to support rather than enable J, so I wonder what actions I should take to gently allow him to hit rock bottom. What actions did your parents take...or stop taking... that might have contributed to your final wish to get clean. Also, it would help me to know how you both managed to stay clean once you made the decision to be so. What kind of support did you seek out and how did you change your lives? Did either of you do residential treatment or suboxone? Was religion a big factor for either of you?

Just to give you a little more perspective, I need to tell you a few more things about us. First, I'm Mom. Dad is completely depressed and unable to cope with any of this and would rather pretend it's not happening, so I'm on my own. Also, we live out in the middle of nowhere....18 miles from the nearest small town...so I can't just take the car keys away and tell him to walk or use the bus. When I give him gas money, he promises to go look for a job, but never seems to get one. If I quit giving him gas money, which is what I wish I could do, he would probably just go and stay with his friends, I would lose any ability to help him get suboxone, and he'd end up back on opiates for sure.

Thank you both again for getting involved in this discussion.

It would be great if your son would stay on the suboxone for a while and allow himself to heal. It really does help if he will take advantage of it. Sub certainly helped me. But it still wasn't until I changed my activities that I truly changed for the better. I hope he will realize how important this chance is for him. There is a chance we won't come back just like EN OPP said when we hit rock bottom. We are playing for keeps here and its very serious. But if you continue to feed J's addictive behavior its almost certain he will never come out of that. There is no reason to. He is getting everything he wants. I will agree with EN OPP that if J will stay on the suboxone for a good while that would seem to be an indicator that he is showing some willingness ... a point in his behalf. I hope he follows through.

There is nothing soft about hitting rock bottom. It's really sad when we have to do that to move forward, but its a reality of the choices we have made some times. This a deal where there is nothing soft or in between, this is life and death. Don't shoot J down but as long as he has you to pick him up he will keep falling. Think about anything you have taught your kids. There is a point where you let go and allow them to fall. That teaches them to stand up. Same deal here. The bad part of this lesson is that he is playing for keeps ... jail, institutions, death. No way to do anything soft with those potential consequences.

My parents tried to do like you seem to be doing. But I wouldn't listen either. I could always scam some money so I could live the way I wanted to for as long as I chose. Consequently I had many years living a less-than-productive life. It was my children and eventually my love for Jesus Christ that changed my life. I was blessed, deserved to be dead so many times. I did in-patient detox twice, subutex, NA, but not until I made my mind up to change my activities did I get better. What I am saying is that we can't fix everything for our kids, even though we want to. It would be nice if our children decided at 21 to change their life just like EN OPP did. I commend and respect him for taking the action he did at 21. Thats awfully young to show that much focus. But lots of kids aren't that focused to do it on their own just because it makes sense. EN OPP possibly could smoke pot and leave other drugs alone ... who knows? He has proven by action that he is responsible. Notice how EN OPP changed most all of his activities, cut off his dealers, etc. But J hasn't done that. He has acted very irresponsibly and needs some constructive direction from his parents. If he threatens to leave help him pack his suitcase ... hell, I would give him a ride where he wants to go.

What are you accomplishing by continuing to give him the car and money with no accountability? Why can't you take the car keys? Who owns the car? I am not saying throw him to the wolves, rather just make him account for the money or let him go move in with his friends if that is the threat. Do you think they will give him money? When he runs out eventually you'll hear from him when hunger hits. Feeding him money is enabling his behavior. You know it is. This is what I'm talking about with making him responsible and when he falls just be there ready to help ... "with conditions". He has to learn to adhere to some rules or he will never change anything. Why should he? He is getting exactly what he thinks he wants. Remember its the drugs talking, but either he gets with the program or I would let him fall flat on his @$$. Only then will he likely become ready for your help without taking advantage. Good luck.

And for what its worth, my dad tried to ignore my behavior too until he couldn't ignore it anymore. After seeing me on the 6:00 news a couple times he finally realized that maybe I had a problem. He wouldn't even speak to me for a couple years. We ended up becoming best of friends though, so there is hope for your son and husband. My mom was always trying to fix me though. Thank God for MOMS!

