[skierneil]

Hi..

I am currently taking one and a half pills a day of 7.5 mgs tablets of Vicodin.
This doesn't seem like a large dose, but when I try and stop I feel sad and can't really be myself. I exercise regularly and eat well.
What's the best way to stop in a home environment. I know my dose is not that high, but I know it's still not going to be fun. I'm thinking I should drop a half a pill for three days and be off in 9 days. Thoughts?
Help!

Neil

Neil Frank

[EnoughPercs]

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Originally Posted by skierneil

Hi..

I am currently taking one and a half pills a day of 7.5 mgs tablets of Vicodin.
This doesn't seem like a large dose, but when I try and stop I feel sad and can't really be myself. I exercise regularly and eat well.
What's the best way to stop in a home environment. I know my dose is not that high, but I know it's still not going to be fun. I'm thinking I should drop a half a pill for three days and be off in 9 days. Thoughts?
Help!

Neil

Neil Frank

Drop 'em all cold turkey & take it like a man!

Seriously, I'm one to talk.

8-10 10/325 percs a day + 40 mg adderal all stopped & just finished my 3rd clean day.

I won't lie, it AINT EASY!!!

It's very painful mentally. You feel like you have no ambition, energy, etc.
Each day apparently gets easier. I'm waiting to see that still as that's my only motivation to keep going clean.

1 1/2 vics is nothing. Drop it now before it gets worse!

[pdxRx]

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Originally Posted by skierneil

Hi..

I am currently taking one and a half pills a day of 7.5 mgs tablets of Vicodin.
This doesn't seem like a large dose, but when I try and stop I feel sad and can't really be myself. I exercise regularly and eat well.
What's the best way to stop in a home environment. I know my dose is not that high, but I know it's still not going to be fun. I'm thinking I should drop a half a pill for three days and be off in 9 days. Thoughts?
Help!

Neil

Neil Frank

I think you should just plan for you last dose to be right before your weekend. Despite your low dosage don't let anyone tell you that it won't be hard. It may or may not be, everyone is different. However I think that if you gave yourself a couple of days to lay around and feel ********************py, you will be feeling better in no time. Good luck to you

pdxRx

[rorvan76]

like some have said it wont be easy..trust me i know..2 years ago i went through the same thing except i was taking around 15 vics a day..sometimes more,sometimes less..and i w/d twice from it..it was a living nightmare,but i made it through..u will too..not trying to make it seem like just because u do only a small amount that your situation is less scary to w/d,but if i think it will probably be much easier physically..mentally will be the toughest part to kick no matter how much anyone takes..your mind tricks u into thinking u need them to feel normal,that u need them to function.. considering the amount u are on,cold turkey would probably be best..thats only my opinion though..best of luck to u

[lyds]

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Originally Posted by skierneil

Hi..

I am currently taking one and a half pills a day of 7.5 mgs tablets of Vicodin.
This doesn't seem like a large dose, but when I try and stop I feel sad and can't really be myself. I exercise regularly and eat well.
What's the best way to stop in a home environment. I know my dose is not that high, but I know it's still not going to be fun. I'm thinking I should drop a half a pill for three days and be off in 9 days. Thoughts?
Help!

Neil

Neil Frank

Hey, Neil and welcome.

Your dosage is quite low and that can work out to be a very big blessing. I know your body will have an adjustment period and you will go through withdrawls. However, as pdxRx metioned, it may be hard and it may not be. Everyone is different. How long have you been taking Vicoden?

I can tell you that exercise helps so, so much. You won't feel like doing it, for sure. I had a friend here at the board kick my bum into gear. I was so glad she did it because I can honestly say it helped me make it through.

Tapering is a great idea if you have enough self control. I wish the best to you. Come back and let us know how it's going.

[Rastopop]

[This is part one - the board won't let me post the entire thing because it's too long. Part two should appear just below, in its own post.]

Don't quit cold turkey. I know that's what others are recommending, but it's nuts. Seriously. Don't do it. Even on the low dose you're on.

When I decided to quit, I was up to 160mg/day of morphine + 80mg/day of oxy.

