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methadone to sub
methadone to sub
I already posted in the prescription drugs section, but realized that probably isn't the right spot since the topic is in here and I didn't get any responses...
anyway, I'm son planning to make attempt #2 (3?) To go over to sub. This tile I wanna do it right.
ive come down from 130 to 65mls and M hoping to get to 30 and stable within 3mo or less. My old sub Dr(the clinic des wont do it and claim to know nothing about it say its not possible.)... but this Dr will work with me and does it in the office, uses the COWS, and starts at 2mg, wait 45 min then 2mg more if necessary and so on.
Biggest fear is the 3+ day wait then the not knowing if it will work this time.)
Hello and welcome to the forum. Nice to hear you want to switch from the methadone to subs and get yourself clean. It is entirely possible to use the subs in that manner. We have a member here Cheekysod, or Cheeky as we like to call her that made the switch herself and has lots of experience doing so. She can guide you and give you all kinds of help. Hopefully she will see your post here and reply soon. I would highly recommend her to you.
I used subs myself to get clean from mostly a 7 year narcotic pill addiction, but I have used almost every drug out there including methadone. It is one of the most addictive drugs there is. The only thing I myself would like to tell you regarding having your doctor induct you in the office is that there is no way he should be telling you it will take 2mg's, and maybe 2mg's more to get you stable. I myself inducted at only a total daily dose of 1.7mg's and now I'm clean for 2 weeks. But everyone is different.
Most here on the forum use an induction and taper plan that has proved very successful to many, many others. I used this exact plan myself. It is imperative you be in moderate to severe withdrawals before you begin, and have a score of at least 26 on that cows sheet you mention. Then the idea is to induct at the LOWEST EFFECTIVE DOSE of subs.
I will put the link to the plan at the bottom of this post. Please click on it and read through it very carefully. Pay close attention to the INDUCTION section as this is the most critical part of using the subs. You begin with a dose of only .5mg instead of the 2mg's your doctor wants to use. Then you add another .5mg if needed and follow the plan from there. Maybe you yourself could be completely stable on far less than what your doctor is advising. Maybe not, but it's certainly to your benefit to try it the way so many others have successfully done. Up to you of course, but at least read the plan and see what you think. Someone will be here to answer your questions if you should have any,
Again welcome and I hope this helps. All the best to you in your efforts to change your life for the better.
Suboxone/Subutex Induction and Taper Plan
as long as you are honestly on 30mg, and wait till you score a 26 , you should be ok starting on the 2mg they recommend. yes i inducted in the office too, (we dont all have the ability to induct ourselves), my biggest problem was that i was on a higher dose than i told them. yeh i screwed myself over. sooo i went into prec wd. omg that sucked.
Originally Posted by merri-not-done
so my advice is to honestly, wait out till a 26. and yeh, if they are gonna do 2mg at a time, be patient and go with it. hopefully you dont end up on 12mg like i did. i beleive it was too high, but like i say i screwed myself over.
personally, i think you should be able to stabilize on 4 to 6 mg tops, assuming this doc knows what he is doing. but basically, if you get the induction done, and get stable, thats the priority.
(karen, lots of us had to use a clinic, so we are not able to say, ''no way should you do it like that''' to them, or we end up gettin laughed at ok. remember we all dont get takeaways to do what we want with""
hey merri, ? can i ask why you werent successful the last two times, ?
did you induct too early and go into precipitated withdrawls...?
and p.s i took my last dose of methadone on a thursday. thought i would be smart and lied about my 'actual' dose, so was on much higher than 30mg. then i had some morphine on the friday, thinkin i was clever.
nothing all weekend, and into clinic on the monday. no cows sheet was used. and i was no where near a 26. doctor had a fit and blamed me. wow, i was a sick puppy.
so the best advice i can give you, is yeh, make sure you are on 30mg or less if possible. and score yourself honestly. and induct slowly... subs are supposed to work within 20minutes, so waiting that 45min is a good idea.
sounds like your doctor at least has a bit of a clue.
but go for it. its worth it to get rid of those liquid handcuffs mate.
