[jajeannie]

I"m having a real hard time changing from MEthadone to Suboxone.... The doctors said that it's easier to get off Suboxone, but I'm having such a hard time.

My initial dose sent me into preticipated withdrawal, so i stuck out my 4mg dose from Friday until yesterday when I couldn't take it anymore. For nearly a week, the 4mg was only holding me maybe 4hrs before I was going into withdrawals again... sweating, my pupils look like dishes, agitated... you know typical, but really bad withdrawals.

Yesterday I couldn't take feeling like I hadn't dosed anymore and took 10mgs.

I don't know how much to have today.... I can't deal with hanging out. I have a child, and I'm at Uni. Too much to do.

What does one usually change to from 20mg Methadone??? Is this normal? My dose is only holding me for 4 hours or so. Has anybody else had these same reactions???

I sent a message to the lovely Robert, who said that he would help me (thank you so much!!!) but I've got too much on my plate to reduce quickly, and I just want to know if anybody went through the same thing when they got on Suboxone. Should I change to Subutex - things are different here in Australia. I can choose out of the 3 - Methadone, Subutex or Suboxone.

One other thing.... from what I understand, MMT is expensive in the states??? Here in Australia it costs me $20 a week. How much is it costing you guys??

Any advice/help/replies even would be so grateful.

Thanks guys !

[Robert_325]

I would go with the subutex. Here is how we suggest using subs. Let me know if you want my help. God bless.

www.drugs.com/forum/featured.drugs/suboxone.subutex.therapy.50887.html

[jajeannie]

because i had spent so long in withdrawal, i asked my doctor to change me back to methadone..... ( i hadn't read this post first )

i took 20mgs on friday, which made me so stoned it wasn't funny, which made me believe that throughout the previous week i had just gone through a good part of the worst withdrawals.

so now, i haven't had anything at all since friday, over 48hrs, and while i'm a little sick, it's nothing compared to what i went through last week....

should i just jump of the methadone cold turkey? i'm so desperate to get off it, i hate it so much, but i'ts clear that suboxone won't work for me?

should i take me take aways and when the withdrawals get so so so bad only take 5mgs or something like that, and just taper off myself?

[purpledog]

hey there ozzy, im a kiwi.
i got down to around 20mg of methadone before i jumped over to subs. in my opinion they are way better.
it sounds like you were not inducted properly. precipitated withdrawls suck, i bullsh!tted my clinic, and averaged out my use. but i didnt do it properly.
i have been on subs for 9 weeks now, counting from 12 initially, to being on 2.5 at the moment.
i have tried counting off methadone before, but it is really hard.
subs seem a lot easier, i have not noticed any of the drops, nor do i feel sick or hangin out at all.
thats just my little bit of info for you.
subs are a lot easier to come off, and they make you feel more normal than methadone, not so sedated, and definately like practising to be normal just before you really get there. hope this helps anyway
nice to see someone else here from down under
laters
purpledog
kiwi

p.s i lived in adelaide for a while so i know medicare pays for methadone and subs over there. here in nz methadone is free thru a clinic, but subs at present arent subsidized so im paying for them myself. still cheaper than a street habit for sure. we dont know how lucky we are, those yanks pay heaps for everything unless they have insurance. damn. yay for downunder medical ay.
good luck ozzy

[bev49]

When I was on methadone it cost me 25 a week but from what I understand that isn't the norm. Most programs charge a lot more. Suboxone treatment here costs even more. No doctors will take insurance and charge about $200-$250 or more to induct you then about $100 a month thereafter. I have insurance and the co-pay is still $40 per month. If you don't have insurance to cover the pills, its almost prohibitive. This is America the only civilized country without some sort of free health care for all.

