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Suboxine treatment
  1. #1
    JohnE47 is offline New Member
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    Default Suboxine treatment

    I have been addicted to opiates for many years now. Have tried quitting hundreds of times and in many different ways. I would like to try a suboxine or methadone treatment plan but not sure how to go about it. I have no insurence and an income lower and a grand a month. Im looking for something outpaitient where i can consult and find the mg in which i need to start tapering from and then set up some couciling or aa perhaps once im on it. I have no idea where to start. I can not be put in a detox facility due to too many obligations. Please help me in finding the best way to go about this in the most cost affective manner and also would like to here from people with the same expierences and how there programs worked for them. Please help me i can't do this on my own anymore.

  2. #2
    JohnE47 is offline New Member
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    Please help me

  3. #3
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE47 View Post
    I have been addicted to opiates for many years now. Have tried quitting hundreds of times and in many different ways. I would like to try a suboxine or methadone treatment plan but not sure how to go about it. I have no insurence and an income lower and a grand a month. Im looking for something outpaitient where i can consult and find the mg in which i need to start tapering from and then set up some couciling or aa perhaps once im on it. I have no idea where to start. I can not be put in a detox facility due to too many obligations. Please help me in finding the best way to go about this in the most cost affective manner and also would like to here from people with the same expierences and how there programs worked for them. Please help me i can't do this on my own anymore.



    Tell us more about your using history so we'll be better able to make the right suggestion. Subs or methadone for sure are not for everyone. You may could make it with the Thomas Recipe which would be very economical coupled with meetings at NA. But need to know more about you first. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  4. #4
    Morgandl is offline New Member
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    Default Robert Help!

    Hello,

    I am brand new to this discussion board but I have seen so many wonderful posts by Robert, I'm hoping either he or somebody can help.

    I have had a chronic kidney issue (I pass kidney stones weekly) for the past three years, starting when I was 23. The doctors put me on Oxy, and after the first year my body became dependent. I was on oxycodone for the past three years upping from about 5mg a day to eventually 90mg on my worst pain day. I decided I wanted to try alternatives to pain medication and made the decision to go off of it. I had weened myself down and was not withdrawling on about 30-40mg per day for the last week. I then went on suboxone two weeks ago. The Dr. started me off at 12mg per day and immediately I felt amazing. I felt like my old self again within hours and thought this to be a miracle drug. Over the past two weeks I have weened myself down to 8mg. It is important for me to get over suboxone quickly. I am taking it purely to get rid of the physical addiction/dependence I have built over the past 3 years. Because I have a chronic kidney issue still, and I can pass a kidney stone at any time, it's really important that I can still be treated with pain medication at a hopsital if need be. I am able to keep percocet at my house, and have had it for two weeks, with no need or desire to take it.

    I just received another prescription fro 45 8mg suboxone, and I am really resisting filling it because it's $400. I have one pill left. My last dose of suboxone was taken 24 hours ago. Right now I feel ok, not 100% but definitely up and able to function, maybe just a little headache. I know from everything I've read that suboxone has a long half life and thus I will start to feel worse and worse. My question is, because I was only on it for 13 days thus far, am I going to have a severe detox if I just stop taking it?

    Also, Because I have a legal prescription for percocet and really no mental addiction or need to take it (as mentioned I've had it in the house this entire time and I've been 100% ok not taking it or wanting it), do you think I could take one 5mg pill per day to stop the withdrawal from the suboxone? I would rather do that if you think that will work so I don't have to rely on suboxone anymore. I'm not worried about being mentally addicted or "relapsing" as that is truly not my issue or problem. I just don't know if that's a logical way to look at this as I want to be off all medicine ASAP.

    Please let me know what ya'll think. Also, I'm nervous if I take a percocet and it does not help, that I won't be able to take suboxone for awhile because of these "precipated withdrawals" I've read about. Since I haven't taken oxy in 2 weeks I don't know if you can get that from 5 mg. Please let me know what you recommend. I think it's wonderful how much you are able to help and guide people and will take whatever advice you give.

    Thanks!

    Morgan

  5. #5
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Morgan ...... You yourself stated having the oxy / percs in the house while on suboxone was of no threat to your sticking to the sub plan properly. You had no desire to use them. Then in the same post you ask about taking some pain meds with the subs.