[jsknow]

I've had several family members and friends addicted to drugs, bad addictions, some died from it. I've been doing research on how to best deal with it for almost a year. One fact is certain. Prohibition of drugs promotes everything the drug war claims to be fighting. Because they have a very credible voice, I'm trying to get the medical community much more involved in promoting methods of dealing with drug use and abuse that have proven to get far better results than locking people up. Doctors can help addicts, cops cannot. Hands down the best policies are: honest drug education for all, regulate drugs instead of prohibiting them and get medical treatment for those with addictions.

I think the driving force behing the drug war is corruption. Until we end the drug war the politicians are not going to put the needed money into programs that work. Most of the prohibitionists are making money from prohibition... some legal, some illegal.

It's time to remove all the politicians that promote prohibition. How many more lives have to be needlessly devastated or lost? Prohibited drugs are way easier for kids to get than regulated drugs! Prohibition never works it just causes crime and violence.

The USA spends $69 billion a year on the drug war, builds 900 new prison beds and hires 150 more correction officers every two weeks, arrests someone on a drug charge every 17 seconds, jails more people than any nation and has killed over 100,000 citizens in the drug war.

In 1914 when there were no prohibited drugs 1.3% of our population was addicted to drugs, today 1.3% of our population is still addicted to drugs but there’s way more crime and violence because of the huge profits prohibition generates. Drugs today are more potent, more readily available and most are less expensive than they were in the early 70’s when Richard Nixon started the war on drugs.

There’s only been one drug success story in history, tobacco, by far the most deadly and one of the most addictive drugs. Almost half the users quit because of regulation, accurate information and medical treatment. No one went to jail and no one got killed.

There's a lot of information on the website noted below. Maybe we can save your son and the millions that the drug war is not helping at all but it's going to take a lot of people calling their elected representatives on a regular basis until we get the laws changed. At least if drugs are regulated we can keep tabs on who is getting them, right now the crooks that are in charge of the drug trade will sell to anyone as you well know from your son's experiences. Watch the videos, take action. join the email list, you and your son are in my prayers!
Internet explorer: http://jsknow.angelfire.com/home
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[figling]

I really applaud you both, EN and Robert, for quitting. You are both an inspiration to me. Watching my son go through withdrawl three weeks ago was incredibly gut-wrenching. I found out he was in withdrawl around three days into it, and by that time he was suicidal. I took him to the hospital for sedatives and two days later we were able to get him Suboxone at a clinic. I didn't go through it myself, but it is clear to me that withdrawl from opiates is anybody's worst nightmare.

EN...you are amazing! You quit cold turkey and just resolved to stay away from the people and activities that were a temptation. If you can apply that kind of resolve and focus in everything you do, you will no doubt be a very successful person.

ROBERT...you are truly blessed and an inspiration to me. You hung in there after trying many things and finally found something that worked. You got straight, repaired your relationship with your family, and are raising a family of your own. You've taught me that I cannot give up hope.

What I got from both your stories is that it's absolutely essential for a person to give up their connections and old lifestyle and replace them with more wholesome friends and activities, if they're really serious about getting clean. These are things my boy has yet to do, which indicate to me that he's not completely committed yet and manipulating the system.

It sounds to me like my role is to find ways to motivate and withdraw any financial support that serves to enable. I've been wracking my brains all day trying to come up with a plan, so let me run this one by you both:

I can't take the car keys away, because the car is essential to work where we live. I can, on the other hand, take away the gas money and offer to drive him to job interviews instead. If he chooses to leave because he doesn't like that plan, the choice is his, but he's always welcome here as long as he's gainfully employed or in school. We will provide love and food and the rest is up to him. Period.

Tell me what you think, and God bless you both.

JSKNOW...I agree that the current war on drugs is a horrible failure, and perhaps control of marijuana would be a good thing. I don't approve of either tobacco or marijuana for myself and believe they are the source of illness but I also don't believe that either of these are gateway drugs. Many reputable and ethical people that I know smoke marijuana in social situations and manage their lives quite well. Prohibition was a huge failure and it has to be up to individuals to control their own behavior and avoid abuse.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that controlling such drugs as heroin, meth, and cocaine would be a good thing at all because none of these has legitimate uses in society. They lead to addiction and death and we need to eradicate them and the people that profit from them.

Furthermore, as a former school counselor, I am convinced that while education programs are important, they aren't any kind of panacea. My son is a perfect example of how a kid could grow up with loving parents who gave him every advantage, incentive, and an anti-drug education (without moralizing) only to become an addict anyway.

