[kathleen5hockey]

OK Robert, have a problem. She shot drugs this weekend. All the signs are there, needles, attitude, sleeping, pin eyes along with the belt she uses. On Sat. her heart was pumping so hard I could see the vein in her neck beating. She has a doctors appointment tomorrow, will have them check again for STD's. Funny, she talks about STD's like it's no big thing. The gonorea (sp) was the desease that caused her much pain, will check for that again. Did she get so sick from shooting along with Suboxone? Hopefully she will go to school tomorrow but she is still awake so probably no. What to do?

On a good note: my husband and I took a day just for us. Went out on the motorcycle for breakfast and just had a great day. It was like being on vacation. We really needed it. The daughter is always on our mind though.

For all out there reading this, you are all somebody's little baby, somebody's life. Always remember that when things get bad. Hopefully hearing the other side will help you to stomp the devil (drugs).

Thank you.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey

OK Robert, have a problem. She shot drugs this weekend. All the signs are there, needles, attitude, sleeping, pin eyes along with the belt she uses. On Sat. her heart was pumping so hard I could see the vein in her neck beating. She has a doctors appointment tomorrow, will have them check again for STD's. Funny, she talks about STD's like it's no big thing. The gonorea (sp) was the desease that caused her much pain, will check for that again. Did she get so sick from shooting along with Suboxone? Hopefully she will go to school tomorrow but she is still awake so probably no. What to do?

On a good note: my husband and I took a day just for us. Went out on the motorcycle for breakfast and just had a great day. It was like being on vacation. We really needed it. The daughter is always on our mind though.

For all out there reading this, you are all somebody's little baby, somebody's life. Always remember that when things get bad. Hopefully hearing the other side will help you to stomp the devil (drugs).

Thank you.

I'm glad you guys were able to get in some time for yourself on a nice ride! That's a great way to spend the day.

It makes me sad to hear about your daughter's relapse. I was hoping as you that perhaps it wouldn't happen. You know all too well that addict's relapse, that is what they do.

I actually read this post you wrote a little while ago and did not reply till now. I had to take some time to think about this. She has a real problem not only with being physically addicted to the drugs but she at least thinks she likes the lifestyle too. So this is double difficult. We've got to come up with a way (at least for now) to protect her from herself. I think it's obvious she has a dismal future if left to take care of herself at this point. I'm not even sure she is capable of adhering to a designated program willingly.

If I remember correctly they have her taking 4mg each day. And if I understand you drive her to pick up her dose each day? Is that correct? If she injects drugs following using the suboxone she WILL become ill with precipitated w/d reacting to the naloxone in the subs. So logically I am assuming she is getting sick if she's shooting dope. But when I think about this more it would seem to me that if she had become REALLY ill after using one time she would probably just tell you to not worry that she had learned her lesson. But being she denied using (when she had obviously used) I'm thinking that somehow she figured a way to shoot the dope without getting sick.

I have thought and thought about the naloxone not working on her and the only way I can think of that POSSIBLY happening would be if she took the drugs long enough after taking the suboxone that the naloxone had worn off (naloxone has a very short half life .. only 4-6 hours). If you think about it they are giving her all of her meds (suboxone) in one dose. I ALWAYS have my people do a split dose, it works better. In addition she is taking 4mg of suboxone. That dose consists of 4mg buprenorphine and 1mg of naloxone. Naloxone is the med that makes a person get sick if they abuse drugs while on suboxone.

What I'm saying is she is only getting a small dose of naloxone and it's probably wearing off early enough so she's able to use the drugs without suffering the consequences of precip w/d. So first off she needs to be doing a split dose and considering her relapsing I would increase the dose to 6mg per day split into two 3mg doses. That way she has the naloxone in her system the entire 24 hours and she has a little more than she is presently getting. She would still be at a low dose. Understand that I am NOT a dr and I can't RX suboxone, this advice comes only from experience, but I can assure you it's from pretty solid experience.

I am probably the biggest advocate of short term sub use of anyone I know but your daughter has a life threatening disease going on here. She MUST stop this behavior before she ends up killing herself, God bless her. She needs to be on a strong enough dose of the suboxone to protect her from herself and it needs to be administered in a split dose.

I would suggest she go on methadone but she is SO young. If there is ANY way to keep that from happening I would try the route I've suggested here first. The drs should have realized what is happening like I've talked about with her current dosing. They should at least give you the second dose for the day when you pick up her other dose so she can do the split dose and you don't have to make two trips. I think the potential benefit is worth the effort to make it happen. I hope this helps you guys. Let us know what happens please. If for some reason the drs won't do what I suggest and she continues to relapse I would go with methadone. Anything is better than her continuing to relapse and act out in her addictive behavior. God bless.

