[11Bravo]

history:
on Suboxone for 3 years-one and off with high doses of hydromorphone(dilaudid)-used for many years prior.
Question:
Does anyone know anything about the effects of naltrexone Post acute withdrawal in terms of its effects on opiate receptor affinity or or RGS ? i am seriously considering using this stuff after day 12.
Condition:
i feel like i have bi poler withdrawal-great in the am ******** in the pm and the inverse the next day. Now suddenly at day 9 I can barely stand up straight bc my stomach hurts so fing much. And like 3 days ago(day 6 of withdrawl, i felt what i assume to be a flush of endorphins. Aside from that I just oscilate between moping around in my PJs feeling like ai cant do anything.

PLEASE ANYONE WITH Experience with naltreXone For PAWS Please respond in as much detail as possible about your experiance with LDN and PAWS.

[Robert_325]

You're not experiencing PAWS after a few days of detox. You're still in w/d I promise you. PAWS is altogeher different.

There is some study about low dose naltrexone improving endorphines and receptor affinity but not this soon. I wouldn't even consider it for a month. I know this subject and can get into all kinds of links and information for you but it isn't time yet if ever.

Sounds like you did a cold turkey after using subs three years. Is that correct? That is insane if you did that. I can help you do this right but you need to give me some more information about what you're doing, how much, etc. Be as complete as possible if you want my help. God bless.

[11Bravo]

you wanted details: ask and you shall receive. I did not skip days and I was still a teeny sick from the last drop when i went down to .5 from 1 mg. 7 months clean from high dose high concentration dilaudded and oxy 80 2 x a day, (also 7 months on sub during this time) plus oxy ir i had laying around. the dose of dilauded was maxed out intravenously every 3 hours cause i was in the hospital but the fentynal was only for breakthrough pain.i don't recall dosing it was IV as well. i know someone is going to look at this and say (wow,opiate heaven) but it was hell. before that i was on sub for about a year. So for about three or four years give or take i was on and of sub and these 3 other painkillers. mostly dilauded , Oxy , and sub though. for about five years prior i would binge on vics or percs when i had them. and then just get sick when they were gone to help with physical and emotional trauma and PTSD.
NEWAY! so day 9 is today! i am as sick as a mofo because even though alot of the symptoms have gone from gut wrenching vomit inducing suicidal thought provoking bad acid trip simulations, i now have what appears to be a bronchitis cough( i have not smoked in years but i smoked from the time i was 9 years old till 19, and every now and then had a cig maybe 1 time a month for a year..but that was years ago). so where were we/ Day 9 and i feel like dog $h1t. i recognize i am still in acute withdrawal but i know i am in the tail end of it and its a down hill run. I have had moments where 9I swear0 I felt super high in the middle of withdrawl1 like cloud 9. i was chatting like a teenage girl, could not stop smiling-but there seems to be a correlation between this and my severe diphorisis...either i am just excited and its making me sweat or more like;ly i am getting little jumps in andrigenic activity. During the early stages of WD( was getting my ass kicked on days 2 and 3 and 4) I took 10 mg Valium to sleep but have since dc'ed that altogether. started taking clonidine 1/4 of a .01 mg pill prn for 2 days but you know how messed up my autonomic nervous systym is so i DC'ed that as well. last night i took benedryl! BiG fiNG MISTAKE! I felt stoned for about an hour but then woke up jittery as hell with mild tachycardia/palps. i mean i think i get a little tachy when i try and sleep at night during wd anyway but this def made me worse. and for the first time in 9 days I got robbed of almost all my sleep which has me pretty pissed off. i wish i could work out so bad but i am sick and being immunodeficient from the withdrawal and being sick to wit exercising would be pretty dumb right now. As of now i walk around with paper towels under my arms(NE1 have a better idea because its really bad in the morning hours when i first wake up?) and wake up with mild diarrhea every morning(works like a charm as an alarm clock, not that my body lets me ever sleep passed 330 am anyway. ) also my body temp is all f ed up in the am , if i have the heat on i am so dry i cant breath and if i don't crank the heat i feel like i am laying in a morgue...well what i assume what a morgue would feel like. i noticed something i felt every time i WD after about a week or so I get this inexplicable excruciating cramping pain so bad in my gut i cant stand up straight-like i did not eat for a month kind of cramp-and i have been eating pretty darn clean and good amounts of food-not too much though. Well maybe i go a little overboard on stuffing myself with complex carbs but i need the energy and im would rather be a bit overweight for a short period then opiod retarded forever.