I just went to my doctor and told him what was going on. Don't be afraid to do that. Unless you have a real nightmare of a doctor, he/she ought to *help* you. That's what they do for a living.

Mine prescribed small doses of oxy to bring me down a bit to at least get a handle on things. Over a few weeks, I went from that rather high dose down to about 10mg/day of oxy. I didn't feel *good*, but it was certainly better than just quitting outright.

After that, I managed to get down to 5mg/day. But, despite the fact that I was able to taper that far, I couldn't quit that last 5. Just couldn't. I don't know if it was because I had been on such a high dose before or what, but even though I had grown comfortable with that small amount, I still couldn't ditch it.

My doctor finally cut me off, deciding *for* me (and rightly) that it was time to stop. I crashed. I didn't realize how much I needed that little bit. It was just enough to keep withdrawals at bay (well, not really - I was feeling like trash the whole time, but, like I said, it could have been worse).

When I was in my third day of withdrawals - universally known, along with the fourth day in some cases, to be the first day things really go bad - I went to a local bookstore and bought a couple clinical references on opioid addiction and treatment (I lived near one of the largest bookstores in the nation at the time).

Sat down, sweating. nauseous, freaked out, anxious, paranoid, and read a few hundred pages. I was so scared of anything that was more than a foot away from me that it was easy to focus on the book

Anyway, found a few interesting things. One of the most interesting was a section on how opioids affect calcium ion channels (neurons fire (called an "action potential" in the jargon) once certain conditions have been met - it involves a bunch of swapping of calcium, sodium, and potassium ions, blah blah blah). I'm guessing it was mostly just a lot of guessing (after doing all these drugs, I've realized that nobody knows what they're talking about), but it made some sense.

Docs often prescribe clonidine (a beta blocker) to help with withdrawals. That med blocks the action of a type of adrenaline at particular sites - the smooth (or automatic) muscle, like the lungs, heart, etc. - so that you don't curl up into a painful little ball of upsetness.

This is related to the calcium ion stuff. Gimme a minute here

I have *no* idea if I'm right or not, but my experience tells me I'm not totally off here.

I happened to have a bunch of Verapamil lying around. It was given to me to prevent migraines, but I hated it so much that I stopped using it after just a couple weeks, leaving behind a few big bottles.

I was thinking that, if opioids affect the rate at which calcium ions pass through their fancy little gate, it was possible that quitting opioids creates pandemonium in that area. The brain seems to strive for homeostasis - it adapts to the abuse, and it adapts to the absence of abuse - there's quite a bit that goes on in our thinkmeat to complicate matters.

So, I popped a Verapamil (I think it it was an 80mg sustained release, but I don't remember), and the *physical* symptoms of withdrawal all but disappeared within a couple hours. And I mean *everything*. The shakes, the sweats, the cramps - all of it was gone.

Again, I have no idea what I'm talking about here - I didn't even graduate from high school, so listening to me is foolish - but it worked for me. It isn't too surprising, either, as calcium channel blockers are often given for the same reasons beta blockers are. The difference is that, provided you can get your hands on a centrally acting calcium channel blocker (one that works in the brain) like Verapamil or Cardene, it might stop the problem before it even begins. Beta blockers work to stop what's already been started in your head. They get in the way of all the nifty chemicals that get realeased, but they don't *stop* the release. I'm probably wrong here, so feel free to jump all over this if you'd like (I'm giving these disclaimers so that you don't do anything stupid), but I got the feeling that Verapamil stopped the problem, rather than just blocking a symptom.

When I calmed down a bit, I did some searching. Found *one* study, done somewhere very east of here, where opioid-addicted rats were given Verapamil to treat withdrawal symptoms. The results were promising, but people aren't rats, and there doesn't seem to be much interest in coming up with cheap and effective ways of getting people off opioids (the companies that make this stuff make a lot of money on addicts, you know?). There's no reason a company would pay the money to get a calcium channel blocker approved for opioid withdrawal when they can just manufacture methadone and keep you hooked for life.

So... the story gets a little weird here.

I managed to make it through two weeks with no pain. I was able to sleep again (not easily, but I could still *do* it all the same). Was able to function halfway decently.

