[criminie]

Hi
I'm transferring from methadone to subutex, coming from a relatively high meth dose (55 mg.). I think my doctor is fairly clueless, so I need some good advice here.
From what I've read, I shouldn't have dosed with subutex so soon after my last Methadone dose. I took 4 mg. subutex 48 hrs. after my last dose of Methadone, which was a half dose (~27 mg.). My doctor, btw, told me I could take it after 24 hrs.! But at 48 hrs., it didn't seem to do me any harm. I mean, I'm sick no matter what - either from meth withdrawls, or from bupe antagonism - who can tell? Anyway, it wasn't any worse. But here's the question: at 60 hrs., after another 8 mgs., I'm still sick. Can I get my sick off by taking a much larger dose of subutex, or am I gonna be sick no matter what? I know how heroin or morphine would work, but this stuff is different, and I don't know what to do. TIA!

—
J. Criminie

[mpvt]

The problem that I see here is you moved to buprenorphene from 55 mgs of methadone.That's way to high a dose to make the jump and that's why your withdrawling.At 55mgs of methadone you should need only a small dose of buprenorphene say 4-6 mgs tops.Don't underestimate the power of this drug.I have a opiate chart that states buprenorphene as 40 times stronger than morphine.Also buprenorphene binds strongly to your opiate receptors so it won't matter how much morphine or heroin you take it won't work,you won't even notice you've taken it.You can do one of two things and that's 1) Keep taking thesubutex and weather the storm (could be up to a couple weeks).Or 2)Go back on methadone and get yourself stabile at 30mgs or less then make the jump over to subutex.Good luck to you and let me know how you make out.Hang in there......Dave

[criminie]

The reason I mentioned heroin and morphine is because I understand how they work - you're sick, you take more, you get well. And they all work interchangeably. But the bupe doesn't seem to act that way, so I don't know which way to best alleviate my symptoms with it.
Going back on methadone is not an option. I have to piss methadone-clean in two weeks, simple as that, so I have to deal with where I'm at. Any advice on how best to do that will be appreciated!

—
J. Criminie

[matthewb]

www.detox-narconon.org
1800-5055949 ext 701
Active Rep (Gerry Baldwin)

Call my dad he deels with people and gets them on a program that meets there needs. its a free phone call and I have read the success stories of people who were ready to die because of the drugs they were on. they are now now happy and excelling in life and cant believe how they could be were they are now. its worth the phone call.


Matthew Baldwin
http://www.cchr.com/
Citizens Commission on Human Rights

[criminie]

quote:Originally posted by matthewb

www.detox-narconon.org
1800-5055949 ext 701
Active Rep (Gerry Baldwin)

Call my dad he deels with people and gets them on a program that meets there needs. its a free phone call and I have read the success stories of people who were ready to die because of the drugs they were on. they are now now happy and excelling in life and cant believe how they could be were they are now. its worth the phone call.


Matthew Baldwin
http://www.cchr.com/
Citizens Commission on Human Rights

Well Matt, thanks for the helpful spam. You worry about your engrams, I'll worry about mine.

—
J. Criminie

[criminie]

Just an update for the benefit of anyone who might have to go through this.
I went through about three days of withdrawls, though the symptoms were not as bad as "cold turkey" would've been. Very, very uncomfortable, unable to sleep or eat, but not heaving my guts out. The fourth day, I felt much better, was able to eat, and got a fews hours of sleep, here and there. Upping the bupe dose seemed to make little difference in the way I felt. By day five, I'm still shaky, but no real dope sickness, perhaps due to lack of sleep.
So there you have it. It can be done, (see first post for details), if necessary, but you will be sick some days, but not so bad as it would be without the bupe. I also think you should wait a little longer than I did, before taking the first dose.

—
J. Criminie

[3discsoutofwhack]

Congrads, and good luck in your new found freedom
they call me 3discs

[matthewb]

I am happy to here you are making it through this challenge in your life I wish you all the best.

I only wish to offer another option to people who may want to find another way that they so far do not know about. The bad rumors about "it" come from a miss understanding of what it is about and lies that come from people with vested interest, ie. 6 billion dollar a year pharmaceutical companies and psychiatry who are pushing these drugs for profit. Sorry I suppose that debate is for another Forum or thread.

Keep fighting the good fight were there is a will there is a way. You can do it.