Originally Posted by cheekysod
I didn't mean that at all. What I meant was that the doctor has no way of knowing what dose a person can be stable on. I didn't mean it like you think at all Cheeky. I will post more about it on my thread.
I switched over from Methadone 30 MG to Subs succesfully. I was stabilized at 24 MG of Sub but my Doc was an idiot. I probably could have been stabilized on much, much less. Most likely they will try giving you 8 MG at a time, not 2 MG pills. Good luck Merri, keep us posted.
COMPLETELY CLEAN (Sub FREE) as of 7/20/12
"I don't like the drugs, but the drugs LIKE ME" Marilyn Manson
the guy has already said the doctor will give 2mg at a time.
merri. you can do it this time mate. still curious as to why it didnt work last two times. did ya start too early.?
Last edited by Anonymous; 07-30-2012 at 11:01 AM.
Hey, Merri, I hope you do make the switch and go for it! Difficult thing to do when you think about what you have to go through to get there, but you can do this. Cheeky has given you great advice, and like she told you, she's been there herself. Post back and let us know how you're getting on!
Ok as to why it didn't work before.... 1st try was from a friend when neither of us had any clue to the point we swallowed the oils the 1st time...
Then I went to a doc, and reacted badly. Maybe he had me on too mud for the amt k was using.? I think it was 32 Mg for like 5bags of H.
next time I detoxed impatient (up to 50 bags iv H at that point) and went into mmt immediately after which prolly saved my life.
then... in all my brilliance as it took me almost a year to stop using over the 'done, I decided to switch over to heroine for a wearing then went back to the doc, who gave me percs to 'step down' which never happened. So I managed about 12 or 13 hours with no H and was praying for death. Could not get out of bed to go 2 blocks in car with driver to doc office, BUT I had some leftover and told him I would try by phone. Started with 4 then 8 then tried 8 more and was still in bed and desperate... I think I shot a bunch of H then sniffed some morphine then went to the mmt clinic to beg my coulselor and the psychiatrist to take me back, in a complete fog.
They agreed to re-start me at 30 the following morning.
The only good that came of that disaster was that I stabilized at 85 rather than 130mg.
Now... if only I knew then what I know now lol
Ps my counselor will never let me live that down even now years later.
Swallowed the oils = swallow the pills
hope you have learnt then. to make sure you are at a 26. and certainly dont take 8mg at a time. no way.
thats far too much. and no wonder you screwed it up...
2mg at a time sounds like the go for you. hope you can stabilize on a relatively low amount.
if you take the right amount, when you are in moderate to severe withdrawl, you will feel better in about 20 minutes.....
Last edited by Anonymous; 07-31-2012 at 06:27 PM.
'm currently following Roberts Sub taper plan as outlined in the link this poster attached and advised the op to "read carefully". I successfully inducted at 6mg after tapering to 30mg Methadone after 16 years using the method advised here and want to correct the information given as it seems this poster was confused. The plan states " We suggest using an initial 1mg - 2mg dose for those with long term heroin addictions and long term methadone addictions" right in the link the poster provided and told THEM to read. Sorry to butt in here but thought may be important for someone in the future. While I respect as in this posters case a pill addict may be successful-especially if it was a small amount for a few years of pills-a long term methadone and/or H addict could be discouraged after days of misery waiting to induct if starting at .5mg and cause them to give up before giving it a fair chance. PLEASE don't! It has worked great for me and sounds like you're lucky to have a Doc who has a good plan for you mnd!
Please be real sure you have correct knowledge of the plan yourself before advising someone else to "read through it carefully and pay close attention to the INDUCTION section as this is the most critical part of using the subs" with a situation obviously different than yours and incorrectly saying what the plan suggests if you don't even know! At LEAST!
Sorry to take up your space here-never even posted before this/never had NEED to- just don't want anyone else reading this to have a bad experience-because has saved my life and sounds like you're headed down same path to being free real soon too.
