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Starting Suboxone
  1. #1
    LadayBrownEyez is offline New Member
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    Question Starting Suboxone

    Hi Robert_325,

    I found an answer to my last dilemma I'd had written to you about. I did find a ride to the methadone clinic, and my last day there is this Sunday. Currently my dose is at 35 mg (as of today, I went down 5 mg), and by Sunday it will be 30 mg. The following Wednesday (three days later), I have an appointment with a Suboxone Doctor at 9:45 AM. I'm really excited. These past two weeks have been tough going from 65 mg to 35 mg so fast, but I'm just hanging in there. All I can do I guess.

    My question to you is, do you think three days is enough? Or should I skip Sunday's dose too, and just go down to 30 mg tommorow? Cause with the appointment being at 9:45 AM on Wednesday, and my last dose being at 9:00 AM on Sunday, do you think that's enough time. I don't want to go into PW, I've done that before, I'm all set!! And, I've been feeling like hell obviously these past two weeks, do you think that very day I take suboxone I will be better and able to function?

    I'm SO fatigued. A lot of people say they cannot sleep during w/d, I'm exhausted. All I want to do is lay in bed and sleep. I do get up here and there, I've made myself take short walks, and keep the house as clean as possible, but everything - no matter how simple is a huge chore. And I have a two year old girl, I feel bad for her that I can't give her the attention and playtime she needs. She's with my Mom a lot right now.

    Hopefully he just writes me the script so I can induce myself, but I have a feeling I will be induced there. I've heard because I was a methadone patient I should be put onto Subutex? Do you think that's true? And lastly, is anyone else getting these films? I guess that's the newest Suboxone craze is the film? Do they make a Subutex film?

    Thanks!
    Wish me luck!

  2. #2
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadayBrownEyez View Post
    Hi Robert_325,

    I found an answer to my last dilemma I'd had written to you about. I did find a ride to the methadone clinic, and my last day there is this Sunday. Currently my dose is at 35 mg (as of today, I went down 5 mg), and by Sunday it will be 30 mg. The following Wednesday (three days later), I have an appointment with a Suboxone Doctor at 9:45 AM. I'm really excited. These past two weeks have been tough going from 65 mg to 35 mg so fast, but I'm just hanging in there. All I can do I guess.

    My question to you is, do you think three days is enough? Or should I skip Sunday's dose too, and just go down to 30 mg tommorow? Cause with the appointment being at 9:45 AM on Wednesday, and my last dose being at 9:00 AM on Sunday, do you think that's enough time. I don't want to go into PW, I've done that before, I'm all set!! And, I've been feeling like hell obviously these past two weeks, do you think that very day I take suboxone I will be better and able to function?

    I'm SO fatigued. A lot of people say they cannot sleep during w/d, I'm exhausted. All I want to do is lay in bed and sleep. I do get up here and there, I've made myself take short walks, and keep the house as clean as possible, but everything - no matter how simple is a huge chore. And I have a two year old girl, I feel bad for her that I can't give her the attention and playtime she needs. She's with my Mom a lot right now.

    Hopefully he just writes me the script so I can induce myself, but I have a feeling I will be induced there. I've heard because I was a methadone patient I should be put onto Subutex? Do you think that's true? And lastly, is anyone else getting these films? I guess that's the newest Suboxone craze is the film? Do they make a Subutex film?

    Thanks!
    Wish me luck!







    LadayBrownEyez ........There are no subutex films. That is strictly for suboxone. I always prefer working with subutex personally simply because it doesn't have naloxone in it. About 15% of the people I've worked with over the years react adversely to it, though most drs will say I'm crazy. I may be crazy, but I know what I'm saying about the naloxone is accurate. Subutex is just easier to work with.

    Only three days at 30mg of methadone is NOT very long especially considering you've dropped from 65mg in only two weeks. That is an extremely agressive taper off methadone. It makes doing the induction properly even more important than it normally is. And the induction is possibly the most important part of this whole deal. I'm very serious about that!

    VERY IMPORTANT ..... you can't plan your induction based on a calendar. I've seen people coming off methadone need from 36 hours to close to a week to avoid precipitated w/d. Here is a link to the process I've used working with people on subs here for years. It's proven to be successful for a long time.