I am sorry for your problems tranitioning. I was on a methadone program for over 30 years. Last several years on 25 mgs a day. They don't even suggest switching from meth to sub here unless you have a good reason. However, I was lucky and had no ill effects whatsoever., I waited a full 72 with no meth, (no fun) started with an 8 mg. pill and was fine... Quickly came down to my present dose of .5 once a day. I have been on it longer than what is suggested for personal reasons. If Robert doesnt get back to you about a taper plan, seek out Intelmetal, who was on meth for a long time and has now been clean for 2 months. I will tell you this, with sub, more is not necessarily better. SOmetimes, more makes people feel worse. It did with me. I anxiety ridden and couldnt sleep until I was on 4 and lower. Its strange how that works. But people often settle down and adjust after a rocky start with sub... I hope you will too.

[bev49]

jajeannie, it is not clear at all that the subs won't work for you. They very well may work. Some people start of real rocky and since you were put into precipitated withdrawal, you are one of them. Make sure you in total withdrawal, 72 hours no meth, then try again. Don't start too high, 8 is probably all. Then ask intel or one of the people who've gotten off successfully for a good taper plan. It c an really work. How long were you on meth? I definitely wouldnt advise just walking away from it. No way. I would try the subs again minus the precipitated withdrawl. Intel? HELP

[bev49]

jEANE, talk to my friend kiwi also... She isn't done with the detox either but has managed to get herself more than half way with no bad effects in 8 or 9 weeks. I know she can help you get through the rough start.

[intelmetal]

jajeannie, You need to be in moderate to severe withdrawal to make the switch successfully. Usually 72 hours without any methadone or any other opiate will do it. I suggest you locate the COWS worksheet and wait until you score a 26 to 29 on it. I was lucky and scored a 29 in 52 hours ( high metabolism ). Once you score a 26+ and are feeling pretty bad, you will be ready to induct. How long were you at the 20mg methadone dose ? You can either follow the the link posted by Robert and follow instructions there, or you can do as I did and start with 8mgs on day 1 single dose, 8mgs on day 2 split into 2 - 4mg doses, do the same thing on day 3 and day 4. Let us know how you feel each and every day. After 4 days at 8mgs, you should be able to reduce your dose by 25% to 6mg per day in 2 equal 3mg doses. Do not jump all over the place with your dosing. Stay at each dose until your stable. I switched over from 20mgs methadone to suboxone also. I did not have any major problems making the switch. I found that the reductions from 8mgs through 4.5mgs to be a breeze, so don't hang out on the higher doses or you will pay for it later. The rule of thumb is to reduce by 25% of your total daily dose, every 4 days ( if you are stable ). When you taper down to about 2mgs, you must communicate with one of us in case any adjustments are needed.
I HIGHLY suggest that you read my thread " Intelmetal's own thread ", it is in the "need to talk" forum.
Please post any question you may have, as our situations were very similar. Hope to hear from you and Good Luck !
Steve

[jajeannie]

hey guys!
thanks all for your replies!!

i had my last dose of methadone on friday, as i said i asked the doctor to put me back on it. but because i got so stoned, i decided not to take it anymore. i know it's strange and weird and probably not that right decision.

i've been without any opiates now for 72hours, but i'm not sick. sure i have a little bit of cramping in my legs, and sweaty palms but that's it. nothing compared to what the preticipated withdrawal felt like!!!

so i'm just going cold turkey. the lady at the hospital said because i was in preticipated withdrawal i'd seen the worst of it. i dealt with it then, i can do it again.

i'm just going to go to the doc today, get some vals or xanax, clonodine, and some brufen and battle it out for the next week or so.

wish me luck!!!

oh, and if things do get so bad, there's not a chance that i will use street drugs, i have 5 takeaways tucked away in my drawer, 120mgs so i'll just take 5 or so mls if it gets too bad to handle. YAY for being off methadone!

[jajeannie]

Originally Posted by purpledog

we dont know how lucky we are, those yanks pay heaps for everything unless they have insurance. damn. yay for downunder medical ay.
good luck ozzy

that's for sure!!!!