As far as my health here is the deal:
No one has a fing clue. i have seen dozens of specialist. My heart was mapped out electrically and stimulated with electricity to see if any abnormal arrhythmia could be induced at one of the best cardiac facilities in the nation and they could find nothing wrong either electrically nor physiologically with my heart and attribute it either solely to some sort of wiring issue in my autonomic system or a condition that would have been preclinical but because of the opiates is not. I am relatively young not yet 30, however, I have done a lot to my body since a very very young age. All my blood work is normal or again irrelevant. Some days i can have sex 7 times a day i am not exaggerating like a champ and on others i am lucky if I can get out of bed I am so dizzy. i have seen many shrinks and psychiatrist all of whom concluded after various treatment trials that while i have an amassment of issues i need to work out none of my symptoms are treatable via psyc drugs nor is there a casual relation between my psychological state and my physical one-at least not in this regard anyway. hope you enjoy my book.

[11Bravo]

Let me know what you think of the LDn and what protocols , if any, you aware of being successful. i was thinking that since bup has naloxone in it would that be why i got some rebound effect on my endorphins? i am so worried that i have permanently down-regulated my receptors because of the many years of abuse.

[Robert_325]

When you jump off abruptly even from .5mg your w/d can last longer than with other opiates. It could last closer to a month or longer and that isn't PAWS it's plain old opiate w/d.

I know it doesn't make sense to you to take anything at this point. I'm just sharing my experience that I've had working with people doing this. I think if you took a .5mg dose it would smooth you out. I would do that for a few days. THEN skip one day, take a dose, skip two days, take a dose, skip three days, take a dose skip four days. You most likely would blow right through this no problems. Start exercising during the process and that will help the endorphine production.

HARDLY ANYONE needs naltrexone therapy if they follow the aforementioned process. But I will post a few links and I have a TON of them. Read over and let me know your feelings. I'm not trying to be a wise guy, you know pretty well. I just don't think you need it if you will follow the standard method of day-skipping that I suggested along with exercise for endorphine production. That's my best advice. Here are a few links on low dose naltrexone (LDN) in the meantime. NOTICE that I said LOW DOSE NALTREXONE. The dose is very critical and you can shut down endorphine production with naltrexone if it's not done exactly right. It's your call my friend.

This first link is an interview with a dr from 2003 so this is nothing new.
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/gazorpa/interview.html

Here is a continuation of the same dr's studies in 2009 so he has been pushing this a long time. Just understand that lots of other drs/medical researchers disagree.
http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T74565.html

This discusses all kinds of uses for naltrexone. The thing you MUST remember here is that IF YOU DO THIS it needs to be done with very low doses such as 1.5mg or a little higher. Higher doses of naltrexone will usually totally block endorphine production so it's a very touchy deal going this route.
http://www.ldninfo.org/

Hope this helps. Let me know your feelings as I am interested to see what you think about it after reading more. God bless.

[11Bravo]

i see what you mean about skipping days-i don't know what to do. i am waitiing for a call back from the doctors office about research on whether the naltrexone effects on people in PAWs because all i see now is its effect on "normal" people. i sure would like to meet one of those. Anyway, better then yesterday, sh1tier then tomorrow. my family is well aware of my dcing the sub and would ostracize me after 10 days off to go back on no matter what anyone says-i would not think well of it either but we shall see. My doc says after day 11 i can start 1mg at night , 2mg at day 2, 3 mg at 3 and so on up to 4.5 mgs at which he would maintain me and then stop after a short duration of a few weeks just to help up-regulate receptor affinity. Lets see what the experts say...or if they take my call later. Feel my pulse in all sorts of weird places and sometimes my heart beat hurts...then goes away...prob nothing my doc says i just have a whacked out autonomic nervous system.

