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methadone and xanax
methadone and xanax
I am on 115 mg of methadone and 4 mg of xanax and everything has been OK. I've been dopesick for a week now. Can anyone help. The docs think I'm crazy for feeling this.
How long have you been on the methadone???? I doubt very much that they will raise your methadone dose when your taking 4mgs of xanax (benzodiazepine).Is there anything else that you've started taking recently or stopped taking recently that would cause this wd??....Dave
Methadone #2 Killer Drug in U.S.
I'm writing to you about the methadone epidemic taking place in the United States .
I am writing on behalf of HARMD (Helping America Reduce Methadone Deaths). We are the families of victims and those yet to be victims of methadone. I have come together with many other families throughout the United States who have lost loved ones to methadone.
On June 24th 2006 I lost my fiancé (Ron) to methadone prescribed by a physician with a combination of other medications that acted as additives to the Methadone. He was a professional Jai Alai player at Hamilton Downs Jai Alai in Jasper, FL and had knee surgery after an injury on the court. He became addicted to the percocet he was prescribed. He checked hi mself into Greenleaf in Valdosta , GA (part of South Georgia Medical Center ) for detoxification. Upon entering the facility he was drug tested and did not come up positive for opiates or any other drugs (he had stopped taking the percocet 4 days before entering the facility). He was prescribed by a Dr. excessive amounts of methadone (for a person without a known tolerence) with valium and Klonopin. On the fourth day in detox he died sometime between 2am and 1pm in the afternoon (he was never checked on in all of those hours). When hi s body was found at 1pm he was already in rigor mortis. He was extremely neglected bordering abusive considering he was supposed to be monitored every 1/2 hour according to hi s medical charts. The night before he died he was complaining of migraines and vomiting, apparently the staff thought he was still experiencing withdrawals (but again he had NO drugs in hi s system upon entering the facility) and was not concerned about these symptoms. The symptoms of methadone toxicity mimic withdrawal symptoms; physicians and staff must be very cognizant of the complex properties and metabolization of methadone. There were many errors made in my fiancé's death including the fact that he was given numerous amounts of additive medications such as benzodiazepines (valium and klonapin). He had only been taking percocet for about 4 months and according to the DSM IV he wouldn't be an appropriate candidate methadone maintenance treatment.
We are asking government agencies to enact stricter guidelines in prescribing methadone for any reason. It must be mandatory that all doctors be certified and trained in the pharmacology of methadone; inpatient stays must be required during induction to methadone; all staff be extensively trained in monitoring methadone patients for symptoms of toxicity. Clinic patients should be tested for legal and illegal drugs that are taken with methadone to get “high” or experience “euphoria” such as benzodiazepines, alcohol, cocaine, >>>>>>, marijuana etc… and face severe consequences / mandatory detoxification from methadone program. When presenting inebriated at clinic, clinic should also document such activity as well as prevent client from driving. Take home doses for all patients receiving methadone should be eliminated thus preventing the risk of diversion or precautions such as pill safe should be implemented.
Current statistics show that nearly 4000 people a year die from methadone. These deaths are mostly happening to pain management and detoxification patients within the first 10 days of taking initial dose. Most of these deaths are related to methadone prescribed with other medications that react as additives with the methadone. Diversion of methadone is a serious problem because it lands this most deadly drug on streets. Statistics also state that methadone is contributing to more deaths nationwide then >>>>>>e and only second to cocaine deaths.
The government did take notice after the 2003 record number of deaths associated with methadone and the Bush administration responded by gathering the top experts on drug overdoses, doctors, researchers, and medical examiners, as well as representatives from the federal Drug Enforcement Administration, Food and Drug Administration, and Substance Abuse and Mental Health Association. Finn and Tuckwiller (2006) report that “the man hired to research and write the report based on the conference, as well as background paper for conference participants, was Stewart B. Leavitt, and addiction specialist whose work is funded by the makers of methadone”. Stewart B. Leavitt PhD served as researcher/writer for A National Assessment of Methadone-Associated Mortality: Background Briefing Report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Stewart B Leavitt also writes Addiction Treatment Forum Methadone Dosing & Safety in the Treatment of Opioid Addiction which is funded by Mallinckrodt, Inc. a manufacturer of methadone. My question is why hasn't a team of independent researchers not funded by pharmaceutical companies; a person or group of people that stand to gain no financial benefit on the outcome of the studies been hired to conduct the research? Finn and Tuckwiller (2006) report that “the man hired to research and write the report based on the conference, as well as background paper for conference participants, was Stewart B. Leavitt, and addiction specialist whose work is funded by the makers of methadone”. Stewart B. Leavitt PhD served as researcher/writer for A National Assessment of Methadone-Associated Mortality: Background Briefing Report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Stewart B Leavitt also writes Addiction Treatment Forum Methadone Dosing & Safety in the Treatment of Opioid Addiction which is funded by Mallinckrodt, Inc. a manufacturer of methadone. On the forum associated with his website several of the clinic participants speak of diverting, misusing, stockpiling, selling, and potentiating methadone and other prescription drugs.