Matthew Baldwin
http://www.cchr.com/
Citizens Commission on Human Rights

[mpvt]

Good to hear that you're doing better Criminie!!!There is a saying that goes with buprenorphene and that is "less is more" so don't be afraid to come down a milligram or two as it can make a big difference in the way you feel.Good luck and keep us informed.....Dave

[Ruthie100]

quote:Originally posted by criminie

Hi
I'm transferring from methadone to subutex, coming from a relatively high meth dose (55 mg.). I think my doctor is fairly clueless, so I need some good advice here.
From what I've read, I shouldn't have dosed with subutex so soon after my last Methadone dose. I took 4 mg. subutex 48 hrs. after my last dose of Methadone, which was a half dose (~27 mg.). My doctor, btw, told me I could take it after 24 hrs.! But at 48 hrs., it didn't seem to do me any harm. I mean, I'm sick no matter what - either from meth withdrawls, or from bupe antagonism - who can tell? Anyway, it wasn't any worse. But here's the question: at 60 hrs., after another 8 mgs., I'm still sick. Can I get my sick off by taking a much larger dose of subutex, or am I gonna be sick no matter what? I know how heroin or morphine would work, but this stuff is different, and I don't know what to do. TIA!

—
J. Criminie

Hi, Criminie:

I am in a similar situation. Of course, several days have passed since you posted this. I hope things have improved for you.

I was on prescription narcotics for over half a decade. When I began to improve, I then sought out a new pain management physician who prescribed Buprenorphine (injectable) for my chronic pain, and it worked like a charm for me.

I had some withdrawal, but it subsided after about a week. Mostly, it just left me feeling exhausted, so I slept through the worst of it. I am now in a new part of the country and it has turned my medical life upside down. I am still on Buprenex, but soon I will be completely out. I see a new doctor in a week who I hope will keep me on Buprenex until I feel I can taper off. I am at a low dosage, but I am very serious about getting off of all opiates.

I hope to hear how you are doing. This is my first post to this board and I would like to read how well people are holding up while going through med changes and tapering. Best of luck.

-Ruth

[Ruthie100]

quote:Originally posted by mpvt

I have a opiate chart that states buprenorphene as 40 times stronger than morphine.

Hi:

I am new here. I have never heard of this. Could you please post a link to this chart? I would appreciate it very much. Many thanks.

-Ruth

[Ruthie100]

How did the chart author arrive at those ratios? I understand the benchmarks given for codeine (30 mg) and morphine (10 mg) are the low end of the therapeutic dose range for each. Looking at the aspirin-to-morphine ratio (3600 mg aspirin = 10 mg morphine), then it would take slightly over 11 adult aspirin (at the standard 325 mg each) to equal a minimum therapeutic dose of morphine. Yet an ER patient in severe pain being told, "We're going to give you 11 aspirin. Don't worry -- it will give you the same pain relief as a dose of morphine" seems absurd and ludicrous.

And if buprenorphine really were 40 times the strength of morphine, it would make sense that morphine could be used to detox people from buprenorphine. Yet it's always the other way around in practice.

I'd hate to see people who could benefit from buprenorphine pain relief scared off by a spurious ratio.

-Ruth

[mpvt]

Buprenorphene has a 48-72 hr half life which makes it a great drug to use for opiate recovery.Morphine is to weak for most addicts and you need to take it every couple hours.Thats why methadone and buprenorphene work so well.Methadone patients usually dose once a day while a stable buprenorphene patient can dose evry other day or some even dose every third day......Dave

[sublingual]

This is 100% C5RAP. tHIS baldwin A HOLE IS TRYING TO PUSH SCIENTIOLOGY DOWN YOUR AND EVERYONEOS THROAT, HE SAYS www.detox-narconon.org
1800-5055949 ext 701
Active Rep (Gerry Baldwin)