[Robert_325]

As you probably read on the links you definitely don't want to go over 5mg MAX under any circumstances. Keep me posted.

I understand your family's feelings about you skipping days but I know what I'm talking about here I promise. It would be easier on you and it should work. Obviously you can ride it out but that is your decision. Let me know what you do. God bless.

[11Bravo]

i am starting to lose it...day 10 and I am now starting to have intense night sweats and severe chills ...which i only had in the beginning. Also-the insomnia is really starting to set in now. LDN looks really good and i spoke to the people who published the article and they said when Dr.bihari had leg surgery and was on diluadid(funny it would be that) that she continued her LDN with no side effects.This sounds kinda ridiculous because of obvious reasons but I could imagine if the dose was right how it would work. Thing is these people talk about taking this stuff like a supplement for life to have a better life even in normal people. I will keep my opinions on that to myself-but i will say i am looking for a short term protocol to alleviate a long term problem at least in part. i am worried about the immunodeficient state I am in anyway from long term opiate use because endorphins do play a major role in regulating the immune system. I am so depressed about the idea of going back on sub but now don't know what else to do-I know i am getting more tachy and symptomatic from sleep deprivation. I have not slept in 2 days no matter how much Valium I take-and i never take it more then for one day even though i get no reward center stimulation AT ALL. i took 7.5 then 5 hours later another 5mg and i was so out of my mind revved up i could not sleep for ********. any suggestions? i go to sleep and always wake at the same time every day no matter what and surprisingly slept better in early more severe withdrawal. u really think it will be a damn month of acute WD or are you just trying to scare me into making sure I dont use the lDN too soon and make myself sicker?

[11Bravo]

Just to be clear-your saying that i am and could continue to be in full opiate withdrawal from Suboxone for 30 days? I am not second guessing the fact that you have spent way more time talking to people then any doctor-thats obvious. but on a drug with a supposed 30 something T-1/2 that's pretty radical. Any suggestions other then walking around with towels stuffed under my armpits for all this damn sweat?

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by 11Bravo

Just to be clear-your saying that i am and could continue to be in full opiate withdrawal from Suboxone for 30 days? I am not second guessing the fact that you have spent way more time talking to people then any doctor-thats obvious. but on a drug with a supposed 30 something T-1/2 that's pretty radical. Any suggestions other then walking around with towels stuffed under my armpits for all this damn sweat?

You're suffering w/d from the way you stopped. That's why you're sweating like you are along with the other symptoms and yes the w/d can last a LOT longer than with other opiates.

What in the world would I have to gain by scaring you into not taking naltrexone? C'mon man be realistic! It doesn't matter to me if that is what you want to do. I can't imagine you thinking I'm so wrapped in myself that I would purposely scare someone into doing something I suggest. That would be nuts!

[11Bravo]

okay so what I was trying to communicate come off in a way far different then I intended. I was asking you if you were trying to scare me away from the LDN because you were concerned for my health situation and the side effects that the hyper-induced WD might provoke. I had hoped that we interacted enough that you would have read what I wrote the way i meant it but that was niaeve of me and i apologize.

please though-explain in as much detail your personal experience with others and how they fared on the LDN for paws. At a maximum you believe I may be in acute withdrawal for as month?

You have never given me reason to think you were self absorbed and I am sorry I gave you reason to think I thought you were.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by 11Bravo

okay so what I was trying to communicate come off in a way far different then I intended. I was asking you if you were trying to scare me away from the LDN because you were concerned for my health situation and the side effects that the hyper-induced WD might provoke. I had hoped that we interacted enough that you would have read what I wrote the way i meant it but that was niaeve of me and i apologize.

please though-explain in as much detail your personal experience with others and how they fared on the LDN for paws. At a maximum you believe I may be in acute withdrawal for as month?

You have never given me reason to think you were self absorbed and I am sorry I gave you reason to think I thought you were.

I really thought we knew each other better than that too. That's why it caught me off guard so badly. No hard feelings dude! No apology is needed with me whatsoever, I'm good to go. I see where you were coming from now.