This methadone epidemic and deaths associated with it are not going away. It's only getting worse; I get contacted by families on a daily basis who have lost someone to this drug. At what point do we value human life over the convenience of others? Methadone patients, whether they are pain or clinic pose a risk to themselves and society as a whole if they are not monitored, dosed, and assessed correctly. Clinic patients getting into cars after being dosed who are using benzodiazepines, alcohol, marijuana or other opiates are killing innocent people on the road. This type of harm reduction is not saving lives it’s taking them. The government cannot continue to be a legal drug dealer in order for its citizens to “behave”.
I know the rules are in place for the clinics but they are NOT being followed. Patients sell take homes outside the clinics. In one news article a man died in the parking lot of a clinic after taking his brothers take home. This drug is too dangerous to be allowed in medicine cabinets! There is A LOT of money to be made from methadone but what expense is that money being made at? When do the risks outweigh the benefits of this drug? How many more people must die before changes are made that actually save lives?
I have called several methadone clinics and have found out that many do not test for marijuana and are not open 7 days a week. These two things are of special concern to my organization because all methadone patients will receive a take home bottle of methadone on Saturday for Sunday (the day they are closed) whether they are new to the program or have been abusing other drugs. Marijuana and methadone have an effect on the user very similar to >>>>>>. Many clinics do not test for marijuana because it is not believed to be a drug of choice or a "hard drug", I beg to differ because of the effect when combining the two have the potential to be more dangerous then the user/staff is aware. This poses a serious public health risk to those on the road innocently driving to work or school.
The state of Delaware has just added Methadone to the list of medications covered under the Medicaid program that require prior authorization for pain treatment. The potential of abuse, diversion, and overdose to new patients being prescribed methadone is overwhelming. The unique properties of methadone, it's long half life, short analgesic properties, cardiac risks and it's negative interaction with numerous drugs make it an optimal choice as a last result treatment for chronic pain.
Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.
Last edited by ddcmod; 12-12-2011 at 10:29 PM.
Please answer this
The only thing I've done is to try cutting down on the xanax. Jeff
Originally Posted by mpvt
It's nice to have this article posted; I am aware that methadone has already snatched away so many lives.
Last edited by ddcmod; 03-11-2010 at 04:14 PM.
Methadone and xanax
I too am on methadone and xanax. I take 120mg of methadone and 1mg of xanax four x aday. I go to the doctor friday to be raised to 150 of methadone. I have been an addict for twenty years and I have a long history with methadone. No one responds to the same dose of methadone. There are lots of factors to consider in the dosage of methadone, ie; A large person may need a higher dose than a small person. someone with Hep-c may need a higher dose, as is my case. If a person is taking methadone due to addiction. It serves no purpose unless you take enough to stabalize your cravings. And at the right dose it will curb your cravings.
Originally Posted by JBC911
Wow you have been on methadone for twenty years or were you addicted to something else for that amount of time? I have had my addiction to opiates mainly(ultram) I was taking about 10 a dAy at 50mg. This is really tough because I just recently about 1 month ago quit cold turkey actually I was on Lorazepam 2mg 2x a day,ateneolol 50mg 1x a day,lexapro 20mg 1x a daY,Ultram 50mg about 10 a day, @ hydroxycine25mg 4x a day. I don't know what to do bacause I recently about 1 week ago fell back into taking about 3-5 painkillers again. I would rather die rather than go through the withdrawal again. I have four children all young. i was on the painkillers due to the domestic violence situation i had trauma to lower back. PLEASE HELP I DO NOT WANT TO WITHDRAWAL AGAIN I WOULD RATHER DIE!!!!!!!!!!