    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

    Read the link CLOSELY and pay special attention to the INDUCTION section at this time since you're just beginning the process. Being inducted properly includes being on the lowest dose possible. Most of the sub drs will have you on 16mg or more by the time you're done with the induction. I induct people right here ALL THE TIME on between 4-6mg. Sometimes I get it done with as low as 1.25mg. It's the process of giving you the very smallest increments at a time and allowing them ample time to work. Whereas most sub drs will give you 4-8mg, then repeat that until they have you up at 16mg or more which is crazy. No one needs that much. The way these sub drs get you on such a high dose is why so many people end up here trying to get off subs.

    In the INDUCTION section of the link you will see a link to the COWS (clinical opioid w/d scale) worksheet. Regardless of what anyone tells you if you score a MINIMUM of 26 on the worksheet you will be okay during the induction. YOU CAN'T PLAN THE INDUCTION WITH A CALENDAR. If you follow the COWS worksheet scoring and score a 26 minimum you will do fine whether it takes two days or four days. If you start too soon and go into precipitated w/d you'll be so sick you won't even believe it. Here is the COWS link even though it's also found in the previous link in the INDUCTION section.

    http://www.drugs.com/resources/opioi...wal-record.pdf

    If you can convince your dr that you aren't ready to be inducted yet, get the meds and go home and I will induct you right here if you want me to. It's your call. But try to get subutex if you can, and tell the dr you want them because they have a generic,(which they do ..... it's buprenorphine) and costs a fraction of what the suboxone costs either in pill form or the film strips. And get the 8mg pills as they don't cost much more than a 2mg pill so there is no reason to buy 2mg pills.

    Hope all that helps. Let me know if you want me to help you do this and if you can get the dr to give you the subutex generics and take them home. I promise this will go so much better for you than doing the process at the dr. And I would stop the methadone by eliminating the Sunday dose too. You've done all this very quickly and that extra day could be very important to you being successful regardless who does the induction with you. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 10-29-2010 at 02:47 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  3. #3
    LadayBrownEyez is offline New Member
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    Well now I feel like an ass. You took so much time to respond, I almost feel like I've wasted your time, but I'm going to admit defeat here instead of lying cause I really need your help.

    I did my last dose of Methadone on Sunday, October 31st @ 7:00 a.m. I was going to skip the dose all together BUT my little girl, almost three, wanted to go trick-or-treating this year and I didn't want to be anymore miserable or physically ill than I already was. Had it not been for her, I'd have skipped the dose. By Sunday, like you mentioned, the taper was so aggressive I had scored a 16 on the COWS that evening.

    Today I went to my appointment, and by the time I arrived I was crawling out of my skin and wanted to kill people. I than found out I would not be induced in the office and although I knew in the back of my mind I was fortunate, seeing you could induce me properly, I was even more aggressive. By the time I got to the pharmacy I was in agony. By the time I got the script in my hand there was one under my tongue (8 mg) before I knew it, about twenty minutes later some relief. I than took another half (4 mg), and tried to eat something 15 minutes after it dissolved. Still felt ill.

    I should have come on here and talked to you before I took another 1.5 tablets I was prescribed 3 , 8 mg tablets per day!!! The Doctor said that because I was a methadone patient for so long, and had such an aggressive taper, I might not be successful on Suboxone, or might need a higher dose? I know that when I was previously on Suboxone I was on 16 mg per day before switching to methadone (cost). Now I'm still feeling fairly bad, but I'm certainly not taking anymore Suboxone. I really wished I could have waited and let you induce me, but my stupid addict brain was screaming and I seriously acted before thinking...

    It's just day one, so I'm sure maybe you have a suggestion or two about getting stable on a lower dose. I'm kicking myself in the ass because I didn't get on here and read your post prior to my appointment. And I did try for Subutex, he didn't bite. I feel he was extremely leary of me, as he mentioned my "well rounded" background/experience with drugs. You know that questionairre where they ask you what you took, how much, last time you took it...I was honest with my answers, and any Doctor would probably raise an eyebrow. I think they're rationalization is anyone taking Suboxone and asking for Subutex wants to still be able to play. Give it some time, I'll get the Subutex.

    I'm going to go take a walk around the house, have a smoke and possibly take a bath. My head feels okay, a little spacey but not too bad. My body, I don't know. I'm certainly not in severe w/d. Thanks for all your help, and I truly appreciate it. I hope your still willing and able to help me get on/stay on track.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by ddcmod; 11-03-2010 at 02:44 PM.

