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  1. #1621
    kathleen5hockey is offline Advanced Member
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    Peter, I have never been upset with you at any time. You never said anything to hurt me. Please do not worry about it any longer. I am very happy you have found your faith again. It is the only thing that keeps me going. In the beginning of >>>>>> I always cried at church, now, I do readings and am a minister of communion. I find healing at church. It is truely amazing about your dad, yes, miracles do happen. I know God can break the devils hold on Amy but she has to let Him in. It is all about choices. When Amy used to go to church with me she would get worse, the devil doesn't want her to open her heart to God. A few years ago I reaffirmed my faith at a service in another town. My hubby and son refused to go but Amy and her then bf, higher than a kite showed up and stayed for the service, they sat next to me, I was soooo happy. That was a miracle.

    Thank your church for me, every prayer will bring her closer to salvation and life. May God bless you. You are a miracle too! Keep helping people.
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  2. #1622
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Kathleen, please, there is no need to apologize and I will follow this thread for as long as it's here. I am so much older now, so far removed from being how Amy is. It makes me sad because I know how sad I was back then and I know how sad she is. This is why I always tend to give her a little slack. My mother was like you, she tried to be tough, threw me out, she took me back, threw me out again. I stole from my parents. I lied to them. My dad was like your husband. I was his little girl and he was in denial. Some say tough love might have saved me from addiction years ago. I often think in those days, if not for my parents' support, I'd have been dead long ago. I don't really know the answer. I know you love your daughter. No matter what anyone else says, I KNOW in my heart she is the most unhappy person. That's why this thread hurts. If she was just a bxtch, I'd be on the "get her out now" bandwagon, but she has been through so much trauma in her short life, she is not happy. Drugs mask it for her. I know you have to live your life, but still, I will continue to be heartbroken for Amy as well as you. I can't help it. But again, no need to apologize. This thread is very important to me. It reminds me if where I was. The main thing is when my parents passed away, in 1988 and 1997 respectively, yes, I was on methadone, but also, I was a paralegal, married, raising kids, and living a decent life and they were happy with me. I am not a religious person though I am spiritual and believe in God... I have to say where there is life, there is hope.
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  3. #1623
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Bev and Kathleen ..... As many times as I hurt my parents who did nothing wrong, did nothing to deserve all the stupid things I did, they never turned away from me either. I was gone from home right after high school so there was no throwing me out of the house but their support and love helped get me to where I am today.

    I agree with Bev that no one in this home is in as much pain as Amy. The enemy has control of her actions but she still has emotions and is just hiding them for her own protection so she doesn't have to face the reality she has created for herself. I will continue to keep your family in my prayers Kathleen. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  4. #1624
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Robert, I was touched and surprised by your post. I would have put you in the "throw her axx out, tough love category" but it goes to show how much you don't know about a person. I also was out of the house at 18, 18 months in an unsuccessful drug rehab, then married, then divorced, all the while getting high except for that 18 months in Daytop. At the end of 18 months, I got high in the Daytop facility with a staff member so that was the end of that. Like you, my parents' love, which I didn't deserve, kept me alive. I loved your post to Kathleen because it just says she has no need to feel guilty or wrong for loving her daughter.
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  5. #1625
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by newyorkgal View Post
    Robert, I was touched and surprised by your post. I would have put you in the "throw her axx out, tough love category" but it goes to show how much you don't know about a person. I also was out of the house at 18, 18 months in an unsuccessful drug rehab, then married, then divorced, all the while getting high except for that 18 months in Daytop. At the end of 18 months, I got high in the Daytop facility with a staff member so that was the end of that. Like you, my parents' love, which I didn't deserve, kept me alive. I loved your post to Kathleen because it just says she has no need to feel guilty or wrong for loving her daughter.