I'm also taking methadone + xanax daily but my methadone dosage is only allowed to be 5 mg tabs 3 times daily with xanax being 1mg tab 4x daily. It sounds to me like many docs would be concerned about the amount/dosage of methadone you're taking. I'm not a physician but just going by what has been "preached" to me. If I read your methadone amount per day correctly , it sounds very high with the danger of combining that high of a dosage with xanax.I don't mean to be judgemental, but I'm just responding like I know how my specialist pain med doc would respond. Does this make any sense to you. I'll chat more if you like. Phil
Originally Posted by JBC911
I find it almost impossible to believe someone could feel dope sick on a doseage of 115 mgs methadone expecially with the added xanax. There are certain drugs that interract with methadone by taking it out of your system, mainly a drug called rifampin which was perscribed for TB. There are also drugs perscribed for HIV that interract poorly with methadone by reducing its effectiveness. But if there is nothing like that going on you would not feel sick taking methadone at 115 plus xanax 2 mg. I would hesitate before mixing xanax with meth. Besides the fact that its dangerous (due to respiratory depression), xanax is very addictive and it increases the way you react to methadone. Benzos are VERY habit forming. Some people say kicking benzo is worse than methadone so I'd be careful. I have zero explanation for why you'd be feeling "dope sick" though.
melis11577 and sheyrl07
I understand you're upset with methadone especially you melis11577, but lets take a look at the other side of the coin. Methadone has SAVED countless lives. It' has got people off the streets. It has stopped crime, like robbery, shoplifting, drug related murders, etc.. I'm one of the people that methadone has saved. I've been on it for 5 years and all though its a pain to have to rely on it, it has helped me live a productive life. Where from before I would be out roaming the streets looking for something to steal or someone to steal from for my next fix, i'm not gainfully employed and feel like a human being again. I hope that one day I can get off methadone but for now I've never been happier. So for me it was either overdose, jail, suicide, or methadone and I cant tell you how happy myself, friends, and family are at this decision. They have the "old" me back. Once again I'm extremely sorry for your loss melis 11577
it's also saved alot of lives
Last edited by ddcmod; 03-11-2010 at 04:12 PM.
I'm with you on that one, Tom!! It has truly SAVED my life! I do understand the abusing of it, but it also causes those who do not abuse it to have to suffer the bad name of "BEING ON METHADONE".....I've been on it for a year and a month. In that time, I have completely changed my life around for the better. I'm the happiest I've been since I was a young girl. I used to get so irritated when people would say "good morning". UGH, it would drive me nuts. I would think what the heck is so good about the morning time? It sucks. Now, I see life in a different way and I live for the mornings. Love to listen to the birds, look at the morning dew on the ground, breathe in the fresh air. Life is worth living again and I owe alot of it to my methadone maintenance.
Everything can be abused pretty much. People abuse cough syrup, paint thinner, glue,methadone, alcohol, pills... Methadone gets a bad rap. The reason for that is because of the laws surrounding methadone. You have to go to a clinic that does nothing but serve methadone to struggling addicts, some of who abuse so it gets the rep but that doesn't account for the many who get on methadone, stop using dirty needles, stop commiting crimes and become productive members of society. They should allow methadone to be perscribed at a doctor's office, just like sub, for addicts. If it had been that way from the beginning it wouldn't have such stigma attached to it. It's a lifesaver to many.
You're right, sadly everything can be abused. If someone wants to abuse ANY mind-altering substance badly enough they will find a way regardless of any existing rules or laws. But lots of those same drugs can save people's lives too. Drugs like methadone or subs can be good or bad depending on the surrounding circumstances.
Lots of addicts lives I've seen and sometimes everyone they're in contact with have a complete turnaround under the right circumstances with opiate replacement therapy meds. Opiate replacement therapy has helped lots of people stop acting out with their addictive behaviors and is becoming more and more accepted as the public becomes a little more tolerant and understanding of the meds themselves.
I believe methadone should be the last-resort drug used for all opiate replacement or for chronic pain patients. Of course I am a more pro-short term use advocate, but not with methadone. I think it's best used when nothing else works and it's going to be possibly forever. That isn't always bad but it is what it is and methadone gets a bad rep due to people choosing to abuse it.
