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Ultram / Ultracet / Tramadol
  1. #61
    lovingwife is offline New Member
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    Hello board,
    My husband is currently on Ultracet and Tizanidine. He also has been prescribed Valium, Motrim 800 and Vicoden. I have spent this evening researching the latest treatment that his physiatrist has prescribed. As well as side effects from Ultracet and found this board.
    My husband suffers from cervical and spinal stenosis. In a nutshell, we were over the road truck drivers, owner operators. That translates into a better wage than a regular truck driver, and that we did it by choice. On New Years, this year, we were in a relatives vehicle and involved in a car accident. The woman rear ended us at 55 mph, while we sat at a dead stop.
    My husband, sitting in the back seat, began presenting with symptoms, back pain, numbness and failure of his left leg immediately. Without going into it, the car accident exascerbated a condition that truck drivers get after about 10 years of driving, due to the extreme vibration of a truck. I can explain further, but am more concerned with my husband's current symptoms from the meds...
    We did trust our doc till he moved into a more expensive building and my husband began presenting with odd symptoms. We voiced these symptoms to him on the last visit, and he ordered a blood test. Okay that is fine and well, but why hadn't anyone done a blood screen before, (in the last 6 months - for a comparison)???
    Anyway, I get ahead of myself...
    Dave was prescribed 2 tablets, every 6 hours, no milligrams noted, as needed. But the doc gave him 120 tabs a month. That is not to say that he took that many, he really tried to 'not' take these tablets. But lately it has gotten easier for him to take the medication. He would take 2 tablets at bedtime for pain. But rather than help him sleep, he would go into a drug induced sleep for no more than 3 hours and then wake up. He experienced vertigo and also dizziness upon walking. He would feel faint for no reason more than once a day. His personality changed as well. He was either worn out or almost manic in his energy. But the mania would always result in more back pain the following day. Hence, another dosage... This med and the others have reduced his reflexes to almost non-existence. But we also have two docs telling us that watching his reflexes is most crucial to knowing when surgery is iminent. His vertebra are closing in on his spinal cord. When the spinal fluid ceases to move enough, surgery is imminent!
    His personality change was also rather noteworthy. He became obsessive on some objects, and couldn't remember regular words in other conversations. It was just not my husband, pre-Ultracet!
    I am concerned!
    He has chosen to remove himself from the Ultracet and the Tizanidine as of this morning. We do know that there will be symptoms that he will exhibit from coming off these meds. But they cannot be any worse than what he has exhibited thus far.
    I would welcome a discussion from others in regard to your usage of Ultracet.

  2. #62
    dianeselby is offline New Member
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    I was prescribed tramadol after falling and breaking my shoulder although this was not discovered by our health system for 7 months, as a result I needed to have 2 operations and took the drug for 9 months at the maximum amount alongside other drugs to kill my pain. I am struggling with withdrawal and have been for some time now. The cocktail of medication I have had to take have messed up my system, I have cellulite from my ankles to my chest, mega headaches, flu symptoms, restless legs/bugs crawling under my skin, restless/can't settle/ pacing around, sickness, inability to sleep, constipation, depression, a feeling of not being altogether here etc etc etc. My gp cannot give me a timescale for this to end and cannot assist with medication to reduce the effects. I am eating a balanced diet, drink LOADS of water, body brush daily and use a mixture of aromatherapy essential oils to assist lymphatic drainage, I have started having acupuncture and the use of chinese herbs to detox and koyotokara detox 'teabags' on my feet every night before bed. The only other thing to do now is to grin and bear it until it passes. Good luck to anyone else suffering with this >>>>>> drug and I agree wholeheartedly with another contributer who said it did not work very well, same with me, hence the need for so many supplemental drugs. I can hardly wait until my system is clear of the poison of this damn drug and hope it will mean that I look human enough to go out in public again [/font=Comic Sans MS]

    Diane Selby

  3. #63
    debosmom is offline New Member
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    I need to know what to take if I try to get off tramadol? I only take 2 twice a day but I sometimes have to add an extra one late afternoon if I have grandchildren coming over and know I have to be active. After 5 hours of a dose, I drop off as if it were a diet pill, I get nervous...drenched in perspiration and cannot do anything that comes close to being nice to anyone around me. My back hurts all the time but is okay after medicine. I took ultraset for a couple of years before a TKR last year. I never noticed any symtoms like I have with plain tramdol. For 3 months after the TKR I used Lortab and then stopped those altogether as the knee got better. The replaced knee is not painful, it is all the other joints that still have OA. I went back on tramadol for other the joints and now I feel controlled by medicine and just want to feel good without it. Guess (I need a healing and I am just venting.) I was wondering if they are other less demanding drugs that can ease the pain yet not make me a basket case physically and mentally when it wears off. I hate the nervousness and sweating more than the pain. Is Ultraset different than tramdol? Like, is it pain killer without the withdrawal?