    Bev ..... I would not say there is never a time for tough love. But there is always a time for love and compassion. God forgave me for EVERYTHING and if I can't forgive others then I am not worthy of His grace and mercy on my life. I guess that the more years I am clean, the stronger I become in my faith and the older I get the softer I get about trying to save a kid's life. Why else would I still be here on this forum after all this time? I am happy to have surprised you. I guess there is still hope for even me too! God bless.
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  6. #1626
    PeterRabbit2 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey View Post
    Peter, I have never been upset with you at any time. You never said anything to hurt me. Please do not worry about it any longer. I am very happy you have found your faith again. It is the only thing that keeps me going. In the beginning of >>>>>> I always cried at church, now, I do readings and am a minister of communion. I find healing at church. It is truely amazing about your dad, yes, miracles do happen. I know God can break the devils hold on Amy but she has to let Him in. It is all about choices. When Amy used to go to church with me she would get worse, the devil doesn't want her to open her heart to God. A few years ago I reaffirmed my faith at a service in another town. My hubby and son refused to go but Amy and her then bf, higher than a kite showed up and stayed for the service, they sat next to me, I was soooo happy. That was a miracle.

    Thank your church for me, every prayer will bring her closer to salvation and life. May God bless you. You are a miracle too! Keep helping people.
    Kathleen, you're gonna make me cry! You have just removed a ton of guilt I'd been carrying around for over a year. THANK YOU!

    I'll make another request of our priest to mention and ask for prayer in regards to your situation.

    You will always be in my prayers. God be with you, Amy and your whole family. I will thank the congregation by trying to get up and speak to them directly, but I'm not sure if they'd allow that. In any event, I will make sure that every member of our church gets the message. (Incidentally it's a 140mile round trip; I go every Sunday for 9am mass. I live in the Baton Rouge, LA area and my little hometown is ~70mi away. There really is no place like home!)

    Again. Thank you SO much! I'm so glad I didn't do any harm to you.
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    Peter

  7. #1627
    AmIanAddict is offline Member
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    Well, my whole thing is tough love, especially with a case like Amy. The problem with keeping her in the house is the enabling. If you can find a way to keep her around but stop enabling her, great... but I don't see that happening. There needs to be consequences - at least there did in my case. Also, if she is smoking crack and taking other drugs on your premises, you are not putting yourself at legal risk. If you keep her at home with no tough love, she will drug herself to death. First off, she has a job. She is a legal adult. So, she should be paying room and board. Period. That's the way it works. If you give her free room and board, you are basically paying for her drugs because the money that should be going for room and board is going right back into her habit.

    I'm not trying to cause any waves. I'm just trying to provide a big picture view here. It doesn't have to be black and white (kick her out or don't). What i do know is that tough love absolutely needs to be built into it though. So, pick a solution, stick to it, and make sure she has consequences. Otherwise, the chances of her stopping anytime soon is slim to none. I've seen people who's parents didn't give up on them get clean, but then we also see a track record of using that expands decades before they stopped. So, you implement some tough love in some form that you can stick to, and you implement it come hell or high water. Right now, what you're doing clearly isn't working, so something needs to change.
    Last edited by AmIanAddict; 05-24-2011 at 04:54 PM.

  8. #1628
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmIanAddict View Post
    Well, my whole thing is tough love, especially with a case like Amy. The problem with keeping her in the house is the enabling. If you can find a way to keep her around but stop enabling her, great... but I don't see that happening. There needs to be consequences - at least there did in my case. Also, if she is smoking crack and taking other drugs on your premises, you are not putting yourself at legal risk. If you keep her at home with no tough love, she will drug herself to death. First off, she has a job. She is a legal adult. So, she should be paying room and board. Period. That's the way it works. If you give her free room and board, you are basically paying for her drugs because the money that should be going for room and board is going right back into her habit.

    I'm not trying to cause any waves. I'm just trying to provide a big picture view here. It doesn't have to be black and white (kick her out or don't). What i do know is that tough love absolutely needs to be built into it though. So, pick a solution, stick to it, and make sure she has consequences. Otherwise, the chances of her stopping anytime soon is slim to none. I've seen people who's parents didn't give up on them get clean, but then we also see a track record of using that expands decades before they stopped. So, you implement some tough love in some form that you can stick to, and you implement it come hell or high water. Right now, what you're doing clearly isn't working, so something needs to change.