I think that I received your post after I had just replied like 40 times in a day and I had myself totally stressed. Sometimes the questions that have MY NAME written on them come in so fast I can't answer them fast enough and I type over 70 wpm. It can be overwhelming sometimes. So I was just maxed out then. I also apologize for not taking the time to think a little better and picking up on where you were coming from.

Yes the detox can last a good month. I've seen it last longer than that. That's why I'm so dead set against stopping abruptly. I've also seen a very few people stop cold and do it with a tolerable detox. But they are in the huge minority.

My actual personal experience with low dose naltrexone is minimal. It's mostly been from research. There was a guy on the forum here about 1 1/2 years ago that did it successfully and he swore it worked great. But he was on a VERY low dose and I remember that was the key. It can be totally messed up and make you worse with too high a dose. And it doesn't take much to do that. You need to work with a dr who knows his stuff for sure. Or else you better know yours in case he gives you bad information.

The guys screen name was Better Off Dead. LOL He was a sharp guy. I can't recall how he wrote his name ... whether any spaces or all CAPS or what. Give me a little bit and I'll find his thread. It had a wierd name on it and I can't do it by hitting a search button. I'll have to go back through old threads by hand and I don't even remember what category he posted in.

I know this is important to you so bear with me and I'll find the thread and post you a link. Give me a little while but I'll get it done for you today. He had a ton of really good links and he was really my main source of REAL information. We talked a LOT and it's a really good thread. I'll post back to you later today. God bless.

[Robert_325]

Okay I dug through some old stuff from the forum and found what I needed. Had to go back to 2008 materials. The guy I was referring to only posted 14 times but there is some good information on the posts. If you go to the links here, there are additional links on the posts if you follow them all the way through. You know what I mean. I was very skeptical at first but after reading I became more open to the idea at least. I still don't recommend it for most people but it's your call.

Here is a link to the thread titled "Post Suboxone LDN" .... there is a LOT of great information on this thread. This is the best thread from BetterOffDead. There are several posts and many links here to follow up on.
http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...ldn-48470.html

Here is another link on low dose naltrexone I had saved myself.
http://www.ldninfo.org/

Hope this information helps. There is a lot of good reading here. I know it helped this guy, or was helping him, then he disappeared from the forum. It's all worth the time to read and especially follow the links through as far as they go. Let me know what you think. God bless.

[11Bravo]

I can t believe this guy did not let anyone know if it worked or not? Its like so damn anticlimactic-errrr....now I am going to have to be the one to experiment. My doc says 7-9 days post last dose and its okay but I am still sneezeing 3 times in a row, albeit less frequently. And its so WEIRD! every damn morning I wake up so cold, and then like clockwork once i am up i start getting all diaphoretic and chills for like the first half of the day and then poof it dissapates in the evening and I get sooooooooooooocold again. LOL Dude my brain is freaking opiate retarded. Day 10 sucks but not worse then yesterday and not better then tomorrow. I know I never have to feel like this again. BTW I cheeked myself into an outpatient program-prob a bunch of court mandated Phuk Nuts with no intention of putting forth any effort but that's my optimism at work for you. I finally had a solid BM! I think I could be a poster boy for Imodium.

Let me explain my obsession with the LDN: Most long term long acting opiate users i know who are clean still feel like dog ******** months later and its hard enough for me to be in pain and not use, have anxiety and not use, but to have those two plus a constant lingering withdrawal for 6 months??? I am tough but you know what? I like feeling good too much to let myself feel that bad for too long. I dont want to do this ever again...but I dont want to and cant suffer from PAWS for months and months. Eating chocolate, walking, lots of orgasms , and on my way to acupuncture, and awaiting my LDN. Of all that ******** together cant fix me i am doomed! Time to change my underarm pads!