[MaisieC]

Hi Kathleen,

I'm so sorry that you and your family are in this heartbreaking situation. I have been thinking a lot about you since I read your post late last night.

You know you can trust Robert 100% on anything he tells you. I figure he must be right about the suboxone issue. I am wondering about the discipline routine in the house. I know it must be very difficult! But if she's in the bedroom having kinky sex with her boyfriend, it would seem to me that boyfriend should no longer be allowed in the bedroom. I know she'll be pissed, but she needs to understand there are rules. Also this business of her not going to school today because she's was up late. Does she get to decide if she goes to school or not? Please understand I have never been through what you're going through, and I'm just responding to things I notice in your post. I wish there were a way I could help.

Please take care, and God bless you all.

[kathleen5hockey]

Hi Robert, I knew I could count on you! I believe she shot up to soon after the Suboxone, but now she has learned the time limit. Will call the councelor today to discuss it with him. The problem is that he really doesn't want to talk to me, you know the privacy thing.

She has many issues here. I know that without help she will die. How to get her to want help is the problem. She was in Florida for 2 months in rehab, ran away to Miami the first weekend to shoot drugs. In patient, out patient, nothing has worked.

Will keep you posted. Thank you so much for being here, you don't really know how much you are needed!

[hadenough2009]

Hi Kathleen. I am so sorry that your family is going through this. I am going through it with my husband. One thing that bothers me in one of your posts is that your daughter's counselor doesn't "like" to talk to you. Well too d@mn bad! She's your daughter!!! She's 17! You are the person closest to her who is trying to help her and he doesn't want to talk to you? That is super sketchy. Since your daughter is 17, you may not have to even have a release signed to get information. The thing about addicts is that there can't be any secrets. You need to know what is going on with her treatment. I speak with my husband's therapist at least once a week. (He's in an inpatient treatment program). It is very important also to have sessions with your daughter and therapist together. I don't understand why they are not emphasizing this!! Please go up there, go in with her, don't sit in the parking lot. Put your foot down! Sorry I get really worked up about this. You should be able to participate in your daughter's recovery besides just footing the bill!!

Also, you made a comment about she and her boyfriend having kinky sex in her bedroom. Why are they allowed to be in her room unsupervised if you are concerned about this? Please don't take offense to this; you sound like a really great mom, but almost like a pushover. You are letting your daughter have control over you and that isn't fair to you. You are the adult and she is the child no matter how grown-up she thinks she is. If it were my daughter, the boyfriend would not come over unless I was home and they stayed in a common area of the house where they could be supervised. You really sound concerned about this guy. Does he use and/or are you afraid of him? Again, please don't take offense. I am really sorry you are going through this and it must be sooo difficult to not have anyone voice your concerns to that work directly with your daughter.

At my husband's treatment facility, they have phone conferences with me and his parents to be sure that no one has been/will be enabling him when he completes treatment. Addicts just cannot be around someone who is co-dependent. Good luck with everything and God bless!!!

[ddosher]

Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey

OK Robert, have a problem. She shot drugs this weekend. All the signs are there, needles, attitude, sleeping, pin eyes along with the belt she uses. On Sat. her heart was pumping so hard I could see the vein in her neck beating. She has a doctors appointment tomorrow, will have them check again for STD's. Funny, she talks about STD's like it's no big thing. The gonorea (sp) was the desease that caused her much pain, will check for that again. Did she get so sick from shooting along with Suboxone? Hopefully she will go to school tomorrow but she is still awake so probably no. What to do?

On a good note: my husband and I took a day just for us. Went out on the motorcycle for breakfast and just had a great day. It was like being on vacation. We really needed it. The daughter is always on our mind though.

For all out there reading this, you are all somebody's little baby, somebody's life. Always remember that when things get bad. Hopefully hearing the other side will help you to stomp the devil (drugs).

Thank you.

I am so sorry for your troubled daughter. It hurts me for all of you. However, we all must remember that your daughter is young and there is ALWAYS HOPE. You cannot control her, but never give up on her. There is an intuitive feeling I have that says with parents like you, she is gonna come out of this. Have faith. I will continue to pray for you sweetie.