  4. #4
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    It sounds like you have it under control to me.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  5. #5
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    ladybrowneyes ...... It's no big deal. It doesn't bother me at all to spend close to an hour explaining how I can have you inducted at probably 3mg, make this work great for you, help you turn your life around by taking time out of the next two months of my life at NO cost to you whatsoever, and then you go and slam down three 8mg pills without even taking the time to read the post I wrote. That is pretty freakin inconsderate besides screwing up the whole induction..

    Your sub dr fed you a line of BS just like I told you they always do. I have a lot of people on this forum posting to me and I'm very busy to just be blown off like that. You posted here searching me out asking for my help, I didn't come looking for you.. You need to think really hard about this and decide if you really think I should believe you to bother messing with this.

    I have a church function I'm going to this afternoon and tonight. Think about it tonight and let me know tomorrow if you are serious about this or not. It's your life not mine. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  6. #6
    LadayBrownEyez is offline New Member
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    Cool

    Chill out man...seriously. I know that was inconsiderate, very. And I again, apologize profusely. Definately inconsiderate of me, but my addict mind and my best choices brought me to this point, so obviously I haven't made that many good ones. Keep that in mind when dealing with addicts. I was honest with you and I apologized, as I will again. I feel great actually after having "slammed" down three eight mg pills (way to make someone feel like a loser), and I can taper and adjust myself on my own. Your right, I have it under control, and don't need to waste your time. After having my initial questions about methadone and suboxone, I believe I'm off and running in the right direction. Best of luck, and may God bless you!
    Last edited by LadayBrownEyez; 11-04-2010 at 11:55 AM.

  7. #7
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    LadayBrownEyez ........ I will chill out! All I was doing with my reply was seeing how you would react to some criticism. You don't have to explain TO ME how to act when I'm working with addicts. I've done it a long time and know that lots of addicts will totally take advantage of others like they've always done if allowed to. I'm not your girlfriend or boyfriend, or someone you can walk on after you asked me to help you.

    When this kind of thing happens people will ALWAYS do one of two things. They either say." I'm sorry, I was inconsiderate but can we still move forward together and I promise to pay attention from now on" ..... or else they react like you just did getting all defensive acting like they've been abused and mistreated by ME! They come back and say, "I don't need you or anyone else, I can do this fine by myself" when all anyone here did (ME) from your first post was try to help you.

    One of the first things an addict NEEDS is to learn a little bit of humility instead of "playing the victim," and whining about how badly they've been treated. That's the way addicts treat their family members and others they've stepped on while they've been using. I've never turned my back on ANYONE ... not one single person that was willing to participate and realize they didn't know everything.

    Sometimes an addict NEEDS to eat a little crow and realize their place in this deal. It's called tough love whether you like it or not. I won't beg anyone to let me help them, but I've certainly NEVER refused one single person EVER that asked and showed a little repsect.

    I'm clean and I'm not the one needing help. Maybe you should think about that before you get so mad. That 24mg dose is going to come back and bite you in the butt big time, you can count on it. God bless.

    .
    Last edited by Robert_325; 11-04-2010 at 12:57 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  8. #8
    T. Lincecum is offline New Member
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    I have tried suboxone twice and sebutex(I know I am spelling wrong) once, every time was a failure, and Very painful. However, a friend let me have a little once when I was still using because I was sick, and it worked WONDERS.

    From my own axperience and what doctors have told me, it's all in the timing. You need to be strong and wait until you are in full withdrawal, or else you will be sorry....

    Methadone to Suboxone sounds very tricky(and risky)

    I am currently on methadone and it works, but I have no life. I have gone down on my dose a lot, but about an hour after I take it, I get weak in the knees and no matter where I am, I pass out for hours. I have had a lot of embarrassing public incidents, and sometimes my boyfriend will find me on the floor in random areas of the house! But if I miss just one dose, I am very ill. People have told me it could be a case of very fast metabolism.

    What's wrong with me???!

  9. #9
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    T.Lin... Have you considered that your methadone dose is too high?? If you get weak in the knees and pass out for hours one hour after dosing, it sounds like you're getting stoned. Meth to sub might be tricky. I don't know but I do know it's definitely doable. I was on methadone for 30 years, on 25 mgs. the last 2 or 3 of them. I took notthing for 72 hours, from Friday 9 a.m. methadone dose tto Monday 9 a.m. suboxone dose. I was in w/d but it wasn't unbearable. If you take the sub too soon, you go into miserable precipitated w/d which might be what happened to you those times. The sub took all my withdrawal away. The problem was the dose of sub was too high. It made me nervous and jittery and I couldn't sleep. So I tapered the sub from 16 mg. start. I started to feel "normal" when I got to around 4 mg. The biggest problem I think is that methadone is so addictive that the switch tto another opiate (sub) just keeps the addiction going. I am down to 1/2 mg. of sub but can't seem to go all the way - but that's just me.