Whatever works for a person that contributes to them NOT living out their insanity is an improvement, a step in right direction though crossing over the line to being totally clean gives a longtime addict a better feeling than any drug. Methadone has saved lots of lives. Some people have died from reactions to pennicillin, aspirin, all the miracle drugs. So nothing is perfect, it's about quality of life and what we are willing to do in order to overcome our demons, pain, etc.
Most drugs that are used in the proper manner are safe for the majority of people and some people simply can't take certain medications in any amount, form or whatever. I'ts all about doing the right thing with any medication we are using. God bless.
Last edited by Robert_325; 03-11-2010 at 03:25 PM.
I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.
Methadone.....some despise it, some don't.
I found this thread quite interesting and it seemed that everyone had good points. I've been to long term treatment facilities more times than I care to share. Thankfully I never tried or got put on Methadone. I'm pretty sure I'd of loved it. As I was told early on in my treatment "career", Methadone has it's place of usefulness if administered properly to the patient. One guy I spent many months in treatment with was on 240 mg daily @ one point. I also knew several that were on 180 to 190 mg. Now, were they taking benzos? I have no clue. I feel for the poor lady whose husband died in detox. I've seen a couple die in detox and too many die in treatment centers. One time I left the center in January and returned in December and 8 patients I knew had died as a direct result of their disease. It's a gift from God that I'm alive!
Last edited by DigIncubus; 03-22-2010 at 03:29 AM.
Reason: Found misspelled word
Like you, dig, I've been in my fair share of long term treatment facilities, daytop village being the longest (18 months). I succeeded but then failed so I guess I didn't really succeed lol> (I loved it when I was there). I was on methadone for a very long time, like 30 years long and I am an advocate for it in certain instances. I never loved it like you said. But then, I was never on more than 80 mgs. and spent the last 5 on 25 mgs. I didn't abuse it, didn't get high from it. It just keep me from using >>>>>> with needles. I think it's bad rap comes from the law that says it must be dispensed in methadone clinic and who wants one in their neighborhood. It's a good drug for those who have been to more long term treatment facilities than they'd care to mention LOL. Sub is a good drug if used very quickly, just to get off your DOC. But there are some of us who can't do it quickly after 40 year addictions so it poses its own problems. I think whatever works for you is a good thing.
Im sorry for your loss, 4000 people may die a year from methadone related deaths "which in most cases where caused by people abusing the drug and mixing with other medication that they shouldnt have". I would challenged you to compare the methadone death ratio to the >>>>>> or prescription pain killer ratio. Methadone SAVED my life and there is no doubt in my mind i'd be dead right now without it. Like some other people have said, yes it is a pain in the ass to rely on it, on the other hand i'll take the inconvience over a short life. Again sorry for your loss.
I agree newyorkgal but that will NEVER happen because of the way the system is setup. It's setup to generate as much $$$ as possible and thats what it does, everyone gets there cut and thats why it will remain the way it has since the begining. 85% of the owners could care less if you overdose they just want all those crisp 20 dollar bills to keep coming. I knew of one owner who actually cared when I first started, he was very leniant with being behind on payments, was once an addict himself, he even bought like 12 dozen doughnuts every friday for everyone. Sadly he got sick and sold it to a corp. that had bought up 3 other clinics and things changed over night. If you're short $5 on your payment you start auto-detox. Even the nurses and receptionist seen how greedy and disgusting the game is. All that being said >> rather pay those greedy yuppies getting rich off my addiction than a dealer and go shove a dirty needle in my arm.
There you go, Tom... Think about it.... The docs who perscribe pills, just as greedy. The docs who perscribe sub, greedy too... Dealers in the street, greedy. You pay for your addictions one way or the other. But I agree, I would rather pay a program than a dealer any day.