Donna

[kathleen5hockey]

Just to clear some things up. The boyfriend is not allowed in her room, if I leave them 1 second they run upstairs, then I follow. It is impossible to watch her 24/7, believe me I have tried. When I find them upstairs I boot them out. We have taken her door off, put alarms on, I could go on and on. In this state the councelors DO NOT have to talk to me. She is of legal age. Unless she signs release forms no one will talk to me. She has signed the forms but the councelor doesn't think that it appropriate for me to be in the room because she changes her open attitude. How's that for bull! What I thought was kinky sex was really her shooting up. I have climbed on the roof to watch thru her window to spy even when she is sleeping and alone. In this state the parents don't have any rights after the kid is 15. Yep, she ran away a few years ago with a 21 yr old, had the cops at the kids house, would not arrest him, even though she was with him and they were high as kites. There are many issues in this state regarding when a child is a minor. Like I said before, they don't want to talk to me but they sure want me to pay the bills.

Addiction is a multi-faceted problem. The addict needs help as well as the family. Each addict thinks they are just doing it to themselves just not true, it effects everyone. If I told you what my family and daughter have lived thru in the past 3 yrs you would not believe it, heck, I don't believe it and was there! Still don't know how I am still alive.

Thank you for all comments, sometimes you can just be to close to see clearly.

Robert, put a call into the councelor about 3 hrs ago, still no reply. Will track him down this afternoon at the clinic. It's hard to have a job when you are taking care of an addict.

[kathleen5hockey]

Update: She went to the doctors today, they did an EKG and a CAT scan. Her heart beat is very irregular. The Doctor is calling the clinic to lower the dosage of Suboxone. Will talk to clinic tomorrow regarding your suggestion that she be given 1 dose for morning and 1 for evening. It's impossible to get her to the clinic, then to school and get myself to work then go back to clinic. All are in different towns. She is in a good mood today and even went to school.

Robert you are correct in saying she loves the life style because she admits to it. The "regular" kids don't want to be with her anymore and the dealers just love her (money). She says she feels wanted when she is using.

Will keep you informed tomorrow.

[Robert_325]

If she is having other health problems like a heart irregularity that needs to be addressed first obviously. Just don't want her put into a situation where she is apt to use again especially if she is having cardiac issues. Let us know. God bless.

[kathleen5hockey]

All tests came back ok. The councelor has not called me back nor has he been at the clinic, will talk to the director tomorrow. She is playing a game here and it is a dangerous one. Found a urine specimen in her purse this morning have e-mailed the school to see if they took it for drug testing, if so they must have her give another specimen. Something is going on, can feel it in my bones. Will keep you posted.

[kathleen5hockey]

Robert, I have a meeting with the clinic today, have told them I want 2 mil to give her in the morning and will bring her back in the afternoon for the other 2 mil. She is very sick again, made it half way to school before she threw up. She looks terrible. Her EKG and CAT scan came back normal. How can I pursuade them to work with me on the split dosage? Does Suboxone build up in your system?

She said something so sad to me yesterday, "Mom, I wish I could take a vacation from my life." Makes me want to cry.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey

Robert, I have a meeting with the clinic today, have told them I want 2 mil to give her in the morning and will bring her back in the afternoon for the other 2 mil. She is very sick again, made it half way to school before she threw up. She looks terrible. Her EKG and CAT scan came back normal. How can I pursuade them to work with me on the split dosage? Does Suboxone build up in your system?

She said something so sad to me yesterday, "Mom, I wish I could take a vacation from my life." Makes me want to cry.

Only way I would know how to get them to do the split dose is to insist, to point what I've said. It is obvious that she needs more naloxone. That 1mg once per day that she was taking isn't working for her. Don't know if I would say that subs "build up in your system" but the buprenorphine has a long half life and lasts a long time so it kind of does build up. But the naloxone is gone in a few hours, has a very short half life. That's why I think the split dose would be better and I always suggest it, especially for a heroin addict.

If she's sick one of few things are happening. Either one (hopefully) she is just in heroin w/d. That makes her sick as you know. If that's the case she needs more sub than she is taking to minimize the w/d symptoms, to help keep her from being so sick. That will make her want to use being sick. Common sense tells us that. Drs should realize that. Secondly if she's sick she could have used too soon to after taking the subs and that made her sick like the naloxone is supposed to do. Either way it's not good that she has to puke all the time to survive this if she doesn't have to. That just trashes her body leaving her sick and dehydrated. Hope she's drinking lots of fluids if she's sick.

If she really wants a vacation from her life that could be good. No we don't want her going anywhere but she has to get to her absolute BOTTOM before she will be committed to doing this. So getting to that point, no matter how sad it is to watch, is almost required before an addict will allow others to help them the right way, like you're trying to do. Nothing wrong with feeling sadness for your daughter. It makes me sad and I don't even know her. But getting really sick of her life is necessary before she is going to make a comeback I promise. Lots of addicts never live long enough to get to their bottom. They die or end up in jail first. So try to stay focused on the bright side of all this.