The problem came when I made it past the physical symptoms. That's when I realized that PAWS (you've probably read about it here - Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome) was a much bigger deal than the initial pain.

You have options at that point. You're on such a low dose of this stuff that you can take your pick.

Depending on how long you're hooked on opioids, it's possible that your body will stop releasing endorphins (the natural opioids produced by your body), and that can lead to some complications. You can get your body going again with exercise, sex, and other physically intensive activites, or activities for which your body will reward you (like attempted procreation for the fun of it).

I think you'd be fine.

[End of part one.]

[Rastopop]

[Start of part two to the above post.]

Another issue is that opioid addiction affects the way opioids are used by the body. Simply put, they become less effective, meaning that you need more and more and more to feel good. Eventually, you'll need to be snorting/slamming/swallowing/smoking a *lot* to feel all right, to say nothing of euphoria which will take its leave long before you've hit the point at which you decide to quit. This means that, even if your body *is* still producing endorphins, it's going to take a while before they're effective.

Your brain needs to adjust. It can take weeks to months. In some cases, it's years, but it's very unlikely that you're at that stage. I'm guessing you'd be fine in a few weeks.

To make it through this part, you should consider going to your doctor, or shrink if you have one, and ask to be put on Wellbutrin. It's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and there's a good chance that it could help you get through the depression.

Plus, it sounds like you're already medicating for depression with opioids. You need to stop that as soon as possible, as it's a self-perpetuating cycle. It will only get worse - I promise you that. It's one of the few things I can state with any certainty. Run away as fast as you can, but without hurting yourself.

Start off by tapering. Stop taking one and a half pills everyday. Move down to just one. After a few days of that, split that one pill into two pieces. Take the first in the morning, and the other an hour before going to bed (so you can sleep). Once you've adjusted to that (that is, once you don't feel totally uncomfortable), try going down to just half a pill a day. Take an extra half if you really need to, but DON'T do it if you just *want* to. You'll know when you're lying to yourself. Every addict does. It's just a question of whether you'll listen to that voice or not.

Once you're down to half a pill, stay there for a couple weeks. Don't rush this. There's no reason you should have to feel terrible while quitting. You'll feel bad, sure, but you don't have to be on the floor in a cold sweat with vomit all over your shirt (my record barfing session was about four hours - not barfing the whole time, but just every few minutes - did it in my bathtub - it was awesome).

After you've gotten used to that half a pill, just quit. Leave it alone. You're so bloody lucky to only be this far into it. However, even though you'll hear peope say things like this - that you're on such a small amount - it's still not something to take lightly. Any psychoactive amount is enough to ruin your life. Not trying to scare you here, either - just being honest. You only have to read a few posts here to figure out just how bad it can get. You really don't want to be like any of the rest of us

Now, if you *do* feel physically bad after quitting - say, you've got cramps, or the sweats, or whatever - try seeing your doctor for a calcium channel blocker. Ask for Verapamil. I don't know if you'll be able to get it or not, but be honest with your doctor. Bring in a printout of this post. Point to it and say, "Hey - it worked for *this* idiot."

I couldn't do that. I had gone way too far and screwed myself up in the process. Quitting like that wasn't an option for me, so consider yourself among the fortunate (insofar as an addict can be fortunate). You have a chance to make things right in your life without burning out in a big way.

I eventually went on buprenorphine. It's kind of disgusting, but I had to get myself *re*addicted to the opioids before they'd put me on it. The reason is that, at least according to Them, bupe can't be given unless the person is showing signs of withdrawal.

I started out on a relatively low dose, probably due to the fact that I had already tapered. Was on 16mg/day - it was just enough to keep me Normal. Over several months, I tapered down to 1mg/day, and I feel fine. My shrink is keeping me on it because it blocks the action of other opioids (it binds to the mu opioid receptor about fifty times more strongly than morphine), and it's also a kappa opioid receptor antagonist. That means that it binds to the receptor (in the books, they might call it an "exogenous ligand"), but blocks the action.

That's an interesting thing, as the kappa receptor is generally blamed for things like dysphoria and anxiety. Like many others, I was using because anti-depressants, for the most part, didn't work to treat my depression. The only thing I had ever found that worked were the opioids. Unfortunately, I didn't have the self control to simply self-medicate. I got used to nodding, and learned to love it. That was my bad.