[Robert_325]

..... yes I did go on to raise my family. Both of my children have post-grad degrees, one is an educator and the other a CPA. So I was very fortunate. They have both been gone from home a long time and I am a grandpa. LOL Your last post sounded like you probably think I am quite a bit younger than I am.

I think you have got the idea down perfect for making a plan for dealing appropriately with your son. Of course you have to make the plan. No one else knows what you are able to do but you. You can only do what you can do, but don't kid yourself by giving him money expecting him to do what you would like when there isn't any history that would support that goal. Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior as you know. We both hope this all works, but if he decides to leave home, then so be it. Just be there to pick him if he falls. I had to get tough with my daughter. It wasn't drugs, but it almost killed me to be a hard @ss with my little girl. She made the decision to work with me and today is a huge success personally, spiritually and financially. I am so grateful. Good luck with your son. It will all work out like it is supposed to I'm sure.

For what it's worth our opinions on the effectiveness of regulation, education and loving families in dealing with drug addiction are identical. I agree completely with everything you said. The only thing I would add is that the only time marijuana is a gateway drug is when we have to be around criminal elements where other drugs are available in order to obtain marijuana. So we kind of force this situation on our children with our laws. I am also a perfect example like your son of someone growing up in an educated and loving family and still becoming a drug abuser. Thankfully I survived and prospered thanks the mercy of Jesus Christ. Hope your son is successful with this too.

[figling]

Thank you so much for all your support. After watching the situation for a few days, I'm convinced that J is taking his suboxone and serious about getting clean. He's come home to sleep every night for several days and seems to have fired all but one of his former friends. He lined up three job interviews for today, so I figured out the number of gallons of gas it would take to get to them and gave him enough money to cover the gas. This plan seems reasonable to me, and I'll let you know from time to time how he's doing.

God bless

[kathy8167]

First of all, I am praying for you and your son. Addiction is a horrible, ugly, and scary disease for the addict AND friends and family.

I am a suboxone user myself. I am curious to know how many mg.'s your son is taking. I am suprised to find how easily you are getting suboxone for you son. I have to give random drug tests to prove I am indeed in recovery and not using any other drugs. I also have to have regular appointments to talk about my continued plan for recovery like NA meetings and therapy. Doctor's are required to do these sorts of things if they want to continue the license to prescribe suboxone. It doesn't sound like your son is in recovery, so I am surprised the doctor prescribed it for him. I'm sure you already know that suboxone is a partial-agonist opiate itself, but I'm not sure if you know that suboxone can be abused. I know of suboxone users who use the drug when the are out of their drug of choice to avoid withdrawal. When the do have enough of their drug of choice, like Oxycontin, etc., they stay high for many days or months but have the back up of their suboxone if they run out of money for their drug use or the ER doc won't give them a script. I am in no way saying your son is doing these things, I just wanted to let you know. Suboxone is a wonderful drug for addicts trying to quit narcotics. It's purpose is to prevent relapse while the addict is trying to change his lifestyle. It has helped me let go of old connections and help me gain sober friends and a life based on recovery. I am tapering down on my suboxone in hopes of being totally free of narcotics. I will be on the suboxone for about a year. I have three months left to go. By then I will have a totally different lifestyle that supports my sober life. I mean no disrespect when I say this, but it sounds to me like your son is using it for a band-aid, knowing that if he doesn't take it, he is forced to feel the awful effects of withdrawal which I know in first hand, is the most horrible thing to go through... But it doesn't kill and it does NOT last forever. I have been through withdrawal numerous times just to get addicted again. I know you want to keep your son from experiencing withdrawal, it's horrible! I too became suicidal and I was put in a psychiatric ward until the withdrawal subsided (anywhere from 3-7 days depending on what and how much was abused.)
The plan to give just enough gas money to get to the interviews alarms me. Where was the resolve to drive him to the interviews? I know I sound harsh, but addiction is even harsher! This is how you need to be with your son. I am also a mom and I know how we want to help them, but I also know addiction and you cannot keep enabling him like you do. You want to believe him but how can you? Not until he can PROVE his trust. Don't think that you are being harsh with your son. Think of it as you are being harsh with the addiction. The addiction has him and he will not be your son again until he is free. I know that is hard to hear, but as an addict, I know how it consumes you love nothing but your drugs while you are trapped. Do not enable. Frankly, your son needs to feel the very harsh effects of using... withdrawal, loss of relationships, loss of possessions, even jail before he will WANT to quit. One thing you can do that I believe works, is pray. Pray night and day, and have others pray too. I am praying for all of you. Al-anon or narc-anon is another way to personally help you though this challenge. It can help you so much more than these message boards will. I apologize if you find any of this offensive. My intent is to help. I do not know your son or how heavily he is addicted. I am gathering my opinion by how you stated he has been using since he was 11. One more thing I would like to say is do not be ashamed. Underneath his addiction is you beautiful boy. He did not ask for this and he did not choose to become addicted. Hate the addiction, not the boy. (I know you love you son very much, I am just saying don't get the two confused.) Addiction happens whether you are rich or poor, or have had a good child-hood or not. You are an awesome mom to care so much and want to help. Just remember this when you want to save him from something bad... He NEEDS to feel the consequences of his behavior and his drug use. The more consequences he feels, the closer he will come to wanting to change his life. I cannot imagine how scary that is. I know you are worried he will end up dead. Just think of how many more years he will endure this if you enable him now. More years to do drugs... if he doesn't ever want to quit, then death surely is inevitable. Good luck and God bless. Remember, keep praying!