Call my dad he deels with people and gets them on a program that meets there needs. its a free phone call and I have read the success stories of people who were ready to die because of the drugs they were on. they are now now happy and excelling in life and cant believe how they could be were they are now. its worth the phone call.
hIS Dd makes lots of money if you go to narconon. I went there. they worship L. Ron Hubbard. I have studied scientology. This is such lies. they think all drugs are lypophelic (fat soluable0 AND BY TAKING MASSIVE almoast leathal doses of nicadermic acid (niacin and sitting in a sauna for 5 hopurs a day yopu will sweat all these toxins out and not have cravings. I went to arrohead and in withdrawl or detox i sat and was forced to look into someopneseyes for 1 hour without moving. I threw up and allmoast died but they are not allowed to givew you any meds. all I could take was calcium and vinigar. YUK, and tons of vitamins on a 100% empty sxtomach. Look up on google the FACTS ABOUT NARCONON. they ruin l;ives, it is a cult. I swear to god, they want you to stay there and leave family and friends. there is not 1 certifieddr there. the addicts who wotked in withdrawl just got out 1 month earlier. I cant say enough terrable things about this CULT. RThey prey on the weak. I will find the website written by REAL DR's. they are outlawed in certain stated and back to my pointy it is proven drugs are not all lypophelic. pot is it. coke is out in 4-5 days and schoos are out in a day. this place is such a scam, do not go, pm me andf I will tell you more. AND BALDWIN, you should rot in hell, how dare you prey on the weak, Oh I got lots more, I got stuff tyhat will make you FREAK[}][}][}][}][}]NARCONON[}][}][}][}]the devil







I ka hunt seammen 2 think so good on these here orange 8 milligram suboxone dohickies

[sublingual]

and the "success stories" he talks about. WEll once you a5re there you are ade to write one and they have millions and they are all BS. YEp everyone who goes has tio write the phoney success stories they are all ****. the idea is ingenious. can anyone who has been there back me up..hold on i will find the site that the dr's wrote about.






I ka hunt seammen 2 think so good on these here orange 8 milligram suboxone dohickies

[sublingual]

here are the sites
www.shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/narconon/ - 7k
www.shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/narconon/ - 7k
Read NARCONON EXPOSED ALSO

I ka hunt seammen 2 think so good on these here orange 8 milligram suboxone dohickies

[matthewb]

Narconon is not scientology. They do use scientology teck to handle people and get them well but it is not a church of scientology.

Narconon has acknowledgements from Mayors, City Councils, Governors, legislatures, judges and other social betterment organizations to Narconon organizations worldwide for there success.

In May of 1999, L. Ron Hubbard received the prestigious Antonietti Labisi Silver Plaque for his work, among other contributions, in developing the drug rehabilitation and prevention methodology of the Narconon program.

They are aducating kids on the harms of drugs and giving them the know how on how to say no and wy they are choosing to say know. They are saving people and turning there lives around.

whats wrong with that?
If you want to attack some one who is a threate to our world and our people. Take a look at the drug companies who are putting people in addictid desperate situations and the oil companies who are poluting our air so fast that in 50 years there will be no such thing as a glacior. Narcanon is truly helping people, Contrary to the beliefs of those with vested interests whom will only benifit by keeping you down and under prescriptions.





Matthew Baldwin
http://www.cchr.com/
Citizens Commission on Human Rights

[leiito]

It's a mother********************er going down from 60mg of meth like I did. I've been on heroin and/or methadone for over 20 years, couple of short breaks (cold turkey smack, cold turkey meth, ibogaine), but since I seem to somewhat function and hate being hooked my doc suggested subutex. As per her advice I skipped meth for 2 days (took a bit of smack of course) and when I started feeling sick went for my first sub dose, 8mg. Waiting for sub to kick in I keep feeling worse and worse until I can't walk, it's like all strength has been sucked from me. I go back to doc she tells me this is normal, they just neglected to mention it. ******************** all I go and smoke 3 gs of smack and take 3mg of Xanax, feel nothing from smack, xanax seems to help, I sleep for 2 hours, wake up, take more Xanax. According to medical lit I am risking death and coma, goes to show how ********************ed up I felt. Felt asleep, thank ********************.
Waoke up today, feel weak but not sick like heroin withdrawal sick, kinda like mild meth withdrawal. I go for my 2nd dose of sub, tell the doc what happened, she shrugs it off and gives me 16mg sub, which I take. 3 hours later I feel like ******************** but not so shellshocked like yesterday, still cant eat, cant sleep. I wish I was under anesthetic. Since I know from experience smack helps nothing I am not wasting money on that ********************, I'll try and weather it out, tomorrow, day 3 that is, is supposed to be better. Hope so.
Funny thing, what I feel resembles withdrawal in some ways (backpain, running nose), but sans the usual nerve wrecking, my head is strangely clear, perhaps the main reason I'm sticking with the plan.
According to old Sub hands things change on the 3rd day. I considered going back to meth but it seems like a loser's move. I feel extremely uncomfortable but can survive one more day of this. I hope.