What's *really* interesting about this is some research that's been done at Harvard on using bupe as an anti-depressant. They gave it to a group of people who didn't respond to any of the traditional methods of beating depression (everything from SSRIs to shock therapy). Some people dropped out because they couldn't tolerate the side-effects (opioids aren't for everybody ), but it worked extremely well in others.

The problem is that people around here are uber paranoid about opioids, and patients probably would be, too. There's a stigma attached to opioids that makes them unattractive to the general populous. It's unfortunate, as the things bloody well work, and bupe is easily the best. I don't know about you, but I *like* leading a normal life, and not feeling tied to nodding, euphoria, puking, and passing out. I have a demanding job, and I'm finally able to do it (when I interviewed, I was flying on a cocktail of opioids I had snorted a couple hours prior).

It was hard quitting, but I couldn't be happier that I did. And the bupe *does* seem to work well as an anti-depressant, as well as an anxiolytic. So much so that I was able to quit the benzos (I had been taking them - a lot, I might add - along with my opioids - *REALLY STUPID IDEA*). I'm currently tapering off of my SSRI (Zoloft), and I've been feeling fine.

My shrink was right. I don't need all the pills, powder, and worse.

Oh, and the theory that some have come up with to explain bupe's effectiveness as an anti-depressant is that some people are born with a wider distribution of kappa opioid receptors than others. It's why we're so attracted to the opioids - in a way most people can't understand. In a way, it's almost like being able to see a color no one else can. It's just heaven when one of those little chemicals binds to the mu opioid receptor, and you get a nice Get Out of Hell ticket when they bind to the kappa.

Bupe fixes that. At least it did for me. No depression. No anxiety. No addiction.

While bupe is certainly addictive, it's *very* different from all the other - *full* agonist - opioids I've shoved in my body. At 1mg/day, I'm no longer considered to be an addict. I could actually walk away from this - and have - but I've found that life is smoother and more pleasant while on it. Even though it's such a small amount, it makes a big difference. I certainly don't feel high, I don't have any of the nasty side-effects of full agonist opioids (constipation, puking, etc.).

Rather, I feel *good*. Better than I've ever felt.

Bupe might not be for you, but you should consider it if you really are depressed and have found Vicodin to be a good med with which to treat it. Bupe is a far better alternative.

Talk to your doctor. Get a list of bupe dealers (I mean - doctors) near you.

And don't listen to the people who complain about the naloxone in Suboxone. They'll tell you that they can feel it (naloxone blocks the action of opioids), but it's garbage. There's such a small amount, and it doesn't even enter your bloodstream. It's there as a deterrent to the people who'd shoot it, but even some of them have found the naloxone to be useless. Only the bupe gets in.

I've taken both Subutex (pure bupe) and Suboxone (bupe + naloxone), and there's *NO* difference if you use them correctly.

OK. I'd better stop typing now. Starting to write a book here...

[escobar]

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Originally Posted by skierneil

Hi..

I am currently taking one and a half pills a day of 7.5 mgs tablets of Vicodin.
This doesn't seem like a large dose, but when I try and stop I feel sad and can't really be myself. I exercise regularly and eat well.
What's the best way to stop in a home environment. I know my dose is not that high, but I know it's still not going to be fun. I'm thinking I should drop a half a pill for three days and be off in 9 days. Thoughts?
Help!

Neil

Neil Frank

Neil,

Go talk to your doctor about tapering off them. That's the best way to do it. I have real bad lower back (awaiting 2nd surgery) and have been on them for four months. I got tired of taking them and cold turkeyed it over one weekend. I felt that I was getting dependant on them and didn't want to become addicted. It was hell and stupid. I contacted my doctor on day three of the withdrawls and he basically told me that they are there to help and I should have contacted him before I just up and quit. Taper off them with your doctor's help and your in good shape. Remember........the doctors are there to help!