  4. #64
    lovingwife is offline New Member
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    Diane,
    My heart goes out to you. How long have you been off the Ultracet/tramadol? My husband just recently took himself off and has experienced many of your symptoms. Although he is feeling better by the day. I should add that he has only taken 84 pills since April 11 of this year. We have always known that many doctors just want to medicate you to shut you up. But what I find concerning, is that we presented my husband's symptoms to his 'so called' doc, only to be told, 'I don't know what could be causing your troubles'. Of course on the same day, he passed my husband off to the 'Pain Clinic' in our health care system, and ordered a Comprehensive Metabolic Screening (blood work).
    I am still furious over this doctor's behaviors. You see, 2 days later, the same doctor claimed to a disability insurance company that my husband had no problems and was released to work. Neither he nor his nurse will speak with us, either in person or on the phone. And yet, he ordered a steroid epidural for my husband's lower back, and of course the pain clinic, and he is to be reviewed by the quack in 4 weeks.
    I have some very strong opinions on all the pharmaceuticals floating around, and the obvious 'distance' that many doctors seem to place themselves above their patients.
    My husband will be okay eventually, but why should so many people be the 'lab rats' for the industry? And what ever happened to the 'Hypocratic Oath', do today's doctors no longer take it???

  5. #65
    dianeselby is offline New Member
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    Hi, Thank you for your kind words. It feels like ages, I took my last tramadol 4 weeks ago, but had come down from 8-10 a day losing one each week, having been on the maximum for 9 months [I reduced faster than recommended by my gp cos I was desperate to get it out of my system] I can see gradual improvement finally, but it has been an absolute nightmare. My gp acknowledged that all they do nowadays is pass over drug dependance to a drug withdrawal service, this does not include those made dependant by the health service though! It seems we are on our own in getting rid of the poison once they have put it there. I am sticking with the acupuncture and aromatherapy essential oils for lymphatic drainage, but I am really struggling with the chinese herbs, they are a lot of work and seriously nasty! Your situation sounds equally unfair and quite disgusting, I agree, whatever happened to responsibility!? We are adults, at the very least they could be honest with us from the start, there is enough on the internet about this drugs effects and they know well enough once we talk to them about it! I am going to complain when I am strong enough, but cannot face it at the moment. Would you believe they did not x ray me for 4 months, then failed to detect the break[s] until it being re-xray'd 3 months later, so that by then I needed two operations to sort out the damage. I hope both our luck changes for the better. I can see some slight improvement this week from these treatments, but am impatient. Keep in touch and let me know how you are doing please, I will be thinking of you and if I get any other information about things that will help etc, I will let you know. Regards Diane

    Diane Selby

  6. #66
    lovingwife is offline New Member
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    Diane,
    I cannot imagine the pain and frustration you must have encountered before the last x-rays showed the break. I am not familiar with health care in the UK. Is it socialist? Do you have any recourse?

    I found myself discussing with an 'informed individual' today, the difference between a mistake by a doctor or hospital and actual malpractice, and was horrified, it appears that US Doctors don't have to be at their best, only what could be reasonably expected from a peer.

    I am 45 years old and medical treatment wasn't like this 10 or 15 years ago. Doctors were held accountable for their prescriptions and treatments. They still held themselves accountable for their own actions.

    I am curious as to the 'payoff' that all doctors are now receiving from the pharmaceutical companies. In that, not all doctors would prescribe the 'favored' high priced drug, some doctors would prescribe another drug. Why is it that 90% of all docs prescribe the same drugs?? I know that in the US, it is supposed to be illegal to bribe doctors, so how have the pharmaceutical companies found to bribe doctors under the radar??