    There is nothing wrong with tough love. I agreed that it is necessary when I posted above. The thing I commented on was that there is also a place for love, forgiveness and compassion.

    I agree Amy should be held accountable for her actions, be made to contribute to her own welfare as she is of legal age and working, but that doesn't mean that a parent stops loving their children because they are messing up badly. You can love them but not like them. Kathleen and I have discussed this subject over and over again since day one when she arrived on this forum.

    Pitching my 18 year old daughter in a ditch to make it or die is not an viable option for me. I am sorry, but I would rather seek other options. Smoking crack or shooting >>>>>> in my house is totally unnacceptable. But I would rather see my child in jail than thrown out on the street to wake up or die. Handcuffs can be a life jacket. That would be tough love that would be an acceptable option in my opinion. It's difficult for a loving parent to pitch their child to the wolves and predators on the streets when they are obviously emotionally unbalanced. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  9. #1629
    AmIanAddict is offline Member
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    I agree, and my post wasn't a specific repy to yours. I was just trying to have a blanket response for all of the recent posts taking both sides. I agree 100% that love and compassion is just as important as tough love, but there must be both. My other point is there are other options rather than just the 2 extremes of just 'pitching them in a ditch' or the other extreme of enabling them to use and not even charging them room and board. The problem most parents run into is implementing the tough love part of the puzzle. I realize and I know from personal experience it is very difficult when it is your kid. I think we're on the same page for the most part. I just think sometimes extreme black and white answers don't apply in situations like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with tough love. I agreed that it is necessary when I posted above. The thing I commented on was that there is also a place for love, forgiveness and compassion.

    I agree Amy should be held accountable for her actions, be made to contribute to her own welfare as she is of legal age and working, but that doesn't mean that a parent stops loving their children because they are messing up badly. You can love them but not like them. Kathleen and I have discussed this subject over and over again since day one when she arrived on this forum.

    Pitching my 18 year old daughter in a ditch to make it or die is not an viable option for me. I am sorry, but I would rather seek other options. Smoking crack or shooting >>>>>> in my house is totally unnacceptable. But I would rather see my child in jail than thrown out on the street to wake up or die. Handcuffs can be a life jacket. That would be tough love that would be an acceptable option in my opinion. It's difficult for a loving parent to pitch their child to the wolves and predators on the streets when they are obviously emotionally unbalanced. God bless.

  10. #1630
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    I agree with Robert's last post 100%. At the same time, I totally understand and agree with IAm's post... This isn't black and white. However, as the mother of two kids in their 30's, I know I would have never thrown them out with no options.(I am blessed that neither of them was the same miserable monster I was). I mentioned above that I spent 18 months in Daytop Village. The reason for that is my parents finally got smart and gave me an option of going or leaving home. I was not ready to live in the street so I got those 18 months under my belt and learned a lot. Unfortunately, it didn't work in the long run and my addiction did run into decades but I'll never ever blame my parents even when they unknowingly did enable me. It's easy to say a parent should do this or that, very hard to implement when you are that parent. Having said all this, I understand what you are saying totally, IAM and I REALLY understand what Robert said.

  11. #1631
    kathleen5hockey is offline Advanced Member
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    I keep praying for a miracle.
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  12. #1632
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey View Post
    I keep praying for a miracle.