[figling]

Thanks for your response, Kathy. I'm not offended by anything you said. I know the dangers you describe are real and possible for my boy, and I appreciate your validation of my own concerns.

J has only been on opiates for 6 months, and that's why they were able to give him suboxone rather than methadone. He's going to a clinic in the town in which we live, and a doctor who is qualified to do so is prescribing the meds. He is required to take blood tests and urine tests between and on the day of his visits. He is also required to have a physical and sit down for a discussion with the doctor when he goes in for his prescriptions. Unfortunately, although a counselor is on site, they aren't requiring him, at this point, to speak with her. The doc did recommend that he get rid of his friends and find some kind of support system outside the clinic, such as Narcotics Anonymous or a church. He also said that the process will be lengthy with my son, because he's got such a long history of usage, and he counseled me to be patient and let the suboxone do it's job for now.

The reason I decided to give him the gas money for the job interviews rather than drive him is that he's humiliated going on job interviews with his mom. I decided I'm not going to draw the line there, because it's important to me that he remain at home as long as I feel he's sincerely trying to change his life. I know he may take two steps forward and one step back, but as long as he's moving in the right direction, I will be there to support him. I'm the only one he talks to. If he feels pushed out of the house when he's trying to be opiate free, I will lose his trust and the ability to keep him talking and working on his issues. We are making progress in his ability to communicate his feelings to me and that is a huge step for him.

I really do appreciate your comments though, and I will keep the pitfalls in mind. If he stops keeping his doctor appointments, stops the job search and/or doesn't take a job of some kind in the next week or so, or in any way gives me the impression he's abusing the suboxone I will respond by completely withdrawing gas money. He's expressing real interest in going to school at some point to get his CDL and begin a driving career, and I'm encouraging him to do this. He knows he has to be drug free to go in this direction, so it's an incentive to give up the weed, too. Right now it's wait and see for me. Give me a week to work with him some more, and let's see where we're at. I'll let you know, and thank you.

[AjaxTheCleaner]

First of all I want to say hello to all of you as this is my very first post on this forum. I am a 33-yr-old husband and father of 2, and though my children aren't old enough yet to be getting into too much trouble I empathize with parents who are dealing with an addict child, and understand the overwhelming desire to put an end to that child's suffering. I agree with some of the other posts in this thread -- that it is better for the child if the parents step back and allow the child to suffer the consequences of his actions, as long as the child knows that you are there for him showing love, kindness and support in his recovery. By doing anything to minimize consequences what you are really doing is robbing your child of valuable lessons and as a result you are ultimately prolonging his (and your) suffering. It looks like you have already come to this conclusion, figling, so you have already taken the most important step in helping your son.