[LifeLearner]

I've been on Oxycodone, Vicodin for almost 3 years. Currently I'm taking about 7-9 Norco 10/325 a day. I want to get sober so bad. I called a doc. about the Buprenorphine yesterday and they informed me it would cost $700 out of pocket the first month!! What the ****? I have insurance but she says I would have to pay the Doc. cash and then I would submit the claim myself to my insurance. Any advice? You seem to know alot in this area. Also I haven't been getting my pills from haveing a sript. and I don't have a regular doc. but I want to tell one my problem so they can help me, what should I do? I live in Portland Oregon, thank you.

Another issue is that opioid addiction affects the way opioids are used by the body. Simply put, they become less effective, meaning that you need more and more and more to feel good. Eventually, you'll need to be snorting/slamming/swallowing/smoking a *lot* to feel all right, to say nothing of euphoria which will take its leave long before you've hit the point at which you decide to quit. This means that, even if your body *is* still producing endorphins, it's going to take a while before they're effective.

Your brain needs to adjust. It can take weeks to months. In some cases, it's years, but it's very unlikely that you're at that stage. I'm guessing you'd be fine in a few weeks.

To make it through this part, you should consider going to your doctor, or shrink if you have one, and ask to be put on Wellbutrin. It's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and there's a good chance that it could help you get through the depression.

Plus, it sounds like you're already medicating for depression with opioids. You need to stop that as soon as possible, as it's a self-perpetuating cycle. It will only get worse - I promise you that. It's one of the few things I can state with any certainty. Run away as fast as you can, but without hurting yourself.

Start off by tapering. Stop taking one and a half pills everyday. Move down to just one. After a few days of that, split that one pill into two pieces. Take the first in the morning, and the other an hour before going to bed (so you can sleep). Once you've adjusted to that (that is, once you don't feel totally uncomfortable), try going down to just half a pill a day. Take an extra half if you really need to, but DON'T do it if you just *want* to. You'll know when you're lying to yourself. Every addict does. It's just a question of whether you'll listen to that voice or not.

Once you're down to half a pill, stay there for a couple weeks. Don't rush this. There's no reason you should have to feel terrible while quitting. You'll feel bad, sure, but you don't have to be on the floor in a cold sweat with vomit all over your shirt (my record barfing session was about four hours - not barfing the whole time, but just every few minutes - did it in my bathtub - it was awesome).

After you've gotten used to that half a pill, just quit. Leave it alone. You're so bloody lucky to only be this far into it. However, even though you'll hear peope say things like this - that you're on such a small amount - it's still not something to take lightly. Any psychoactive amount is enough to ruin your life. Not trying to scare you here, either - just being honest. You only have to read a few posts here to figure out just how bad it can get. You really don't want to be like any of the rest of us

Now, if you *do* feel physically bad after quitting - say, you've got cramps, or the sweats, or whatever - try seeing your doctor for a calcium channel blocker. Ask for Verapamil. I don't know if you'll be able to get it or not, but be honest with your doctor. Bring in a printout of this post. Point to it and say, "Hey - it worked for *this* idiot."

I couldn't do that. I had gone way too far and screwed myself up in the process. Quitting like that wasn't an option for me, so consider yourself among the fortunate (insofar as an addict can be fortunate). You have a chance to make things right in your life without burning out in a big way.

I eventually went on buprenorphine. It's kind of disgusting, but I had to get myself *re*addicted to the opioids before they'd put me on it. The reason is that, at least according to Them, bupe can't be given unless the person is showing signs of withdrawal.

I started out on a relatively low dose, probably due to the fact that I had already tapered. Was on 16mg/day - it was just enough to keep me Normal. Over several months, I tapered down to 1mg/day, and I feel fine. My shrink is keeping me on it because it blocks the action of other opioids (it binds to the mu opioid receptor about fifty times more strongly than morphine), and it's also a kappa opioid receptor antagonist. That means that it binds to the receptor (in the books, they might call it an "exogenous ligand"), but blocks the action.

That's an interesting thing, as the kappa receptor is generally blamed for things like dysphoria and anxiety. Like many others, I was using because anti-depressants, for the most part, didn't work to treat my depression. The only thing I had ever found that worked were the opioids. Unfortunately, I didn't have the self control to simply self-medicate. I got used to nodding, and learned to love it. That was my bad.