Good luck man!! Freedom from the liquid handcuffs IS possible and thanks Cheekysod as you've been my inspiration and provide a wealth of knowledge and advice. Easy to see you know your stuff and been there and doing great now! Thanks Robert for saving and giving hope to those of us who thought we couldn't be saved and had lost all hope!
Originally Posted by Strong Desire
hey sick of subs. good post mate. yeh this person has been told about giving 'misleading' information based on her two weeks of clean time, and a really low induction for her.
we are all different, and i totally agree with you..... glad you are doing well. good on ya
I met with 3 clinicians yesterday and all said I would not be able to proceed with my plan because that's not how it works. They claim that the 30mg methadone is equivalent to 32mg of suboxone and that's the only way I would be saved from complete misery. Then I could expect a 6-12 month taper. None could understand the logic, as my documented goal is to taper OFF medication-assisted therapy, for which ive been cleared as a stable candidate as far as clean, sober, stable etc time.
this was 1 nurse and 2 social workers, not my physician.
wErE aLL sTArs iN The DOpE s H O w.... thet love u when yr on th cover , when yr not they love another!
Originally Posted by rxqueen83
unfortunately a lot of professionals have no clue about subs.. i switched from higher doses of methadone than 30mg, (yes i did it wrong and went into prec wd) BUT i only started on 12mg. which was actually far too high.
Originally Posted by merri-not-done
they are wrong. thats all there is to say....
good luck.. subs are the way to get off in my opinion tho. i have been off them coming up 2 years now. never looked back. NO HABIT. ITS AMAZING.
Not sure if I'm in quite the right spot to be posting these questions and stuff, but here goes.
I've been on methadone for a decade and have gotten down to 20 milligrams recently. I don't feel great on it, but some days are ok.
The thing is, I don't understand this stuff about "half life". Why should it make such a difference in withdrawals if something takes twelve hours for half of it to leave your system or thirty six hours?
I mean I'm wondering if I should try switching to subutex or suboxone, or just try and go down with the methadone to zero....
Also, I've always been a "fast metabolizer" of methadone....it *never* lasts two to three days, even when I was on 110 milligrams. If I had to skip a day I always felt it - a LOT. So, does that mean the methadone is clearing my system faster and I might have an easier time of it if I stay with the methadone detox instead of switching to suboxone? Or subutex? Since I never used needles and only sniffed heroin, I'm thinking I might be able to get subutex cause I read some people get more depression with suboxone. And if you get hit by a bus or something and need to be "de-pained" doesn't the agonist or the antagonist or *something* in the suboxone keep you from being able to get adequate pain control in case of emergency? Sorry, lol, I have obviously read a bunch of stuff I'm not too clear about. And I have not been screwing around with anything for ten years either. Oh, recently they gave me some ativan to help with the anxiety stuff.....I think old anxiety issues, like panic attacks, started kicking in when I got to like thirty milligrams of methadone. Could have been all in my head, of course, but then again, a lot of stuff is. Anyway, any help any one can offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks already. a.
ana im in the same position but i am on mmt since last dec 5th, almost a year,,im geting my 1st takehome this week!!! i just saw my socalled councler , im so happy i get a day a week away from the klinik, in 30 days i get another 1,,
but im getin insurance at my job in november n i want to switch to subs so i am not a klinik patient anymore..
im used to 100 mg a day, ive nver missed a day ,over 300 days in a row, i like the energry i get from the pink liquid,, will subs giv me some energy?????,if not i might stay on mmt for another year. your friend kman..
cheeky u r cool, i thing it was u that beat mdone,, awesome i know 2 others that did it aswell, , im 39 never shotup, so i hope im a canidate 4 BUPE?, see ya kman
Last edited by crazyclearwater; 09-26-2012 at 06:50 AM.