[purpledog]

hi ozzy, good luck on the cold turkey, and be careful with your stashed methadone ay. even jumping off 5mg of 'done can give you wd.

see how you go. there is a thing called thomas recipe. gives you all the bits n pieces to make cold turkey a bit more manageable. there should be a link, if you search thomas recipe. im not sure how to post if for you.

all i can say, how long you been on methadone.
if you are sure you are over the worst, im glad for you. but beleive me when i went to adelaide, from here, in withdrawls, i thought at 5 days i was over the worst, but that wasnt to be. omg it lasts a long time.

anyway, for me subs are doing the trick, i have gone from 12mg to 2.5mg in 9 weeks, and i havent felt sick at all. so im pretty stoked.
which part of aussie you in pal

good luck anyway
purpledog
kiwi

[jajeannie]

Originally Posted by intelmetal

jajeannie, I suggest you locate the COWS worksheet and wait until you score a 26 to 29 on it.

I scored a 4 after 72 hours ~ wtf. i don't have slow metabolism, out of interest sake i'm 27, 5'5" 120lbs (i changed to the other for you guys lol - i'm not sure if i said i'm 166cms and 56kgs you would have not had to use one of the metric calculators the way i always do - lol)

so what's goin on?

[jajeannie]

Originally Posted by purpledog

hi ozzy, good luck on the cold turkey, and be careful with your stashed methadone ay. even jumping off 5mg of 'done can give you wd.

see how you go. there is a thing called thomas recipe. gives you all the bits n pieces to make cold turkey a bit more manageable. there should be a link, if you search thomas recipe. im not sure how to post if for you.

all i can say, how long you been on methadone.
if you are sure you are over the worst, im glad for you. but beleive me when i went to adelaide, from here, in withdrawls, i thought at 5 days i was over the worst, but that wasnt to be. omg it lasts a long time.

anyway, for me subs are doing the trick, i have gone from 12mg to 2.5mg in 9 weeks, and i havent felt sick at all. so im pretty stoked.
which part of aussie you in pal

good luck anyway
purpledog
kiwi

I'm in Brisbane - this time I've only been on the program 4 months. never higher than 35mgs.... did you hear about how our lovely prime minister gave out all that money to everyone? the 'stimulus package' yeah well putting $4000 in an ex-addicts bank account in one week, suffice to say, went up my arm. i'd been clean for 5 years...

previously i'd tapered off 120mgs done - which at that time was the most they'd give you in australia. these folks saying they're on 300mgs blows me away. imagine that - i'd be so stoned, lol.

but i transferred from done to subs back in 2002, when they first brought it into australia. 35mgs done, to 8mgs subutex. had no problems. tapered down to .25mg and jumped off. and that was when i literally went stark raving ********ing mad. swore i wouldn't do it again. stayed clean. then bloody kev gave me all that money bet he didn't have that in mind when he put it into people's bank accounts hahah!

where in nz are you?

[purpledog]

taranaki. yeh got mates in brissy. and mullumbimby. that'll get the americans laughing that name. and nimbin. (thats somewhere only you and i would know on this site ay). hah.
yeh i was in adelaide (go port) in 01 and the doc was gonna give me either methadone or subs, after one appointment, omg, my first time on the done program i had to wait 8 months. with a raging habit.
i cried, and as i had done 5 days already i thought i was over the worst. hell no i wasnt.

and i sure know what you mean about hearing the amounts people end up on in the states, omg its ridiculous. poor people. i was a mess on 150mg let alone 300 +....crazy doctors.
yeh one guy a good pal, who helped me bigtime on here was intelmetal, he was on 360 and i couldnt beleive it. wow, most i was on was 110. officially..!!
but you know how it goes, i couldnt leave a bottle alone, had to have it all. i got lots of friends on round 120 - 150 mark. they are watching me as a guinea pig coz subs are new over here, were a bit behind you guys, heh heh. not in much tho.!! but subs, yep. and they are not subsidised so im paying about $1.50 for a mg. but i have gone from 12mg 9 weeks ago, and now im on 2.5mg a day. so thats stuff all to pay to get rid of a nasty habit.