What's *really* interesting about this is some research that's been done at Harvard on using bupe as an anti-depressant. They gave it to a group of people who didn't respond to any of the traditional methods of beating depression (everything from SSRIs to shock therapy). Some people dropped out because they couldn't tolerate the side-effects (opioids aren't for everybody ), but it worked extremely well in others.

The problem is that people around here are uber paranoid about opioids, and patients probably would be, too. There's a stigma attached to opioids that makes them unattractive to the general populous. It's unfortunate, as the things bloody well work, and bupe is easily the best. I don't know about you, but I *like* leading a normal life, and not feeling tied to nodding, euphoria, puking, and passing out. I have a demanding job, and I'm finally able to do it (when I interviewed, I was flying on a cocktail of opioids I had snorted a couple hours prior).

It was hard quitting, but I couldn't be happier that I did. And the bupe *does* seem to work well as an anti-depressant, as well as an anxiolytic. So much so that I was able to quit the benzos (I had been taking them - a lot, I might add - along with my opioids - *REALLY STUPID IDEA*). I'm currently tapering off of my SSRI (Zoloft), and I've been feeling fine.

My shrink was right. I don't need all the pills, powder, and worse.

Oh, and the theory that some have come up with to explain bupe's effectiveness as an anti-depressant is that some people are born with a wider distribution of kappa opioid receptors than others. It's why we're so attracted to the opioids - in a way most people can't understand. In a way, it's almost like being able to see a color no one else can. It's just heaven when one of those little chemicals binds to the mu opioid receptor, and you get a nice Get Out of Hell ticket when they bind to the kappa.

Bupe fixes that. At least it did for me. No depression. No anxiety. No addiction.

While bupe is certainly addictive, it's *very* different from all the other - *full* agonist - opioids I've shoved in my body. At 1mg/day, I'm no longer considered to be an addict. I could actually walk away from this - and have - but I've found that life is smoother and more pleasant while on it. Even though it's such a small amount, it makes a big difference. I certainly don't feel high, I don't have any of the nasty side-effects of full agonist opioids (constipation, puking, etc.).

Rather, I feel *good*. Better than I've ever felt.

Bupe might not be for you, but you should consider it if you really are depressed and have found Vicodin to be a good med with which to treat it. Bupe is a far better alternative.

Talk to your doctor. Get a list of bupe dealers (I mean - doctors) near you.

And don't listen to the people who complain about the naloxone in Suboxone. They'll tell you that they can feel it (naloxone blocks the action of opioids), but it's garbage. There's such a small amount, and it doesn't even enter your bloodstream. It's there as a deterrent to the people who'd shoot it, but even some of them have found the naloxone to be useless. Only the bupe gets in.

I've taken both Subutex (pure bupe) and Suboxone (bupe + naloxone), and there's *NO* difference if you use them correctly.

OK. I'd better stop typing now. Starting to write a book here... [/quote]

[LifeLearner]

I take 7-9 Norco 10/325 a day, not prescribed to me. I want to quit. Called a Dr. about Buprenorphine was told it would cost me $700 cash the first month. I have insurance but they said they'd give me the paperwork and I'd have to file the claims or whatever. Was it like this where you went? Thanks

[rlk]

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Originally Posted by skierneil

Hi..

I am currently taking one and a half pills a day of 7.5 mgs tablets of Vicodin.
This doesn't seem like a large dose, but when I try and stop I feel sad and can't really be myself. I exercise regularly and eat well.
What's the best way to stop in a home environment. I know my dose is not that high, but I know it's still not going to be fun. I'm thinking I should drop a half a pill for three days and be off in 9 days. Thoughts?
Help!

Neil

Neil Frank

Hi, I am going through the same thing as you are. I think you should only take one pill for a few days then try half a pill for a few days, then try none. You are very lucky that this is all you are taking, but if you don't stop now you will see yourself building up a tolerance. Please stop taking these pills, a.s.s.p!! They have almost destroyed my marriage. I just ran out of the hyrdos a few days ago, but I am taking ultram and they seem to help the withdrawal off the narcotics. Good luck!!