We addicts really need a hard kick in the pants sometimes to bring us to our knees and force us to choose between a sober life or inevitable death. For some of us one trip to rock bottom isn't enough, but I think if we can survive the consequences of our poor judgment we eventually get tired of living life as a piece of garbage. I truly believe that there is not one of us who wants to be an addict. We simply have too much greatness and potential within us to settle for anything less than to be great and do great things with our lives.

figling, based on what you've told me I can't help but believe that your son is going to be okay. He came to you for help, and that's truly one of the most difficult things for an addict to do. Most of us addicts will hide our addiction from our loved ones at all costs. I can't imagine why he would have confided in you unless he was serious about getting well. There will no doubt be rough times ahead for you and your son but in my opinion he has already made a quantum leap toward his recovery. Just make sure you don't let your guard down and become complacent simply because your son appears to be making progress. It will be a long time before he's "out of the woods" and you owe it to him to keep on eye on him. Actually, don't think of it as keeping an eye on him as much as you are standing guard against the evil that has held him hostage all these months -- and evil that will attempt to re-infiltrate your son at the first opportunity. Having said that I think it's healthy for you to give your son a little slack so that he can exercise responsibility and work on regaining the trust of those around him but even more importantly so that he can work on regaining trust in himself. I don't think it's necessary for you to drive him everywhere. No offense but that would really annoy me as well, to have my mother drive me places all the time. There will be plenty of other ways for you to tell if he is slipping.

I agree with your son's doctor regarding the need for your son to find support outside of the clinic. Following my first round with heroin I attended support groups at my local church religiously for a few months, and I was seeing a counselor once a week as well. It wasn't even a month after I got cocky, thought I was cured and quit attending the support groups that I relapsed. I had suffered my first heroin detox cold turkey the all natural way and it was an indescribable hell that lasted weeks. I even went into convulsions several times during the first couple of days, which I don't think is all that common. If I wasn't in such bad shape through the worst of it I probably would have ended my life, but as desperately as I wanted to I was physically and mentally unable to carry out such a task. Even as brutal as that experience was, the horrible memory of it all was not enough to keep me clean. You have to remain vigilant, and that means finding a support group that you like and sticking with it. I tried NA and I hated it, but after having been given a second chance I sought out a local outpatient rehab facility and it's really helped me. I've also started going back to the addict recovery groups at my church which has added a lot of positive reinforcement. It has helped me immensely to be able to talk with and enjoy the comradery of fellow recovering addicts who are the only people who can possibly comprehend what I'm going through.

I wish you the best in your battle, figling. I don't mean to be cliche but I honestly believe that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. There are some valuable lessons to be learned from these experiences. If we must go through it we might as well get something out of it, right?

[figling]

Ajax: Thank you so much for responding, and I feel so much better knowing that you agree about not driving the kid to the job interviews. In fact, your feedback is very very reassuring in general.

I know that J needs a support group of some kind, but getting him to go to a formal group is just not going to happen. He's not interested at all in anything spiritual and thinks NA would just be more of the same churchy preachy kind of stuff. I even tried...but failed... to interest him in a young person's NA meeting that I was told about...kids from 18-21 who meet late on Friday nights and call it a "rave" group. J is introverted and quiet and very opinionated about what he thinks is "cheesy" or over-the-top.

I do think, though, that he has a friend or two who is also trying to quit, and so maybe they are supporting one another. I pray that's what's happening, and I guess only time will tell. He did tell me that he's actively seeking a girlfriend, because he knows he will do better if he has someone who loves him. So I pray he finds her, too. One would think that if he needs the support of others experiencing what he is experiencing, that he would seek it out at some point, but for now, Mom, Doc, and the suboxone seem to be the only support system he wants.

As for me, it's obvious that I need a support system! I've tried to find a Nar-Anon group nearby, but alas was unable to do so. The nearest group is almost an hour away. I may take a drive anyway, and try it out next week. I'm a little leery, because I attended Al-anon meetings years ago, and because the cigarette smoke was very detrimental to my asthma, I stopped going. I do worry that they will allow smoking, and therefore even if I make the drive I won't be able to participate. We'll see.

Ajax and Kathy: Thank you for sharing your experiences with withdrawl. I am in awe of both of you for your strength in getting through that and pray that you both will stay clean and safe always and that Kathy will soon find success in getting off the suboxone.

I do agree that what does not kill us makes us stronger.