shyte i never heard about that stimulus package. wot a drag. wot an idiot. yeh ive still got compulsory retirement savings over there. i worked for bout 4 years, so i got a few grand that i cant get. yet. they brought it in here kiwisaver, the government gave us a grand to start, so we are gonna be able to transfer it over to that. we used to be able to take it out when we came home, but its changed now.
on ya ozzy
take it easy
purpledog
kiwi

[bev49]

Oh man, i can listen to this conversation all day... a kiwi and an aussie... I need 2 dictionaries now... kiwi to engish and aussie to english LOL... Kiwi, my friend, you are great and do ing great on 2.5. I'm so proud of you... You arent so slow and steady.. more like medium quick and steady. You go girl. I'm a lover not a fighter too. I grew up in the 1960's where it was all about peace love and rock & roll... I really don't like confrontation and would have been happy to be allowed to talk to the friends I connected to without being challeleged left and right. However it was not to be. It seems more mellow now, thankfully... Jeanne, I wish you all the luck there is.... You've done it before and can do it again. Thank goodness you werent on methadone too long. Like Kiwi says, just google Thomas Recipe (its all over this site too).... It will help. Also ask Steve (Intel) to repost some of his good ideas for getting over the humps of withdrawal. They were some good ideas. Jeannie, I live in NY by the way. Coudnt be further away from down under but me and kiwi here forged a nice little friendship. Ive seen the beauty of her part of the world. Way different from NY for sure. Anyway, you can do it.... Just be careful with that stashed stuff... If you must keep it, its only for emergencies.... Go for it and Ill be thinking of you.

[jajeannie]

you guys rock!

i'll try and post everyday, i suppose it's a good outlet. i just got back from the doctor, got scripts for brufen, chlonodine and valium. should do me the week.

fingers crossed!

and you're right bev - kiwi you're doing awesome! you too bev. everyone round here is so nice.

oh, and kiwi, nimbin and mullimbimby still make me laugh when i have to go through them!!!!

oh, and i'm googling that thomas recipe now!!!

hey - do you guys go to NA meetings?

[purpledog]

yeh and ive heard a melbourne mix is the worst of all.
and as far as i know im the only one here from downunder.
yep few northern hemispherians, and heaps of americans, couple of poms, is wot i can figure. but im pretty sure im the only kiwi.
theres one at every party.
ive had a hard night. read my thread.
im pleased you are doing well ozzy, and no i dont go to NA but i think maybe i should go to one and see how it is. i need something for sure.
catch ya tomorrow
ozzy
jajeannie

[bev49]

hiya jeanie... they give you $4,000 as part of your stimulus package?? Here $400 and thats for a couple. I'd love to live down there but dont know if i could live in a place called
Mullimbimby without laughing my butt off every day.
Thanks for nice things you've said. The ban ended up less than 2 days, less than they planned it for, and I'm sure glad its over, just so I can meet nice aussies like you .... Tbe Thomas Recipe will work and NA will work even more. You need support and while online support is lovely and great, there is nothing like face to face help. Go for it and keep posting.
Just keep moving forward. Yay for my kiwi pal in NZ too ! Doing great.