  10. #10
    LadayBrownEyez is offline New Member
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    Robert_325,
    First of all, I'm not sure who you think your talking to, or who you think you are, but I am not some lost street punk bowing at your feet nor scrambling for your direction. I have eaten more humble pie than you could ever dream of guy. I pissed and ******** all over my friends and family, I lost everything to drugs and addiction, and I regained as much as I could by practicing and applying a twelve step program to my life, and doing the tedious and painful work it entailed. While we're on that subject, I would be very interested to know what recovery program you are applying when "dealing with your addicts", because if it's anything even remotely related to AA or NA, you ought to first start by burying your head in Step Ten. YOU have no right to teach me, or anyone else any kind of lesson, nor put anyone "in their place". There is no such thing as "justifiable anger nor justifiable self-righteousness".

    Also, I don't appreciate your sarcastic tone and your reference to you not being my boyfriend or girlfriend, whom "I can walk all over". No Robert, your right. Luckily for me, and for you, you are not my boyfriend, as I buried him two months ago due to severe complications of COPD, and whom I cared for and tended to for many years prior to his death. So if your as smart as you think you are, I hope you comprehend that I don't find your remarks amusing at all, and maybe you ought to reconsider your cocky, "know it all" tone.

    In all my years of recovery I've never had a Sponsor, Priest or any guiding member throw out a line to see if I would bite. That's not the way we show each other tolerance and compassion, by making examples out of people. That is how people who are consumed with "self righteousness" and have let their ego get way out of control act. I'm sorry...before I go any further, from reading your posts you have proclaimed yourself as a fellow addict as well, so I am responding on that assumption. If I am wrong, I will promptly admit that, as I have done in my prior posts, which you have somehow twisted or misinterpreted into me being defensive. But it's okay Robert, as a fellow addict, I understand and will show compassion and forgiveness

    I believe in God as my higher power, my Lord and savior, and I believe that everything happens according to his will for us. Although we are taught to "Lean not on our own understanding", I'm going to take a guess and say that you and I crossed path's for a reason, and it couldn't be anymore opposite of the reason you think it is. I think you my friend, need a reality check, and need to examine whether or not you have let your addiction manifest in other area's of your life i.e. your ego. Your a very smart man, I certainly won't deny that. More so your a very kind person to devote your time to helping people who find themselves in hot water with Suboxone BUT, you are one drink, one drug, one pill away from the very devastation you are attempting to pull people from, you just haven't taken it YET (Your Eligible To). That being said, what your doing does not entitle you to act like God or tell me or anyone what I am, who I am, or what I meant about anything. I did not become defensive, I admitted to my wrongs, and I remain continually vigilant about my wrongs or character defects. You have no right to take my inventory Robert, I don't care how many followers or posts you have; how much experience you have with Suboxone etc. Most important, you have no right to lash out at me because I told you I didn't need your help any further, and it looks like you took that as an insult, or some type of offense. How dare I make my own choices? Who am I to take control of my own life....

    I'm well aware that my initial dosage was too high, hence I asked for your help and guidance. The dose has been adjusted, and will continually be adjusted. I am not a screw up or a moral failure because I didn't "follow your directions". I feel fantastic, and I know that I am moving in the right direction.

    My friend and fellow addict, I have taken an hour of my time to compose this last response, and enclose the following excerpt for you. I am going to agree to disagree with you and will no longer continue this exchange of arrogance with you. I thought this reading would be helpful for you, as an out of control ego will bite you in the ass harder than any pill at any dose, I guarantee it.

    "We may have trouble knowing we are wrong simply because we intend to be right. For instance, at some point in our recovery, we may attend a group business meeting firmly convinced that we know what the group should do. We've studied all sides of the issues. We forcefully share our views at the meeting. We're so convinced of our rightness that we fail to recognize our self-righteousness. We are blind to the harm we are causing others by not respecting their views as much as our own. Often we act in ways that are contrary to our values, yet we expect others to live up to our standards. For instance, we may find ourselves flinching when we hear someone gossiping about others. Following such an occurance, we are likely to be self-righteous--until we catch ourselves doing the very same thing. Other situations can occur when we become super critical of others. For example, we may have a tendency to have high expectations of others; however, we have a variety of excuses at hand for why these standards don't apply to us! If we find ourselves in the midst of such moral uncertainty, we can use the principles of the Tenth Step to help us find clarity". It Works How And Why, The Twelve Steps and The Twelve Traditions of Narcotics Anonymous
    Last edited by LadayBrownEyez; 11-08-2010 at 12:25 AM.