[kuhn]

i am addicted to opiates, percocet mostly, and i told my mother two years ago. while she was very supportive and loving, i dont believe she grasped the severity of it. i however was not as young as your son.

here it is two years later, and i told her i checked myself into an outpatient program. she feels she has been lied to. the first time she helped to taper me, then sent me back to where i lived thinking i was all better. and just got a little hooked. now she is more stern. this is your life- you gotta start living it the way you want to or you will never learn. pick yourself up. every one has their own baggage. now deal with it. she says. but, she is there for me for every call.

i guess i just wanted to say what great mom you seem to be. in my case too. for looking into all of this. i had to let my mother know that i kept taking because, i believed i had a disease. it seems to me he just wants to escape. therapy helped me alot at that age.

have you thought of naltrexone for your son? i may have misspelled, but, i am about to start it. and while its not a miracle cure all, many studies have shown it is quite beneficial. where as the sub is addictive.

i am trying my best to be a great son to my parents. i guess help him the way you have and ill be thinking of you both.

day 6 for me. hooray. break a leg.

[figling]

Thanks for the compliment and for writing, Kuhn. You are correct in that you do have a disease; so does my son. I think when people turn to opiates it's because they want to escape from whatever pain they are dealing with in their lives...either physical or emotional...and then they get hooked and the drug controls them and makes them sick in a new way.

Addiction is a disease, and it is my belief that we need to help people when they are ill to get better. Sounds like your mom feels that way also; she loves you a lot, too. Your mom and I are both learning how to help our boys. We're learning that treatments don't always work, patients doesn't always cooperate, and relapse is expected in this particular disease.

You are doing a really good thing by going to the outpatient clinic to get help. Don't ever quit trying to get well!

I don't know anything about naltrexone, but the clinic where my son goes doesn't offer it. Since J is legally an adult, and he wants the suboxone treatment, that's what he's getting. I would have chosen in-patient treatment with lots of intensive counseling and group time for him, if it had been up to me, but it wasn't and isn't. I will try to learn something about naltrexone, though, just in case he wants to do something else later, and I thank you for mentioning it.

Stay with it Kuhn, and God bless you!

[Retrouser]

I was a great kid up to 12th grade. I had a 3.5 gpa, only seen a joint once and see little fragments of pot on an acquaintances dashboard. Then all of a sudden I changed friends when my senior year started. They were the pot heads. I didn't smoke for the first few weeks but started drinking. Then started smoking pot. Then tried LSD, Shrooms, and I'd steal my mom's Vicodin. Now I have chronic pain and feel horrible about doing it 'cause I stole pain free days from my mom, but, that's another issue. Then after my Senior year, I graduated...blah blah blah, spent the whole summer smoking pot, we had a month that we called "Whiskey Month". My friends would come in the morning with a half-gallon or two of Fleischmans Whiskey and we'd down it until night time where we drank more Whiskey. Then I found out about Oxycontin and Morphine which I loved. Then I found out about Cocaine which took me for a good year. $300/day habbit and after I'd go through it, I'd snort/take a type of pain killer to come down from. Then all of a sudden, I guess my "rock" bottom or what-not was seeing my mom cry from my abuse of coke. I think another thing that helped was, I used to be a big video game fanatic, so I started playing a Massive Multiplayer Role Playing Game (MMORPG) and I changed friends. Sometimes some of them would come over and we'd drink and do some coke, but, it basically slowed down to once a week to once a month. Then when I was 20, I moved from Michigan to Georgia and have been clean since. I also wanted to stop (like I said, mom crying=bad) I mean, I'm in Atlanta, it's not like I can't find drugs, I just don't want them. This was just my experience.
I also learned from a few of my non-drug addicted friends that my drug addicted friends started doing cocaine and even heroin and I'm pretty certain, if I stayed, I would have gotten worse and started heroin. But moving was a big thing for me. I know it's not a huge option for you or your son, but...man, it helped me so much. And, I do have a g/f that's very supportive. She loves drinking, (but only like, once every 2 months) but she doesn't even smoke cigs. So a change in friends will DEFINITELY help and a g/f that doesn't do drugs helped me a whole bunch 'cause every time I did do a drug..you know, I had to tell her and she got disappointed in me.

Long story short, what helped me was my mom crying, changing friends/getting rid of my drug friends/moving/and having a g/f that didn't do drugs.