Methadone-Zanax Post spoke to me, all read please
I have been on methadone for 5 yrs. for pain management......doesn't seem to help that much anymore. Have never been on it for management of other drugs....legal or illegal. My top daily dose is 50mg. Why do the 'recovery' clinics prescribe doses once a day for OVER 100mg? I would fall asleep before I ever got out of the parking lot!!!!! Zanax is the one thing that has helped SO much with anxiety attacks and even the neck muscle spasms from MS, arthritis, blown disc, L4-L5. BUT my pain clinic WILL NOT prescribe the 2 together!! NOT NOW, NOT EVER! When I had insurance and saw all my Docs: neurologist, hematologist , internist, etc. they had no problem prescribing it occasionally (the Zanax). I take .5mg 1 or 2 a day as needed......many days none. I have never had a problem with that mix.....but I like to think of myself as responsible. I was told the 2 together can cause respiratory distress: i.e., you go to sleep and sorta forget to breathe....end of story. At what dose, for heavens sake, does death happen???? I want and need to know! I have been prescribed MANY other things to reduce the muscle spasms from idiopathic perifial neuropathy (not diabetic) and MS: I currently have Neurontin, Zanaflex, Flexeril, Baclofen, Cymbalta (mostly for depression) and just recently a trial period of Lyrica. Yeah, they all have 'sleepy eyes' and lots of warnings on the bottle.SO, I take my blood pressure medicine, Methadone and Cymbalta religiously as directed every day, and some Neurontin (prescribed 1800mg or more as needed). I take much less of it and all the others listed above. I take them according to what is happening that day with my body. But I believe old-fashioned Valium or Zanaflex alone could bring most of the same results. Comments, advice? I need to be my own advocate here, no on else is!
OOPS....I meant Valium or ZANAX, not Zanaflex in next to last sentence. Um, I have HepC as well, so I know my illegal drugs too. I am not trying to come off as the "one who takes Meth for pain, not addiction". I kicked a 3-year addiction to coke in 1984, moved, straightened up my life but didn't find out about the HepC until 2005. Talk about a bite in the ass!
im a long term methadone person, prior to that lots of years of iv use,
i happen to kow that methadone definately saved my life,, although over here we can inject our methadone so it had its own problems.
yeh, if you do a dirty piss test, showin up benzos, you are back on dailies, no priveledges. they are not keen on mixin the two.
i found tho, a lot of methadone people mix it to maximise the buzz.
and i guess we never know really what amount is too much, our tolerance goes up, and we get used to more. hard to say.
im on subs now, and they have got me away from the needles, for over 8 months now, and that in itself is a miracle for me, coz its been 20 years of iv prior to that. i find myself dabbling with benzos still, maximise the buzz still. got a lot to work on in that regard.
so it has its places, methadone, you just have to get the right dose. some people get on tryin to get off eventually, some just get on and never want to get off, i know a guy over here, on 150mg a day. he has got the WORST arms in the world, no bs, he would beat rotten dot com anyday. he has no inclination at all to get clean.
no way, no how.
its up to the individual.
oh and i got hep c too, found out in 2005 and yeh it was a big shock coz i was clean before. i didnt know that made ANY difference to your dose, none whatsoever. thats just not true.
I just have a few things to add to this thread. First thing, people seem to think that it is outrageous that some anyone would need a dose higher then theirs or twice what they take. Why? Drugs affect everyone differently especially methadone. You know what can effects a dose of methadone significantly? Your liver and the difference between people can be up to a factor of 100 (how fast the liver metabolizes methadone). Not to mention taking into account length of use, amount of use, drug of choice, cross tolerance, ect... As far as people just increasing their dose to abuse, of course it happens but there are procedures in place to stop it. I do go a clinic in the US and i know that if a patient wishes to go beyond 120 mgs they must do a peak and draw test. It basically tells the doctor if they are lying by seeing how fast the drug is eliminated. Also, you can raise your dose and get high...but only for a short while before tolerance kicks in and then you must do it again or combine drugs. Even if we had iron-clad procedures in place so people could not abuse methadone--they would just go get high on the streets.
Anyway, as far as Xanax and Methadone go--everyone here knows that they can be a deadly combo, but they also have other interactions in the liver. Both drugs use the same of the same enzyme systems to be broken down--CYP450 pathway. Meaning the effects of both drugs will be increased through competition and inhibition. Hence the synergistic effects but it also means if you take Xanax for a period of time then stop you could go into methadone withdrawals (and benzo withdrawal too). Also, tolerance can also affect this too. You may need more and more methadone and/or xanax to stop withdrawals from both. I was prescribed Valium for a month and that is what happened to me. I was at a dose of 15 mgs methadone and 5 mg val maybe twice a day. Towards the end of the first month, i started gong into withdrawals every night. I had no idea why; i was fine for the first few weeks. I kept upping my dose of methadone which would worked but only for a few days after. I ended up realizing i had to stop taking Valium, which i did but by that time my methadone stabilized..my dose was raised to 110 mgs (my original stabilized dose was 70 mgs). This is my experience with benzos and methadone. It doesn't mean this will happen to everyone who mixes the two. Learned the hard way, but i'm back down to 30 mgs. I use an OTC to help me come off methadone faster and not deal with withdrawals ever time i decrease.