[purpledog]

hey j is crystal meth still a massive problem over there. oh i got hooked up in it bigtime, using everyday. i stopped the opiates and changed. then i had a couple of years clean. well maybe one. then back on methadone. streetbought. expensive way to do it. but the crystal gets you by the nuts and twists ay pal. woo man did i go a bit psycotic on the stuff. for sure. and it thought i was ok. over here at the moment they are calling it a p epidemic, coz they smoke it in meth pipes. it makes people ugly man. oh and there were lots of party pills and mdma and stuff around.
did you go to that eclipse in december 01.? at ceduna and lyndhurst. i was at lyndhurst. most amazing thing ive seen to date that eclipse. theres another one in 2012, jabiru peninsula. pretty much guaranteed clear skies in the desert ay. lyndhurst was amazing, a 4 day trance party. different alright.
hey bev. australia is very different to nz, dont confuse nz with ozzy its bloody hot in ozzy. too hot for this kiwi, even me poor dog purple started to get epileptic fits in the bloody heat. you have to have shutters on your windows to keep the SUN out. it was completely foreign to me. shoulda bin paid heat money just to get to work. im me v8 with no aircon. lol
j have you been to nz. just curious. driven from adelaide to melbourne in a v8falcon panel van. me and my blue heeler, purple. shes a kiwi.
confused,
choice thats the plan
wow i might crash out its been a big day
cheers for all your chat tonight
i needed it
purpledog

no the eclipse was in december 02, 4th i think. whoops

[jajeannie]

I once had a kiwi boyfriend who always used to say that back in NZ everyone was smokin P/. Being the "cool, I know everything there is about drugs" I never questioned what on earth he'd been smokin. Probz crack. I didn't know. A while later it dawned on me.

Chrystal Meth, we call it Ice, it's becoming an epidemic. But not like other countries. But then again, I've always been an opiate/downer girl so I don't really know how easy it is to get..... and never touched that sh!t. Well I have, you know, but never regularly.

So today is day 4. I got 5 hours sleep, lying in bed my legs were aching. I wish I had the $15 to get those 3 scripts (the brufen, clonodine and more vals) but I won't until tomorrow, so I'll just have to stick it out.

It's going to be a busy day today, I gotta get my daughter to school, see the doctor, I have a uni lecture/tutorial and I'm going to attempt to exercize... stretching just feels so good for those aches you know? I figure if I keep myself busy I will make it. Just don't think about it. I'm done with the psychological part, now it's just the physical part.... The big one, I know.

So wish me luck with my day.

Keep smilin people.

Oh yeah, do people generally lose or gain weight in detox????? I don't want to put on any weight, but I'm constantly craving food. Oh dear

[intelmetal]

jajeannie, I lost a whole lot of weight during detox, most do. I am actually trying to put weight back on. It is hard for me to gain any body fat at all. I exercise every day and try to take in good nutrition as well. It is a delicate balance for me.
You are doing great ! Keep it up.
Steve

[jajeannie]

oh my. oh my. oh my.

i did everything that i said i would do today - got anna to school, went to uni, lecture/tutorial, exercized.

but i'm just so damn tired. all i've had today is 4 x 5mg vals and i feel like i could sleep... pity i can't, i have ot get dinner for the little one, and wait until 7.30 to get her into bed - it's only 5.45 at the moment.

what do people do for the pains in their legs. that's what's really getting me. i can do the sweats, i can do the aluminium taste in my mouth, the vals are (kind of) calming the irritability. but my legs. omg. my f**king legs....

i'm going to sit in a nice hot bath now.

it's depressing that i have to get up and do it all tomorrow, that or it's a blessing in disguise that i'm not sitting at home thinking about it all day.

i'm going to get all of the vitamins for the thomas recipe tomorrow.

i think i've already lost some weight. i don't know how, i can't stop damn eating all day. my jeans are hanging off me, and i'm already small. i don't want to be a fricken rake.

ohh. today's the first day that i've considered having a taste of the methadone, just to calm things, but i can't. i won't. i wouldn't ever last this long again. it would be such a waste of time if i did.

[jajeannie]

I don't know if I feel worse than I did yesterday... I do know that i'm taking a f!ckload of valium though, I took about 20 yesterday, managed to get a script for mogodon as well. f!ck I'm sick of not sleeping.

I hope day 7-10 are the worst. That's getting me through this. Just a couple more days, just a couple more days.