    Kathleen ....... Miracles still happen every day. God can do all things, don't ever give up on Him or your daughter. Don't stop loving Amy even if you don't like her right now. Make her accountable but don't ever give up. She will always be your little girl. As long as she is breathing there is hope. Your family is always in my prayers. God bless.
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  13. #1633
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Kathleen, the fact that I'm alive and fairly functional at my age after where I've been and what I've done is a miracle. If it can happen to me it can also be Amy. There is always hope. As hurt and angry as you sometimes feel, please always keep that in the back of your mind.
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  14. #1634
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    i suppose kathleen, thats why i, and others older than me, hee hee, robert and bev, etc etc,

    thats why we seem harsh sometimes coz you know we have been there done that, and we know what it might take to change amys direction

    OR NOT.....

    but we know what might help, otherwise, time, like usual, heals everything....

    i dunno, i just wanna say tonight, yehhhh, ive been there, and you know, its only amy who if she wants to change, WILL, or NOt.....

    miracle or not, its all in the palms of AMY

    no one else, sorry to say that, but its true... its up to her only...
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  15. #1635
    kathleen5hockey is offline Advanced Member
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    I agree. The problem is when I talk to her about the future but it just doesn't get thru. When we do talk I don't yell, I try to explain WHY she should change and how I am willing to help her. She finally admitted to using again, that is huge. I have explained to her how her not living here will help us build a relationship, we have to start fresh. There is to much pain in our home, it is a vicious circle. When she talks it's always things that are not true. Such as last night during our talk she said she bought 2 tickets for a cruise that she wants to take her dad on. Now, she cannot leave the state, doesn't have a >>>>>>>>, money, etc. Then she says she gave a guy money to buy the ticket. I am constantly telling her not to believe everything people say. Think first. I try to build up her self esteem, not break it down.

    Last night also hubby and son were talking, son says most addicts are dead in 7.5 yrs, hubby says it takes 10 yrs to break the habit.

    Drugs are killing me.
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  16. #1636
    AmIanAddict is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey View Post
    Last night also hubby and son were talking, son says most addicts are dead in 7.5 yrs, hubby says it takes 10 yrs to break the habit.

    .
    It's different for every addict. An addict can die at any time they are abusing. The longer it goes, the worse it get, so that theory about taking 10 years to break the habit is backwards. It just gets harder the longer an addict goes on using. Unfortunate, but true.
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  17. #1637
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmIanAddict View Post
    It's different for every addict. An addict can die at any time they are abusing. The longer it goes, the worse it get, so that theory about taking 10 years to break the habit is backwards. It just gets harder the longer an addict goes on using. Unfortunate, but true.



    I agree. Unfortunately anytime an addict uses it can be the time that is fatal for them. Addiction worsens for most as years are accumulated using but a kid can die the first time they use. You don't see many active addicts in retirement centers, they have already died. This is truly a life and death situation every day for an addict. God bless.
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  18. #1638
    PeterRabbit2 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I agree. Unfortunately anytime an addict uses it can be the time that is fatal for them. Addiction worsens for most as years are accumulated using but a kid can die the first time they use. You don't see many active addicts in retirement centers, they have already died. This is truly a life and death situation every day for an addict. God bless.
    This is unfortunately SO true! Profoundly sad but true. What's even sadder is that the addict doesn't feel any immanency of danger!
    Last edited by PeterRabbit2; 05-26-2011 at 12:06 PM.
    Peter

  19. #1639
    shybaybe2003 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with tough love. I agreed that it is necessary when I posted above. The thing I commented on was that there is also a place for love, forgiveness and compassion.

    I agree Amy should be held accountable for her actions, be made to contribute to her own welfare as she is of legal age and working, but that doesn't mean that a parent stops loving their children because they are messing up badly. You can love them but not like them. Kathleen and I have discussed this subject over and over again since day one when she arrived on this forum.