    First of all you don't mix pain pills with subs. I won't even bother at this point to get into the science of the matter as that is the least important part of this for now. They plain and simple don't go together PERIOD!!!! The subs will zero out the effects of the percs, they will be a waste so why bother?

    Secondly, and I mean this seriously, keeping a "stash for an emergency" as many people refer to it, is a reservation about your commitment to recovery. Don't care what anyone says, that is the bottom line. If you're going to get and stay clean you DON'T need, nor should you have the percs in your possession or even know about where any are located under any circumstances.

    A reservation is a relapse waiting to happen. I would dare say that people on subs who keep a stash of RX opiate painkillers on hand for "emergencies" probably end up relapsing at least 50% MORE OFTEN than a normal person relapses who doesn't even have a stash. Tempations are inevitable, but keeping one in the drawer is not a commitment to success getting and staying clean. You've got to be very vigilant and on guard at all times in order to succeed at getting clean. You're setting yourself up for a failure if you keep the percs around.

    Get rid of the percs or use them and get rid of the subs. That is my best advice. Decide which it is that you want to do. I'm not judging you or your pain, but you have to decide what you are going to do and make a TOTAL commitment to following through with that decision regardless of what your decision is. If you aren't ready to get rid of the percs you likely aren't ready to commit to getting clean. That is a fact.

    Hope you take my comments in the manner in which they were intended. I ONLY want the best for you! But I know what I'm talking about here and I am right. Hope that helps.

    Also you are on entirely too much suboxone. We induct people here at less than 4mg almost every time. I have inducted long term addicts at 2mg or less and they have years of clean time even without any subs today. So we can get your dose down to where it's affordable if you decide to stick with us and follow our tape plan to the letter. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 09-24-2011 at 11:24 AM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  6. #6
    Morgandl is offline New Member
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    So if percocet is of absolutely no use to help with suboxone withdrawal, knowing how much I've been taking what is the BEST way for me to get off suboxone at this point. It seems to be, from what I've read, that going from 8mg a day even for only 13 days to absolutely zero is not a reasonable solution?

    I guess in my way of thinking my need to not be on any drug, including suboxone, I was willing to do whatever it takes to help me stop taking suboxone as quickly as possible.

    If you say that's not reasonable, then I'm going to take your word!! You seem to be an expert and I'm clearly a novice, so what is going to be the best way for me to decrease the amount of suboxone I'm on as quickly as possible? As I stated I was on 12mg for about a week, then 8mg for the last week. I haven't taken anything in 24 hours and I feel good. Not 100% but good.

    How many mg's would you suggest I take and how often to most effectively and safely get off the suboxone? I have to say, I thought my Dr. to be wonderful, however last time I asked him how long I would be on suboxone he said it's subjective. He told me some people are on it for weeks, other years, and it depended on me and how I felt. He seemed more than willing to provide me with suboxine for years even though that's not what I want.

    So NO percocet. I got it, it's not a good idea, let's say that probably shows you I truly have no idea what I'm doing here. So in your opinion, to start getting myself off suboxone what should my dose be at this point? For the past 24 hours I've been feeling good, which probably tells me I'm taking much more than my body needs at this point. Would you say that's a safe assumption? Or can everybody go 24 hours without suboxone and still be ok because of the long half life?

    Thanks again for taking the time out, much appreciated,

    M

  7. #7
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgandl View Post
    So if percocet is of absolutely no use to help with suboxone withdrawal, knowing how much I've been taking what is the BEST way for me to get off suboxone at this point. It seems to be, from what I've read, that going from 8mg a day even for only 13 days to absolutely zero is not a reasonable solution?

    I guess in my way of thinking my need to not be on any drug, including suboxone, I was willing to do whatever it takes to help me stop taking suboxone as quickly as possible.

    If you say that's not reasonable, then I'm going to take your word!! You seem to be an expert and I'm clearly a novice, so what is going to be the best way for me to decrease the amount of suboxone I'm on as quickly as possible? As I stated I was on 12mg for about a week, then 8mg for the last week. I haven't taken anything in 24 hours and I feel good. Not 100% but good.