    I really support your self treatment Diane, and hope that you can come off the Ultracet/tramadol completely. My husband is feeling better every day. He takes joy in having his mind back. And I truly love to hear his thoughts again.

    May God Bless You in all of your endeavors,
    Denise


  7. #67
    wannabedrugfree is offline New Member
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    quote:Originally posted by lwmol

    Ultram users need to be aware of it's serotonin reuptake inhibitor properties. Stopping too quickly can cause serotonin syndrome-like symptoms, which is hell. And after stopping the Ultram you may need to be precribed an SSRI antidepressant vs. "being addicted".
    I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia and taking Ultram q4-6 hrs along with Fentynl patches, which only took the edge off of the pain at it's peak. After many, many doctors missing the right diagnosis, I asked for a sleep study. From this they found I have severe obstructive sleep apnea. Once on CPAP my pain quickly decreased. Unknowingly I quickly decreased the Ultram which sent me into the serotonin syndrome-like hell. I went back up on the Ultram, then slowly decreased the Fentynl first and then the Ultram.
    I have a feeling alot of people with fibrmyalgia/CFIDS/depression need to ask there doctor about having an overnight sleep study done.

    tenacious
    Dear "Tenacious,"

    How long did it take you to taper off the Ultram? I'm ony trying to come off 100 mgs/day and am tapering off to 50 mgs, then 25 mgs, etc., per doctor's orders. I'm still having irritability, cold sweats, hot flashes, fatigue, etc.

    Judy

    JJ

  8. #68
    marty511 is offline New Member
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    I have been taking ultram for a little over a year. I take about 25 to 40 50 mg ultrams a day, five or six at once.
    I want to ween off of this, but like others I am concerned about the withdraw. I do not have a doctor to talk to as I get these all online.
    Does anyone have the experience of sucessfully just cutting back and then quiting all together?
    I just spent the last hour or so reading everyone's post, but no one seemed to be taking as much as I have so I am concerned.
    Is there anything that I can take in replace of ultram? Does cutting back slowly really work and then I won't have withdraws when I am finally down to one a day and then none?
    I don't have back pain, I just started taking these to get off percocet, which it did work, but now I am unable to quit these. Fed ex shipping messed up so I won't get more until tomorrow and it really sucks, I have many of the same symptoms that others have posted.
    So if anyone has any advice please let me know. Like I said I do not have a doctor.
    Also I am self employed and so I was thinking about just shutting myself in my house alone for a week or so and not taking any and maybe that would work? Even if it would be terrible, to me it would be worth it. I am spending so so much money of these every week.

    okay that is it. thanks.

  9. #69
    Suzen is offline New Member
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    Hi, I started taking Ultram for fibromyalgia pain in July of 1997. In December of 2004 I started to wean myself off the Ultram by cutting back 1/4 of a tablet every week to two weeks.It took me 4 months but by the end of April this year I was completely off this dastardly stuff! It was the most difficult physical and mental challenge I've ever gone through. My emotions crashed because of the seratonin drop, the pain in my hands and feet came back 3 times worse than it had been before the Ultram and I slept like >>>>.I knew if I took just one I would feel totally better. It did help my pain and ability to get a deep sound sleep and for a while that was good,but if I forgot a dose, or ran out I felt horrible. That fear of going through withdrawal kept me on this stuff way to long! Finally my regular Doctor left the practice and a new very cold Doctor took over.He told me he didn't like Ultram and he didn't feel comfortable prescribing it for me. He said he would write me a refill just this one time. I decided that bottle would be my last period! I didn't want a Doctor or a medication to have this power over me anymore! It feels great to be off! I took 4 to 6 50mg tablets a day.Good luck to anyone trying to get off this stuff. Just remember when you wean yourself off go at the pace that feels comfortable to you. Once you feel comfortable with the schedule, stick with it! You might be tempted to hurry it up to get the discomfort over with. Don't! You will feel so bad your going to have to make up for the pain and discomfort by inceasing your dose of Ultram thus starting at square one again! Be kind to yourself and stay on course you will get off! Best Wishes to all.