    Pitching my 18 year old daughter in a ditch to make it or die is not an viable option for me. I am sorry, but I would rather seek other options. Smoking crack or shooting >>>>>> in my house is totally unnacceptable. But I would rather see my child in jail than thrown out on the street to wake up or die. Handcuffs can be a life jacket. That would be tough love that would be an acceptable option in my opinion. It's difficult for a loving parent to pitch their child to the wolves and predators on the streets when they are obviously emotionally unbalanced. God bless.
    I agree with robert. I could never throw my child out on the streets if I knew they could end up dead. Calling the cops would be terrible too, but atleast your child would be alive.KAthleen, I have never responded to any of your posts, because I really did not know what to say, it is so heartbreaking,, But i have said a prayer for your daughter, and you are in my thoughts also.
    Shyla
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  20. #1640
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Peter, I think a YOUNG addict doesn't feel the immanency of danger. The older you are, the more aware you became of your mortality. I would NEVER do the things I did way back. I actually stuck needles in my arm, injecting chemicals that could have been cut with anything or could have been any strength. I had no fear. I went into neighborhoods where I could have been raped and killed in a heartbeat. I see it now but didn't see it then. I've always thought Amy's worst enemy is her youth. Young people speed and drag race and do all sorts of things with no fear of death. It is certainly true, especially when using drugs like >>>>>> and crack, that there can be a bad outcome at any time. Let's all hope that Amy grows up before it's too late.

  21. #1641
    kathleen5hockey is offline Advanced Member
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    Thank you for all the responses. Amy's youth is a problem, also the fact she started using at age 14. The biggest problem is she denies using when it is so obvious. Until she admits to it how can she change?

    A few nights ago went to a wake with my mom, saw a few of the girls Amy went to school with. It always upsets me. I can see in their eyes they don't know what to say or how to act. I went up to them, gave them hugs and told them how proud I am of them. Broke my heart again. Why did this happen? What could I have done differently? How can one child be a good kid? Only have to look at my own family. One brother is an addict, the other at age 43 still lives home with mom and doesn't want to grow up, then there is me. Granted, I was a wild child but grew up and moved out at age 18.

    Don't know what the answer is. Have a call into her PO again, he doesn't listen to me, tells me there is nothing he can do because she has a job and doesn't get into trouble. Then he asks Amy are you using again? You know we expect people to relapse, she goes into her practiced song and dance and I look like the idiot. The system is broke but then again she has had so many chances for help.

    Our son is moving to a beach house for the summer, saved all of his money while working. Wonderful for him. I will miss him but he needs to start his own life. Plus, how long can he leave the dog he calls his sister? Maybe the dog can sleep over at his new house!

    Have a wonderful holiday weekend everyone. Again, many thanks for standing by me.

    ps. Peter, I showed my priest your beautiful post to me, she was having a bad day and it perked her up. God has a special purpose for all of us.

  22. #1642
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    oh wow, first thing i would do was not call my daughter a dog.....

    kathleen, why do you even go to probation with amy if she is an adult then>>.?

    a simple piss test would prove if she was using, all the bs she yaks would not even come into it. i still see you getting sucked into her games..

    i would also strip her room every time she wasnt there, and anything i found that was drug related would be chucked out..

    and yeh, someone said earlier, do you charge her board? coz every cent you let her get away with there, will be going on drugs, so you are still helping her use. (maybe unknowingly, but then again we have mentioned this to you before)

    there must be some good qualities amy has got, jeez, for starters she has got a lot of initiative, to be able to come back home, miss out on jail, and then start using again, all while under your roof after you said when she turned 18, thats it..

    i guess the crux of it is, amy has to feel the consequences, and realize for herself she doesnt want to use. and right now, she doesnt want to stop.

    SHE DOESNT WANT TO STOP RIGHT NOW.

    (also, my mum had to come to rehab twice with me, at 20 years old, then bout 22. she never gave up on me either, im not saying to do that, but it has to be different)
    Last edited by Anonymous; 05-27-2011 at 04:43 PM.

  23. #1643
    AmIanAddict is offline Member
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    Kathleen, Cheeky is right here. You keep saying you don't know what the answer is. The answer is simple - quit enabling. Don't give her any money. If you let her live there again and not pay room and board, that is the equivalent of giving her money. Don't put yourself at legal risk by letting her use on your property. I agree that you can still love her even if you don't like her.