I hope your kid does well ma'am. But the other point of my story, maybe he's just doing his experimental stage. Granted, the heroin scares me because of how hardcore of a drug heroin is. Does he shoot it or snort it? Both are bad, but, I dunno, I just think there is more of a stigma around shooting it than snorting it and maybe if he's just snorting it, he's not "far gone" enough for it to have a huge grasp on him. My opinion only.

[kathy8167]

Figling:

It's Kathy again. I think I was a bit harsh and I apologize. It's just that addiction, and what your son is going through brings up a lot of strong emotions in me. My parents are not at all supportive. Because I have tried to get clean many times but failed, I have no more chances with them. That kept me hooked for a long time and I used it as an excuse to keep using. So what you are doing for your son is remarkable. It must be hard. I have so many dreams for my 13 yr. old daughter and not one of them involve alcohol and drugs, but I know that addiction runs in my family and I know how kids experiment. One thing I will never do and I know you won't either, is turn my back on her. I am afraid that getting clean is a long road and your son may (or may not) battle this for a long time. I agree that by your son confiding in you about his addiction is a huge step and clearly shows he wants change. Even though I wanted change years ago, it took me personally until I was in my thirties before I fully submitted my will over to God and let Him take contol. My prayer is that your son will not have to go through years of hell, getting clean, then relapsing over and over, but gets clean and experiences many sober birthdays! As for the driving thing: I was harsh there too. I believe that he needs to believe in himself as well as you believe in him. Letting him take the car to job interviews is believing in him and he needs that. We addicts tend to hate ourselves for what we do but find it impossible to stop. Letting him drive to job interviews will give him a feeling of confidence and help him feel proud of his new changed ways. Your unconditional love and support will help, even if it takes a while. BTW, how did the interviews go? I do hope you let us know how he is doing from time to time, I think a lot of us care for you all and are praying and hoping. I wish I had a mother like you, that's for sure. The love you have is apparent. Is your husband still looking the other way? That must be hard. You need his support while you are going though this. How scary it must be to have your child go through this. Is this your only child? I am so glad he wants his cdl. I know of a lot of people who are truck drivers. They make good money and definately do need to be drug-free. That is a great incentive!! I've went on the road with my ex several times and it was a lot of fun to see the country. Don't ever give up on him, He will succeed!!! I know the feeling about meetings being smokey. Many of my NA meetings are filled with smoke also. Fortunately, for me, there are some that are non-smoking. I go to mainly church related recovery groups. I do not have athsma, I just hate being in a smoke filled room! I realize with the Narc-anon groups being an hour away, it is not possible to find support there. I do want to stress how important it is for you to have someone to talk to. A pastor, friend, counselor? Many therapists are trained fully in addiction and can help you through this. It is important to maintain your life and not be consumed by what your son is doing. I am not saying you are doing this, I just see how it can happen with a mother who cares so much. Co-dependency works a lot like that. While there are many "things" you can do to "help" your son, you cannot "fix" him. I know your mind knows that, but sometimes your heart can interfere and take over. I just pray you remember yourself. Take care of yourself too and do what your normally do. Go out with friends, take a hot bath, do what you enjoy. There has to be time for you when you don't think of your son. Think of you and others. As you know, addiction is a family disease, so get some suppor and stay healthy!!!! Thank you for sharing what is going on with you and your son. You may think our responses help, but at the same time, you help us too. Your stories make me think, even inspire me. So keep us updated! Thank you for your time in reading my response. If you ever have any questions, do not hesitate to ask. I've been through a lot. Many prayers and wishes to you and your family. Kathy

[jsknow]