    How many mg's would you suggest I take and how often to most effectively and safely get off the suboxone? I have to say, I thought my Dr. to be wonderful, however last time I asked him how long I would be on suboxone he said it's subjective. He told me some people are on it for weeks, other years, and it depended on me and how I felt. He seemed more than willing to provide me with suboxine for years even though that's not what I want.

    So NO percocet. I got it, it's not a good idea, let's say that probably shows you I truly have no idea what I'm doing here. So in your opinion, to start getting myself off suboxone what should my dose be at this point? For the past 24 hours I've been feeling good, which probably tells me I'm taking much more than my body needs at this point. Would you say that's a safe assumption? Or can everybody go 24 hours without suboxone and still be ok because of the long half life?

    Thanks again for taking the time out, much appreciated,

    M



    Morgan ..... Glad to see you have such a good positive attitude! You admit your lack of knowledge about all this and aren't on an ego trip. That makes helping you so much easier!

    I wish that I could do this whole thing with you from day one until you are totally clean and off the subs too. But I am going into the hospital in a few days for kind of major surgery and will have a recovery period after I get out of being in the hospital a few days. In my absence both Henry and Denny are covering for me as they are both successful with the tapering plan I use and are totally clean. They are both my friends and are more than qualified to do this. Both are committed to your success and I trust their judgment calls entirely. So one of them will be along to help you shortly I am sure. You'll receive the same advice from them as you would me.

    So you know, the standard taper we use here, is how I got clean years ago, I journaled everything I did, and countless others have used this process over several years. I will post a link to the sub therapy plan at the end of this post. This is the plan Henry or Denny will use helping you. The main thing is that you follow it to the letter. The basics of the taper is reducing your dose by 25% every four days or so from whatever dose of sub you happen to be on at the time. You'll see the plan when you read the link. We work with very small doses and have you clean on the average in a couple months, so there is little room for playing and reinventing the wheel. It will work for you if you follow it EXACTLY as it's written. That is a guarantee! At least a thousand people are clean and even off the subs today after using this plan. We are all a little different and the plan alllows for that. I've updated it three times over the last four years as we have learned more and more as we work with more people and learn more.

    One of the main things you'll see in the taper plan is to take the same amount every day at the same time daily. Don't try to go "as long as you can" without taking anything. This is not like tapering off percocets! You need the steady and constant flow of medication in your system every day to achieve optimal results. You will want to start out on a dose that you can be stable at and taper from there. The dose isn't as important at this point as the process. I would try to keep it under 8mg as you've already been taking them a little while. But Denny or Henry will help you get to a good stable point as soon as they join in.

    Here is the link to follow to the plan. I will be checking in on you after I get out of the hospital and will be adding my support. You just happened to catch me at a time when I have to take care of my personal health as I'm not a kid anymore. Denny and Henry will take good care of you. Lots of others here have lots of experience with subs as well. You came to the right place. PLEASE get rid of those percs. I don't care what you do with them, except don't take them! God bless.

    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html
    Last edited by Robert_325; 09-24-2011 at 12:01 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  8. #8
    Morgandl is offline New Member
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    THANK YOU!!

    I wish you the best of luck with your own personal health and hope your surgery is a success.

    I will continue to use the forum for updates and to seek advice.

    My last 2 questions:

    1. Because I have sustained from taking suboxone for 24 hours already, should I take it immediately now that I realize tapering as opposed to cold turkey is the smart way.

    2. Because, as according to you, I am clearly on too much suboxone to begin with, should I still start tapering from the 8mg I am on and reduce at 25% from there, or do you think I can begin at a lower dose?

    Thanks again, and once again best of luck.

    M

  9. #9
    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgandl View Post
    THANK YOU!!

    I wish you the best of luck with your own personal health and hope your surgery is a success.

    I will continue to use the forum for updates and to seek advice.

    My last 2 questions:

    1. Because I have sustained from taking suboxone for 24 hours already, should I take it immediately now that I realize tapering as opposed to cold turkey is the smart way.

    2. Because, as according to you, I am clearly on too much suboxone to begin with, should I still start tapering from the 8mg I am on and reduce at 25% from there, or do you think I can begin at a lower dose?

    Thanks again, and once again best of luck.

    M




    Thanks for the well wishes. I appreciate it!