Oh yeah, as far as methadone-related deaths on the raise, it is true, but also consider why that could be. Could it be that the drugs that were popularly prescribed such as morphine, Oxycontin, -whatever- were killing too many people so the doctors switched up their tactics and started prescribing more Methadone for pain and less Oxy's. Hence the raise in methadone deaths...people will always do stupid, ignorant things (like i did=p). Yeah i don't want them to happen but i don't think banning/restricting the drug or going a some drug crusade will help anything--the deaths will just shift to a different drug. Such is life.
i would like to ask you a few questions, i to have experienced almost the same things you mentioned .i have been on the methadone clinic for almost 13 yrs. I've seen alot of different things but this thing about methadone & benzo's baffel me. If you have time i would like u to email me so we could talk more about perhaps what i should do or could do. Thanks alot!!!
Originally Posted by mikespr33
Listen, all your Doctor has to do it order a peak & trough of methadone. You get a blood taken when you take a dose(around an hour after, I believe) then several hours later you get another blood teat. This measures the amount of methadone in your system from the time you take it to when it is going down in your system. Now, just look up this test and educate yourself. I'm not sure the exact times you yake the blood teats but it will show if you have the right emount of methadone in your system. It does sound like an awful much to take on a daily basis but I'm on 80mg myself per day but have not changed dose in years. I use the medication for all my chronic conditions which is one is pain. Good luck!
Originally Posted by newyorkgal
FOR MIKESPR33 Hello. I am also on methadone 100 mgs now(been on it for 18 months,went down from 120 recently then stopped) abd I went down 20 mgs slowly then stopped cuz I got scared but you mentioned that there were some otc's that helped w/the w/drawals? Well could you share what they were cause I really want to get off this stuff already but I am so afraid of w/drawal ,it makes me panic honestly and I jusy dont wanna get sick. THank you
Last edited by ddcmod; 04-29-2010 at 02:05 AM.
Tapering off Methadone
Hi, I have been on Methadone for 7 months and have been tapering off since last Friday from 70mg down to 10 mg today. I have not noticed any difference in the way I feel. Some people tell me I am going too fast. I have a Dr. who is doing this to me. I have a Dr. who is Chief of Staff and a friend of the family who I spoke to last night on the phone and I have his number on my cell,(which makes me feel better)..he said yes I am going fast but it will be ok. That you have to do it. Sure I will have some pain. But I am tapering down now by .05 mg...down to .25 mg and dragging that out for two weeks. Sure I am scared. But I think I will be ok. Has anyone had any experiences with it, like I am doing? I have had more than one Dr. tell me that you don't have to take it too slowly. Everyone is different. I am not a >>>>>> addict. If I was, that might be different. I do have chronic pain however, and that I can deal with. I do like the way methadone controls pain. BUT, I don't want to be a slave to the methadone clinic and that is where I started on the methadone. My family Dr. took over my script for methadone for only 2 times and then renigged and then is bringing me down. So, I agreed to let him do it. Sure, I could go back to the clinic, but I am not going to do it. I will get off this drug. Any thoughts? I think that a lot of this "is in people's head" about being afraid of coming down...being scared of withdrawal..because I have not felt any different in my dose since I have dropped from last Friday to this Friday..from 70 mg dow to 10 mg today. No difference at all.
Last edited by ohithurts; 04-30-2010 at 09:38 AM.
6th day Tapering off Methadone
Today is the 6th day and I am down to 0.5mg from 70mg from Methadone and still feeling great. From here, I will do this dose for 3 days, then .25 mg till May 19th and then stop. I think I will be ok. After that, I am done. I have had no signs of withdrawals yet. Nothing. Does anyone or has anyone ever done this before, like I am doing it?
Last edited by ohithurts; 05-01-2010 at 07:07 AM.