figling,

When I first started looking into what we could do about addictions I thought we must eradicate some drugs too but when I ran across the LEAP website (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) and watched a few of their video clips I realized no matter what we do we will never eradicate any drugs. The bottom line is there is way to much money in the illegal drug trade and that's made possible because of the inflated prices caused by prohibition just like it was when alcohol prohibition was in force. From the place of origin to the point of sale illicit drugs can have up to a 17000 percent markup. Most drugs are made from weeds that grow... well like weeds. I'm not up on meth but there are legit uses for heroin and cocaine. I've done quite a bit of reading on both of those. I'm still putting my data together about the treatment programs that really work but one thing is for sure. As long as drugs are illegal they will be easier for kids to get. Regulating them will not be a complete fix for the problem but illegal pricing can't compete with regulated pricing, so we'd end the street trade with regulation. When was the last time you heard of two alcohol dealers shooting it out? Most legit businesses won't sell to kids for fear of losing their business. At least we'd have a handle on the drugs by regulating them. If kids got them there'd be a lot better chance of tracking them back to an adult or a business and ending that source. Crooks don't care who they sell to or how young their customers are. An article in the paper about a big drug bust is nothing but an add for employment for a small dealer that wants to move up, the way things are now. Take some time to read the articles on the site below and be sure to watch the LEAP videos, there's two good ones right under "Click the box to view video". All my best!
Internet explorer: http://jsknow.angelfire.com/home
Other browsers: http://jsknow.angelfire.com/index.html

[sistergoldenhair]

HI everyone. I just joined here today after reading some posts about suboxone. Here's my story. My 22 year old son was just discharged from rehab where he was for 3 weeks. He was sent home on suboxone maintenance. This was Tuesday. I learned alot the past three weeks, as we were required to sit through a five hour class on addiction each time I went to visit my son on the weekends.

So we come home Tuesday night, and Wednesday he is getting acclimated to coming home. He looked up a meeting online, and said he would like to go to the NA meeting. He started talking to my son, had to go to the store, and ended up not making it...ok, first chance. Yesterday he was home all day. Stayed with my other son, and then went to bed early.

My son's friend told me that he told my Addict son that he would attend the local NA meeting with him tonight. Addict son says he would like to go with him.

I was snooping (i know I shouldn't but I am worried sick). I counted his suboxone pills this morning and he slept through his dose last night and didn't take it this morning. Then I see his computer on this website with a thread open of How Long does suboxone block opiates....in other words, how long after my last dose can I use and feel something. I am worried sick.

DS #2, came in when I was crying and he started crying (he is 19) he said he is worried to, but will not see me get sick over this. He said that addict son knows what he has to do, and if he doesn't stay clean, then it's his fault, and there is nothing I can do about it. If he relapses then it's back to rehab, and probably not back home again. He told me to keep busy and get my mind off things because what will be will be. I know he is right, and if addict son needs to hit bottom again, then he has to.

I'm glad that I joined this board and you all seem like some great people. Addict son seems to say all the right things, but I am not seeing them in his action. I am worried sick about all this and would love to just RUN AWAY.

[Robert_325]

It's so strange that you mentioned your son's specific thread. It was on here just recently. I don't know if you read the posts but I remember him well. I knocked him off immediately for trying to find out how quickly the suboxone effects would wear off. I told him it was obvious he was wanting to use. I remember this as I had previously tried to encourage him.

I agree with the advice you received that this isn't your fault. We all have the power to choose. Your son is old enough that he is going to have to start being held accountable for his actions and decisions. Love him but don't pamper him. He needs some tough life lessons along about now. Be there to pick him up but don't sit and cry over something you have no control over. Redirect your frustration. Do something to get yourself out of this funk. If your son continues to use he needs to get into a longterm recovery program ... an inpatient program for at least a month followed by a 60-90 day outpatient intensive care program. Let us know how this goes. I was wondering how your son is doing. Good luck and God bless.

[sistergoldenhair]

Robert

I'm not sure if it is my son you are talking of. Wonder what the screen name was..it's possible it was him, but he only got home this past tuesday after being in an inpatient program for 3 weeks. His first outpatient therapy is this coming Monday. As of this morning, he was out last night, doesn't appear to have used, but who knows. It has been 48 hours since his last suboxone dose (yes, I keep counting them), but he is not changing..the people places and things...I was a little cold to him this morning...and I think he is feeling guilty, as I did go out with my daughter for a bit, and he called my phone after a bit, daughter picked up as I was driving, and he asked her to ask me what I was mad at.

I don't know if I should just keep the cold shoulder up, as I'm sure he knows he is wrong in how he is going about things, or should I just spill it. I don't think I would tell him about counting the pills...might need that tactic still..but I think I might tell him that I am very disappointed that he said he would start going to meetings and he is not.

Lots of drama here yesterday with the other kids, and last night my husband got fed up, packed some things and left. Things are not great with us, and havent' been for awhile. It's a very long story there, and all these stressors are just making matters worse.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by sistergoldenhair