For what it's worth I think it's great of you to be willing to take her to the clinic twice a day besides living your life too. That is stepping up and doing ALL you can do for your daughter. You guys are in our prayers. God bless.

[kathleen5hockey]

Thank you Robert! Just heard from her teacher, he did give a urine test yesterday, he will do another when she goes back to school. It is not a good sign that she is getting someone else's urine.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey

Thank you Robert! Just heard from her teacher, he did give a urine test yesterday, he will do another when she goes back to school. It is not a good sign that she is getting someone else's urine.

That just confirms what I've said. She's only using someone else's urine if she is using. The reason she is getting away with using is that they aren't dosing the suboxone properly. This is SOOOOO obvious! Can't believe drs don't see what is so obvious.

I would throw a fit if I had to in order to get them to try what I've said regarding dosing. What have you got to lose? I mean really, is this working pretty well for her doing it their way? They are NOT doing this the way I would for sure.

I would be a thorn in their side until they did the split doses with a high enough dose to actually do her some benefit. I promise you she either needs that or else methadone before something catastrophic happens. Your daughter is still using, we both know it. Something has to give here. Let me know. God bless.

[kathleen5hockey]

Robert, just talked to her councelor, have an appointment with the doctor at 2:30 then she goes to see councel. I don't like this person, asked him to recommend she get split doses, says no, told him about her being sick and he says "well, something must be going on". Of course I said, Yeh! She is using again. Drug world is a very complicated place to be. I cann't piss the clinic off because it is the last and I mean LAST place we have to go. Will explain why I want the split dosage and also they have to up the mil. Wish me luck.

[kathleen5hockey]

Robert, here is an update. Went to see the clinic doctor, they refused to raise it to 6 mil and also to give twice a day. She denied doing drugs even after the doctor said the symptoms she was having was that of a person who used on Suboxone. Next went to the councelor, he did nothing. The doctor actually looked like I was wasting his time, told him for her to get well we all needed to know what medical issues there are. Went to my counceling session tonight and am completely PO'D. Their answer to everything is have her arrested, give up parental rights, give her to the state. She is MY daughter, I love her, no one in the state loves her. She's just another number. Jail is NOT the answer either. Was told my attitude is not good! Of course it's not! I am fighting an up hill battle for my child. Doesn't anybody get it? Anyway, thank's for letting me vent. I am just soooo frustrated.

[Robert_325]

Of course your attitude is being tested, you're fighting for your child's life. Sometimes I am amazed by the lack of compassion from healthcare professionals. I mean granted they see the worst of problems almost daily, they probably get tired of it all, but it shouldn't keep them from being objective. They shouldn't morally judge people, they chose this profession for themselves and should act accordingly.

I admit that sometimes after I've seen the same problems repeated over and over again on this forum that I have kind of snapped at some people a few times out of frustration. And I apologize when I do that when it's uncalled for. We are all human and react to things wrong sometimes. But these guys are getting paid to be professionals. I think it's rather narrow-minded of them to think that no one else's suggestion could be right. They obviously don't know everything or more people would be successful in treatment.

I agree that your daughter is not loved by the state. I don't know that I could ever hand over my 17 year old daughter voluntarily either. You're welcome to vent all you need to here. We'll continue to keep you both in prayer. Keep me posted. God bless.

[kathleen5hockey]

Hi All,

Update on daughter. This weekend went well, she stayed home for her brothers birthday. She is getting away from the boyfriend which is good because we don't like him to much. She went for coffee with a few "old" friends from the last school she was in. Was very happy to see them, made her feel like her old self again. Had a discussion with her telling her not to disclose her past, it's over, only talk about her future. She went to school today, thought the teacher would fall over! Two Mondays in a row. Things are looking up.

Thanks for being here.

[Freedom4me]

Kathleen,
I have been away for a few days but so happy to hear your daughter is doing better. I'm so happy for you. Keep the faith!

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey

Hi All,

Update on daughter. This weekend went well, she stayed home for her brothers birthday. She is getting away from the boyfriend which is good because we don't like him to much. She went for coffee with a few "old" friends from the last school she was in. Was very happy to see them, made her feel like her old self again. Had a discussion with her telling her not to disclose her past, it's over, only talk about her future. She went to school today, thought the teacher would fall over! Two Mondays in a row. Things are looking up.

Thanks for being here.

That's good news. Getting away from him is imperative for her success I believe. I know you're relieved. She doesn't need a using buddy, she needs recovery. Keep us posted. God bless.