  10. #70
    santiken is offline New Member
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    Listen you guys, I've been taking trammies for years and they are a very good med. You gotta remember, do NOT take more than 300 mg's a day and also give yourself a break and take none for a day or so every so often. If you take more than 300 mgs a day, it does nothing for you and increases the side effects exponentially. This stuff works fantastic, believe it or not, on my stomach pain. I have Hiatel Hernia and when I don't take the Trammies, my stomach feels like >>>>. Good stuff...especially the first dose in the morning ...150 mgs with a good cup of Joe and I'm feeling awesome in an hour and pretty much good to go for the day.

  11. #71
    trinity is offline New Member
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    Please help me?

    I can not seem to locate info I need. I have been taking low doses of Norco, and getting it online, on my own, for 6 months. OTC's were ineffective. Things my rheumatologists Rx me gave me mroe side effects that help!!! I suffer from suspected Lupus/Fibro, etc. I wanted to get real help. I only took 2 norcos a day, never more. Finally, a pain Dr. has truly cared for me, understands my problems. I never wanted to order Meds online, but Dr.s were too sketchy/ scared to death, to Rx anything effective. Finally, this Dr. gave me Ultracet. He was reluctant to give me hydro because he reserves that for cancer patients and patients w/ spinal injuries. I swear to God, people who have never experienced Lupus or Fibro pain, have NO CLUE what this pain is like!! Anyway...here is my 40K question:

    Can I go directly from taking Norco(stop cold turkey) , and take up Ultracet? Do I need to wean off Norco first? Is it OK to take a half norco a day til I wean off WHILE taking ultracet? What do I do? This is my first day on ultracet and I am choosing not to take Norco. Will I be OK? I think I may skip w/draw from Norco (hydro) because these meds are in the same class? Like I said, I can find loads of info on hydro/vicodin/norco and Ultracet alone, but not together... HELP? I'm worried and I can never tell anyone that I ordered Norco online, but it did improve my life and help me fuction and feel NORMAL. Too bad there is so much stigma for people who take opiods becasue they just want to feel NORMAL and not high

  12. #72
    sydsmom is offline New Member
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    Tramadol can be addictive because, although it is non-narcotic, it is chemically related to narcotics and binds to what are called "mu-opiod" receptors in the brain. Just as with any other drug...some will be affected or become addicted while others will not. It is reported to have potential after prolonged use to cause physical & psychological dependance. Further, it is recommended in its literature to be gradually reduced to avoid withdrawl symptoms. Im not sure why any doctor would say that is is non-addictive when the drug's literature clearly says it can be.

  13. #73
    crunchy21 is offline New Member
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    The key to getting off of Tramadol is time . When I was on tramadol. I was taking 8 a day for almost a year. When I went to get off of the Meds, it was a nightmare. I went through fevers and blackouts for about Three days. I thought I had the Flu. What I found that helped me alot was IBprohen 800 mg. I would take two of these every 4 hours. The IBU would cut the shakes and hot flashes. I also used the method of taking less every week. I can't stress enough how well IBU worked.

    I have felt the nightmare. Moderation is key to everything. Good luke to all of you. I know how you feel.

    crunchy21

  14. #74
    kyhomegirl is offline Member
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    I'd never even heard of ultram until a friend of mine, who was on pain pills, asked me to call my dr. and tell him I was having headaches, and that ultram helped. I asked her why because she had percocets, and she said she liked them better!! So apparantly they must be good for some people. I didn't try them that time but when I actually had a headache I tried them, and they made me so sick!! Tried less the next time, and felt really good.

  15. #75
    NB91679 is offline New Member
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    quote:Originally posted by debosmom
    HI, IM HOPING SOMEONE ON HERE CAN HELP, IM HOOKED ON PERCOCET...I USUALLY TAKE ANYWHERE FROM 4-7 5/325s (ENDOCETS) TWICE DAILY....I RECENTLY GOT MY HANDS ON A SCRIPT OF 50mg TRAMADOL...WHICH OF THE 2 IS STRONGER? CAN I USE THE TRAMADOL TO WEAN MYSELF OFF THE PERCOCETS? I ALSO ABOUT 15 TYLONAL WITH CODINES, WHICH OF THE 2 IF ANY SHOULD I USE TO HELP ME WEAN OFF THE PERCOCETS??? PLEASE HELP, I CANT STAND LIVING LIKE THIS ANYMORE AND THE WITHDRAWAL PAIN DOING IT COLD TURKEY IS IMPOSSIBLE, I WORK LONG SHIFTS 6 DAYS A WEEK AND CANT AFFORD TO TAKE OFF ANY TIME. ALSO, I HJAVE 1 SUBOXIN 8mg TABLET....I DONT KNOW IF I SHOULD TRY TO TAKE THAT, IVE HEARD THAT THEY PUSH YOUR BODY INTO ACUTE WITHDRAWAL IF THERE ARE ANY OPIATES IN YOUR SYSTEM...IF ANYONE OUT THERE CAN HELP, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!