[leiito]

Originally Posted by matthewb

www.detox-narconon.org
1800-5055949 ext 701
Active Rep (Gerry Baldwin)

Call my dad he deels with people and gets them on a program that meets there needs. its a free phone call and I have read the success stories of people who were ready to die because of the drugs they were on. they are now now happy and excelling in life and cant believe how they could be were they are now. its worth the phone call.


Matthew Baldwin
http://www.cchr.com/
Citizens Commission on Human Rights

Dear Matthew

Can I call your people deeling Dad? I wish to be happy and excel, but alas, no Narconon facilities in this backward country.

Would you also care to tell us more about this Scientology thing, I know it's a noble endeavour and never understood why people make such a fuss if profit is made from helping people to be happy and excel. Also, some people just need to be positively manipulated, it's for their own good, they just don't know it yet.

Leiito

[leiito]

Originally Posted by matthewb

Narconon is not scientology. They do use scientology teck to handle people and get them well but it is not a church of scientology.

Narconon has acknowledgements from Mayors, City Councils, Governors, legislatures, judges and other social betterment organizations to Narconon organizations worldwide for there success.

In May of 1999, L. Ron Hubbard received the prestigious Antonietti Labisi Silver Plaque for his work, among other contributions, in developing the drug rehabilitation and prevention methodology of the Narconon program.

They are aducating kids on the harms of drugs and giving them the know how on how to say no and wy they are choosing to say know. They are saving people and turning there lives around.

whats wrong with that?
If you want to attack some one who is a threate to our world and our people. Take a look at the drug companies who are putting people in addictid desperate situations and the oil companies who are poluting our air so fast that in 50 years there will be no such thing as a glacior. Narcanon is truly helping people, Contrary to the beliefs of those with vested interests whom will only benifit by keeping you down and under prescriptions.





Matthew Baldwin
http://www.cchr.com/
Citizens Commission on Human Rights

Matthew,

Kudos on the prestigous Anonietti Labisi silver plaque for Ron L.'s efforts with addictid desperate situations and the threate that there is no such thing as a glacior.

I fear however that ignoramus on forums (or is plural fora?) don't realize what a respected and well-known award the Labisi silver plaque is, perhaps you should enlighten them. In this country the silver Labisi is on par with Nobel's if not higher.

[laugar]

Originally Posted by leiito

It's a mother********************er going down from 60mg of meth like I did. I've been on heroin and/or methadone for over 20 years, couple of short breaks (cold turkey smack, cold turkey meth, ibogaine), but since I seem to somewhat function and hate being hooked my doc suggested subutex. As per her advice I skipped meth for 2 days (took a bit of smack of course) and when I started feeling sick went for my first sub dose, 8mg. Waiting for sub to kick in I keep feeling worse and worse until I can't walk, it's like all strength has been sucked from me. I go back to doc she tells me this is normal, they just neglected to mention it. ******************** all I go and smoke 3 gs of smack and take 3mg of Xanax, feel nothing from smack, xanax seems to help, I sleep for 2 hours, wake up, take more Xanax. According to medical lit I am risking death and coma, goes to show how ********************ed up I felt. Felt asleep, thank ********************.
Waoke up today, feel weak but not sick like heroin withdrawal sick, kinda like mild meth withdrawal. I go for my 2nd dose of sub, tell the doc what happened, she shrugs it off and gives me 16mg sub, which I take. 3 hours later I feel like ******************** but not so shellshocked like yesterday, still cant eat, cant sleep. I wish I was under anesthetic. Since I know from experience smack helps nothing I am not wasting money on that ********************, I'll try and weather it out, tomorrow, day 3 that is, is supposed to be better. Hope so.
Funny thing, what I feel resembles withdrawal in some ways (backpain, running nose), but sans the usual nerve wrecking, my head is strangely clear, perhaps the main reason I'm sticking with the plan.
According to old Sub hands things change on the 3rd day. I considered going back to meth but it seems like a loser's move. I feel extremely uncomfortable but can survive one more day of this. I hope.

hi i have been on subutex for six months now it took about a week before
i felt ok the clear head that stays with you. i want to go on the meth because its not working for me with the subs. i have never tried meth
could you tell me what it feels like i dont want to get back on the gear
but thats whats going to happen. the subs work but i dont like the way
they make you feel.but good luck to you hope all works out