[anotheraddict]

Kathleen,

So happy to read the great news about your daughter! Hope things continue to improve for the both of you. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

[kathleen5hockey]

The daughter went to school again!!! She even went to my brothers with my mother and me for his birthday. Heard her tell the boyfriend that she wanted to go see her cousin who is 15. While she was at the clinic nosey mom went thru her purse and found a crack pipe. Broke it and threw it out. Probably from when she was with the boyfriend on Sat. because Sunday she was out with dad on his Harley.

I was a teen in the 70's so most of this stuff should not even surprise me, but it does.

As always - thank you for being there for me, you will never know just how much this helps!!!!!!

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey

The daughter went to school again!!! She even went to my brothers with my mother and me for his birthday. Heard her tell the boyfriend that she wanted to go see her cousin who is 15. While she was at the clinic nosey mom went thru her purse and found a crack pipe. Broke it and threw it out. Probably from when she was with the boyfriend on Sat. because Sunday she was out with dad on his Harley.

I was a teen in the 70's so most of this stuff should not even surprise me, but it does.

As always - thank you for being there for me, you will never know just how much this helps!!!!!!

Kathleen ... I was a teen in the 60s and I promise you it was nothing then or in the 70s compared to what it is now. I was no angel, I was a gangster. But today the kids are running around with fully automatic weapons, people are getting killed in random drive-by shootings, and those damn crack pipes were the real start of all that in the 80s. Crack hit this country at the expense of the children of your/my generation. I hate freakin crack! I would rather be around a junkie any day than a crack head. Crack is the devil, it makes people do things they would never do even on junk. Please continue to clean out her purse. God bless.

[kathleen5hockey]

Oh no! Crack is WORSE than shooting heroin? What are the side effects of smoking crack and taking Suboxone? What are the effects of crack such as on heroin she sleeps? Now I am worried again! Does this ever stop?

[anotheraddict]

I think you will always worry. I hate to say that. But, from what I have read, many parents still check pupils and watch for signs of use years and years after the kick. It takes a long time to rebuild the trust...

This is, unfortunately, one of the reasons that I never flat out told my parents I was addicted and I was kicking. I suffered in silence in an effort not to hurt my parents. It seems to be working so far...

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by kathleen5hockey

Oh no! Crack is WORSE than shooting heroin? What are the side effects of smoking crack and taking Suboxone? What are the effects of crack such as on heroin she sleeps? Now I am worried again! Does this ever stop?

Smoking crack with ANYTHING is bad news. The heart only beats so many times. Crack makes one's heart race just like meth. I don't know that one is worse than the other necessarily. I have never known a crack head that wouldn't do heroin or vice versa. They both suck. They're both probably equally evil. It's like which level of hell is the worst? I hate them both. It just breaks my heart to see a seventeen year old little girl in such a dark place. I will keep you guys in my prayers. God bless.

[kathleen5hockey]

Bingo! Robert, you have been right continually. Just last week we had the racing heart problem, Ekg test. I have to believe my daughter will come out of this somehow. How hard it must be for her to wake up everyday to her own personal hell. My heart breaks. To the post above, you are a person who truely loves their parents. I am sorry you have gone thru the hell alone. Maybe you are stronger for it. Maybe my love clouds and masks the truth.

[Robert_325]

kathleen ... your love for your daughter has NOT clouded or masked the truth. You're fighting for your daughter's life! You're scrambling and running in circles trying to figure out what to do, anything, just how to save her.

She will hopefully survive if you don't allow her BS addiction to succeed in blowing smoke at you. This is going to be a LONG hard road for everyone involved. Just remember it's the drugs doing this and not her.

Somewhere inside of that addict your little girl is still there. Don't EVER give up on her. This is when she really needs her mom. And for what it's worth my mom never turned her back on me and it took until I was 50 years old to get clean. But she was always there for me. My one regret is that my dad didn't live long enough to see me clean. He sees me today though. It's about doing WHATEVER it takes for her to live. God bless.

[anotheraddict]

Kathleen,

I wish that I had been able to have my parents' support, but I was too scared to ask. Even after I got a DUI for the drugs, they didn't realize that there was a problem. I am not blaming them in any way, just sharing the situation.

Your daughter will be eternally grateful for everything you are doing for her. I know it sucks right now, but we have to hope for the future She CAN make it through this. And we are here to help in any way we can.

Jean

[kathleen5hockey]

Question, is a crack pipe about 7" long glass cylindar? Can she smoke heroin too? Again, thank you for everything, all of you. I have learned so much here, I have to learn the other side of addiction, from the addicts point of view. Yes, I am running in circles but comming here helps me stop and think.