[11Bravo]

Plan to start on day 17...I have the 1mg ,2mg,3mg,and 4.5 mg doses. We will see how 1 mg goes and take it from there. Cross your fingers! Chocolate,sex,exercise and acupuncture, meetings I hope will do the trick alongside the naltrexone. I am throwing myself into this 100% HaHa the sex and chocolate part was by and large the best part! Sleep is still very weird. I have vivid-sometimes horrible(I am getting riddled with bullets by cops laughing at me) sometimes good(I am on a gondola in Venice with my family) but always super crazy vivid! I always wake up at 4am and go to sleep at 7-8pm without much choice -my body just say to hell with you this is what i am doing. I wake up at least once a night-usually from the bad dream or having to hit the head. I sweat all day from morning-stop sweating at night-except for that point when i wake up from the bad dream i am usually drenched in cold sweat! Any and all thoughts are appreciated-oh and I feel like an antisocial nasty MF and am constantly really angry at everyone. It keeps calling-i hope that one day I dont have to hear it anymore and I just go deaf to it.

[11Bravo]

Day 19 night I have taken 1 mg of naltrexone-pray for me brother. i will post me results of my experiment daily. no idea what i am in store for good or bad!

[11Bravo]

1 mg of naltrexone beat my ass like I owed it money on day 19 n 2day is day 20. Well It was not all that bad aside from the fact that i spent the whole night with an erection that was just not going anywhere no matter what, I could not sleep for the life of me...like maybe an hour? and that was with my finally giving in and taking 12.5 mgs of Valium-I don't take it every night I usually sleep like a baby these days(last night i slept 12 hours!). I had what I could consider light acute withdrawal symptoms: very mild but noticeable cold seats, my underarms were wet which never happens at night, and my stomach was churning like i was gonna need a diaper any minute(thanks be to god i was saved from that), but here is the cool news...and its a bit gross but whatever I had the first normal BM I have had in years! I don't feel as negative and crazy as I normally do in the morning even when i get sleep-but i do feel like ass because i took those Valiums like 2 hours ago and cant sleep and am just feeling like a zombie. and I am not my super sweat drenched self-yet its still early!

[Robert_325]

BRAVO ......you better tell the dr IMMEDIATELY if you've had an erection that long. You could ruin yourself for life and I'm not kidding you. It's called a priapism, they talk about it happening when people take viagra and similar meds. I'm not kidding dude it's very serious. Good luck. God bless.

[11Bravo]

haha my dick takes a licking and keeps on ticking...I have heard of the condition you are talking about...but the erection eventually went away and I was just a bit sore. LOL! You ever see true blood where Sookies brother drinks vampire blood and has to get his cock drained? Very funny but scary episode. Nah man I am okay. Thank for your concern though.

What do you think about the LDN? I have some added news-even though I was sleep deprived and felt like ******** I spent half the day laughing with friends and the other half walking around the house singing to my cat in a frank Sinatra voice! LOL! But I was so sleep deprived that I could NOT take it last night and I slept like a baby from 11pm-7am with no Valium and I DID NOT wake up at 4am again! Today is my 3 week anniversary off suboxone and I never felt better-although i do still from time to time get a armpit waterfall that i never got on opiates. I question if the naltrexone at 1mg really did much more then make me sleepless-I cant imagine taking 4.5 mg let alone those poor souls who have to take it post recovery at 50 mg! or as an implant! On the road to recovery!

[11Bravo]

K so here is an update-I took another 1mg -this time during the day time on day 25 of subs and had a much better response. I did not feel much of anything other then a drop in my mood when i took it and a feeling of being less sweaty and being in a better mood. My doc says if I stay on it for 6 weeks it will totally correct the pathways in my brain i have damaged which otherwise could take months and maybe even years. I guess the idea that one is highly sensitive to opiates after discontinuing the naltrexone is indicative as much. I would love to take part in a study in which my endorphin levels are measured. I can say I have come a long way !

[Robert_325]

Bravo..... I can see how a clinical trial could show a marked improvement in how we feel physically following opiate detox. That would be a pretty simple thing to determine. And I'm happy for you that you seem to be feeling better.

I have to be honest however as I've thought about it many times ... even in a controlled environment of a clinical trial how could we accurately measure a marked improvement in our naturally produced endorphine levels and be sure how much of that production was due to a dose of naltrexone? I have no idea how the specific effects of the naltrexone would be determined where we could legitimately know what was for sure due to the medication.