    Considering you are still at kind of high dose in this taper and have been at 8mg I would take advantage of that and start out at 6mg which would be the next step in the taper anyway. That is a 25% reduction from the 8mg. Then, as you will read in the taper plan, I would take your first dose immediately as in right now. But I would do a split dose as the taper suggests. It helps you when you are doing these reductions. Take 3mg now, then take another 3mg late afternoon or very early evening. Then tomorrow I would get on a regular schedule of dosing as soon as possible after you get up and again in 9-10 hours later. Then maintain that dosing schedule throughout the taper as long as it works out well for you. If you have any challenges, which I don't anticipate, ask Denny or Henry and they will be able to help you with whatever comes along.

    Best of luck to you in this. You will receive all the support and guidance you require from Henry or Denny. Listen to exactly what they tell you and you'll do fine and end up being another success story. If you haven't read that link yet go back and read it to memory. That will be what you live by for the next couple months! God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

  10. #10
    JohnE47 is offline New Member
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    Ummm ok well maybe you guys can help me out now? First where should i start? what would be the most cost effective way of abtaining the proper dose of subs and where to go from there?

  11. #11
    JohnE47 is offline New Member
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    As far as my use i have been using on and off for 5 years. it started after a moto injury then i found myself taking them whenever emotional pain became overwhelming now its to the point where i just can stop. I can take 15-20 5/500 miligrams of regular vicoden at a time so about 60 in a day and up to 6-8 op 40s a day.

  12. #12
    newyorkgal is offline Platinum Member
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    First, I would start off reading the link Robert put up a few posts ago to Morgan for sub detox. There are doctors to prescribe it but it's usually on a cash basis. My doctor charges $100 a visit. If you do go the sub route, after reading the link, ask Henry or Denny for help since Robert will not be available for a while. I know some people do a methadone taper but truthfully, most programs are for maintenance, not tapering, and methadone is a long term deal usually. I also don't know if there are that many methadone detox programs. If you aren't looking for long term treatment, sub would be your best bet. Look into your options then come back and ask for help which you will surely get.

  13. #13
    Morgandl is offline New Member
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    Hey John,

    I think Robert was waiting for your usage before he could make any recommendations. Sorry if you felt like I highjacked your turn!

    From my experience, after being on oxycodone for three years for chronic kidney stones, I feel like suboxone was a miracle drug. All of my use was legal, from Dr's who couldn't help me with my condition, and in a way it made it harder to get off. My urologist and pain dr often collaborated, and since my kidney is still in shambles neither recommended getting off of pain medicine yet. I made the decision on my own and I couldn't be any happier with my decision. I HIGHLY recommend the suboxone route. I'm not sure where you live, but some states this is easier than others. There are a million clinics out in the Boston area, however as the previous post has mentioned it is pretty much a cash only business. I do have insurance however I had a huge problem finding anybody to see me that wasn't cash only. There were other programs that took insurance but you had to be "accepted" and took 4-6 weeks to get started. I would say all states are different however if you tell me where you live I would be more than happy to try and help find you some options.

    You have to wait until you are in withdrawal to take your first dose of suboxone, but after I did I felt 100% better. From the moment my first dose kicked in I felt like my old normal self. I know it doesn't work this good for 100% of people but I think it to be a miracle drug. I just don't feel like I made the decision to get off oxy just so I can pay for suboxone, so I want to be off of it as soon as possible. That's a totally personal decision, from what I've read people seem to be on it for years. I think it depends on your emotional/mental strength more than physical. I am NO expert on that, so I'd say a Dr. or one of the Vet's on this page would maybe be able to give you better advice on time/mg's.

    I would say to start doing research on places to get suboxone immediately, and like I said I would be more than happy to help find some places. I know it was the best decision I have made. Since I've stopped I'm looking for alternate and hollistic ways to deal with my kidney pain. And in the meantime the Suboxone has taken away 100% of withdrawal and detox. My dependence was pretty physical as opposed to mental, but I can tell you from the first time I took suboxone any *need* for percocet was pretty non-existant. I definitely think you should give it a try. Let me know if there are any other questions you think I can answer.