I've never taken a suboxone or subutex, so I don't know how it feels on them. But I'm pretty sure that to make the switch to subs they usually tell you at the methadone clinic that you have to be "comfortable" on thirty milligrams of methadone or less before you can make the switch. So I guess you would have have to start to drop down from 100 first. But you know, people who work at methadone clinics tend to think people should stay on methadone forever, or at least that's been my experience......so hopefully someone who knows for sure when it's possible to switch will let you know a.
hmmmmmm, i can't find the edit button for the above post of mine, help! I just wanted to add that I guess the real question is has anyone here detoxed completely and been drug free from methadone for a few months, and also at another time in their life done the detox and had time clean using subs? Which one is easier! I mean I know it depends a lot on the person.....but the fatigue with this methadone step down of at this point one milligram a week (again, I'm at 20 milligrams now) it's like I just have these few "good hours" after I take my methadone and then even at twenty milligrams, I'm having withdrawal symptoms, like sweating, fatigue, anxiety "lead legs" back pain.....I take my dose and an hour later it's all gone and I'm fine for like six to eight hours then it slowly, slowly gets worse and worse. It's just been like ten weeks of this going from 30 to 20....Does suboxone make it an easier step down? Are the withdrawal symptoms much different? I know it's not all that likely that someone has done both kinds of withdrawal successfully, but, hey, I thought I'd ask. Thanks, it's helpful just reading that people have actually succeeded in doing any kind of detox. a.
i have done it both ways.. i counted down off methadone in 01, got to zero at clinic, but was dabbling on the side. anyway i moved to another country, (yeh omg how could i.) but i had no way to score anything. i suffered for a couple of months i swear....i managed to stay clean for a year or two.... and well, back into it... yeh yeh i know....
this time round, i used subs. switched off methadone to subs, and i tapered using subs.
i beleive it is much easier to use subs to get clean, than methadone...
Uh oh I thought i just hit reply....and now it's saying "quote quote"....Oh well, least of my problems at this point :P . Thank you so much cheeky. When you have some time could you elaborate a little bit please? Like did you dabble after one milligram because it felt so bad? I'm trying to figure out what the *jump* is gonna be like, and if it's gonna be this thing of having some fair to middling withdrawal symptoms all the way to zero. Does it help any to go more slowly then one milligram a week? Like would one every ten days be more likely to stop the wd sypmptoms? It's like as soon as I feel like I got used to the dip, I'm dipping down another milligram. Sometimes it doesn't get any worse going down one more, but it just never stops. Then, suddenly like, I got to twenty, went down to nineteen and it was like it all eleven milligrams suddenly did some kind of exponential thing....or I guess cumulative is more like the right word. I told them to put me back at twenty and let me see what it's like at one milligram every two weeks for October.
I feel like such a wuss!
Anyway, I'll stop babbling. Just any kind of thing you can add when you have time, like the difference in the feelings or wd symptoms that made it more tolerable on the subs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for your time. a. Oh, and does subs have a longer half life than methadone??
Ok, can someone please tell me how you edit a post AFTER it's posted here please? I went into the settings area and changed it to be a regular old edit box, but once I post something I never see any way to go back and change it. When I click on my name at the top of my posts it tells me I am NOT ON LINE even though I am logged in and quite obviously here.