  24. #1644
    kathleen5hockey is offline Advanced Member
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    I don't go to probation with her, the PO calls us from time to time. I make her pay me to drive her to work, she gives us some money every Friday. It doesn't work, it's over.

  25. #1645
    AmIanAddict is offline Member
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    She still out of the house Kathleen? It sounds like she is staying with a boyfriend or something last you mentioned. Sometimes kids just turn out that reason for no fault of the parents, and unfortunately there is nothing the parents can do but let them find their bottom.

  26. #1646
    kathleen5hockey is offline Advanced Member
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    Cheeky, I don't call Amy a dog, her brother calls the dog the sister he always wanted. Guess it's his way of dealing.

    Amy has been out of the house for almost a week. I did drop her off at the emergency room to go to rehab, she has not done this. How do I know? Got a call around 2 am a message was left that my daughter is smoking crack in Bpt and to go get her.

    I called her probation officer, asked him to put a warrant out for her arrest. He said he could not do that because her probation in Ct was over last Jan. now it's FL probation. He is just watching her. Watching her die. Will call FL probation after work.

    My house is like a fortress now. All doors and windows closed and locked, even when I am home. Do not trust her.

    Will this ever end?

  27. #1647
    AmIanAddict is offline Member
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    I feel your pain Kathleen. I understand how you feel - you have to protect yourself at some point, and you are. I don't know what to say except, maybe she is finally heading to her bottom, whatever that may be.

  28. #1648
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    whew, kathleen thats good, im glad its your son... yeh me and my bro gave each other some names over the years....

    dunno why probation is ringing you up then, next time they ring, tell em, she is on her own, coz she dont respect you or your house, or your rules, so she can make her own rules and see how far she gets...

    rehab didnt stop me from using, i went twice in my very early 20's but it DID sort out a few issues i needed to sort, like the self harming, and anger towards myself. (was molested as a kid and never dealt with it)

    so rehab tho sometimes doesnt get you clean, it does help put a few things in place, i stopped acting out so bad, and taking my inner anger out at me, i finally got angry at the right reason, it wasnt my fault,.....

    hope amy gets to that point and can see a bit more clear, it will happen, i hope its sooner than later, but yeh, you need to back off a bit, and let her fall as they say...

    all the best anyway
    cheeky
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  29. #1649
    PeterRabbit2 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by newyorkgal View Post
    Peter, I think a YOUNG addict doesn't feel the immanency of danger. The older you are, the more aware you became of your mortality. I would NEVER do the things I did way back. I actually stuck needles in my arm, injecting chemicals that could have been cut with anything or could have been any strength. I had no fear. I went into neighborhoods where I could have been raped and killed in a heartbeat. I see it now but didn't see it then. I've always thought Amy's worst enemy is her youth. Young people speed and drag race and do all sorts of things with no fear of death. It is certainly true, especially when using drugs like >>>>>> and crack, that there can be a bad outcome at any time. Let's all hope that Amy grows up before it's too late.
    Excellent point and well taken, too.
    newyorkgal likes this.
    Peter

  30. #1650
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Of course Kathleen should collect rent money from Amy. That is a given and Kathleen knows it. . But that is almost a non-issue here.

    Quite honestly, for those of us who have really been bottom-feeding addicts, the worst addicts of all, we know very well that there are always ways to findt money for drugs regardless of what Katheen does. We could all raise sufficient funds to support a big habit without working or paying rent either way. If I wanted drugs badly enough I would take yours as a last resort with absolutely no remorse. And I would do even worse things if it was required for me to score. If I happened to hurt you or myself in the process so be it. I didn't care about anyone or anything at that point.

    Where Amy should live is between her and Kathleen but Kathleen can NOT stop Amy from using or prevent her from buying drugs with or without a job.. Amy can EASILY find money to support her drug addiction without ever hitting a iick at an every day job. In fact she can probably raise more money quickly while unemployed than if she had to get a little job making minimum wage. Let's be realistic. We are all adults here and not stupid. God bless.
    newyorkgal and PeterRabbit2 like this.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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