    Best of Luck,

    M

  14. #14
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    Hey M. dont want to rain on your parade mate, but the reason you have NO CRAVINGS at all on suboxone, is coz its a much more powerful opiate. and at 6mg, (if you dropped to that like robert suggested) thats still a pretty high dose. considering its 20-30 times more powerful than morphine, so even 6 x 20 is 120mg. get my drift.

    its a miracle drug right now, coz you feel normal, but you are still hooked on a powerful opiate. yup, your best bet is to not stay on too long, the longer you stay on the harder it is to get off. (trust me i know was on it a year and 3 months)

    use the taper plan, and drop gradually, and its possible to get off mate.

    and well worth it. go for it... nothing to lose ay...

    cheeky

  15. #15
    Morgandl is offline New Member
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    LOL well, you DID rain on my parade. So tell me, I've been on it for 19 days now. I'm not concerned about percocet, unless I'm passing a kidney stone (I have 40!!) I don't take it. And if that happens my pain dr said until i'm no longer physically dependent to go to the hopsital and let them treat me. All I care about is getting all drugs out of my system asap so I can start accupuncture and some other forms of treatment.

    So how long do you think I will realistically have to be on suboxone to get me through my physical dependence, and if it's THAT much MORE powerful, than why am I on it to begin with? You're sort of scaring me!! What's the point of using this? If it's for mental purposes only then I feel stupid for even starting it. Honestly I feel like at this point I'm being used for my cash bc I'm starting to get the impression that it's going to be harder to PHYSICALLY get off suboxone than a few 5mg percocet's a day. Is that the case? HELPPPP.

  16. #16
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    best thing you can do is get off the subs as soon as possible. yes they are stronger than percs. and your doctor stepped UP you addiction by switching you to them. sorry to say.

    but there is hope ok...

    the standard taper used by a lot of people on here, is to reduce your dose by 25% every 4 days or so..... you were on 6mg when i last posted. what is your dose now.?
    if you havent dropped that at all. it is time to... go to 4.5mg and stick to that for 4 days..... after that the next closest 25% drop would be 3mg....

    and so on down to zero.... it gets a little harder as the dose gets below 1mg, but its entirely possible. i did it. after abusing opiates iv for over 20 years. so its possible.

    too many doctors are giving out subs like candy to 'fix' addictions, when really they are just trading to a more powerful one...

    what dose are you on now.? its important to take the same amount each day, and then reduce by the 25% every 4 or so days..

    it takes a bit of discipline, but if you really want it its entirely possible.

    cheeky

  17. #17
    Morgandl is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the response! I actually didn't start tapering successfully. After I tried to go "without" for 24 hours thinking they were like perks, I ended up getting extremely ill and I took around 10 mg to feel better through 24 hours. I got EXTREMELY Ill which makes me EXTREMELY paranoid and now I am sort of freaked out I even started this drug. I have been on about 8mg a day, my dose is 12mg but I never take that much.

    I have only been on the sub for three weeks, so I was wondering if I got SO sick because my body is still physically dependent on the perks as well? Is that totally wrong? Is it too soon to start tapering?

  18. #18
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    it certainly is not too soon to start tapering.

    and you dont try and go without taking subs. the trick to them, is take the same amount each day.

    so you are on 8mg.? cept when you think you need more. ? thats the problem. you need to be on a stable amount. my doctor had me on 12mg also. but it is far too much...

    if you can stick to the 8mg, for a few days, dont take any more. then go to 6mg...

    if you dont want to become dependent on these things, start to taper. and you are over the withdrawls from the percs now., the subs are far stronger. you probably felt "soo sick" because you took too much.

    please start to stabilize, dont take extras, and taper down,. sounds like you can go to 6mg, stick to that. and see how ya go...

  19. #19
    Morgandl is offline New Member
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    This week I did 8mg for 5 days, and 2 days I took an extra 2mg. I take one 4mg at 7:30, then the next dose at 1:30. Sometimes I feel fine throughout the day and sometimes I start to feel sick and take the extra 2mg. I'm going to try and stick to the 8mg so I can go down to 6mg soon though.

    I seem to get really bad headaches, but I'm going to try and take Advil if I can.

    Thanks,

    M

  20. #20
    globalgeneric is offline New Member
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    if you or a loved one are struggling with opiate addiction please give us a call right now.

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