I wanted to say to CC that I didn't understand what you were asking at first, but now I realize that I think you want to get info on exactly the same think as I do, at least in part; that part being can some kind person who has experienced both methadone and suboxone spend a little time trying to describe if there is any difference in the feelings one experiences on suboxone compared to methadone. I mean I know its different for everyone and so you might feel like you are wasting your time answering a dumb question, but you know, it's can help people to make a decision if they can get some feedback sometimes. I mean I can see how when CC is saying that he has a "warm feeling and lots of energy" on 100 milligrams of methadone, I know what he means. I was worried when I first went to methadone from sniffing heroin that it might feel, well, that it might feel like what it does now while I'm at twenty milligrams of methadone while I'm detoxing, even at one hundred milligrams. I didn't know if being "stablized" on methadone meant that you would still have to expect to feel somewhat bad all the time. And, of course, it doesn't or didn't for me. I felt really well on higher doses of methadone. I had energy and all that good stuff, altho I was not high. I assume, since I can hardly remember, that actually a normal healthy person might feel that way, with energy and happiness and maybe even emotional stablility. It's just been a while since I've felt what it's like to feel like a normal healthy person due do trying to detox off methadone. But now, aside from fears about the induction thing with/if switching to suboxone, I am trying to just get a feel for what the suboxone "feels like" when you are first comfortable on it, and second when you are detoxing on it. I hear a *lot* of restless leg syndrome in the subs forum, which I never had, as an example.....I guess I'm worried about trading in these detox symptoms I'm having now and I'm more familiar with, with new ones that might be worse.
And I looked up stuff about the half life thing as best I could, because logically, it *seemed* to seem that the longer you had some stuff in your system, the slower the withdrawal pains should set in....or something like that. But what I think I have gathered is that your own body won't start to make "it's own endorphins" or whatever it's supposed to be making until every last drop of the garbage in has been garbage outed. I still don't get why it takes soooooooooooooooooooo long tho with the methadone.....I mean after ten days its 1/164th of the intial dose....or was it bupes that had a 36-48 hour half-life?
Whatever, if anyone can tell me how to edit already posted posts, has any idea why it tells me I'm offline when I"m logged in and clicking on my own button, or any info on their own experience with the different feelings between methadone while on and comfortable vs. suboxone same, and then detox meth vs. sub and then paws meth vs. subs....would be appreciated. thanks much, a.
p.s. yeah something is def wrong, i logged in, it said welcome anaana and then at the end when i tried to post this, it told me an error occurred, I was not logged in.....so here's try two
Last edited by AnaAna; 09-27-2012 at 12:01 PM.
Originally Posted by AnaAna
i found that once i was below bout 30 on the methadone, it was awful the whole way down, and i screwed it up. it was really hard, and i felt like i was 'hangin out' in no time after a dose, in fact would double up some days and go without on others. yeh, not the ideal taper... for me, i could never do it on methadone. also over here we can inject it, that adds another whole dimension....
anyway, subs, once you are stable, (which if you do the proper induction you will feel GREAT) you can lower your dose, and it is FAR EASIER than a drop on methadone..
the feelings of sub, ok. when on it, you feel NORMAL. thats assuming you take the right amount and not too much and get wired.... feels a bit speedy if you have too much. i started on 12mg and next day i dropped right to 10mg... i took about 5 months to get down to .5mg of sub and i stayed put on that for over 8 months. for me i needed the backup plan. too many drugs around here. long story but it worked for me.
when i did taper to ZERO i was really scared, i was taking .25mg or less, but was scared to actually jump. in the end a real good friend gave me a nudge and said ''just do it'' well that was the best advice i ever had. i was stable, had avoided situations, felt far safer in my own head about using, and it was time...
half life, ok short life is heroin. comes on fast. out of your system fast. so more intense but shorter withdrawls.
methadone, longer half life. lasts longer. wears off more slowly, stays longer in your system, less intense but longer withdrawls. they seem to drag on FOREVER. trust me i know.
subs, long half life, they take a long time, BUT i feel it is far less intense than methadone, it is definately not pleasant, but i made it, it is tolerable, like i say, lasts longer at a less intense level...
jeez hard to explain this.
but in my opinion, i owe my life to subs.... i could never have done the same on the methadone. and also the added benefit that when on subs, its useless to use, coz subs bind very closely to the receptors so taking normal opiates when on subs is a waste of time. i needed that incentive also,.
to edit, you push the edit button lower left of your post, but you can only edit up to 5 minutes after you post...
good luck whichever way you choose to go. i will try and give you any advice i can share. on what worked for me...