I guess that I'm just not an educated enough scientist to know how we would be able to accurately determine our natural endorphine production increase due to a naltrexone dose. Just something to think about. God bless.

[11Bravo]

A variety of mechanisms exist to evaluate endorphin levels, i.e. PET scans and serum endorphin levels. there is contention within the scientific community as to the efficacy of these tests. However, there is no question that naltrexone does once the drug has worn off, increase receptor affinity. This is seen in ones body's hyper opiate naive state post naltrexone therapy. Yes I concur that the natural drop in tolerance occurs, but the naltrexone exaggerates this effect dramatically. My physcian is studying the effects in his practice and points out that throughout our brain are many pathways which become atrophied from disuse and damaged from overuse. Basically there are different roads in our brain that normally travel from point A to B but bc of our opiate use have gone from point A to G-Naltrexone helps redirect the pathways to where they belong thus reversing the effect of our opiate use. This is something that would naturally happen over the course of months and years , but he argues that with a matter of a month to two months of LDN things will be better.

So I am beginning it again today at 1mg and will increase every day up to 4.5 mg where i will stabilize at for 6 weeks and then dc. I have some very interesting findings to report Robert...today...you ready?...the naltrexone made me feel better! I cant explain it but it did! Kind of felt like I drank a cup of coffe and got the coffe buzz but without the jitters! I know you are a busy man but I so look forward to your posts so please share your opinion with me when you have the time! I am still having my random PVCs but am less and less frightened of them. I have been going to meetings every day, 3 a day sometimes. God bless you my friend.

[Robert_325]

Bravo .... let me know how the naltrexone works out for you. I'm very curious to know the results. Stay in touch. God bless.

[11Bravo]

The only side effect I noticed is headaches-I think its from the LDN. I have had like 4 headaches in my life and 3 of them in the last few weeks and I was taking it on and off. Well I made the jump from 1mg to 4.5 and am buckling in for a hard ass ride. Even if its bad it should not be too long of a ride.Better not I have to go to my fraternity tonight! I know relitive to others taking doses as high as 25 mgs or 50 that's a grain of sand on the beach. i meet someone else taking high dose naltrexone post opiate detox and they are doing like dog SHEIT! Note I DO NOT take this at night as it severely impairs my sleep which I am happy to report is almost perfect now. So I get two endorphin bumps per day! One in the AM when I wake up, and one in the afternoon when my am naltrexone wears off! My afternoon one may be attenuated due to the fact that endorphin production is greatest in the evening but man I tell you , sleep is so serious with me-like I get 6 hours of sleep and its like the end of the world! Even if I get only 7 hours insted of 8 I feel like absolute horse ********! LOL@myself needing sleep like a kid. I can go to sleep btween 8-11pm and wake up 8 hours later almost no matter what. Assuming I do not loose my mind from this dosage I will continue it for 6 weeks and then discontinue it. My very bad diphoreisis post opiate detox has really not subsided t all but from my conversations with other opiate users this seems to be a semi common side effect that can last for indeterminate amounts of time. So Robert if you can tell me your experience or what you have heard from others about very bad sweating under the arms,stomach, and chest post opiate detox that would be great! Its probebly the last and only physical symptom I have left thats physical. I never sweated like this on opiates or before I started taking them.

[Robert_325]

Bravo .... headaches can be rather common during this process. Take some excedrin migraine as I have found that to work great for me at least.

The sweating is a symptom that affect lots of people. Plus adding in the naltrexone and that makes it even more difficult for me to pinpoint the medical reasoning behind each symptom. Sorry to say this but with using the naltrexone, as that is not something that has a long history behind it, you'll kind of have to "wing it" to an extent and see what happens. That's the reason I asked you to keep me informed as you will probably be able to tell me a few things about all this where naltrexone is concerned before you finsish doing this.

Wish I could help more, but I just don't have a lot of medical history at my disposal to base solid and reliable replies to your questions to methods without much for me to go on. Hope that makes sense. God blesss.