    NB91679

  16. #76
    kyhomegirl is offline Member
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    I'm not sure. I think that it could definatly help you get off the percs., but me personally I like to snort my pills, and you cant do that with ultram. And it gives you a different feeling than narcotics too, but I seem to have less withdrawls when I have ultram.

  17. #77
    Byron Eckhart is offline New Member
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    I myself was on ultram from a work accident. Since it is not a narcotic they say its non additive. After about three days I felt like superman after each dose. I love them and thought well the doctor gave them to me and there non narcotic there ok. Well I took them for 6 months and let me tell you the hell I went through. I had leg restlessness I felt like I had fever I was real jumpy. It was so bad I went to the hospital well the wait was long so I called my nurse. She said I might have toxic shock syndrome. I literally was drinking almost a half a gallon of water an hour. After about a couple days I felt better. I took xanax for almost a year and just got off and switch to valium and dont have near the withdraw I did with ultram. God Bless

  18. #78
    Kris07 is offline New Member
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    Hello Every one! I was releived to see this website. I am an addict and have been addicted to vicoden, xanex, soma, meth, crack, coke... you name it for 8 yrs. The hardest to quit were the vicoden and xanex. I took about 60 vicodens and 15 white bars a day for almost 8 yrs. It almost killed me. I cleaned up and have 3 yrs clean with NO drugs and NO alcholhol. THEN I HAVE HAD 3 SURGERIES AND TOOK ULTRACET BECAUSE IT WAS A NON NARCOTIC. I THOUGHT I WOULD BE OK. MY DOCTOR AND PHARMACIST(MY AUNT) TOLD ME ULTRACET WAS SAFE. BEING AN ADDICT I TOOK 6 ULTRACET A DAY FOR A FEW MONTHS. AND OH MY GOD. THIS ADDICTION IS WORSE THAN ANYTHING I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED. I TRULY DO NOT THINK I WILL MAKE IT. IT HAS BEEN 5 DAYS OF HELL AND MY SKIN IS STILL ON FIRE. I FEEL LIKE THE PAIN IS NOT EVEN BEGINNING TO STOP. IT HAS GOTTEN WORSE EVERY DAY. Kicking Ultracet is MUCH harder than kicking herion. I am shocked they give this to addicts and call it a non-narcotic. You really dont get a buzz from it, but the withdrawls are out of this world. I trult do not think I will live through this one! Help....

  19. #79
    nautical99 is offline New Member
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    quote:Originally posted by alice1298

    Hi. Ultracet is basically the same as ultram, but with tylenol in it. The side effects, for me at least were just restlessness not being able to sleep, I'm a smoker, and I would smoke a lot. I know with me, I was very talkative. This to me, is just as dangerous as ultram. I took ultram for two years, and I quite cold turkey a montha and a half ago. It was difficult, but with the help of wellbutrin and just my determination I was able to get through it. Some people may be able to control their intake of these pills, but for me, I got out of hand and took much than I should have at a time, I grew a tolerance to them. I think it's ridiculous that doctors say this is not addictive...once they have enough cases they'll change their minds. The best way to stop taking these is to just stop, deal with the side effects and move on with your life, you'll feel so much better in the end.

  20. #80
    nautical99 is offline New Member
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    quote:Originally posted by alice1298

    Hi. Ultracet is basically the same as ultram, but with tylenol in it. The side effects, for me at least were just restlessness not being able to sleep, I'm a smoker, and I would smoke a lot. I know with me, I was very talkative. This to me, is just as dangerous as ultram. I took ultram for two years, and I quite cold turkey a montha and a half ago. It was difficult, but with the help of wellbutrin and just my determination I was able to get through it. Some people may be able to control their intake of these pills, but for me, I got out of hand and took much than I should have at a time, I grew a tolerance to them. I think it's ridiculous that doctors say this is not addictive...once they have enough cases they'll change their minds. The best way to stop taking these is to just stop, deal with the side effects and move on with your life, you'll feel so much better in the end.