I READ SUBS r easer to taper n quit so i joined mmt to stop snortin roxxy, now almost a year later im the same guy just dont owe 200 every fri n chase all ovr getin drugs, the klinik saved me but im fked till i get 5+ takehomes im getin my first 1 sat, finally after over 300 daysinarow!!!!
so im goin to taper down 10 evry other week, til 30 then get sik n start subs,its my only choice unless i wana b on mmt 4eva, n i donot,, I want subs n xanys 4 my rage..THENill b ool hopfully???//kman
Hey Ive been in the same boat. I have 8 herniated discs in my back so some type of pain relief is necessary and will be for the rest of my life considering approx. 6 spine specialist have refused surgery uless I want to be paralized the rest of my life. I was taking 40 to 50 hydro's a day some prescribed and the rest not. I got into the MMT program approx a year ago and I can honestly say my quality of life is 100% better than it was. I'm on 110mgs/day and like EVERYONE that is in MMT want to cheat a little on your take homes but you will soon find out its not worth it especially when you run out. Methadone withdrawl is a total rip in the can. If you wanting to get off of it I commend you it takes a lot of will power, But take your time and don't try to rush the process. If you get off to quick you are liable to backslide and hit the streets again In the past year I have seen this happen to several people. Or think going to a rehab is the answer and it might be for some people but remember rehab centers will lock you in a room with a cot and you will jones till your done.... With the MMt program you can do it at your own pace .... good Luck and God Bless.
Originally Posted by chasemyrabbit
You need to go without any methadone until you reach a score of 26 on the COWS (clinical opioid w/d scale) worksheet. Here is a link I wrote explaining the entire process. You will need to be on a methadone dose of about 30mg.
I've been doing this for years here and developed this process for myself when I got clean. Tell me more if there is anything pertinent like medical conditions, meds you are currently taking with doses, etc. I can then direct you appropriately. And I will be happy to induct you when you score that 26.
Keep me posted, I'm subscribed to this thread so just post here when you make it to 26, and you'll be feeling like doo doo by that time. DDC will send me an email when you post to me. Read the INDUCTION process closely and then let me know as you get close. God bless.
Last edited by Robert_325; 10-01-2012 at 04:40 PM.
I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.
Robert, thank you for replying!
Oops - I should've started my own thread. I actually [used to] have a large H habit (IV), but due to the number of attempts trying to get on suboxone I can feel a major difference when using my usual amount. And I can go much longer through out the day now - is it safe to say I have came down to a medium habit?
Anywho, the reason I'm having such a hard time inducing, is b/c the last time I waited 22 hours since my last use and thought I was in the clear to take my first dose. But unfortunately went into pwd. I was wishing for death every second! The second time I tried it I only waited 14 hours b/c I could not take the pain any longer so I dosed and was fine afterwards. But of course, being weak, I relapsed shortly after. I regret it so much b/c that was my ticket out already and I dug myself into the same hole Now I'm scared of getting pwd again as it was soooo bad! I never vomit and I was like a fountain full of vomit that day.
Sadly I don't manage pain very well so when I start to get anxiety, the chills, sneezing, and teary eyes - I always find an excuse to use "one last time" and thus, prolonging my road to getting clean...I guess the problem here becomes having to tough it out which I am so bad at :'(
My doctor prescribed me 2mg suboxones. Up to 4 the first day, 3 the second day, 2 for the next three days, 1 for three days, then half for two days. 10 days of detox total. And he only prescribes me 17 at a time. Do you think this is long enough? Also for the first dose if just 4mg made me feel better and not the full 8mg, should I stop taking more or take what I am supposed to?
I have a couple benzos for my anxiety but thinking of waiting to take them until I've started the induction. Do you think I should take them before instead so that I can actually manage waiting until I score a 26 on COWS?
I apologize for the length of this message but again, thank you for taking the time to reply
It won't let me edit my post anymore but I should have been more clear -
I can go longer throughout the day from the times I've waited 12+ hours trying to induce but end up using again. Also I should've started a new thread b/c now I feel like a sore thumb in this one since I never have used methadone before :x