  11. #11
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    LadayBrownEyez ........ Like I said before you're the one who came here searching me out taking up and wasting a bunch of MY time. I don't get paid to sit here and babysit addicts. I know, you've done more of everything than someone like me. You can throw fits and scream all you want. I certainly won't waste the time to reply to all of that nonsense you just wrote, I didn't even read it all, nor will I tell my history of who I think I am or anything else. I wish you luck in your recovery.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 11-08-2010 at 11:15 AM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  12. #12
    Someoneelse is offline New Member
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    I'm a new member here and I stumbled upon this thread with a Google search. I was reading and thinking, 'Robert is a really bad person.' But, I got to the end and started thinking about it and if I'm right I was wrong. I had to register just to say, (and I don't know why) sometimes we need an opponent to feel the motivation we need to defeat our enemy, I guess. I'm gonna find a way to take that advice Robert_325. Thanks.

  13. #13
    Mds1504 is offline New Member
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    I just want to say that I was reading this forum and like the person before me... I had to add my input, for future readers! I have been a suboxone patient for four years now. I disagree with Robert325 150%!!! I found it interestingly funny that at the bottom of his posts it says "I am not a doctor" - people should remember that when accepting his advise! I realize that the girl asked for an [opinion], but that should have been all he gave! Whoever gets that involved and angry over a forum post has issues and if I were her... I wouldn't have replied back! I don't know who he thinks he is, but any person who guides addicts does not talk like that first of all, and secondly, wouldn't waste their time!
    With that being said, any person on here looking for help or answers that can make a difference in your life and potentially be harmful to yourself... Ask a professional! Others can give insight and share through personal experiences, but that's about all! Each and every person is different in their recovery. I for one, can thank suboxone for getting me where I am today- sober, happy, and healthy! Like most addicts I have tried everything prior to suboxone, and nothing compares! Most of all, you HAVE to want to be clean! Nothing will work otherwise! I think that people should think about what they post before doing so... These are peoples lives! I wish everyone the best and hope that my post helps remind some that only a doctor and yourself know what's best for you! If you give suboxone a chance and take it as directed, it can be a lifesaver! Methadone, in my opinion is not the best choice for addiction! It can work, but 9 out of 10 times it just postpones the final attempt at sobriety! If I could give anyone one piece of advice it would be to stay away from methadone, or if you are already on it, do what you can to switch to another method. I have never felt more horrible than I did on methadone! And people tend to be on doses higher than they need! 20mgs is enough for 80% of addicts no matter what you took for a drug dose! Please... Consult with real doctors and use these forums strictly for discussions and sharing personal experiences. As for Robert325, I think you need to retire from "helping people" with addiction! Seriously! You dont belong giving anyone tips and help, especially when you act the way you do! I feel sorry for anyone who seeks your advice! Good luck to all!!!

  14. #14
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Mds ..... no one here asked for your opinion and from your one post here no one cares much. I certainly don't care what you think, won't even waste my time defending myself. My record here over the years speaks for itself. You've been on meds too long and are acting like a typical addict. I won't fight with you. Just shout all you care to. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  15. #15
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    Default yall need to chill.

    First, Robert is a good dude. he helps tons of people on here.

    If you read his post he's right. he's just trying to give you the hard truth.

    That doctor should be in jail for prescribing you so much. that's total nonsense. I'm sooooo glad i got mine on the street (one of my best friends) cause my buddy told me the truth that all you need is a little bit.(1 - 2 mg a day) to keep from bein sick.

    you will struggle to get off such a high dose. Trust me. i STRUGGLED to get off a low dose. and so do sooooo many others on here.

    It's not too late. just drop straight to 1 to 2 mg's. you havn't been on long enough to be stuck that high.

  16. #16
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    Mds. I have to tell you honestly, after being on sub for 4 years, there is very litttle difference from being on methadone. They are both long acting, very strong opiates and getting off at this point would be equally difficult. I am not criticizing. I am all for maintenance treatment for certain people. Whatever works for a person is the best thing. When used as a maintenance drug, though, sub is just as hard to kick as methadone. To each his own.

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