At least I can get my scripts today. And I'm getting a massage today.

But my legs. Oh dear, my legs. I've also noticed that my nose is constantly running for the first time today.... I haven't had diarrohea or vomiting either - is this normal. (watch now - i'll get on the bus and probably sh!t myself lol)

Oh, I hope I can make it through today, I'm so exhausted.

[bev49]

You CAN do it oz, you definitely can. You're more than half way there. If you take the meth, just think, there will come a day where you gotta start all over again, don't waste this time you've spent. The legs and not sleeping are always the worst. Hot baths work wonders. I remember kicking heroin. When I was in a bath, I was totally not kicking. When I got out, of course the w/d came back, but of those baths are beautiful. Staying busy is actually a blessing. You feel like ******** but have no time to dwell. Ozzy, a few more days... less days than have gone by already. You can do it.... Say a prayer for our kiwi friend. Life ain't fair sometimes.

[jajeannie]

When I was a little girl, and probably still now, all i ever wanted to do was live in NY..... and visit brooklyn, and queens and the bronx. jersey meh. one day i'll get there, and give you a big ol' hug.

i'll be thinkin of kiwi today, that's for sure. i don't understand why we're the one's constantly getting bent over, but you know, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger right?

oh well. nearly time to get on the bus. anna's ready for school. god bless the kid for being able to make her own breakfast. i'm feeling so depressed for being a bad parent at the moment, but, i'm doin the best i can. i'm pretty sure tho, that although she really thinks it's ok because i'm letting her do what the hell she wants to do only for a couple days tho, lol.

i don't know what time it is there, night time i imagine. but it's 6.51am here, best start the day.

and you're right. busy keeps thoughts out of your mind.

[bev49]

hi there, ozzy, i feel the same about where you live. I've always wanted to visit. The people that I've met from there are so laid back, always have a sense of humor about things, (you included) and are just nice. Nicers than New Yorkers, for sure. We're in too much of a rush. I was raised in the Bronx, lived in Manhattan, now in Queens, also lived in NJ (one state south). I'll wait for that hug when you get here.

I'm thinking of poor kiwi too.... Life sucks then you die they say... sometimes it seems too true...

But... in the meanwhile, we gotta live. I'm sure you are a perfectly good mother, just human and she will appreciate you all the more for that. None of us are perfect.. And as you said, she has an advantage for a few more days, lucky girl.

Keep up the good work, oz...

Bev from NY (purple kiwi calls me hawk, new yawk hawk, new yawk.. she has all different names for me)

[purpledog]

struth ozzy im sorry to leave you for a few days. i know all about the legs mate. oh god those were always the worst for me.
watch out with all of those pills aye, dont av too many.
you are going well tho, and you dont need any 'done to cover it, how many days it been now pal.
we are all a lot better today. wow i was in shock for a day or two there. heavy sh!t alright.
i got some people in carrara. how far you from there. just curious, never know i might just c u one day ozzy. lot closer than the hawk from new yawk anyway,
i even tried those voltaren kinda sports rub on my legs, its like a local anaesthetic, well not quite. its for sports injuries but it maybe helped a bit. and i took some of those panediene forte. but they have codeine in them so they are a worry. they got me thru the major methadone hangs tho. mind you i reckon they made me crook tho, all that paracetamol.
take it easy j,
dont mix too much bakky with ya weed. heh heh. blimmin spleeeef. har har.
oh only us guys will know what a spleeeef it. mind you i guess you would say we say spluuuuuf.

hope you all good ozzy keep on the right path pal
kiwi
purpledog

[purpledog]

where are ya j. how ya doin, i guess you gone walkabout for a few day.
hope you are still good, keep posting,
catch ya later
kiwi

[jajeannie]

Post deleted -stop swearing in your posts please
Mod

[jajeannie]

Post deleted -stop swearing in your posts please