  21. #81
    Dazz is offline New Member
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    Hey nautical99......thanks for the post. Could you please tell me how many were you taking on average and how many days did it take you before you started feeling normal again? I'm in the middle of a taper schedule after taking these (Ultram) for 5 years.....8 a day. I'm down to 4 tabs a day for the last week.....but I just want this hell over with now. I'm contemplating just stopping since I have a few days off work here. I just want this sh-- over with.

  22. #82
    aarond is offline New Member
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    good to see there are others out there. i've been taking 4x50mgs of ultram/tramadol a day for 7 years now. the last time i tried to quit was while studying abroad back in 2000. i stopped cold turkey (backpack was stolen) and found myself waking up in a hospital after a seizure. that scared me enough to stay hooked for some time now. but enough is enough. i've decided to cut out one pill a week, and once i get down to one 50mg a day, start taking a half tablet of zoloft to keep myself sane.

    does this sound like an okay way to go? i don't have health insurance, and right now there isn't any money to consult with a doctor. so... i'd really appreciate any thoughts/tips/tricks any of you out there might have to help kick this thing.

    -a

  23. #83
    aarond is offline New Member
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    good to see there are others out there. i've been taking 4x50mgs of ultram/tramadol a day for 7 years now. the last time i tried to quit was while studying abroad back in 2000. i stopped cold turkey (backpack was stolen) and found myself waking up in a hospital after a seizure. that scared me enough to stay hooked for some time now. but enough is enough. i've decided to cut out one pill a week, and once i get down to one 50mg a day, start taking a half tablet of zoloft to keep myself sane.

    does this sound like an okay way to go? i don't have health insurance, and right now there isn't any money to consult with a doctor. so... i'd really appreciate any thoughts/tips/tricks any of you out there might have to help kick this thing.

    -a

  24. #84
    dixientexas is offline Junior Member
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    Hi fellow trammie users. I can tell you tramdol is very addicting. I am a hydrocodone addict,I take 120 mg of hydrocodone a day, and I would pop more if my hubby did not hold my script for me. But when I run out of Hydros I know I can always count on Tramadol, and I will take 3-4 of them and it will stop me from withdrawing from them, I never fell a buzz from then but I do not have withdraws, I get major body aches especially in my legs I can't sleep, diaherra, and I feel like I have the major flu. But the trammies make this go away. My Dr. has warn me that taking effexor, and I take 150mg of it and tramadol could cause seizures, I have not experienced that thank God, but it is possible.

  25. #85
    Dazz is offline New Member
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    Hi aarond- You'll be ok cutting 1 pill (or even 3/4 a tab a week) I'm cutting by one tab every 7 days. My Dr. said to cut by 1 tab every 6-8 days......but that when I get to the smaller doses of 3-2-1 to stay on them for 8-10 days before cutting. He said to minimize the withdrawals to stay on the dose until I feel ok then to cut to the next dose. This is so JACKED up. I want this sh-- over with.....but no way do I want a seizure and can't afford to be ill at work. I have people to deal with from the beginning of my work day till the end.......I can't be a nutcase with them!

  26. #86
    Dazz is offline New Member
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    BE CAREFUL DIXIE! Tramadol is a Mother ------! You'll be getting off Hydro and find yourself in a mess with Tram. This stuff is bad, bad, BAD!

  27. #87
    morticia is offline Member
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    I ve tryed utlram and i felt it nothing for me I have a very high tolerance for painkillers im on viconin right now and i found that im very addicted to it but with my experience with that med the withdrawal from it only seems to last about a day once im off completely. if any body has any questions about this feel free to email at morticia@hvc.rr.com im here to help good luck

  28. #88
    polka865 is offline New Member
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    Hey everyone I had seizures while taking ultram (three different times) the last one was almost fatal. When that being said I also was taking it like i was suspose to either. But now i am very scared of it and how addicting it is and that seizures can happen with maybe 7 in my system.. I can take 10 hyrdros and feel fine althought thats not healthy either...dot

  29. #89
    kyhomegirl is offline Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    118

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    Oh my gosh!! Was that after taking seven or withdrawling from them??

  30. #90
    aarond is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    .
    Posts
    3

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    thanks dazz. i appreciate the advice.

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